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Source: (consider it) Thread: Islam and violence
Golden Key
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# 1468

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And then there are violent Buddhist extremists (Tricycle magazine). They're "Bodu Bala Sena" ("Buddha Power Force").

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by deano:
More of them standing up in courtrooms saying "Yes your honour, I heard them plotting to..." would be a good start.

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Yes, because we all know that plots are invariably hatched in full view of all nearby Muslims, the concept of privacy being alien to that culture.

You are being silly and crass orfeo. It's much more subtle than that. They're a bit like the Borg, so what one knows all the others know, more or less. Even if the surrounding Muslims don't know the exact details they usually can pick up on it, and really there's no excuse for Muslim terrorism going undetected by Muslims. This doesn't work for the white friends or colleagues of terrorists since they aren't part of the Borg.

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
3M Matt, don't want to select a quote from what you wrote, but just want to say it is one of the most sensible posts I have seen on this thread yet, and I hope everybody scrolls back to read it.

The one bit of 3M's post that I wondered about was whether the interpretation of the Bible was assisted all that much be a historical framework. I agree the document is different, but I suspect a lot of the themes in how we interpret our respective documents are similar.

There is a historical framework in the hadith, which many Muslim scholars and clergy spend a long time talking about. Also both groups I suspect rely a lot on tradition in their interpretations - either explicitly codified in some Christian denominations or implicit, shared understandings that we inherit from our church.

I would be interested in knowing what a previously unexposed Muslim's reaction to reading the Bible might be. Perhaps they would be just as perplexed regarding how some of our long narrative accounts could be considered spiritual instruction or how letters written to specific churches which don't claim to be the direct words of God could be useful to us now.

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Martin60
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Kelly re 3M. As in the Beckett chip shop joke, I read it the first time. And yes it's good. A piece of the jig-saw. But cannot change the fact that Christians must respond as Jesus to foundationally violent systems. Starting with their own of course.

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Saul the Apostle
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quote:
Originally posted by 3M Matt:
Is Islam inherently violent?

The bigger question is what is Islam? I don't have a clue. It's like trying to nail jelly to a wall.

Go look at a Quran. The chapters are arranged in order of length. Why? Because there is no more logical order to arrange the material...its a jumble of half written stories and quotes without context.

There is some horrifically violent material in the Quran. There is also some more tolerant stuff.

There is an argument which says the supposedly later revelations superceded the earlier ones. In most cases this would mean the the more violent verses superceded the more peaceful ones.

But not everyone agrees with that. Therein lies the problem. There are disagreements about how to interpret the Bible, but at least we have frameworks of how to approach understanding it. and the Bible sits within a historical context.

None of that is true of the Quran. It is a collection of text which has no context of its own, and sits in a historical void.

Should it be interpreted peacefully or violently? Well, there just isn't a meaningful way to perform exegesis on the Quran.

Perhaps the only guide is to look at how the early followers of Islam, and Mohammed himself, behaved.. That might give a clue.

The problem with that is that the earliest writings about Mohammed and his life date from 200 years after his death.

Some record him being peaceful, some record him being incredibly violent...radical and moderate Islamic scholars will simply cherry pick whichever suits their ends...and dismiss those that don't fit their view.

When Western politicians say that the radicals are "twisting" Islam they are wrong.

There are violent and non violent interpretations of Islam, but it's ancient documents, it's history and it's theology are all so haphazard and unsystematic that it's hard to call any one interpretation of Islam correct or incorrect.

P.s. See Tom Hollands book "in the shadow of the sword" for more on the hazy origins of Islam.

I find this post interesting. I am not sure if the post author could inform us what the term: 'Jihad' fully means in Arabic? There does seem to be some difference of opinion between what some Western (non Arabic speaking commentators) say Jihad is: the inner struggle etc. and the warfare Jihad etc.

Contrast this with the understanding of what Arabic speakers feel the term Jihad is about. I was led to believe the latter would wholly interpret Jihad as holy war or righteous struggle? In other words a disparity of views between West and Arabic speakers possibly?


I'd be interested in the post authors views or other Ship Mates views too.

