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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Going through the motions for school admission
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
<snip> as BroJames has said (twice now), this is not really much of a problem outside London<snip>
Other urban areas are also available (and experience this kind of problem).
Fairly rural around here, but still have this problem, at least with secondaries.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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kankucho
Shipmate
# 14318
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by toadstrike:
...The school publishes on its website that it has a strict order for allocating places and the top priority is given to parents who "attend church at least twice a month or more and play a full part in the life of the church"
If that's the exact phrase they use on the website, I'd be very reluctant to put them in charge of my child's education in English grammar.
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"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself" – Dr. Carl Sagan
Kankucho Bird Blues
Posts: 1262 | From: Kuon-ganjo, E17 | Registered: Nov 2008
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
The CofE school my sons attended (in rural Creamtealand) was oversubscribed - the criteria were only really biased towards church attenders for those living outside the catchment area. There was always room for those living inside as long as they didn't apply at the very last minute.
That particular school tried to appoint practising Christians to the staff if at all possible - as they usually had many people apply, that was not normally difficult to achieve.
In recent years, some non-Christian parents actively didn't want their child to attend a CofE school, as they feared them being brainwashed. So sent them to a popular county primary in a nearby village. Thus freeing up extra spaces for those who really wanted to attend the CofE school.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Wild Organist
Apprentice
# 12631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
...
Alternatively, the church would suddenly be full, but every parent there would be there just to fulfil the school's criteria.
As a Wild Organist, I wander through rural and suburban and city centre churches. The one that sticks in my mind in this discussion is the suburban one which has a school and a "family service". The former is excellent, the latter is crammed with parents of little Damiens and Carries whose parents are never seen again once little D or C has got in. The other four or five services each month get about 20% of the congregation of the FS and are much more pleasant to play for.
This is not a deprived area - I can't afford to live there, only 4 miles from home as it is - and I have no children, so no axe to grind. But my instinct says this is wrong. These parents are lying when they profess the faith, say the Creed. The church should not encourage this because of fecundity. Ok, what's the solution?
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Be very careful what you wish for. You might just get it.
Posts: 50 | From: West Sussex | Registered: May 2007
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
If our village CofE school required evidence of attendance at the parish church it would have precisely zero children, at least since we moved our church attendance elsewhere. I am not exaggerating.
Alternatively, the church would suddenly be full, but every parent there would be there just to fulfil the school's criteria.
It is amazing how oversubscription to a very popular school gets the bums on seats!
Whilst the schools I'm thinking of were rurally located - and there were perfectly respectable alternatives within short-car-driving distance - many people wanted the convenience of their 'own' village school, as well as that much vaunted CofE ethos-thing. A parish with a church school without these problems is an enviable thing!
I used to wonder inwardly why non-churchgoing parents would want to, in a sense, compromise their agnostic/atheist principles, give up their Sunday morning etc, just to get little Penelope into St Penguin's. But some parents are very motivated to do what they consider to be the best thing for their children, by way of getting, apparently, the best local education. So long as I wasn't being expected to put my signature to a lie, I tried not to judge. It's just such a relief not to have to play those games any more.
To be fair to the congregations I'm talking about, I can't recall any of these parents being particularly identifiable as monsters of depravity. Brazen chancers, some of them, perhaps. But I know, too, that more than a few of our families were genuine worshippers in that they would've been there regardless. But even for the folks who were there solely to qualify for school places; frankly, their motivations were hardly more Herod-like than some other motivations I can think of for church-attendance. Dammit, I even know some people who only get up on a Sunday morning and go along to church because they've been paid to <ahem>!
The issue of unfairness to other potentially qualifying families who are regular church people is, perhaps, the real crux of the matter. To gain advantages by attempting to claim you're something you're not, is hardly a great lesson for your kid. Though someone might argue that if the kid is actually the chief beneficiary, that's justifiable. It's a shame it's just so messy at times.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wild Organist:
These parents are lying when they profess the faith, say the Creed. The church should not encourage this because of fecundity. Ok, what's the solution?
Oh no! Naughty people going to church! Quick, panic! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I know what you're saying. Explicit insincerity is not pleasant, and at worst is a mockery of holy things.
