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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Demons
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
What are your views about the demons Jesus and his followers were said to drive out of people?
Some claim that demonic forces are everywhere. I know someone who says that demons came out of him when he was saved. He puts this down to his having dabbled in spiritualism. He claims that they were connected to his addictions.
I also know someone who is aggrieved, having been at the other end of the 'Come out of her in the name of the Lord' brigade when she had a fairly common illness. She puts this down to the stories in the Bible.
I try to keep an open mind, but would prefer to think that there were no such things.
Istm that unless given the authority by God to use such words, as discerned by the church, none of us should ever try to drive out demons, whether or not they exist.
What are your thoughts?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
Well, I do not believe there is a demonic cause for most things; but I need to ask why the Church of England - hardly a demons-under-every-stone -charismatic fellowship - has an exorcist in every diocese (so I believe).
Demons are real but not common.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I believe in the existence of demons, but that almost everything that people imagine to be demonisation or demonic activity today is not.
I've been on the receiving end of being discerned as having a "Jezebellic spirit", which you can read about at length in books like this and this. They list various supposed "symptoms", all of them subjective, some of them contradictory, and none of them based on any clear biblical exegesis. This "discernment" cost me, well, a lot.
If you look at the OT story of Jezebel, however, particularly the story of Naboth's vineyard, the plain narrative describes how Jezebel schemes to acquire some real estate, with the scheme aided and abette by some pseudospiritual talk.
In my experience this kind of action is alive and well in churches today and is truly demonic. Inexplicably, it gets less attention than people hearing voices or listening to Black Sabbath (backwards or forwards).
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I think everybody, given the choice, would prefer to think there were no such creatures! Unfortunately, I think there is. Still, they seem to have been unusually common in Jesus' day, possibly as a direct reaction to the Son of God's invading the world.
And of course you have to tread very, very carefully before concluding that a demon is directly responsible for particular situations today. There are way too many natural and human factors that can easily account for most problems.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Well, I do not believe there is a demonic cause for most things; but I need to ask why the Church of England - hardly a demons-under-every-stone -charismatic fellowship - has an exorcist in every diocese (so I believe).
Demons are real but not common.
This.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Well, I do not believe there is a demonic cause for most things; but I need to ask why the Church of England - hardly a demons-under-every-stone -charismatic fellowship - has an exorcist in every diocese (so I believe).
Demons are real but not common.
This.
Oh, and yes, you're right, they do. Because, on a vanishingly small number of occasions, it's necessary.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I think everybody, given the choice, would prefer to think there were no such creatures!
And I suspect a great many people would much prefer to believe in them. Handy "outs" for those reluctant to accept responsibility for their own actions.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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TomM
Shipmate
# 4618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Well, I do not believe there is a demonic cause for most things; but I need to ask why the Church of England - hardly a demons-under-every-stone -charismatic fellowship - has an exorcist in every diocese (so I believe).
Demons are real but not common.
This.
Oh, and yes, you're right, they do. Because, on a vanishingly small number of occasions, it's necessary.
...and it's good to have an expert to discern whether exorcism is necessary or whether to refer to appropriate medical professionals/counsellors etc. (As opposed to the parish priest, who will almost certainly never have any relevant experience)
Posts: 405 | Registered: Jun 2003
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Well, I do not believe there is a demonic cause for most things; but I need to ask why the Church of England - hardly a demons-under-every-stone -charismatic fellowship - has an exorcist in every diocese (so I believe).
Demons are real but not common.
This.
Oh, and yes, you're right, they do. Because, on a vanishingly small number of occasions, it's necessary.
Can I ask you about that? If there is a 'vanishingly small number' - by which I think you mean that exorcisms are needed less because demonic activity is lessening - why would that be?
Are demons less active?
To be honest it seems that people might have taken over their jobs! (bitter laugh).
Of course, we cannot know, but I wonder if the lack of activity is a kind of preparation for a greater assault? Kind like the tide going way out before a tsunami?
Is Satan preparing for a 'big event'?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Well, I do not believe there is a demonic cause for most things; but I need to ask why the Church of England - hardly a demons-under-every-stone -charismatic fellowship - has an exorcist in every diocese (so I believe).
Demons are real but not common.
This.
Oh, and yes, you're right, they do. Because, on a vanishingly small number of occasions, it's necessary.
Can I ask you about that? If there is a 'vanishingly small number' - by which I think you mean that exorcisms are needed less because demonic activity is lessening - why would that be?
Are demons less active?
To be honest it seems that people might have taken over their jobs! (bitter laugh).
Of course, we cannot know, but I wonder if the lack of activity is a kind of preparation for a greater assault? Kind like the tide going way out before a tsunami?
Is Satan preparing for a 'big event'?
"Vanishingly small" typically means "very small" rather than "increasingly small" (decreasingly large, however you'd rather look at it).
Perceived demonic activity is diminishing because the majority of people no longer see epilepsy, schizophrenia, or groups of women as demonic in etiology.