Saul

[ 21. January 2015, 07:19: Message edited by: Saul the Apostle ]

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orfeo

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Saul, the Wikipedia page on Jihad covers more than adequately the fact that there is disagreement, both inside and outside Islam.

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
More of them standing up in courtrooms saying "Yes your honour, I heard them plotting to..." would be a good start.

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Yes, because we all know that plots are invariably hatched in full view of all nearby Muslims, the concept of privacy being alien to that culture.

You are being silly and crass orfeo. It's much more subtle than that. They're a bit like the Borg, so what one knows all the others know, more or less. Even if the surrounding Muslims don't know the exact details they usually can pick up on it, and really there's no excuse for Muslim terrorism going undetected by Muslims. This doesn't work for the white friends or colleagues of terrorists since they aren't part of the Borg.

Very good point. But in addition, it's well known that some white folk have a special ability to detect what is going on in the Muslim community.

You might consider that this is guesswork - but no! We should consider them to be white (non-Muslim) lightning scourges of God, or WnMLSG, as they are known in Manchester.

We should be thankful that they exist; I believe that this is how the Muslim stronghold of Birmingham was detected, not by rational means, but direct revelation. Europe already feels a safer place because of them.

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mdijon
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True, but I don't think the WnMLSG are all that useful because although as you rightly say they can discern the general problems within the Muslim community through direct revelation, they seem unable to pinpoint the precise culprits. Allah (or the Borg, I lose track) reserves that ability as a test for Muslims only.

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
3M Matt, don't want to select a quote from what you wrote, but just want to say it is one of the most sensible posts I have seen on this thread yet, and I hope everybody scrolls back to read it.

They certainly should, and they should also look carefully at the work by Tom Holland which was for a TV documentary using some far from mainstream historical interpretation.

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
True, but I don't think the WnMLSG are all that useful because although as you rightly say they can discern the general problems within the Muslim community through direct revelation, they seem unable to pinpoint the precise culprits. Allah (or the Borg, I lose track) reserves that ability as a test for Muslims only.

We have the makings of a good enterprise here. The white European knights of the shining path (apparently, they have changed their name), are able to detect that Muslims are shirking their responsibilities, but it's the Islamic Borg who can detect the individuals. All we have to do is join the dots, and we'll have an efficacious Muslim-badness-detection-device, which I'm sure HMG will be interested in; for example, it could be trialed at airports - just point at somebody brown, or with a funny name, and bingo! Muslim badness will show up on the X-ray machine as a sort of dark unpleasant wodge within the body.

I don't want to seem mercenary, but can it be patented, and then sold for a vast sum?

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itsarumdo
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There was an explosives detection device widely in use along the same lines - maybe it wasn't detecting explosives after all?

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Martin60
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If it's all right for Popes to smack friends in the mouth who bad mouth their mothers ...

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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I copyrighted "Muslims are the Borg" as a bumper sticker several years ago. Mousethief can attest to this if I can't find the original post. Hands off my intellectual property.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I copyrighted "Muslims are the Borg" as a bumper sticker several years ago. Mousethief can attest to this if I can't find the original post. Hands off my intellectual property.

I have no idea what you're talking about this side of $50 greasing my palm.

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orfeo

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My recollection is we were going to split the profits.

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mousethief

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Oh, THAT bumper sticker!

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Palimpsest
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# 16772

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I saw this cartoon in the Economist and for some reason I thought of this thread.
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Horseman Bree
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Mudfrog:
quote:
Can anyone tell me what the Christian or Jewish equivalent of these groups is, funded and supported by thousands, millions even, of people?


ISTM that both Tony Blair and George bush the Shrub were identified as "Christian" . They certainly had a lot to do with making the whole region east of the Mediterranean unstable, and gave the impression of attacking the Muslims, while supporting Israel's right to do what it damn well pleased.

Now ask how many Christians are left in the countries of that region. There is some cause-and-effect in all of that, without wishing to go into purely tribal issues.

And there certainly were "millions of followers" in favour of supporting the Iraq war, just as there were "millions of anti-supporters" trying to prevent it

Oddly enough, we haven't heard nearly so much about the Muslim origin of Obama now that he has started his version of "Christian" interference in the Middle East.