But, here's the thing. Lots of people in church are lying - to some degree, and at some stage in their lives - when they profess the faith, say the Creed. Lots of people in church are lying when they say the Lord's Prayer, share the Peace, take communion blah-de-blah. Why stop with parents? At least if they're in church, they might hear something that tells them why they shouldn't lie - or is that something God would rather not happen?
I do agree with you, however, that the church shouldn't encourage it. That's why I, for one, and many, many colleagues get so royally peed off with schools sloughing off their responsibility for admissions onto parish clergy in the way that so often happens.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Perhaps the CofE school motto should be Mark 9:24 "And straightway the father of the child crying out with tears, said, Lord, I believe; help thou my unbelief."
Unless the parent of a child at the school, suffering from a temporary - or permanent - loss of belief, actually takes their child out of the school, thus giving up their place to someone else, then they should never judge those who have trouble believing in the first place. Perhaps.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wild Organist:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
...
Alternatively, the church would suddenly be full, but every parent there would be there just to fulfil the school's criteria.
As a Wild Organist, I wander through rural and suburban and city centre churches. The one that sticks in my mind in this discussion is the suburban one which has a school and a "family service". The former is excellent, the latter is crammed with parents of little Damiens and Carries whose parents are never seen again once little D or C has got in. The other four or five services each month get about 20% of the congregation of the FS and are much more pleasant to play for.
This is not a deprived area - I can't afford to live there, only 4 miles from home as it is - and I have no children, so no axe to grind. But my instinct says this is wrong. These parents are lying when they profess the faith, say the Creed. The church should not encourage this because of fecundity. Ok, what's the solution?
Improve the education system so that access to a “good” school doesn’t depend on where you live, worship or the depth of your pockets.
If every school was of a decent standard, then parents wouldn’t be having a meltdown at the thought of Mungo having to go to St Midge's (special measures) rather than St Mary’s (Good with Outstanding Features). And they wouldn’t be willing to do whatever it takes to improve the odds.
Tubbs
[ 23. January 2015, 15:36: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
But surely St. Midge's is a church school too?
(Mind you, we have in our town a St. Helen's School which isn't a church school. This causes quite a bit of confusion).
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Higgs Bosun
Shipmate
# 16582
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Posted
There are three primary schools within about half a mile of my house, two are Church of England Voluntary Aided schools (named after the parish in which they are sited), and the other a regular local authority governed school.
The last used to be until very recently an infants school, which fed into one of the Church schools which was a junior school, each with three form entry. Both became two form entry primary schools.
The admissions policies for the schools are online. The policy for a voluntary aided church school is set by the governers, while that for the other is set by the local authority. They have similarities and differences.
In all cases policies on who can come only apply if there is over-subscription, i.e. there are more applicants than places (30 per class). So, it is not true to say that there is exclusion, no-one is prevented from applying. The schools all have a priority order.
In first place all of them have children who are or who have been 'looked after', which means children who are in care, or for whom accomodation has been provided by the local authority as the result of its social care responsibilities.
In second place each of the schools next considers those children with 'exceptional needs', which means the school is the best. There are some variations here: one church school only considers medical needs, the other considers medical and/or social needs, while the non-church school includes educational needs.
For the church schools, but not the non-church school, next to be considered are those with a sibling at the school.
Then the church schools consider 'foundation places', which is the first point where any faith association is considered. One school has 24 such places (out of a total entry of 90), and eligiblity is based on the child being baptised or dedicated, and either (at least one) parent attending the parish church of the school regularly (twice a month), or who live in the geographical parish, or two neighbouring parishes, and attend regularly another Christian church.
The other church school has 6 foundation places (out of a yearly entry of 60). These places are allocated to those children whose parent(s) are active members of either the parish church or another local Christian church. If these places are oversubscribed, then members of the local parish church take priority.
In last place for all schools comes geographical proximity. One of the schools specifies in detail how the distance from the home to the school is calculated. This is probably evidence of a lot of pushy parents arguing over matters of a few metres.
The policies for the schools refer to their ethos.
quote:
Governors hope that parents who have chosen this school for their child have done so
with the knowledge that it is a Church of England school with a distinctive Christian ethos. Governors, therefore, expect parents to give their full support to the ethos of the school.
quote:
The underlying ethos of the school
is Christian but it is a church school for the whole community and it welcomes applications for pupils of other faiths or no faith.
