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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The annual fake Seder
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
"For Maundy Thursday this year, our church will participate in a Passover Seder. We will recount the story of the Exodus together just as Jesus did with his disciples before he was arrested.
The service will begin at 6:30pm in the FAC. The food provided will be light so it would be best to eat beforehand."
I've been to a real Seder. You'd best NOT eat beforehand, it's a happy feast physical and spiritual and communal, a celebration in scripture and songs and laughter and light-heated chit chat and delighting in the many wonderful dishes brought for the themed pot luck. Since when do you eat before going to a feast celebration?
If you are going to do a Seder, do a Seder! (I admit, four glasses of wine is to much for me these days!)
If you are doing a fake Seder, call it by a different, more honest, name.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
I had to teach a Sunday School class about the Passover. I decided to fake a Seder. Unfortunately our local Rabi double booked so it was a DIY job. It can really be cooked in a hurry even when googling the recipes for unleven breads.
It was much more fun than a bible study. Their faces when eating the bitter herbs were priceless.
Note: those wafers make one hell of a mess when eaten by 14 kids.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
Sigh. I am going to a Seder hosted by a couple of friends, one of whom is Jewish. It turns out what I thought was as small event is having a lot of church members, including the vegetarian new minister and wife. Not exactly what I was hoping for.
Pro Tips.
If you're trying to do a Kosher meal, note that they have invented drinkable kosher wines to replace the traditional incredibly sweet ones.
Look up Sephardic (spicy) recipes for charoset rather than the Ashkenazy ones which are more like crunchy applesauce with wine.
If you use seltzer water to make matzo balls it will hurt less if you drop one on your toes.
What's more nutritious; a whole wheat matzo or the cardboard box it came in?
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
On the occasions when I have done a fake Seder meal, I have always made a point of making it a Fake Seder Meal. I incline to the view that it is a useful teaching thing, and quite good fun to do but that the Jews have the copyright on the original, and given our history of being horrible to Jews, nicking their central meal and claiming it as our own is a bit of a cheek.
That said, if you have to tell people to eat beforehand, it's probably not worth bothering.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Having relatives of the faith I can always find a proper Seder.
This year the first Seder will be on 3rd April and the second will be after sunset on 4th - so would fit in well with a Vigil service.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
Several years ago my church had one of these events and after the meal, with no warning we were treated to a Christian film called The Bridge. Horrible experience.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
Oh, that's really nasty. Yuk yuk yuk.
(Same sentiments apply to faux seders)
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
I think it can be interesting and enriching for Christians to learn more about Passover, so there's value to it. But Belle Ringer is right: it should be called a "Seder Learning Experience" or similar, and not portrayed as a real Seder meal.
There was a strong push for this kind of event in a previous church I was at. I contacted someone I knew with Christian-Jewish Dialogue, and the opinion of the group was - well, as my first paragraph.
Not a precise analogy, but: Consider a group of Chinese non-Christians wanting to learn more about Christmas dinner. You could have a learning event where they could hear table grace being said, taste typical dishes, learn about the nativity and what it means to Christians. That doesn't mean they'd be having "Christmas dinner," but there's nothing wrong with their learning more about it and what it means to those who participate in it.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
After the meal, with no warning we were treated to a Christian film called The Bridge. Horrible experience.
I've only glanced at the video: it looks like a Christian version of
the trolley problem.
And nothing to do with a Seder - that was sneaky.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
Making like Moses before he kills the Egyptian, looking this way and that, I say this, three times fast:
Fuck Fake Fucking Seders.
Ahhh. After all those tediously polite threads in Ecclesiantics and the old Mystery Worship board, I can finally say it in the way it needs to be said.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
In this version the bridge conductor is the father of a little boy. His wife is expecting and when she goes into labor, according to the parent's prearranged plan, she sends the little child out on the railroad bridge to get Dad. The sheer stupidity of the plan is the first problem with the film.
Of course, a train comes as the little boy is on the bridge and his father must decide whether or not to let his son be hit by the train or pull the lever to save him and send the passengers into the river below.