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Martin60
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Bliss. But as ever, only to the converted.

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Alt Wally

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It seemed surprising to me that in the wake of the murder of the Jordanian pilot that a debate followed discussing whether or not in Islamic tradition it was legitimate to burn a prisoner to death. The judgment itself to me was even more suprising

Al-Azhar, Sunni Islam’s most prestigious center of learning, has called for the killing and crucifixion of militants from the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS), expressing outrage over their murder of a Jordanian pilot.

In a statement after the burning alive of Moaz al-Kassasbeh, the Cairo-based authority called for the “killing, crucifixion and chopping of the limbs of ISIS terrorists.”

Head of al-Azhar, Sheikh Ahmed al-Tayib, expressed his "strong dismay at this cowardly act".

This "requires the punishment mentioned in the Koran for these corrupt oppressors who fight against God and his prophet: killing, crucifixion or chopping of the limbs."

"Islam forbids killing of the innocent human soul... It forbids mutilating the human soul by burning or in any other way even during wars against an enemy that attacks you," Tayib added in a statement.

ISIS itself has implemented such punishments against its own members for robbery at checkpoints or stealing funds from religious endowments in territories controlled by the group in Iraq and Syria.


That was on Al Arabiya and similarly reported elsewhere. That opinion is not not from a fringe group. There is something wrong.

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orfeo

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# 13878

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They believe in capital punishment.

Unlike the United States of America and the Bible Belt in particular, they don't pretend this isn't cruel.

[ 05. February 2015, 00:32: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Dave W.
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# 8765

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
They believe in capital punishment.

Unlike the United States of America and the Bible Belt in particular, they don't pretend this isn't cruel.

Who are "they"? ISIS, Islamic scholars, or someone else? And what indicates "they don't pretend this isn't cruel"?

I suspect people who believe in capital punishment tend to think of it as "just", not "cruel."

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Unlike the United States of America and the Bible Belt in particular, they don't pretend this isn't cruel.

It's certainly possible to kill people in a painless fashion. The Dutch seem to manage it with their legal euthanasia.

There is an obvious difference between killing someone painlessly and killing them in excruciating agony. To the extent that US executions are not painless, this is regrettable.

If capital punishment is de facto cruel (which I would dispute - I think capital punishment is wrong, but not in and of itself cruel) then all forms of execution are cruel.

If capital punishment is not de facto cruel, some methods of execution (eg. that cause extended pain and suffering) can still be cruel.

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orfeo

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# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Unlike the United States of America and the Bible Belt in particular, they don't pretend this isn't cruel.

It's certainly possible to kill people in a painless fashion. The Dutch seem to manage it with their legal euthanasia.
Euthanasia is about people choosing to die. Which means that options that allow a person to drift off slowly are viable, because they won't be resisting.

I find the notion that it's somehow possible to take someone's life against their will, and for them to know that that is what you're doing, and yet for it somehow not to involve suffering a quite bizarre position. The psychological suffering alone is enormous.

Basically, most of the extensive American discussion is about making the process not physically painful, and time and time again a process of execution is abandonded when it's discovered that actually, it's capable of being painful.

OF COURSE IT IS. Why on earth would ANY process that is explicitly designed to stop the body from working not evoke the body's warning system for danger? Asking for something not to be painful is basically asking the nervous system "please don't do your job and alert your owner to the danger - especially when they're already primed for the danger".

The only way you're going to prevent a pain response is to put a bullet in the brain at point blank range so that there's no time for a pain response. And the psychological response is still going to be there.

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orfeo

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# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
I suspect people who believe in capital punishment tend to think of it as "just", not "cruel."

I don't have to agree with them.

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Dave W.
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# 8765

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
I suspect people who believe in capital punishment tend to think of it as "just", not "cruel."

I don't have to agree with them.
Well, no. But you suggested there are people who believe in the death penalty, but (unlike some Americans) "don't pretend this isn't cruel."

I'd still like to know who "they" are, and why you say they think it really is cruel (or at least don't pretend it isn't.) I'd be surprised (and interested) to hear of people who describe as cruel a punishment of which they approve.