Dioceses have exorcists for historical reasons (this is a church continuous with late antiquity and the medieval period in its institution) and to refer people to mental health professionals as needed. And perhaps for an occasional exorcism. I doubt (although I'm not sure) that this is a full-time vocation for most diocesan exorcists.
Posts: 424 | From: USA | Registered: May 2012
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
quote:
Is Satan preparing for a 'big event'?
I'm not having a go at you, Mudfrog, because I've been pulled up on something a bit like this too, in the fairly recent past. But doesn't this depend a bit on where one is, asking this question? After all, if we were in Mosul, Donetsk, Freetown or bits of northern Nigeria, we'd presumably be thinking that a worlds-worth of demonic shit was going down, right now. And if we had been in those places a couple of years ago and sitting pretty, wondering about spooky graveyards and rock-band lyrics (thanks Euty) like some Christians do, we would have been forgetting those poor folks in Haiti, coastal Japan or whose kids had just been kidnapped in the middle of the night by the Lord's Resistance Army.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
The Twilight book series has sold over 100 million copies, because that many people are pleasantly thrilled to imagine vampires are real. I think some of those people get the same shivery delight thinking there might be demons.
I don't believe in vampires or demons and it bothers me when Christians suggest that some people do need the services of an exorcist, because, to my mind, those ill people are made worse and are delayed getting the medical treatment they need.
As for the demons Jesus treated. I don't know. Maybe those people were mentally ill or maybe Jesus was treating something we don't have a name for, but he was Jesus and we're not. I wouldn't want a self-styled exorcist working over me anymore than I would want a church official to try and cure my eye infection by spitting on mud and putting it over my eyes.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
The modernist/post modernist views seek to find a rational way to explain everything.
However, in cultures that are still relatively primitive, demons are very much real.
I knew a missionary in the Philippines who were working with a people that believed in demons. He even witnessed some himself. He described seeing seven demons dancing on a hill.
My pastor would say a demon is anything that seeks to destroy human relationships and even destroy the sense of self.
I really have never experienced a sense of a demon, though I know many people who have.
One thing I learned over my life time is if you don't believe in them, you won't see them.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
Back in the hippie era people would sometimes talk about an empty room you walk into and feel "bad vibes." For no known reason.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Twilight.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Well, I do not believe there is a demonic cause for most things; but I need to ask why the Church of England - hardly a demons-under-every-stone -charismatic fellowship - has an exorcist in every diocese (so I believe).
Not under every stone perhaps but....
Some twenty months ago I was present at an Anglican church service where the priest related an event which he claimed was an instance of the Holy Spirit (thru him and others) casting out demons that had been forced to name themselves. He immediately proclaimed "a miracle" despite a much more likely but prosaic explanation (endorphins). A few minutes later he halted his attempt at mass hypnosis by insisting that it needed a congregation-wide triple shout of "Jesus is Lord" (because that was very potent in the spirit world) to enable the Holy Spirit to escape the realm of demonic powers and grace his service with its presence. I don't know what happened - as was said on some Sundays under different circumstances, I made my excuses and left.
I wonder if the CofE might need the services of exorcists to minister to its own?
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Back in the hippie era people would sometimes talk about an empty room you walk into and feel "bad vibes." For no known reason.
The word "known" is important.
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
I was always under the impression that the CofE maintained exorcists partly as an insurance in a kind of well-demons-might-exist-so-we'd-better-be-prepared way and partly to keep the wackier fringes of the church under control by having set procedures for dealing with suspected "demonic possession". I've never seen anything I would consider evidence of demonic activity but I'm not going to rule out the possibly of malign spiritual entities entirely.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
quote:
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Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Back in the hippie era people would sometimes talk about an empty room you walk into and feel "bad vibes." For no known reason.
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The word "known" is important.
I wasn't around for the hippie era, but I always took the phrase "bad vibes" to be something like saying "There's something about that guy that rubs me the wrong way". Not a mystical thing, more just an intimation of things that are hard to classify or verbalize.
Though, I suppose the words "vibes" is derived from "vibrations", which taken literally would mean a real force emanating from spaces or objects, over and above just negative emotions. That's usually not how I read it, though.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
I think HughWillRidMee's point is a valid one, nevertheless. "Demons" can be used as a sort of negative version of a God of the Gaps.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Like Twilight, it's not for me to question Jesus, even though I embrace His full humanity.
But there can be NO QUESTION that evil is real. As a foul synergy of ... our humanity. In the institutions, the systems, the cultures, the memes, the religions, the politics that emerge from us.
What else do you call the FUCKING bedroom tax? Who needs Satan and demons when we can do that? Or did they make us do it? And my profanity?
[ 07. March 2015, 22:13: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I think everybody, given the choice, would prefer to think there were no such creatures!
And I suspect a great many people would much prefer to believe in them. Handy "outs" for those reluctant to accept responsibility for their own actions.