Sorry for the long post, but I think it is interesting to see some actual admission policies for church schools.
Posts: 313 | From: Near the Tidal Thames | Registered: Aug 2011
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
But surely St. Midge's is a church school too?
(Mind you, we have in our town a St. Helen's School which isn't a church school. This causes quite a bit of confusion).
But it's not a good one so the parents don't want Mungo to go there. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) Darn, as you spotted it, I can't edit the St out.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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toadstrike
Apprentice
# 18244
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Posted
To answer a previous point where I had put a very abbreviated version of the school requirements, here is the full text of the requirements (in addtion to baptism certificate) which I have cut and pasted from the school website.
quote:
For the purpose of criterion 3, a child will be deemed to have parent(s) who are extensively involved in the work and worship of the nominated church if one or both parent(s) meet
all of the following requirements:
(i) Confirmed in the Church of England or a Church in Communion with the Church of England; or, being confirmed in another episcopal church, formally received into the communion of the Church of England, and
(ii)
On the Electoral Roll of one of the churches set out in criterion 3, or an ordained
minister of the Church of England licensed to or permitted to officiate in one of the
four parishes, and
(iii)
Frequent attendance at Sunday worship (at least twice per month) for at least the past two years, and
(iv)
If a lay person, regular and sustained contribution through one of the following
unpaid roles in the nominated church: Licensed Reader, PCC member,
Youth/children’s Leader, Musical Co-ordinator, PCC sub-committee member,
choir/music group member, pastoral team member, altar server.
I think the last bit is a pretty tall order and they'll have to get motoring!
[ 24. January 2015, 09:43: Message edited by: toadstrike ]
Posts: 24 | From: Welwyn Garden City, UK | Registered: Oct 2014
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Yes, that last criterion rather excludes those who feel that the best way they exercise their Christian commitment is in their work or some other sort of social engagement. What if the sort of commitment they give to being a doctor or a teacher doesn't leave them much time or spare energy to sing or be on one of the innumerable committees the average church manages to generate?
Worse, the list is not phrased 'such as'. The list of approved and recognised activities seems to be exclusive. No good if mother does the flowers or father digs graves for free. Or in these modern non-sexist days, vice versa. They don't count.
[ 24. January 2015, 10:54: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
toadstrike--
Hi, and welcome to the Ship!
Those rules sound like the preference program is basically for children of church staff, paid or not. (How in the world do they check church attendance??)
I initially thought, from my understanding of the OP, that the parents would simply have to go to church, and get heavily involved in some way. That they wouldn't have to actually profess belief. And, as others pointed out, church involvement might be to their spiritual benefit, from an evangelistic point of view. So I wasn't too worried about it--just concerned about the difficulties of getting into a good school.
But, looking at the rules, they'd have to be *seriously* dishonest, because they'd have to get confirmed. And you mentioned a baptismal certificate. If that's for the child, things could get complicated. OTOH, if the church believes that baptism is necessary for salvation, then that could be another good thing coming out of the situation.
ISTM that these are loving parents who want a good education for their kid, and don't have many options. As great as the school may be, is it really worth going through all that? And the possible consequences and ripple effects? How will they feel if the child chooses to be a Christian? Or if one of *them* does?
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
I have no issue with CoE-run schools. As to how they are Christian if they have mostly non-Christian pupils or even teachers, they are serving non-Christians and sharing the faith with them, and thus living out the Gospel far more than restricting intake to Anglicans.
That's one of my questions. How are they sharing the faith and living out the Gospel if they don't actually have the faith?
We've had lots of discussions here about corporations not having religion (with reference to Hobby Lobby and so on).
Sure - if what you have is a majority Christian community with some pupils of other faiths or no faith, it's easy to see the school as Christians sharing the faith.
But if most of the pupils and most of the teachers aren't Christian, I don't see how that works. The people supposedly "sharing the faith" don't have one.
Is there really anything that sets such a school apart from a secular school, apart from the fact that it is named after a saint and has the vicar on the board of governors? In what way does a school staffed and populated mostly by non-Christians have a "Christian Ethos"?