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

OF COURSE IT IS. Why on earth would ANY process that is explicitly designed to stop the body from working not evoke the body's warning system for danger? Asking for something not to be painful is basically asking the nervous system "please don't do your job and alert your owner to the danger - especially when they're already primed for the danger".

The body doesn't know whether it's being executed or euthanized. There's no reason for the sensation of physical pain to be different in the two cases. You can't choose to resist anaesthesia.

If you were going to kill me and offered me the choice between the Dutch euthanasia protocol or being burned alive, I can assure you I would have no difficulty in making a choice.

I suppose I might refuse to choose out of a desire to not cooperate with my death, but I am not under any illusions that I would experience similar amounts of pain in the two cases.

And psychological pain? Well, sure, most people don't want to be executed, but most people don't want to be jailed for life either. I will note that a number of convicted criminals have explicitly asked to be killed, presumably because they find the psychological pain of remaining alive but jailed to be greater, or possibly because they can't cope with the pain and remorse of living with their crime. Others prefer to live in jail. So I don't think your assessment of the psychological pain involved is necessarily accurate.

[ 05. February 2015, 12:50: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]

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orfeo

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# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
I'd still like to know who "they" are, and why you say they think it really is cruel (or at least don't pretend it isn't.)

The people quoted in the post above mine. I thought that was obvious.

And well, if you want to mount an argument that crucifixion and chopping off limbs isn't intentionally designed to be unpleasant, be my guest. My point was that they're not trying to make execution nice in the way that the USA does, not trying to suggest that being killed as punishment is somehow compatible with dying with dignity.

[ 05. February 2015, 14:16: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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orfeo

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# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
The body doesn't know whether it's being executed or euthanized. There's no reason for the sensation of physical pain to be different in the two cases.

This shows a complete lack of awareness about neuroscience and how pain is experienced. It is not at all true that the same physical stimulation creates the same response no matter what. Your emotional and hormonal state makes an enormous difference. You can get everything from people who feel nothing because they're pumped on adrenaline through to chronic pain syndrome where touches that are innocuous to most people are painful.

quote:
And psychological pain? Well, sure, most people don't want to be executed, but most people don't want to be jailed for life either.
And most kids don't want to eat their broccoli, and most adults don't want to complete their tax return. We're talking about basic survival instinct here.

And yes, SOME prisoners with no prospect of release want to die, just as SOME people want to be euthanased. This is hardly the benchmark for everybody else, though.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Alt Wally

Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245

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My point was that they're not trying to make execution nice in the way that the USA does

Should we think better of this particular clerics' advocacy of revenge killing and torture then? I am confused by the intention of your comparison.

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orfeo

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# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
My point was that they're not trying to make execution nice in the way that the USA does

Should we think better of this particular clerics' advocacy of revenge killing and torture then? I am confused by the intention of your comparison.

The intention of my comparison, as with many of the comparisons on this thread, is to say there's nothing particularly "Islamic" about killing people as punishment.

I don't know if you're familiar with the TV show 'Rectify', but in a brief scene recently it depicted people in favour of the death penalty standing outside a prison with Bible verses written on their placards. I've seen similar depictions enough times to suspect that the movies and TV shows aren't making this up.

I'm not suggesting anyone think better of the call for revenge killing. I'm suggesting that it's about time people recognised that calls for revenge killing are made in the name of Jesus Christ and think just as badly of that, instead of going "oh my goodness, look at those awful Muslims and what they do". Look at what WE do.

[ 05. February 2015, 22:29: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It is not at all true that the same physical stimulation creates the same response no matter what. Your emotional and hormonal state makes an enormous difference.

Well, OK. I was imagining that by the time a prisoner actually reached execution they'd be resigned to it, and so in a similar mental state to the euthanasia "patient". Maybe I'm wrong, and
prisoners go to their execution in a state of panic, and maybe they have the right kind of panic to accentuate any pain, rather than dull it with adrenaline.

But my understanding is that all the cases (and there have been several) of condemned prisoners visibly experiencing pain, or having an execution that takes hours or whatever, are due to failures of the process - the drugs have been injected intramuscularly rather than IV, the doses have not been calculated properly for the individual, anaesthesia has not been verified before moving on to the second stage drug.