I'm quoting this because it seems to me a good example-in-miniature of an attitude that seems to be common, namely, that there are only two camps--those who are rational, modern, intelligent disbelievers about demons, and those who believe in them (or say they do) as a way of getting power over others.
There is at least one more option--that the things actually exist, and cause some people grief, which they rightly want to be rid of.
Look, not everybody who believes they are real is a jerk. I believe they exist, and I am not some fool who thinks epilepsy or bipolar or various other conditions are caused by demonic possession. You don't have to be a scientific ignoramus to believe that spiritual beings who wish us ill do exist.
After all, there are physical beings who wish us ill and exist (as anybody who has ever had a human enemy can attest). If spiritual beings exist (which is a question in itself), it is not such a great leap to suppose that some of them may not be well disposed toward us.
My primary grounds for believing in them are first of all, Scripture (which obviously not everyone accepts) and the fact that Jesus himself believed they existed. I'm inclined to take his word for it.
But my secondary grounds--which are soft evidence, not hard--are based on experience. Namely 25 years in missionary service, and some of the things we have seen there. Almost any missionary can tell you stories, though most of the ones I've met tend to be close-mouthed for fear of triggering freako reactions in unstable listeners. Which is to say, we don't make these things a primary focus of our talking-to-the-people-back-home presentations. An interest in demons tends to be unhealthy if it goes very far.
But this is what I'm thinking about: On more than one occasion we've had people from the community come to us requesting exorcism (if that's the right word) after a series of uncanny events affecting their families. We didn't suggest it, they were the ones who came begging for it. And they're not singling out an individual as a candidate for exorcism--there's no concern about abusing a person who needs medical help.
So what do you say to such a family--"Go home, demons don't exist, and never mind the odd happenings in your home"? Because I do think they exist, though I hesitate to say in any particular case that they are involved.
Sorry for the incoherence.
[ 07. March 2015, 22:26: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
I do think there are spiritual entities of some type that are ill disposed towards people. Whether they are demons or spirits or the unquiet dead I don't claim to know. I don't think they interfere with us on too regular a basis but I do think it happens occasionally.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
an attitude that seems to be common, namely, that there are only two camps--those who are rational, modern, intelligent disbelievers about demons, and those who believe in them (or say they do) as a way of getting power over others.
There is at least one more option--that the things actually exist, and cause some people grief, which they rightly want to be rid of.
The "rational, modern, intelligent" argument is commonly used to declare there are no miracles and never were, the "natural explanations" including "Jesus' body is still in the tomb, the disciples were inspired by memory of him, that memory was the resurrection." I.e. rejection of supernatural effect on lives, past or present, is rejected with the insistence there's a natural (non-supernatural) explanation.
I hadn't thought to wonder until this discussion - are there people who believe in supernatural positive (miracles) but reject the concept of supernatural negative (harassment, blocking)? Or is the issue the *any* supernatural reality that sometimes directly affects individual lives?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
If you believe that God exists, then you believe that a pure Spirit can exist as a living being, and be a Person who acts without a body. If you believe that a Divine Spirit can have incorporeal personal life, then it seems difficult to deny that a created spirit could have incorporeal life as well. And given God's evident happiness to create all sorts of stuff, it seems rather probable that he created some incorporeal persons. Angels. If angels exist as created persons, then it seems likely that they will be challenged by sin somehow. And it also seems likely that some of them ended up being evil somehow. Demons, devils.
To claim that one believes only in God, but not in angels or demons, is a strange kind of Divine exceptionalism. Somehow God pulls off the trick of existing as a personal Spirit, but cannot (or does not want to) create other personal spirits. I find that hard to believe. Even without any scriptural evidence (and there's plenty), theo-logic would suggest the likelihood of the existence of angels and demons.
I have no better demon detector than anybody else, so I have no real clue what fraction of psychological disturbances and evil in this world is due to direct demonic action. But I would point out one key advantage of thinking of our mental struggles as fighting against inner demons. For saying that one is "possessed" by a demon (or many...) does not need to be simply a facile attempt to evade responsibility. It can also be a way to separate yourself, the "true you", from that what ails you, and make it your enemy, that which you oppose.
We are often told that the first step to healing is to step back from yourself and see your problems. Well, easier said than done. But thinking in terms of demons allows a very efficient version of this. Maybe not one that satisfies the criteria of enlightened scepticism, but one that pragmatically works. For if I am occupied by evil, sin, addiction, you name it, personified, then I can become a freedom fighter against that occupation of myself by that demon.
I do not know how often there really is a demon in us, and how often that is just a way of discerning who we really want to be vs. who we currently really are. But maybe that is less important than driving out those demons.
And if you drive out a demon, then you can shed your guilt and shame in the same act. There is no need to dwell on the past of how you were, once you have reformed yourself (other than possibly to prepare defences against renewed attacks). You were more a victim than a perpetrator, having freed yourself you are free. You can even feel pride at having emerged victorious from this battle. And also others, if they join you in your belief, can find forgiveness for you much more readily. For who is going to blame the person who was under the yoke of an evil tyranny, and fought so hard to be free of it, for all that was done while the tyranny had not yet been overthrown? That would be petty.