He decides to sacrifice his son and we, the viewers, see the train overtake him. We're supposed to see this as a metaphor for God sacrificing his son for all of us, but of course, the two things are different in many ways.
What really upset me about the whole thing was that, although I had asked the pastor what the evening was going to be like, all I heard was a description of the meal. Little children were there as well as a very sensitive person I had brought with me. The whole thing was an illogical, gratuitous, drama for cheap thrills.
IMHO
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I've been at a Seder learning experience once, and I found it interesting. But it was made quite clear that it wasn't the real thing.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
[QB] I think it can be interesting and enriching for Christians to learn more about Passover, so there's value to it. But Belle Ringer is right: it should be called a "Seder Learning Experience" or similar, and not portrayed as a real Seder meal./QB]
I'm calling what I'm doing with our church kids a "Passover celebration" rather than "Seder meal"-- which I think has more cultural aspects to it, would feel inauthentic for me to claim even a "fake seder".
What are shippies thoughts re "Seder learning experiences" that stress the connections to the last supper and Jesus as "passover lamb"? I'm sure our Jewish friends would not be terribly pleased re the syncretism, yet it feels authentic to the NT text and part of our history. Thoughts?
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
It's spiritual tourism. Slumming it in some ignorant recreated Disneyfied diorama. We don't know enough about 1st century Judaean ritual practices to be within a country-holler of what Jesus actually did.
Wanna go to a Seder? Wanna a Passover Celebration? A Seder Learning Experience?
Hook-up with some Jews. Get to know them well enough over the course of the year to get an actual invitation.
We've enough cultural imperialism so we know better than to cook up some deracinated do-it-yourself fapping dream.
For all the crap I serve up to Ceremoniar, lemme say, if it's not somewhere in the books then what the fuck are we doing it for?! Want to do some historico-liturgical re-enactment? Then, get historico-liturgically honest.
You wanna read something polite on the subject, take it up in Ecclesiantics.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
Yep. I have a number of Jewish friends, and often get invited to the Real Thing. If you're still able to move about easily after the noodle kugel, the chopped liver, the chicken or brisket, the mandelbrot, etc. etc. something's gone wrong in the kitchen. The church in the OP seems to have got Passover confused with one of those Oxfam Lenten Hunger Meals.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Teilhard
Shipmate
# 16342
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
It's spiritual tourism. Slumming it in some ignorant recreated Disneyfied diorama. We don't know enough about 1st century Judaean ritual practices to be within a country-holler of what Jesus actually did.
Wanna go to a Seder? Wanna a Passover Celebration? A Seder Learning Experience?
Hook-up with some Jews. Get to know them well enough over the course of the year to get an actual invitation.
We've enough cultural imperialism so we know better than to cook up some deracinated do-it-yourself fapping dream.
For all the crap I serve up to Ceremoniar, lemme say, if it's not somewhere in the books then what the fuck are we doing it for?! Want to do some historico-liturgical re-enactment? Then, get historico-liturgically honest.
You wanna read something polite on the subject, take it up in Ecclesiantics.
Getting an entire study class invited to a genuine (home and family) Passover seder would be a good trick … Good luck with that ...
Posts: 401 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Apr 2011
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Porridge: Yep. I have a number of Jewish friends, and often get invited to the Real Thing.
I think this is a difference between the US (and even the UK) and continental Europe. I have a — small — number of Jewish friends, but there are much fewer Jews in many parts of Europe than I'd like there to be.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I don't think there is anything wrong with cultural tourism, as long as it's clear that this is what it is. It only becomes cultural imperialism when it pretends to be something it is not. To be honest, I find this "You with your fake stuff; I get invited to the real thing" more than a bit snobbish.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
Our problem is we have a shared heritage with Judaism, but it's one that's interpreted differently. (To say nothing of the baggage from centuries of persecution).
The Passover-- and one Passover celebration in particular-- is part of our story, as Christians, just as it is for Jews-- but in different ways. We celebrate a Passover of sorts every time we have communion. And we celebrate it in ways that might be offensive to a Jew. That's part of our story as well.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
It's spiritual tourism.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Good way of putting it.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teilhard:
Getting an entire study class invited to a genuine (home and family) Passover seder would be a good trick … Good luck with that ...