That's a process error, not a conceptual error.

quote:
And yes, SOME prisoners with no prospect of release want to die, just as SOME people want to be euthanased. This is hardly the benchmark for everybody else, though.
If the question is whether execution is de facto "cruel", then surely it is exactly the benchmark. If the choice is between execution and life imprisonment, and some people who are in that position would prefer prison but others would prefer execution, that's some of the actual relevant people who would consider execution as less cruel. And surely we have to use the victim of the potential cruelty as the benchmark?

[I'm still opposed to capital punishment as a concept,but not because it's "cruel".]

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orfeo

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# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
But my understanding is that all the cases (and there have been several) of condemned prisoners visibly experiencing pain, or having an execution that takes hours or whatever, are due to failures of the process - the drugs have been injected intramuscularly rather than IV, the doses have not been calculated properly for the individual, anaesthesia has not been verified before moving on to the second stage drug.

That's a process error, not a conceptual error.

Emphasis added on 'visibly'.

Recent research has suggested that one of the drugs used in lethal injection doesn't stop the prisoner experiencing pain at all. It just paralyses them so they can't show it.

That's the thing about killing people. You can't really ask them afterwards, what was that like?

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

That's the thing about killing people. You can't really ask them afterwards, what was that like?

No, but we do know that we can anaesthetize people, cut them open, remove some bits, add some more bits, have a good rummage around, then close them up again, and (as long as the anaesthesiologist has kept the patient under), they don't tell you they've felt pain during the operation. The wound hurts afterwards, of course, but that's different.

That's pretty good evidence that people under anaesthesia are not conscious of pain. If you don't anaesthetize them properly, and then you inject the paralyzing drug then I think you're right - you'll get a person in pain who can't respond, but that's the process error - you're not ensuring adequate anaesthesia.

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Dave W.
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# 8765

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
I'd still like to know who "they" are, and why you say they think it really is cruel (or at least don't pretend it isn't.)

The people quoted in the post above mine. I thought that was obvious.
Could have been the people quoted, could have been the people they were talking about. Hence the question.
quote:
And well, if you want to mount an argument that crucifixion and chopping off limbs isn't intentionally designed to be unpleasant, be my guest.

Most punishments are designed to be unpleasant, aren't they? That doesn't mean they're cruel.
quote:
My point was that they're not trying to make execution nice in the way that the USA does, not trying to suggest that being killed as punishment is somehow compatible with dying with dignity.

Who in the US, exactly, do you think believes that the death penalty has, or should have, anything to do with niceness or dying with dignity? Supporters would probably say it's about justice, and opponents would probably agree with you. Neither side thinks it's "nice", and neither side thinks it gives the condemned "dying with dignity."

But let me ask you about Australian views (which may possibly be more familiar to you than those of Americans.) If the large number of Australians who support the death penalty in at least some cases (a majority, in this poll) were to get their way, do you think they'd be as namby-pamby as you portray Americans, or would they have the courage of their convictions and go for crucifixion, beheading, and immolation?

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orfeo

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# 13878

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I think they'd be every bit as namby-pamby about it.
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orfeo

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# 13878

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Might I add, many Westerners aren't prepared to face up to how beef, lamb and pork end up on their dinner table, let alone the realities of killing a human being.

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Matt Black

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# 2210

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I wonder what Shipmates make of this quote from Franklin Graham which is doing the rounds on Facebook this morning:

quote:
Today at the National Prayer Breakfast, the President implied that what ISIS is doing is equivalent to what happened over 1000 years ago during the Crusades and the Inquisition. Mr. President--Many people in history have used the name of Jesus Christ to accomplish evil things for their own desires. But Jesus taught peace, love and forgiveness. He came to give His life for the sins of mankind, not to take life. Mohammad on the contrary was a warrior and killed many innocent people. True followers of Christ emulate Christ—true followers of Mohammed emulate Mohammed.



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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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A deeply cynical comment by a very unpleasant person.