If a demon leaves a person, then in some sense that person is reborn as their true self. What is there to do but to rejoice, even if that person injured us when they were still under the influence of that demon?
I think believing in demons, and dealing with them, can help us and others do what we should be doing. Yes, like everything this has a bad side, and I'm certainly not advocating that we should ignore for example biochemical imbalances in the brain leading to depression just to uphold some narrative of demons. But we should be a bit careful about dismissing demons too quickly. Both as real entities, and as a pragmatic way of dealing with people in psychological difficulties.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
There's a fourth option, Lamb Chopped:
Phenomena we do not (yet) understand and/or do not or cannot (yet) accept -- and may never know or accept.
Given the discussion on another thread about the inconceivable scope of the universe, and the paltriness of humankind, it always astonishes me how readily we all seem to forget how little we know and understand as opposed to how much there is to know, and what miniscule access we have to nearly all of it.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I hadn't thought to wonder until this discussion - are there people who believe in supernatural positive (miracles) but reject the concept of supernatural negative (harassment, blocking)? Or is the issue the *any* supernatural reality that sometimes directly affects individual lives?
I might be one such person - as long as you surround my position with a ton loads of caveats....
I don't think we see "miracles" as such in today's world. But I am not 100% convinced that God cannot perform miracles.
But I reject the idea of "demons" - and certainly reject the idea of any dualistic arrangement where "demons" and "angels" are in a reasonably equal battle over the souls of humans.
Demons are the personification of impersonal forces of injustice, oppression, evil and hatred. And - as Jesus so vividly pointed out - such forces are not "out there" but lie deep within every one of us.
Believing in demons is a way of saying "the problem is out there - it's not my fault." I think we need to lose the idea of demons so that we can clearly see that I am the problem - that WE are the problem.
But that - to my mind - is a completely different argument to the one about whether God can perform miracles.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
I agree with Mudfrog, Lamb Chopped, Nicolemr, and IngoB. Also Porridge, since there are also things we don't understand going on (which needn't be mutually exclusive with the other things).
I'd also point out that the notion of angels and demons (and, to a degree, God and Satan) as roughly equal and opposite forces engaged in a war in which the outcome is really in doubt is a product of fiction, not of anything I'd recognize as Christian theology. It's kind of in there with the notion that humans become angels or demons after death. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
For my money, Dr Andrew Walker and the former president of the Baptist Union, Nigel Wright, have written intelligently and cogently on this subject - and in a way that is consonant with Big T Tradition in what we might call the Orthodox and RC senses of the term ...
Like Lamb Chopped, I don't believe that one has to be some kind of flat-earth fundie to believe in the reality of these things ... but we have to be careful how we frame them.
I think it was from Walker and Wright that I got the - to me very helpful - idea that with the Devil and all his legions (as it were) we are not talking about 'personality' as such - at least not in the conventional sense - but rather a kind of 'anti-personality'.
On one level, evil is simply the absence of good - it doesn't have any 'positive' existence but it is nonetheless very, very real and its effects can be seen all around us.
Consequently - although they are 'created beings' - or spiritual entities that have become warped somewhere along the line - I don't think we should consider demons - or jinns or whatever else we might call them - as 'creatures' in the same way as, say, a cat, dog, weasel, whale or albatross are creatures ...
That's one of the issues I have with Gramps's account of his pastor friend 'seeing' seven demons dancing on a hill-top. I tend to think that each culture envisages or 'pictures' these things in accordance with its own visual culture or traditions - so in the West we would tend to visualise them in terms of medieval depictions and the bat-like creatures on frescoes and so on - whereas in Eastern religions they tend to be visualised in keeping with Hindu or Buddhist iconography ...
As IngoB reminds us, we are not dealing with corporeal forces here - 'our battle is not with flesh and blood ...'
Now, I'm sure Lamb Chopped and other former or current missionaries could tell me stories that would raise my eyebrows so high that they'd tumble down the back of my head ...
People may well 'see' things - but essentially we are dealing with unseen and uncorporeal forces here ... and whilst electricity might not be an exact analogy it might be a helpful one to some extent.
As for exorcisms and the CofE ... I agree with what's been said so far that each Diocese has someone who specialises or advises on such things ... but from what I can gather, most Diocesan exorcists (or RC exorcists) tend to be called up to exorcise places and things rather than people.
The pub my Dad used to frequent was thought to have a malign atmosphere or 'presence' in certain rooms so an exorcist was brought in to quell and calm the evil influences ... much to my father's amusement.
I'd say there was a malign atmosphere in that particular pub alright - but it wasn't anything to do with ghouls and ghosts lurking in the wainscot but rather the somewhat toxic atmosphere generated in the public bar night after night ...