Right. You want to unload the entire tour bus into the middle of the indigenous village and pretend as though you're having an authentic experience. Just because it's a convenient way to wedge your curriculum onto things doesn't make it right. You want tchotchkas from your spiritual tourism? Try Amazon. You want to learn the Jewish experience of the Exodus, then you damned well better be prepared to shut up and be a small minority. quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I have a — small — number of Jewish friends, but there are much fewer Jews in many parts of Europe than I'd like there to be.
Right. That gaping, mid-20th-century hole shot through the middle of European Jewry might have something to do with it.
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I don't think there is anything wrong with cultural tourism
Fine. Defend that. The accusation is spiritual tourism.
quote:
To be honest, I find this "You with your fake stuff; I get invited to the real thing" more than a bit snobbish.
Tough shit. See above to remember what happened to all the Jews in Europe. Exodus/Egypt. Exile/Babylon. Shoah/Europe. It's intellectually dishonest and liturgically dishonest to go anthropologically rummaging around among the Seder artifacts looking at each curio exclaiming, Gee! What does this tell us about Jesus!?
Jesus! Where's leo when, for once, he could be useful?
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Our problem is we have a shared heritage with Judaism
But that doesn't mean we get to retroject a Christian image onto a post-2nd- or 3rd-century Jewish festival with 1700 years of its own development.
[ 27. March 2015, 05:40: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
The best analogy would be a group of tourists from a non-Christian land who come to your church service and observe and take photographs.
Unfortunately their numbers have grown so much that there isn't room in the Church for all of them.
Not a problem, one of the visiting groups has an enthusiast who's willing to dress in the appropriate clothing of a priest and reproduce the service in the Church for his tour group. He might not get it exactly right, but it will make for great photo opportunities.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
and given our history of being horrible to Jews, nicking their central meal and claiming it as our own is a bit of a cheek.
That said, if you have to tell people to eat beforehand, it's probably not worth bothering.
Given we've nicked their God and their scriptures and claim them as our own, surely a meal is a mere bagatelle.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
It's spiritual tourism. Slumming it in some ignorant recreated Disneyfied diorama. We don't know enough about 1st century Judaean ritual practices to be within a country-holler of what Jesus actually did.
Does Micky Mouse or Donald Duck get to ask the children's questions?
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
Christ gave us a new ritual, the Eucharist. Fake seders are fad.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
The Silent Acolyte: Right. That gaping, mid-20th-century hole shot through the middle of European Jewry might have something to do with it.
Yes of course. Good that you picked this up from my post.
quote:
The Silent Acolyte: Fine. Defend that. The accusation is spiritual tourism.
Whatever. It's already some time ago. A good friend of mine was a minister and had been living and working among Jews for all of his life in an ecumenical setting. After his retirement he went on to do voluntary work with the Lutheran church in Brazil, where he worked together with me.
On passover, he invited a couple of friends because he wanted to explain us something about Seder. He said very explicitly at the beginning and at various points during the evening "This isn't a Seder we are doing. The Seder belongs to the Jews. We're just trying to understand more about it."
So he explained some things about it, but also gave practical examples. I remember eating the bitter herbs. He also showed us some 'artifacts'. He especially tried to make us understand how important the Seder is to Jews in relation to what happened to them in Exodus/Egypt. Exile/Babylon. Shoah/Europe
No-one took pictures to show to others "Look how cool I am; I am in a Seder". And this wasn't about what it tells us about Jesus at all. In fact, I don't think His name was even mentioned.
Of course, I would have preferred to have been invited to a real Seder. But that wasn't an option. There are a number of Jews in Brazil, but not in the place I was living.
In my view, it was done with a lot of respect. I found it a valuable experience, and I have learned a lot. I think it is more your prejudice at what happens at these events that is showing here.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
The Silent Acolyte: Right. That gaping, mid-20th-century hole shot through the middle of European Jewry might have something to do with it.
