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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Trigger Warnings
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
I think part of the problem that people have or don't have with "trigger warnings" is about nomenclature.
In general,I would agree with others upthread who have suggested that "Content Note: blah blah blah" might be a better term in most cases - like on news sites or on college papers. It's a kindness to those who might be struggling with something, and provides a handy summary for those who might not feel like reading something heavy that day who might like to come back to it without making people feel like they're being treated like children.
The context in which the phrase "Trigger Warning" seems to me to be useful is more specific, possibly best illustrated by example as it's more nebulous.
So, imagine in this example you're browsing a Pro-Ana (definition on wiki) website. Some threads or sections might talk about specifics of people's lightest weight and how they got there or specific details about cutting, and often these might be prefixed by a "Trigger Warning" for those who are trying to get better.
In that case, it's a context where a lot of the people may well have very similar triggers, and where some of them may not want to continue in the behaviours that might be triggered, while others are not at that point yet and are not actively seeking help or treatment. The nature of a lot of Pro Ana sites is that there is a mixture of those there, some seeking support but not wanting to "fix" their eating disorder, while others might be starting some type of treatment or counselling, but still looking for understanding. In that case, the specific meaning of the phrase "Trigger Warning" is a useful shorthand, and might meaningfully be used rather than a more formal-sounding "Content Note: _ " thing.
Does that make sense?
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
So, imagine in this example you're browsing a Pro-Ana (definition on wiki) website.
I'm not sure this is a good example. Pro-ana sites are as toxic as fuck to anyone with anorexia or body-weight issues. Any trigger warnings you might find there will be about as useful as a packet of plasters taped to the side of a hand grenade.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
- but in the context of what those sites are and what they're about, it's where people are at, and the "This might be a bit triggery" or Trigger Warning" flags will be understood by pretty much all there, whereas on a website with a wider clientele some might not see the point of them and find it annoying to be "warned", but not so much to see a "content note".
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Almost every mental health organisation who's said anything about pro-ana sites has come down on the side of 'nope'. Yes, it might be 'where they're at', but 'where they're at' is not a good place, and trigger warnings there merely reinforce the illusion of control over an illness which, according to some, has the highest mortality rate of any mental illness.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
I tend to use 'content note' myself.
t
“Content note” I could live with.
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
The thing with PTSD is that all sorts of things can be triggers, and you can't predict them. Little innocent things that are associated with the trauma in the person's mind - and the longer the trauma lasted, the more such triggers there will be. It would be impossible to put a trigger warning on everything that could potentially trigger. I wouldn't say people with PTSD shouldn't be studying - I studied literature when I had PTSD, and I loved it. Sure, things triggered me, but that was the case whatever I was doing. Triggers pop up all the time. The things that triggered me weren't things that you would expect, and would have been impossible to predict. I don't think trigger warnings would have been useful to me. But I can see the value of trigger warnings on emotive subjects - not so much because reading about them may trigger, but because when studying literature, you are then put into groups to talk about what you read, and being unexpectedly triggered in a group situation can be difficult.
This.
Since I have experienced PTSD myself, and share the experience Fineline describes, I would favor a different approach to the general problem of (A) assigning readings which contain potentially disturbing material and (B) educating students by assigning such material.
Where I taught, students with issues that affect their learning would get Reasonable Accommodation Plans. PTSD is an actual disorder, and it can certainly affect someone’s learning. People likely to have their learning experience(s) derailed by something they might read can have this noted in the RAP. It is then the student’s responsibility to alert instructors about these issues.
This obviates the potential problems raised by plastering multiple warnings on multiple readings, which can (A) be abused by students intent on avoiding work – where I taught, there were plenty of these; (B) arousing the unhealthier forms of curiosity which could lead to people sort of self-inducing the experience Kelly had with the book, described above, and thereby making so-called trigger warnings do the exact opposite of what they were meant for; (C) leading well-meaning students to seek from instructors guidance the instructors are in no position to give.
In short, issue RAPs where needed; explain to affected students how to make appropriate use of these; and stop the general labeling of reading material with warnings.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
When I was in college sixty years ago, a history professor gave a detailed description of what was done to people who were drawn and quartered. I don't know what effect this had on any other student, but it disturbed me very much.
I couldn't stop thinking, not only of the people treated this way, but the people who did it. How could anyone stand to watch it?
I'm fairly sure the professor would never have said that if he had known the effect it would have on me, and possibly other students. I still haven't decided whether he was wrong to say that.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
I'm fairly sure the professor would never have said that if he had known the effect it would have on me, and possibly other students. I still haven't decided whether he was wrong to say that.
He probably knew what he was doing, had done it before to all his other classes, and would continue to do so until he retired. Whether he was doing it deliberately to squick people out, or doing it to bring home the point that this was a form of execution was also mass entertainment for the assembled crowd, is anyone's guess.