But that's another story ...
As for whether Satan is planning some kind of big push - or Battle of the Bulge as it were - as a counter-attack to Calvary ...
Well, that all depends on your eschatology.
My own view is that as Judeo-Christian influence gradually withdraws from the public sphere then the way is open for all manner of influences to fill the gaps - some benign, some otherwise ... indeed, some positively demonic.
I would not hesitate to use the term 'demonic' to describe what happens in societies when things go badly awry - be it Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, Pol Pot's Cambodia, Rwanda during the genocide or the incursions of IS ...
These are the forces we should fear and attempt to stand against and 'exorcise' ... they are unseen and largely 'impersonal' forces - but they lead to dreadfully tangible results ... the fanatics with the suicide-belts and Kalashnikovs, the destruction of ancient artefacts and cultures, the desire to dehumanise anyone who disagrees ...
These demonic attributes can be seen anywhere and everywhere ... and such forces are at work, I believe, whenever we see 'ethnic cleansing' of whatever kind, the demonisation of any group or sector within society or the exaltation of our own agendas over and above the common good ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
As for exorcisms and the CofE ... I agree with what's been said so far that each Diocese has someone who specialises or advises on such things ... but from what I can gather, most Diocesan exorcists (or RC exorcists) tend to be called up to exorcise places and things rather than people.
The pub my Dad used to frequent was thought to have a malign atmosphere or 'presence' in certain rooms so an exorcist was brought in to quell and calm the evil influences ... much to my father's amusement.
I recall that, in my early teens, my father was persuaded to exorcise a house in his West London parish which the occupants were convinced they shared with a poltergeist. I think he went to the house and read a few prayers (he wasn't a sprinkle and tinkle vicar) and I can't recall any discussion as to whether it was effective in changing their conviction.
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I hadn't thought to wonder until this discussion - are there people who believe in supernatural positive (miracles) but reject the concept of supernatural negative (harassment, blocking)? Or is the issue the *any* supernatural reality that sometimes directly affects individual lives?
To some of us the concept of "supernatural reality" is an oxymoron. If supernaturalism exists I can find neither evidence that survives rigorous questioning for it nor for any effect it has on "the natural world", and if it has no effect it effectively does not exist. There are, of course, things we can't explain - but then we couldn't explain seasons, volcanoes or infection until fairly recently in human existence could we? We only understand them now because, instead of settling for simple guesses based on supernatural concepts, we followed the more effective route of scientific enquiry. The danger, for humanity, in belief in the supernatural (be it alternatively medical, talking to the dead etc. or religious) is that it impedes, restricts and prevents rational processes that lead to better lives for many (climate forecasting, evacuation procedures and vaccination for starters).
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
That depends on your view of causality... if you believe that spiritual forces are largely powerless, then yes - that is a good strategy. If you believe that they are not, then the situation is rather more complex, and what is "right" or not is harder to define.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
In the Hebrew Bible, there isn't as much room for demons in its world view as in later theology, since Yahweh is seen as the author of both Good and Evil. By being an exorcist, Jesus is not only a child of his time, but also a child of his place as demons weren't universally believed in by Jews, but do appear to be a popular idea in northern Palestine. Rough contemporaries like the charismatic Rabbi Hanina Ben Dosa were also well known as exorcists. Of course the obvious reply to that would be that one of the reasons God chose that particular time and place to become incarnate was because demons are real and he wished this to be affirmed by his ministry as a human being.
Of course it's impossible to disprove the existence of demons if you believe in God - just as it's impossible to disprove the existence of water nymphs, fairies and leprechauns. Everything except the intrinsically impossible is up for grabs if you believe in an omnipotent creator Spirit.
Modern evidence of demons and possession tend to be decidedly underwhelming. Malachi Martin - the former Jesuit who wrote 'Hostage to the Devil', is an unreliable witness to put it mildly. His 'student' the Psychiatrist M. Scott Peck's book on exorcisms which he undertook is inconclusive. His grounds for diagnosing possession rather than mental illness is dodgy to say the least.
My understanding of diocesan exorcists in the Church of England is that the vast majority of what they do (from what they say or are permitted to say) seems to be more to do with allowing restless human spirits to 'pass on' from places rather than with battling demons possessing humans.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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Aravis
Shipmate
# 13824
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Posted
Has anyone any suggestions what to say or do if someone tells you, in some detail, that they have been plagued by spirits for many years?
This wasn't in the context of anything to do with church. The person had no idea whether or not I had any faith of any description. She needed someone to talk to and appeared genuinely very frightened. Mental health services have closed involvement as she won't turn up to appointments.
Posts: 689 | From: S Wales | Registered: Jun 2008
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
Maybe a caveat is in order...
There is another thread about faith/belief on this board, and one important point is that there are more people prepared to believe tacitly in demons because they are scared of them, than are prepared to get their head round the issues of belief in God. That is totally the wrong way round, and in a general sense, the issue of demons or not demons is better ignored.