Yes of course. Good that you picked this up from my post.
quote:
The Silent Acolyte: Fine. Defend that. The accusation is spiritual tourism.
Whatever. It's already some time ago. A good friend of mine was a minister and had been living and working among Jews for all of his life in an ecumenical setting. After his retirement he went on to do voluntary work with the Lutheran church in Brazil, where he worked together with me.
On passover, he invited a couple of friends because he wanted to explain us something about Seder. He said very explicitly at the beginning and at various points during the evening "This isn't a Seder we are doing. The Seder belongs to the Jews. We're just trying to understand more about it."
So he explained some things about it, but also gave practical examples. I remember eating the bitter herbs. He also showed us some 'artifacts'. He especially tried to make us understand how important the Seder is to Jews in relation to what happened to them in Exodus/Egypt. Exile/Babylon. Shoah/Europe
No-one took pictures to show to others "Look how cool I am; I am in a Seder". And this wasn't about what it tells us about Jesus at all. In fact, I don't think His name was even mentioned.
Of course, I would have preferred to have been invited to a real Seder. But that wasn't an option. There are a number of Jews in Brazil, but not in the place I was living.
In my view, it was done with a lot of respect. I found it a valuable experience, and I have learned a lot. I think it is more your prejudice at what happens at these events that is showing here.
That wouldn’t be Spiritual Tourism as I understand it, more of a respectful attempt to put things into context and create understanding of something outside your own culture.
Not all the events I’ve seen advertised are like that. Some churches have incorporated Seders and Passover meals into the run up to their Easter celebrations and present them as The Real Deal ™. Even though they’re presided over by someone who is about as Jewish as I am (ie Not At All), who’ve read a few books or watched a few videos. And bought a few Jewish religious artefacts off eBay to make it more “authentic”. Those kinds of things are what I’d describe as “spiritual tourism”. (The Silent Acolyte may be working to a different defination).
If a church wants to do something to help people prepare for Easter, there are some perfectly good Christian traditions they could use without nicking someone else’s. So, simple Maundy Thursday supper and foot washing, followed by something on Good Friday, break on Saturday and Easter Sunday. Job done.
Tubbs
[ 27. March 2015, 11:51: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
The best analogy would be a group of tourists from a non-Christian land who come to your church service and observe and take photographs.
Some of the traditionally black churches of Harlem, New York City, are dealing with busloads of tourists who "come looking for gospel music...They come looking for a show."
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
I've been to one, based upon a liturgy produced by the Churches Ministry among Jewish people, made for Christians with a Jewish background and used by us. I enjoyed it.
Regardless of ones feelings about the CMJ (I know there to be many objections to their work), isn't it a good that that Christians with a Jewish background have such a liturgy?
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
The best analogy would be a group of tourists from a non-Christian land who come to your church service and observe and take photographs.
Some of the traditionally black churches of Harlem, New York City, are dealing with busloads of tourists who "come looking for gospel music...They come looking for a show."
A helpful analogy. There was a similar fad here in the LA for awhile of "gospel brunches". Restaurants would serve up eggs and waffles while real choirs from real churches sang real gospel spirituals. I went to just one, and while the food and music was delightful, it just felt so wrong to be flagging down the waiter to bring you another mimosa and chatting loudly about your latest development deal in the middle of someone's worship service. Thankfully, as this is LA, the fad quickly passed.
[ 27. March 2015, 14:07: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
The best analogy would be a group of tourists from a non-Christian land who come to your church service and observe and take photographs.
Unfortunately their numbers have grown so much that there isn't room in the Church for all of them.
Not a problem, one of the visiting groups has an enthusiast who's willing to dress in the appropriate clothing of a priest and reproduce the service in the Church for his tour group. He might not get it exactly right, but it will make for great photo opportunities.
Not a problem?! Words almost fail me. Reproduce the service?! In the church?! Great photo opportunities?! Please come back and tell me you're not serious and that you've suckered me in with xerotic wit to make Robertson Davies blush.
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
Does Micky Mouse or Donald Duck get to ask the children's questions?