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by toadstrike:
(iv)
If a lay person, regular and sustained contribution through one of the following
unpaid roles in the nominated church: Licensed Reader, PCC member,
Youth/children’s Leader, Musical Co-ordinator, PCC sub-committee member,
choir/music group member, pastoral team member, altar server.
I think the last bit is a pretty tall order and they'll have to get motoring! [/QUOTE]
This was the kind of criteria we had to contend with. Quite literally, so many points were alotted for each item: ie, 5 points for PCC member, 5 points for being c/warden, 5 points for leading Brownies or Cubs etc. And then the family had to get over, say, 45 points altogether to qualify for a school place. I wouldn't've believed it, if I hadn't seen it for myself.
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Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
And if you've only got one parent that cuts the number of people capable of gathering points by half and if that parent has to work long or irregular hours in a low paying job (and possibly on Sundays) the time for gathering those points goes down. I wonder how much fudging goes on to allow children that look most likely to reflect glory on the school in and those that might be trouble out.
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
To be fair, the real heart-searching was about which kids were likely to benefit most from attending that particular school. It is possible some clergy might've been thinking 'I should fudge this application so this little Einstein can attend St Penguin's and shine reflected glory on the school'. But the biggest difficulty I recall self and colleagues having to live with was knowing that whatever strategy - fair or unfair - the parent was playing, at the heart of it was a child who deserved attendance at a decent school, and whose potential happiness, short and long-term, could depend on a signature of an application. Whatever the admissions boards of these schools might've gotten up to, it was sometimes the parish people who had to cope with the fall-out.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
And what happens in the case where one parent is a believer and the other isn't? The whole situation isn't as neat and clear cut as you would think from some of the assertions.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Since the faith secondary schools are in areas where housing is expensive ...
I wonder why this is? ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
But the biggest difficulty I recall self and colleagues having to live with was knowing that whatever strategy - fair or unfair - the parent was playing, at the heart of it was a child who deserved attendance at a decent school, and whose potential happiness, short and long-term, could depend on a signature of an application.
But at the same time, another child with less-pushy parents (or less hypocritical ones) would be deprived of a place.
The only answer is, abolish faith schools, or ensure that they operate an open admissions policy. To be fair, many church schools in rural areas and elsewhere, where it is the only or default school, do just that.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
There is also an implicit if unintentional bias towards High Church Anglicanism.
From the context of the rest of your post, you appear to mean 'large and flourishing suburban churches with many activities and opportunities for involvement.' Which these days tends to mean evangelical more often than not. 'High' churches tend to have small and struggling congregations and in fact fit your definition of 'low church'.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
quote:
For the purpose of criterion 3, a child will be deemed to have parent(s) who are extensively involved in the work and worship of the nominated church if one or both parent(s) meet all of the following requirements:
- Confirmed in the Church of England or a Church in Communion with the Church of England; or, being confirmed in another episcopal church, formally received into the communion of the Church of England, and
- On the Electoral Roll of one of the churches set out in criterion 3, or an ordained minister of the Church of England licensed to or permitted to officiate in one of the four parishes, and
- Frequent attendance at Sunday worship (at least twice per month) for at least the past two years, and
- If a lay person, regular and sustained contribution through one of the following unpaid roles in the nominated church: Licensed Reader, PCC member, Youth/children’s Leader, Musical Co-ordinator, PCC sub-committee member, choir/music group member, pastoral team member, altar server.
As a parent, I ticked all the boxes on this list - PCC member for a full term and Sunday school leader for 5 years. What I couldn't make was the requirement for the good local faith school which was 10 years of weekly attendance. Mostly because I'd spent some of that ten years in rural parishes when there were no appropriate weekly services to take a 3 year old to - 8am 1662 one week a month, for example.
That local school is a Jewish foundation school and is what fills several of the local churches with parents determined to avoid the school my daughter did attend. She ended up at the VC CofE school, which was the one everyone avoided as it was dodging in and out of special measures at the time, for very good reason.