For sure, thought forms that did not originate in the person they reside in are fairly common, though they usually do not possess malevolent intent. Assuming that they do without a greater faith in God is a dangerous path to walk on - even if they don't exist.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Aravis:
Has anyone any suggestions what to say or do if someone tells you, in some detail, that they have been plagued by spirits for many years?
This wasn't in the context of anything to do with church. The person had no idea whether or not I had any faith of any description. She needed someone to talk to and appeared genuinely very frightened. Mental health services have closed involvement as she won't turn up to appointments.
Perhaps you could find out if any of the priests in your parish or diocese are interested in exorcism and if they could offer her any help.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
Anything frightening, unusual, or unexplained tended to be ascribed to demons in various places and at various times.
There is no consistency, as far as I can see, even within the New Testament, regarding what conditions were demonic and which were not. There are exorcisms in Mark, certainly, but elsewhere epilepsy seems to have been recognised as something with a physical cause.
One way of dealing with mental illnesses in modern times has ben the use of ECT - electro-convulsive therapy. AIUI, this works by artificially stimulation an epileptic fit.
I've often wondered whether exorcisms worked in a similar way - and with similarly inconsistent results. This is pure conjecture, I must add - I'm no neuro scientist.
But one famous - or notorious - advocate of exorcism, M. Scott Peck has been very open about the dangers involved. Even to the point of admitting that it may be fatal - and the patient (whose total acquiescence is a sine qua non) must be informed of the possible side effects. More astonishingly, Peck has asserted that non-Christians may be involved in the exercise in some appropriate circumstances.
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Aravis:
Has anyone any suggestions what to say or do if someone tells you, in some detail, that they have been plagued by spirits for many years?
This wasn't in the context of anything to do with church. The person had no idea whether or not I had any faith of any description. She needed someone to talk to and appeared genuinely very frightened. Mental health services have closed involvement as she won't turn up to appointments.
Firstly, the usual hostly caveat about not seeking medical advice of any sort here.
To some extent, I think accompaniment in this realm should be allowed to be tailored to the worldview of the individual, provided it does not involve dishonesty on the part of the helper.
Someone I spoke to recently gave a lengthy account of undue influence of black magic running through several generations in their family with horrendous consequences, including an apparition of the perpetrator.
The latter was quite likely a case of pareidolia.
I don't think the person in question would be mentally capable of understanding pareidolia or how it could have that effect, but a Bible verse about God cursing for a couple of generations but blessing for a thousand seemed to be of considerable help right there and then.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
With my head, I find the idea of demons hard to grasp. They don't fit in with the physical world. And, more than that, to have God allow these predatory entities to wander round causing grief to people who cannot defend themselves, without having his own entities dealing with the situation seems wrong.
But. A couple of odd instances. "Bad vibes" turned up in my spare bedroom, with no apparent triggering event in that location. I was so concerned that I tried sitting in there praying, but it was difficult. I got a friend to go in there to see if he noticed anything - which he did, but he, of course, realised that I had a reason for asking him to go in. Then I put up a mutual friend who had lost his home temporarily as a result of the 1987 storm. This friend used to recite the Offices in there as part of his prayer life, and when he was able to return home, the feeling had gone. we never asked him if he noticed anything. It was already his habit to pray that way.
And, with the same friend, I used to go to pray in a South London church which was open very late at night. On one occasion, I found it very difficult to settle into the silence. There were odd noises, and a sense of unease. As we left, my friend asked if I had noticed anything. In his case, the noises had occurred exactly at the moments when he had been "centring down" (I can't remember what words he used) and he felt it as an attack on his praying. We searched the whole place, organ loft, round behind the altar, under the altar, the lot, to make sure there was no-one there, and the only odd thing we found was a single freesia lying in the aisle by the front pew. we also checked round the outside. Nothing. We didn't tell anyone, and thought that if anything was amiss, the next day's services would probably sort it out.
I'm not convinced that demons were involved though. Unquiet dead people? I don't know.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
And, more than that, to have God allow these predatory entities to wander round causing grief to people who cannot defend themselves, without having his own entities dealing with the situation seems wrong.
As for your first comment, one could say the same about human serial killers, but there they are; as for the second, as I understand it, He does have His own entities dealing with the situation--both His own mighty legions of (unfallen) angels, and by the power of Christ working through us.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Aravis:
Has anyone any suggestions what to say or do if someone tells you, in some detail, that they have been plagued by spirits for many years?
This wasn't in the context of anything to do with church. The person had no idea whether or not I had any faith of any description. She needed someone to talk to and appeared genuinely very frightened. Mental health services have closed involvement as she won't turn up to appointments.
This is where you try to get a professional involved. Ideally you want a pastor/priest who is older (=experienced), stable, humble, loving, of strong faith, and who believes such things exist but doesn't spot them under every bush. Such a person will have connections with medical and mental health people, so if it turns out to be that sort of a thing, they can take over the effort to get her properly cared for. If it really is a spirit thing, they're equipped for that as well. But you yourself probably shouldn't be trying to cope with it on your own.