I'm guesing, Goofy. Or, maybe Porky Pig.
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
A good friend of mine was a minister and had been living and working among Jews for all of his life in an ecumenical setting. After his retirement he went on to do voluntary work with the Lutheran church in Brazil, where he worked together with me.
On passover, he invited a couple of friends because he wanted to explain us something about Seder. He said very explicitly at the beginning and at various points during the evening "This isn't a Seder we are doing. The Seder belongs to the Jews. We're just trying to understand more about it."
So he explained some things about it, but also gave practical examples. I remember eating the bitter herbs. He also showed us some 'artifacts'. He especially tried to make us understand how important the Seder is to Jews in relation to what happened to them in Exodus/Egypt. Exile/Babylon. Shoah/Europe
No-one took pictures to show to others "Look how cool I am; I am in a Seder". And this wasn't about what it tells us about Jesus at all. In fact, I don't think His name was even mentioned.
Of course, I would have preferred to have been invited to a real Seder. But that wasn't an option. There are a number of Jews in Brazil, but not in the place I was living.
In my view, it was done with a lot of respect. I found it a valuable experience, and I have learned a lot.
This doesn't seem a fake Seder at all. It sounds like a sensitive exploration, not a sham reenactment, like those described, especially in Tubbs post, and elsewhere.
Regarding Rosa Winkel's raising of Seder activities of Christians with a Jewish background, it's probably best to remain silent, except perhaps, when they bleed into the parish halls filled with curious Christians not of Jewish background.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
The best analogy would be a group of tourists from a non-Christian land who come to your church service and observe and take photographs.
Unfortunately their numbers have grown so much that there isn't room in the Church for all of them.
Not a problem, one of the visiting groups has an enthusiast who's willing to dress in the appropriate clothing of a priest and reproduce the service in the Church for his tour group. He might not get it exactly right, but it will make for great photo opportunities.
Not a problem?! Words almost fail me. Reproduce the service?! In the church?! Great photo opportunities?! Please come back and tell me you're not serious and that you've suckered me in with xerotic wit to make Robertson Davies blush.
Check your irony meter. I do believe you've been "suckered <snip> in with xerotic wit to make Robertson Davies blush." (Unless I need to check my irony meter on your response. ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif) )
I found Palimpsest's description totally wicked and delicious. ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
An unhellish parallel for you all.
Our church and the local Parish church have good relations with the local Mosque. Several of us have visited it on different occasions.
We arranged to invite the Muslims to a "demonstration service", to show them how Christians worship. This included hymns, prayers, responsive liturgy, Bible readings and a sermon. It lasted about 30 minutes and was followed by tea, cake and questions.
We told the Muslims who came that they were only expected to observe, rather than join in. But, in fact, some did.
This was a "real" service (albeit a rather artificial one) and it did, I think, offer a genuine educational opportunity - as going to Friday prayers would be for us.
[ 27. March 2015, 14:45: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
The Silent Acolyte: This doesn't seem a fake Seder at all.
That's why I called it a Seder learning experience. I don't think we gave it a name at the time, but it was about Seder, we learned something and it was an experience, so it seems appropriate. Seder learning experiences were included in your rant.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
I've been to one, based upon a liturgy produced by the Churches Ministry among Jewish people, made for Christians with a Jewish background and used by us. I enjoyed it.
Regardless of ones feelings about the CMJ (I know there to be many objections to their work), isn't it a good that that Christians with a Jewish background have such a liturgy?
I've only been to one such service, and it was led by a Jewish convert to Christianity. That was fine by me as it was done in a very similar way to the service that Le Roc describes.
The following year, when it was suggested that we do the same again but led by one of the Ministers using a CMJ liturgy, I wrote a very stiff letter expressing my opinions about how inappropriate it all was. Apparently, I wasn't the only one as they didn't do it.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
...the Real Thing. If you're still able to move about easily after the noodle kugel, the chopped liver, the chicken or brisket, the mandelbrot, etc. etc. something's gone wrong in the kitchen.
The church in the OP seems to have got Passover confused with one of those Oxfam Lenten Hunger Meals.