[ 25. January 2015, 23:26: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
I have no issue with CoE-run schools. As to how they are Christian if they have mostly non-Christian pupils or even teachers, they are serving non-Christians and sharing the faith with them, and thus living out the Gospel far more than restricting intake to Anglicans.
That's one of my questions. How are they sharing the faith and living out the Gospel if they don't actually have the faith?
We've had lots of discussions here about corporations not having religion (with reference to Hobby Lobby and so on).
Sure - if what you have is a majority Christian community with some pupils of other faiths or no faith, it's easy to see the school as Christians sharing the faith.
But if most of the pupils and most of the teachers aren't Christian, I don't see how that works. The people supposedly "sharing the faith" don't have one.
Is there really anything that sets such a school apart from a secular school, apart from the fact that it is named after a saint and has the vicar on the board of governors? In what way does a school staffed and populated mostly by non-Christians have a "Christian Ethos"?
A school isn't just comprised of pupils and teachers. In a church school's case, there will be links with one or more local churches, plus Christian governors, clergy on the board of governors etc etc.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
There is also an implicit if unintentional bias towards High Church Anglicanism.
From the context of the rest of your post, you appear to mean 'large and flourishing suburban churches with many activities and opportunities for involvement.' Which these days tends to mean evangelical more often than not. 'High' churches tend to have small and struggling congregations and in fact fit your definition of 'low church'.
I wonder how much churchgoing for the sake of school places happens at evangelical CofE churches. I have a feeling that the two agendas wouldn't work very well together, but I could be wrong.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
There is also an implicit if unintentional bias towards High Church Anglicanism.
From the context of the rest of your post, you appear to mean 'large and flourishing suburban churches with many activities and opportunities for involvement.' Which these days tends to mean evangelical more often than not. 'High' churches tend to have small and struggling congregations and in fact fit your definition of 'low church'.
I wonder how much churchgoing for the sake of school places happens at evangelical CofE churches. I have a feeling that the two agendas wouldn't work very well together, but I could be wrong.
Based on my experience, you are. One of my previous churches was a large, evangelical Anglican and there were people who attended because it was attached to a very good school.
The attitude of the clergy and staff was that it gave them an opportunity to build relationships with people and expose them to Christianity. The rest was up to God! A lot came to faith, but there were some who disappeared once the kids had started secondary school.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
There is also an implicit if unintentional bias towards High Church Anglicanism.
From the context of the rest of your post, you appear to mean 'large and flourishing suburban churches with many activities and opportunities for involvement.' Which these days tends to mean evangelical more often than not. 'High' churches tend to have small and struggling congregations and in fact fit your definition of 'low church'.
I wonder how much churchgoing for the sake of school places happens at evangelical CofE churches. I have a feeling that the two agendas wouldn't work very well together, but I could be wrong.
Based on my experience, you are. One of my previous churches was a large, evangelical Anglican and there were people who attended because it was attached to a very good school.
The attitude of the clergy and staff was that it gave them an opportunity to build relationships with people and expose them to Christianity. The rest was up to God! A lot came to faith, but there were some who disappeared once the kids had started secondary school.
Tubbs
Yes, I used to work at such a church - attached to the best school in the area. Usually it all worked ok, occasionally an odd parent would get cross and write to the local paper complaining that they were being "forced" to sit through all sorts of offensive sermons about the exclusivity of Jesus and repentance from sin simply to get their child's education sorted.
At the time I thought they had a bit too much of a culture of entitlement - now I feel a bit more sympathy.
Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Ah. I understand that CofE evangelical churches are often based in nice suburban areas, so perhaps good schools in those areas are more likely to be attached to such churches. In the more urban areas (outside London, anyway) are the good schools more likely to be attached to other kinds of CofE congregations?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Ah. I understand that CofE evangelical churches are often based in nice suburban areas, so perhaps good schools in those areas are more likely to be attached to such churches.
In nice suburban areas, schools are generally better anyway. Usually the CofE schools are not noticeably better - and are often attended by people from out of immediate area anyway.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Alisdair
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# 15837
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Posted
Hopefully this has already been said, but IMHO:
Any school with a religious foundation but funded largely through general tatxation should be obliged to take all comers from within it's catchment, no strings attached.
If it prefers to offer preferential places to the children of those who profess the requisite faith, then the memebership of said faith should jolly well get on and fund it.