He is wrong on so many levels - not least that Muslims are not supposed to emulate the Prophet, but to submit themselves to Allah.

On Obama, he is quoted as saying:

quote:
"I think the president's problem is that he was born a Muslim, his father was a Muslim. The seed of Islam is passed through the father like the seed of Judaism is passed through the mother. He was born a Muslim, his father gave him an Islamic name."
I think we can discount everything that comes out of his mouth as the ravings of a fruitcake.

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arse

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I wonder what Shipmates make of this quote from Franklin Graham which is doing the rounds on Facebook this morning:

quote:
Today at the National Prayer Breakfast, the President implied that what ISIS is doing is equivalent to what happened over 1000 years ago during the Crusades and the Inquisition. Mr. President--Many people in history have used the name of Jesus Christ to accomplish evil things for their own desires. But Jesus taught peace, love and forgiveness. He came to give His life for the sins of mankind, not to take life. Mohammad on the contrary was a warrior and killed many innocent people. True followers of Christ emulate Christ—true followers of Mohammed emulate Mohammed.


I'd start by pointing out that it's up to Muslims to define what Islam is, and whether it's about emulating Mohammed. Secondly, I'd question whether he's likely to be consistent and point to Jesus' example when faced with questions like eternal torment in Hell and the Joshua genocides; indeed the fact that there are some parts of the OT that read like a formative document for IS, and be willing to say that they are not representative of the will of God.

[ 06. February 2015, 11:13: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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So Mr Graham would argue that those Christians who used to burn people were going against the spirit of Jesus? Then presumably, Muslims can make the same argument. Ah, but Mr Graham might tell them that they are wrong, since he knows better than them what Islam really means!

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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Here's a report of the National Prayer Breakfast. President Obama wanted to use this to condemn the use of religion as a pretext for violence, but sadly there are those who want to twist his statement to justify division between peaceful people of different faiths and none.

I'd rather not consider what Jesus makes of this.

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Alt Wally

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# 3245

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I don't know if you're familiar with the TV show 'Rectify', but in a brief scene recently it depicted people in favour of the death penalty standing outside a prison with Bible verses written on their placards. I've seen similar depictions enough times to suspect that the movies and TV shows aren't making this up.

I have not seen that, but don't doubt the veracity of the depiction. I also do not equate the actions or statements of those individuals (disagree with them as I may) as being of the same gravity or impact as the call of the head cleric of a respected, influential and mainstream Islamic religious institution for medieval style revenge killings "an eye for an eye".

I also do not believe the presence of problems/evils/issues in the West should lead us to self censor as you suggest (or couch every criticism with a "whatabout"). Introspection and self-criticism are alive here. The topic of capital punishment is probably a good example.

There appears to be a religious root to the violence in the Islamic world, especially in intra-Islamic violence. Nothing I have read in the thread is telling me otherwise. That seems like fair game for critical discussion, and should not be stifled through self induced silence or through the threat of intimidation.

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orfeo

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# 13878

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There's nothing wrong with criticism. The problem that I and many others have is that the criticism is so frequently selective and biased.

There's a word for criticising in others what you do yourself. It's hypocrisy. And frankly, the "Christian" world is often deeply hypocritical in its criticisms of Islam.

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mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
# 15978

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quote:
Al-Azhar, Sunni Islam’s most prestigious center of learning...
(and the people behind a few 'Muslim apostates must die' rulings, if I remember rightly)

quote:
... has called for the killing and crucifixion of militants from the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS), expressing outrage over their murder of a Jordanian pilot.

This "requires the punishment mentioned in the Koran for these corrupt oppressors who fight against God and his prophet: killing, crucifixion or chopping of the limbs."

It surprised me that no-one has picked up on the 'daddy used to beat me, and now I'm going to kick the shit out of you' angle on all this.

It's almost Onion-esque - "Islamic court rules acts of extreme violence in name of Islam deserve retribution in the form of extreme violence".

I know, I know. Back to discussing Iraq war and US judicial killings.

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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)

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Alt Wally

Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
There's a word for criticising in others what you do yourself. It's hypocrisy. And frankly, the "Christian" world is often deeply hypocritical in its criticisms of Islam.