This. Turning a celebratory feast into a penitent fast is what bugs me most. Total distortion of what a Seder is!
Some synagogues have pot luck Seders and charge outsiders a fee ($15) to come participate. Not widely advertised, outsiders welcome but not sought. The one I went to requested "reservations" because they need to know how much food to prepare, I suspect they would reject a busload because so many outsiders would change the "extended family" feel of the evening.
Comparing the one church "seder" and the one synagogue Seder I've been to, two of the huge differences were (1) food - sparse vs plentiful, and (2) mood - anticipating suffering & death vs celebrating God's provision of life.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Enough of the fake Eucharists pretending to be reduced seders! Christ our Passover indeed! And don't get me started on how you all hijack the Exodus story at every Easter Vigil.
Damn; seems we've already been up to our necks in this 'spiritual tourism' outfit for the last 2000 years.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Fine. Defend that. The accusation is spiritual tourism.
Tourism is tourism. Whether it is good or bad depends on the way in which it is conducted and the spirit in which one engages in it. On the occasion on which I got to spend a couple of weeks swanning around the Galapagos I came away with a sense of my comparative ignorance about the natural world and a sense of the the beauty and wonder of nature. None of which makes me St. Francis of Assisi, but no damage done. Now if I had come back and announced that I had done the Galapagos and that I was the second coming of Chuck Darwin, clearly, I would be a bit of a tit but that particular shortcoming would have gone out with me and returned to me. Now clearly my two weeks in the Galapagos was no substitute for living there or for studying for a degree in Evolutionary Biology but as long as I knew that it did no harm and might have done some good.
The same thing, to my mind, applies to Spiritual Tourism. A Fake Seder Meal(TM) is, obviously, not the same thing as a proper Seder and to pass it off, as such, would be bad and wrong. But if it opens peoples eyes to the fact that there is this thing called Judaism and that we, as Christians, owe it certain debts then it is no bad thing. Probably there are Christians who think that putting on a Fake Seder Meal makes them the second coming of Abraham J. Herschel but then there are Christians like Ad Orientam so hopefully they will cancel one another out. Preferably in a thermonuclear explosion.
In any event, I was responsible for introducing it in two village churches where the attendance for Maundy Thursday and Good Friday was 3 people at each service and when I left it was up to 30-something. Being a complete fucking tart, if Fake Seder Meals can get people to take our Lord's Passion seriously then I am going with Fake Seder Meals. If the local Synagogue wants to retaliate with Fake Eucharists then I have a copy of the latest translation of the Roman Rite, which is just what they need. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
ISTM that BCE and early first century Judaism had two offspring (rabbinic Judaism and Christianity) which have always been in conflict about which of them is the 'legitimate' descendant. There is evidence for that argument within the NT canon itself.
My main reservations about churches using the Seder, after issues of cultural and religious sensitivity, are that the Gospels are not unequivocally clear that the Last Supper was a Passover, and that Seder of rabbinic Judaism may not be a good guide to what Jesus shared with his disciples.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
My main reservations about churches using the Seder, after issues of cultural and religious sensitivity, are that the Gospels are not unequivocally clear that the Last Supper was a Passover
Even if one is convinced the Last Supper was not a Passover, the NT calls Jesus the "Passover lamb" in several places-- making the Passover connection significant to Christians. Indeed, if in fact the date was moved in the telling from the day of preparation (as per John) to the Passover (as per synoptics) that's probably why. Which IMHO is reason enough to discuss what would be a respectful & appropriate way for Christians to mark that connection.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
Not being Hellish here, but I think this is certainly a good opportunity to contemplate what we believe about the connections between Jesus and Judaism (before and during Jesus' time on Earth 2000 years ago, as well as now), the Eucharist and the Seder, whether and/or how the events of the last 2000 years should or do affect these things, and so on.
My own conscience is clear about these things (not least of which because I'm Jewish by blood) but perhaps this opens up a lot of unresolved doctrinal issues for a lot of people.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
The best analogy would be a group of tourists from a non-Christian land who come to your church service and observe and take photographs.