If these schools are established to turn out 'believers' they need to admit it and act accordingly. If they are there to offer an education in line with national standards, while the teaching staff draw on a personal faith as a foundation for being able to face the ravening horde each day, and the school provides a faith based ethos to guide behaviour, but each child is welcome on their own terms regardless of family background, with no agenda to 'connvert' them; well that's good too, make it clear and do the job.
But the appalling fudge that seems to blight the field of play today in England is a disgrace to the adults of the nation, and ill serves the children who deserve much better behaviour.
E-
Posts: 334 | From: Washed up in England | Registered: Aug 2010
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alisdair:
... But the appalling fudge that seems to blight the field of play today in England is a disgrace to the adults of the nation, and ill serves the children who deserve much better behaviour.
That really is overstating things somewhat.
The present situation is not perfect. It has a number of flaws. But what changes a person wants to see depend on what one thinks is wrong with it, what one thinks education is for, who decides, how far one trusts the state, what you think taxpayers are and are not entitled to get for their money and whether one is entitled to ignore deals previous generations thought they had committed themselves to.
The equation, 'this is funded partially from general taxation - therefore the state is entitled to insist on my priorities rather than those of other taxpayers' is very, very unsound.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
Well, I don't know, I'm largely with Alisdair on this. May I point out that:
1. Many "Church Schools" were founded to offer education to children of the parish, not the congregation. Attendance at church was not, AFAIK, a criterion for admission.
2. There was great resistance among Nonconformists to the 1902 Education Act, as they believed that they were have to pay for "Sectarian" (i.e. Anglican or Catholic) schools from their local rates. In a campaign of "passive resistance" many refused to pay the precept and were fined, imprisoned or had goods sequestrated as a result.
3. The present system is a "fudge" deriving from the 1902, 1906 and 1944 Education Acts - just as the ability of doctors to work in both the NHS and privately was a concession in the 1947 Health Act.
Personally I would like to have either "State Schools" - with good RE and a recognition of the place religion has played (and continues to play) in our country's life; or private Church/Religious schools, funded by their respective bodies. But I'm not too sure of the latter since they are hardly likely to promote community cohesion. I don't like the present situation.
[ 28. January 2015, 16:03: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Try
Shipmate
# 4951
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Aberdeen City (separate council area) does have fee-paying schools, and also two Roman Catholic primaries, but almost all (over 90%) of pupils are in the state comprehensive system.
Are the RC schools part of the state system, or are they also private, fee paying schools, as Catholic schools (and Episcopal schools for that matter) are in the United States?
Incidentally, in some dioceses American Episcopalians send their children to the local public (state) schools without a thought. In other dioceses the Episcopalians seem to have a system of parochial schools almost as well developed as the RCs.
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“I’m so glad to be a translator in the 20th century. They only burn Bibles now, not the translators!” - the Rev. Dr. Bruce M. Metzger
Posts: 852 | From: Beautiful Ohio, in dreams again I see... | Registered: Sep 2003
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Try:
Are the RC schools part of the state system ...
Yes. They are usually VA schools in the same way as CofE, Methodist and Jewish ones.
This is wikipaedia's description of what a VA school and how it differs from a VC school.
Traditionally, RC schools have always been quite open that they are there to provide state funded schools for Catholic parents, in a way that some of the comments on this thread have deprecated for CofE parents and schools.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Originally posted by Try:
quote:
Are the RC schools part of the state system,
Yes, but unlike other state schools which have a specific catchment area, and every child within that catchment area gets a place in that school, the Roman catholic schools take children from across the city, if the parents opt for a RC school rather than their catchment area school.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Pasta
Apprentice
# 5635
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Posted
I worked as a school chaplain in Surrey with strong competition for church school places. At the local chapter meeting there would often be moans "it's really irritating getting all these parents coming and joining our churches just to get a school place. They all leave after a couple of years". I could never be certain they had seen the irony, that it was the local church's responsibility to engage them so that they would want to stay!
I did quite often wonder if the truth was that they saw church as a place for either the insider or the person they'd nabbed. Outsiders flooding into their churches was definitely bad though.