That likely cuts both ways. I don’t think that’s an end to the discussion of where the violence stems from though.

I just happened to be reading V.S. Naipaul’s 1979 chronicle of Iran, Pakistan, Malaysia and Indonesia - Among the Believers . When talking about the erosion of existing tolerant Islam in Indonesia in favor of modern Fundamentalist thinking (what he terms “Malaysian disease”), he says this to quote from the text

quote:
The Islam that was coming to the villages — brushed with new and borrowed ideas about the wickedness of the machine, the misuse of foreign aid—was the Islam that in the late twentiethcentury had rediscovered its political roots. The Prophet had founded a state. He had given men the idea of equality and union. The dynastic quarrels that had come early to this state had entered the theology of the religion; so that this religion, which filled men's days with rituals and ceremonies of worship, which preached the afterlife, at the same time gave men the sharpest sense of worldly injustice and made that part of religion.

This late-twentieth-century Islam appeared to raise political issues. But it had the flaw of its origins — the flaw that ran right through Islamic history: to the political issues it raised it offered nopolitical or practical solution. It offered only the faith. It offered only the Prophet, who would settle everything—but who had ceased to exist. This political Islam was rage, anarchy.

The themes he builds on as I read them are that the complexities of modern life and a feeling of inferiority when facing the West have created a movement to fall back on “simple” Islam with clear rules and guidelines. This movement decries the hollowness of the West and trumpets its imminent decline. While doing this however, there is a hypocritical acceptance or reliance on Western technology or the openness of its society as it benefits the believers (examples such as the Pakistani cleric who led a lifelong battle against the evils of the West only to end his life in a hospital in Buffalo when he needed the care provided there or the overall remittance economy that Pakistan relies on to sustain itself). There is always a desire to look for the “good man” who will lead the faithful and regenerate the community, but another of Naipaul’s themes is that of the redeemer (the good man) who unleashes chaos. Iran is an example and he interviews the cleric who ordered thousands of summary executions after the Revolution. He seems to believe the countries he visited in particular are susceptible to outbreaks of chaos and nihilism (and that these are easy to slip in to) because they have completely rejected the cultures and civilizations that preceded the acceptance of Islam. I think the end result he sees is basically a movement without a mind. The result is rage and anarchy as he states.

[ 08. February 2015, 19:43: Message edited by: Alt Wally ]

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Martin60
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# 368

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That's trickle down for you.

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Highfive
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# 12937

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I quite like this Time article's take on it:
Why Obama Was Only Half Right to Call Out Christianity Over Jim Crow

(Slightly OT - It's worth noting what's happening with the government of Tunisia)

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:
I quite like this Time article's take on it:
Why Obama Was Only Half Right to Call Out Christianity Over Jim Crow

(Slightly OT - It's worth noting what's happening with the government of Tunisia)

The article is exactly pointless. Obama said Christianity has been used to justify ill, not that it was exclusively so used. The audience he was addressing do not need the "counterbalancing" good part of the story because they believe that anyway.

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Hallellou, hallellou

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Honest Ron Bacardi
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# 38

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Alt Wally wrote:
quote:
That likely cuts both ways. I don’t think that’s an end to the discussion of where the violence stems from though.
Well, indeed. In fact if you scroll back there was some discussion about what people thought actually were the sources of violence. The thing is that the OP specifically asked "Is Islam intrinsically violent?" and the answer "no" is directed at that. I don't think it's a particularly worthwhile question, honestly. It invites a yes/no response.

I wasn't aware of V.S. Naipaul's writings on the subject. But on the extract you quoted, I think I would have one disagreement. I don't think that the rage of the fundamentalists is nihilistic from within their own framework (though it certainly is from within ours). They see themselves as returning to a pure state of earliest Islam, where jihad is constantly waged, and which history shows as the time of explosive expansion.

It neatly sidesteps all the subsequent schools of Islamic scholarship which seek to explain who or what the jihad was actually being waged against in each instance, but I'm sure that along with other fundamentalisms, they would regard such scholarship as questionable at best, and possibly treasonable.

However, jihad and their understanding of it is clearly one of the keys to their thinking.

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