Unfortunately their numbers have grown so much that there isn't room in the Church for all of them.
Not a problem, one of the visiting groups has an enthusiast who's willing to dress in the appropriate clothing of a priest and reproduce the service in the Church for his tour group. He might not get it exactly right, but it will make for great photo opportunities.
Not a problem?! Words almost fail me. Reproduce the service?! In the church?! Great photo opportunities?! Please come back and tell me you're not serious and that you've suckered me in with xerotic wit to make Robertson Davies blush.
Sorry. The intent was not to sucker you in, but to point out how obnoxious the original was. I can't imagine a church allowing this, unless they were desperately poor.
quote:
Regarding Rosa Winkel's raising of Seder activities of Christians with a Jewish background, it's probably best to remain silent, except perhaps, when they bleed into the parish halls filled with curious Christians not of Jewish background.
Christians of Jewish origin and mixed marriages lead to compromises that make sense for the those involved. When it's Christians who are proselytizing Jews and trying to claim it's all Judaism, it becomes more sinister.
Again, as a comparison and not a serious proposal; how about Church services specifically for Atheists of Christian origin?
[ 27. March 2015, 19:49: Message edited by: Palimpsest ]
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
In any event, I was responsible for introducing it in two village churches where the attendance for Maundy Thursday and Good Friday was 3 people at each service and when I left it was up to 30-something. Being a complete fucking tart, if Fake Seder Meals can get people to take our Lord's Passion seriously then I am going with Fake Seder Meals. If the local Synagogue wants to retaliate with Fake Eucharists then I have a copy of the latest translation of the Roman Rite, which is just what they need.
If boosting attendance is your main goal, why stop there in being a tart? How about some Prostitutes like those in the Temple of Ashtoreth? You'll get crowds you've never seen in Church before.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
In any event, I was responsible for introducing it in two village churches where the attendance for Maundy Thursday and Good Friday was 3 people at each service and when I left it was up to 30-something. Being a complete fucking tart, if Fake Seder Meals can get people to take our Lord's Passion seriously then I am going with Fake Seder Meals. If the local Synagogue wants to retaliate with Fake Eucharists then I have a copy of the latest translation of the Roman Rite, which is just what they need.
If boosting attendance is your main goal, why stop there in being a tart? How about some Prostitutes like those in the Temple of Ashtoreth? You'll get crowds you've never seen in Church before.
An apt analogy. Obviously drawing on the Jewish traditions which formed our Lord's devotion to the Almighty, in an attempt to evangelise people is exactly like turning one's church into a knocking shop dedicated to a pagan deity.
Tosser.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
There was an interesting Nova episode on this week about the origins of Judaism. The archaeology shows that the pre-temple Israelites were often worshiping Canaanite Ashtoreth as the spouse of God.
So don't think of it as pagan, think of it as proto-Judaic custom that you're repurposing, just like you're repurposing Judaism in the quest for box office receipts.
The episode did have me pondering how much the role of Mary picked up from Ahtoreth worship. There's a similar question in the Jewish folk traditions about Miriam.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I went to a couple of Seders in the 1980s held with the premise as stated above - to do what the gang did at the last supper.
I wouldn't go again. My main objection is supercessionism, the idea that Christianity replaces Judaism.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
Actually, and again I'm bring more Purgatorial here, if the non-Christians from some faroff land wanted to do their own reenactment of the Christian Eucharist in their own place (not in an actual church), then they can do whatever the heck they want, and who knows, maybe God would work through it somehow and do them good. It would not offend me in the slightest.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I went to a couple of Seders in the 1980s held with the premise as stated above - to do what the gang did at the last supper.
I wouldn't go again. My main objection is supercessionism, the idea that Christianity replaces Judaism.
Certainly that's unacceptable, as is bait-and-switch evangelism. (Although folks who think getting Jews to come to a lamely austere pseudo-seder will be an effective evangelism tool is more pathetic than outrageous).
But I think we've seen here some examples that suggest, at least to me, that it's possible to do a Passover learning experience that avoids both those dangers.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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