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Happiness is a contented kipper
Posts: 43 | From: Suffolk | Registered: Mar 2004
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Do these churches get any support or advice as to how to adapt their ethos and their traditions in order to make things comfortable for newcomers who don't have much experience of church life?
It seems a bit harsh to criticise churches that find themselves in this position but haven't been given any guidance. Let's be honest: most historical churches have very little recent experience of sharing the gospel with non-believers, and some congregations have become inward-looking because they've grown used to being ignored by everyone else.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Pasta
Apprentice
# 5635
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Posted
I find it hard to sympathise with churches' whose complaint is that they are getting newcomers. But yes, I know the "local church for local people" syndrome.
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Happiness is a contented kipper
Posts: 43 | From: Suffolk | Registered: Mar 2004
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Churches like the idea of newcomers in theory. But in practice, unless the newcomers are just like the oldies a large number of new people will entail a change of identity for the church, and that's hard to deal with.
It must be even worse if you know that the newcomers would rather not be there at all, except that they need the vicar to sign a form for them.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Schools are generally seen as being about educating children - and the parents need to be aware of/accepting of the nature of the education their child will get at a church-run school.
But it seems to me that this attendance requirement is an attempt to 'educate' the parents first, to effectively enrol them as a condition of enrolling the children.
Which seems a bit problematic. No-one ever told my parents that before they could get me into piano lessons, they too had to study piano.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Golden Key
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# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pasta:
I find it hard to sympathise with churches' whose complaint is that they are getting newcomers. But yes, I know the "local church for local people" syndrome.
Yes, especially when they make a point of publicly saying they're welcoming, but ignore newish people to the point of a) intensely gossiping about all sorts of church people and business, as if no one else is around; b) pretending as if the volunteers they're directly working with don't exist; and c) are usually only interested in people who are rich, famous, or are both in need AND unusually talented.
If you don't want anyone but The Right People in your church, don't pretend you want the general public to join.
(Me? Issues? ![[Biased]](wink.gif) )
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Pasta
Apprentice
# 5635
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Posted
Most of these newcomers are very supportive of the church in a vague Queen, Tradition, Jerusalem and Midnight Mass sort of way. They will have been to church a number of times anyway in their life. In the whole post modern "belong before you believe" world I would have thought the system is perfect; but only in church can you preach forgiveness while hating your brother and frantically organise mission weeks whilst resenting the newcomers that come from the school.
I do wonder if the real issue is that the church is secretly miffed that they didn't get the new family in; because if they'd done it then that would be kudos to them!
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Happiness is a contented kipper
Posts: 43 | From: Suffolk | Registered: Mar 2004
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
Tangent, but why is 'belong before you believe' seen as being post-modern? Surely that was what characterised the great majority of Christians at least from the time of Constantine until the last century.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Pasta
Apprentice
# 5635
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Posted
Enlightened modernity emphasised the power and supremacy of reason. You could be intellectually convinced that God was real or not. In the church it had its heyday in the evangelical preachers from 1850 to 1960. Even though it was tailing off in the 70's and 80's, the idea was still prevalent that we just had to get them to a talk by Billy Graham or a wannabe like Michael Green. Then they would believe and go on to belong.
Post modernity was the re-discovery of the supremacy of relationship, you were invited to hang out at some socials, get to know the believers, if they were authentic you would move from belonging to believing. Very much the pattern with church school selection. I went to church to meet girls, I was equally good at belonging before believing and with no better motives than Mr & Mrs Gimmie-a-school-place.
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Happiness is a contented kipper
Posts: 43 | From: Suffolk | Registered: Mar 2004
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Tangent, but why is 'belong before you believe' seen as being post-modern? Surely that was what characterised the great majority of Christians at least from the time of Constantine until the last century.
I don't think it worked like that in the Bible, but from the point of view of a state church I suppose it makes sense to enculturate people with religious rituals rather than expecting them to arrive with ready-made evidence of a particular spiritual or intellectual state. After all, such churches don't normally go out to evangelise; they expect people to come to them.
I think the problem is that in the current situation the self-serving aspect is so blatant. We live in a solidly secular culture, and AFAIK there's little sense that these people are coming to church out of any curiosity about Christianity, or a desire to give their children an understanding of their religious heritage, or a vague notion that it might provide them with some spiritual benefit. It's simply about acquiring an educational and social advantage over other people.