I'm sure you know this, but it takes a long time usually to get a real sense for what's going on and how best to handle it. It sounds like she needs someone knowledgeable and wise who will take the time to get to know her and make that determination only after a lot of assessment, hopefully with other professionals involved.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
As I understand it, through supporting a frightened friend, the named Diocesan person (who is not actually called an exorcist) is more usually involved in reassurance than anything spectacular. But they are senior priests, who understand the dangers of meddling with people's minds and sense of fear.
On the other hand, I have come across some quite scary (cultish?) self-appointed people who don't understand these dangers, who would be quite happy to offer vulnerable people all sorts of quack cures for supposed demons. I'm sure many people here would agree that it's best to give them a very wide berth!
Something I've seen, and don't quite understand, is that some Christians, after getting quite intense about telling everyone about how wonderful God is, then move on to frightening those people by obsessing about how they have devils and demons within them, who need to be got rid of. The message of love and hope somehow gets twisted into a message of fear and paranoia. Why does that happen? Is it due to the thrill of feeling power and control, perhaps?
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Yes, Aravis, there should be a diocesan person who might help. Have a word with your parish priest, who should know who it is, or be able to find out. They are usually very discreet and very sensible.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Ikkyu
Shipmate
# 15207
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Posted
There is something I don't understand. More than one person in this thread has mentioned the importance of belief in the existence of demons before you can deal with them or experience them. Things like "if you don't believe they exist you probably won't see them".
Or the need of finding clergy who believe that this thing can happen to deal with "possible demonic possession".
Why would belief make any difference? If something exists in the world outside of my head. I should not have to believe in it before it shows up.
Imagine if this was a trial and you had to believe the defendant is guilty before being allowed into the jury. Seems like an attempt to stack the deck.
Or maybe what is been described is a subjective phenomenon with no counterpart in the world outside our minds.
Posts: 434 | From: Arizona | Registered: Oct 2009
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
No--it's more that in order to cope effectively with something, you have to be at least open to the possibility that it exists. Otherwise you are likely to squash whatever evidence you run across into the shape of what you DO think exists, and overlook anything that hints of something different this time around. It's a pretty universal human failing. (See: Columbus and his refusal to consider the possibility that he had found something other than the Indies; the naysayers at the time germ theory began; the wee child who assumed that the man who accompanied me to church all the time was my Daddy, as that was the only category she had for related adult males; etc. etc. etc.)
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Ikkyu
Shipmate
# 15207
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
No--it's more that in order to cope effectively with something, you have to be at least open to the possibility that it exists. Otherwise you are likely to squash whatever evidence you run across into the shape of what you DO think exists, and overlook anything that hints of something different this time around. It's a pretty universal human failing. (See: Columbus and his refusal to consider the possibility that he had found something other than the Indies; the naysayers at the time germ theory began; the wee child who assumed that the man who accompanied me to church all the time was my Daddy, as that was the only category she had for related adult males; etc. etc. etc.)
But being open to the possibility that something exists is not the same as believing that something exists. I am open to the possibility of intelligent alien life for example. But that would not be my first choice for an explanation when confronted by an unknown radio emission from outer space. Only when I had exhausted all non artificial alternatives would aliens start to sound possible. In the same vein starting with an exorcist or a believer in demons before exhausting other mental health alternatives seems extremely foolish to me. And the reason it seems foolish is that we don't have any evidence for the existence of demons. At least not better evidence that that for the existence of Fairies.
And the last time it was government policy to take demons seriously it resulted in witch burning, not an example we want to repeat.
[ 09. March 2015, 03:20: Message edited by: Ikkyu ]
Posts: 434 | From: Arizona | Registered: Oct 2009
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Gamaliel, I knew Nigel Wright when he was a pastor in a very successful and famous (at the time) Baptist Church in Ansdell near Lytham St Annes. A number of us used to go to his church on occasional Sunday nights and a number of our Salvation Army youth group were baptised there (!) I remember one very good weekend where he hosted one of John Wimber's healing teams. This was a very charismatic 'signs and wonders' church.
Anyway, what you have written regarding 'anti-personality' was helpful and thought-provoking. One of the problems with a lot of supernatural or apocalyptic thinking in the church and especially in the world, is that it has entered our consciousness through medieval Roman catholic European imagery and Victorian Gothick melodrama.
It is hard to escape the demons-as-imps imagery and the equating the demonic with the ghostly, the paranormal, the 'malign influence'. Once you believe that demons are just a cold spot in an old house or an evil feeling in the corner of a pub, you've got a losing battle on your hands.
If I've missed it in the preceding threads I apologise, but Biblically (or at least in one interpretation) are not the demons the third of the angelic host that were cast down with Lucifer? If that is true then they are indeed created but are spiritual creatures, not mortal and not identifiable by appearance or 'substance' (struggling for words here!)
As to visible sightings of demons, would it not be safe to say that they might occasionally/rarely/hardly ever 'show themselves' in particular circumstances in a similar way that angels occasionally/rarely/hardly ever 'show themselves; and that these visible appearances do not reveal what they really look like (having no outward form), but change depending on the person or the circumstances?
Angelic appearances (across all the different 'types') range from Isaiah's seraphim with 6 wings, to Ezekiel's wheels within wheel's vision, to the shepherds angels with glory shining around, to the resurrection's young man in white. There is no 'angel costume' that all angels wear; they certainly do not look like blond women in a lovely dress with huge feathery wings. similarly, demons, are not of fixed imp-like appearance with obligatory pitchfork.
It might happen as you suggest Gamaliel and different cultures have different imagery because one half remembered encounter for person has led to a widespread 'this is what all demons look like all the time'.
I do agree therefore that demons are not like the hoards of orcs or goblins from Mordor ready to be deployed by the evil Satan; but I would still suggest that in a similar (but not dualistic way) demons do have individual identities akin to the angels (being of the same substance, as it were) and they are only as evident in 'the world of men' as the angels are.
But that, as we know, doesn't remove their influence, effectiveness or 'ministry' (anti-ministry?).
We do indeed fight against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
The important thing to remember, whatever we believe, is the cross has disarmed all of them and we need not be personally subject to them.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
Ikkyu, I'm not sure what you imagine there. Exorcisms are not being proposed as some kind of alternative mental health care. They may be used as something like that in the Third World, where access to mental health care is often non-existing. But that is often shading more into "spiritual healing" than exorcism proper, and born out of desperation. (And yes, arguably 1stC Palestine was "Third World" in that sense, and Jesus' exorcisms are consequently not as clearly compartmentalised.)
Anyway, exorcism is a sacramental, not a sacrament. This immediately puts it into the same spot as crossing yourself with holy water. It's significant, but it is not supposed to be a major spiritual event. Confession is the relevant sacrament here, exorcism is simply a help to get you there. Most exorcisms are not Hollywood style shocking affairs either.
But perhaps most importantly, exorcism is targeted at something specific. The main "sign" of demonic possession is a strong aversion to holy things (holy water, blessings, ...) but being subdued by "direct" invocations of Christ's authority (e.g., by showing a cross, speaking His name, ...). Thus even if you don't believe in demons at all, you could see this as an entirely "internal" affair of Christianity. Basically a special kind of Christian hysteria, that can often be treated by a relatively harmless "ritual" mostly consisting in a priest praying over the person.
Where it should get interesting is in fact where non-Christians get cured by exorcisms. You can easily explain away Christians getting cured as mild psychic problems that get expressed in a particular cultural fashion, and that respond positively to external attention lavished onto the problem in the same particular cultural fashion. But where Christians exorcise "successfully" non-Christians, that could be interesting for a sceptic. That doesn't happen in the West though, but I bet examples could be found in the Wild South...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
That is interesting, but presumably in most of those cases either the afflicted person, or someone who cares about them, has asked for help. ISTM that would put them into a similar position to that of the centurion and his servant whom Christ healed.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
And, more than that, to have God allow these predatory entities to wander round causing grief to people who cannot defend themselves, without having his own entities dealing with the situation seems wrong.
As for your first comment, one could say the same about human serial killers, but there they are; as for the second, as I understand it, He does have His own entities dealing with the situation--both His own mighty legions of (unfallen) angels, and by the power of Christ working through us.
The difference between demons and serial killers is that the latter are susceptible to observation and being dealt with by physical means - we may not be particularly good at it, is shown by the way the human powers that be shut up those who reported the behaviour of one Jimmy Saville, but the evidence is there and unarguable, in the end. Demons, however, depend entirely on the observation of individuals for detection, and if they bother people who don't believe in them cannot be recognised or dealt with. We largely don't have the tools given us to deal with the world invisible, and that is what I meant by God allowing their behaviour. If the angels are capable of sorting them out, then they shouldn't be able to bother anyone at all. If they are there, and they are destroying lives, then there is a failure of the way the world is set up.
In the recent case of the poor child Ayesha, the place I would want to look for demons - if they are about - is within the person who claimed the child was possessed. The belief in them causes more damage than they could manage by themselves, it seems to me.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Well, I do not believe there is a demonic cause for most things; but I need to ask why the Church of England - hardly a demons-under-every-stone -charismatic fellowship - has an exorcist in every diocese (so I believe).
Demons are real but not common.
Technically, each diocese has a "ministry of deliverance team". And rule one in ministry of deliverance is that if someone is complaining of weird noises in the night, you don't go in waving crucifixes and yelling "The power of Christ compels you!" - you check the plumbing first.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
A sensible article here. And the CofE's exorcism guidelines can be found of the CofE website (search 'exorcism').
[ 09. March 2015, 08:43: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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