But I suppose you could say that most of life is like that anyway; we all want to beat other people to that place at Oxford, to that great job, to that desirable marriage partner, etc., or to ensure that our children do. Since this is human nature perhaps it makes sense for the right churches in the right places to be realistic about it and possibly make a few converts by participating in the process.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Since this is human nature perhaps it makes sense for the right churches in the right places to be realistic about it and possibly make a few converts by participating in the process.
Let the little children come to me... so long as their parents come along too, are in good financial standing and fill out the correct forms.
Doesn't really have quite the same ring, does it?
On one level a church school is an enterprise that needs some form of running like any enterprise. But it seems to me there's a fairly fundamental collision between values of status-seeking and business-running and values of doing good just because it's good.
And I don't think this is the only area where the collision occurs. Too often, churches act like they're in the conversion business. It's as if God set them sales targets. And so they don't do something just because it will help the community or is a service that needs providing, they'll do it because they see it as an opportunity to upsell people on becoming a church member.
Such behaviour is uncomfortably close to the more sneaky and underhand versions of what commercial businesses do. I'm sure we've all had a telemarketer say "would you like a free phone (or something)", and then if you say yes, they will then tell you that actually, to get the thing that you want you've got to also have other things.
If the church is offering to provide children with a high standard of education which reflects Christian values, then it should provide children with a high standard of education which reflects Christian values. It should not engage in bundling. It should not say "ah, well, if you want us to educate your children, the only way to get that is in a package with our regular Sunday attendance program".
[ 30. January 2015, 23:41: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Let the little children come to me... so long as their parents come along too, are in good financial standing and fill out the correct forms.
Doesn't really have quite the same ring, does it
Indeed! My comment was made with a certain sense of resignation about the whole thing. (But the parents don't exactly have to be in good financial standing, just not in the kind of poverty that goes along with chaotic lifestyles.)
quote:
If the church is offering to provide children with a high standard of education which reflects Christian values, then it should provide children with a high standard of education which reflects Christian values. It should not engage in bundling. It should not say "ah, well, if you want us to educate your children, the only way to get that is in a package with our regular Sunday attendance program".
Regular Sunday attendance is only required when a school is ridiculously popular. Most CofE schools aren't in that position, which, ironically, seems to be a good thing.
In the interests of full disclosure, I should add that my mother tried to get me into such a school when I was little, but she failed. But I was interested to discover recently that the CofE church I now attend signs in forms for parents who want to send their children to the very same school. I don't know what the rules were when I was of primary school age, but if my mother had raised me in the CofE rather than as a Methodist things might have been a bit different!
[ 31. January 2015, 00:30: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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squidgetsmum
Apprentice
# 17708
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Posted
Late to the party, but we've just had this moral debate as the Squidge will start school in September. Since he's been at church since he was in utero, and we're between two church schools, our choices seem pretty easy. However, we've actually chosen the school that doesn't prioritise church membership, figuring that we couldn't see why this should make a difference. I hope to hell he gets in, as it's a good school, but the admission policy was a definite part of our decision.
Posts: 13 | Registered: May 2013
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
We tried to get our sons into the local CofE High school which gets outstanding results across the board. We had full Churchy points - as many as it's possible to get, plus a letter from our Minister etc etc. They didn't get in - we are Methodists so the CofE kids were way up the list.
My sons went to the local comp which had just failed its Ofsted. They were thrilled as al their friends went there too. It's in the worst ward in the country on all statistical counts.
My two both got 4 A* A levels (two being maths and further maths) They went on to University, Masters degrees and excellent jobs (Airline pilot and Nurse)
Both still say they much preferred the local comp. It taught them well with the added bonus of many life-skills lessons they would never have had at the highly selective school.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
Indeed. We are in the process of secondary school application for Boy #1 at the moment - the school he's most likely to get allocated to has appalling results, but the issue that bothers me is that they don't offer triple science, and I consider double science (never mind, God help us, single award science) to be a mockery of the subject. I'd have no problem if they remedied that. Oh, and took IT seriously.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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