But unless you'd previously attended a public execution where mutilation was a major part of the sentence, I don't think the material can be described as 'triggering'.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
The thing with PTSD is that all sorts of things can be triggers, and you can't predict them. Little innocent things that are associated with the trauma in the person's mind - and the longer the trauma lasted, the more such triggers there will be. It would be impossible to put a trigger warning on everything that could potentially trigger. I wouldn't say people with PTSD shouldn't be studying - I studied literature when I had PTSD, and I loved it. Sure, things triggered me, but that was the case whatever I was doing. Triggers pop up all the time. The things that triggered me weren't things that you would expect, and would have been impossible to predict. I don't think trigger warnings would have been useful to me. But I can see the value of trigger warnings on emotive subjects - not so much because reading about them may trigger, but because when studying literature, you are then put into groups to talk about what you read, and being unexpectedly triggered in a group situation can be difficult.
The first time I ever saw the phrase " trigger warning" was on a tichtillomania forum, and I read it as a warning that reading about hair pulling incidents would tempt someone to drift into that behavior. So yeah, " trigger" means something a lot more clinical to me than "content that an average human being might find upsetting."
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The mistake to make is to treat the course as therapy. Tutors are not therapists.
I don't get the connection between trigger warnings and treating a course as therapy. Was there a suggestion that creating trigger warnings means tutors are acting as therapists, or encouraging students to treat the course as therapy?
Another example of trigger warnings, which perhaps more people can relate to, often occurs in health care related degrees and courses. When there is a lecture about bereavement or dying, then the students are warned beforehand that if they think they might find the lecture difficult they can talk to the tutor and arrange not to attend (they'd have to read the material separately). There is a general understanding (probably because most people experience the death of a loved one at some time) that if someone has experienced a recent bereavement, they are likely to find a talk about death difficult.
The term 'trigger warning' isn't used in this example, but that is essentially what it is - the talk may trigger painful emotions that are not yet processed. The warning doesn't mean the course is therapy, or that students see it as such, or that tutors are therapists. And no one sees people who opt out of attending the lecture due to a recent bereavement as 'delicate little snowflakes'. People tend to understand this sort of 'triggering'. Triggers due to PTSD are fairly similar, although often more complex, and long lasting. Brain and body are changed by it, so it is a physical reaction too.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
I don't want to make the distinction between 'real' reactions and ... other sorts. Having been recently bereaved, I found listening to the tributes to Charles Kennedy surprisingly difficult, though not inexplicably so, given my circumstances. So I'm not going to tell anyone that their reaction to something within the normal bounds of human experience is to be treated lightly. Your example of medical training is a good one. All doctors need to know how to handle breaking bad news to patients and relatives, and when the course is scheduled can't take into account the life circumstances of all their students.
From what I've heard and read, much of the debate is happening in US universities over courses and content that, to be honest, are at least once removed from matters of life and death. This is the statement from the American Association of University Professors, and includes:
quote:
The classroom is not the appropriate venue to treat PTSD, which is a medical condition that requires serious medical treatment. Trigger warnings are an inadequate and diversionary response. Medical research suggests that triggers for individuals can be unpredictable, dependent on networks of association. So color, taste, smell, and sound may lead to flashbacks and panic attacks as often as the mention of actual forms of violence such as rape and war.
And later:
quote:
Instead, as with other disabilities, a student diagnosed with PTSD should, in advance, agree on a plan for treatment with the relevant health advisors who, in some cases, may want to alert teachers to the presence of a trauma victim in their classroom. The Americans with Disabilities Act contains recommendations for reasonable accommodation to be made on an individual basis. This should be done without affecting other students’ exposure to material that has educational value.
Which fits Porridge's response here.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
The classroom is not the appropriate venue to treat PTSD, which is a medical condition that requires serious medical treatment. Trigger warnings are an inadequate and diversionary response. Medical research suggests that triggers for individuals can be unpredictable, dependent on networks of association. So color, taste, smell, and sound may lead to flashbacks and panic attacks as often as the mention of actual forms of violence such as rape and war.
I definitely agree that triggers can't be predicted, and can be incredibly varied - that's what I said in an earlier post. I'm just not sure why giving trigger warnings is seen as treatment for PTSD. It would never occur to me to see a trigger warning as therapy. Surely it would be more accurate for lecturers to simply say that students can't possibly expect the warnings to cover every type of trigger, but that they will warn about specific emotive topics.
quote:
And later:
Instead, as with other disabilities, a student diagnosed with PTSD should, in advance, agree on a plan for treatment with the relevant health advisors who, in some cases, may want to alert teachers to the presence of a trauma victim in their classroom. The Americans with Disabilities Act contains recommendations for reasonable accommodation to be made on an individual basis. This should be done without affecting other students’ exposure to material that has educational value.
This also makes a lot of sense. On the other hand, I imagine a lot of traumatised people are not seeking support, may not even know they have PTSD, or may not want their condition/experience revealed to lecturers (for all kinds of reasons). Of course, they can't then expect individualised accommodation, but may appreciate general warnings about things like rape/death/suicide/violence. I'm not sure how that would affect other students' exposure to the material - unless it is a spoiler, I suppose. A trigger warning surely doesn't mean the book isn't studied. But it would be quite a lot of extra work for lecturers to think about which warnings need to be applied to which works, and it wouldn't be an exact science, even with specific criteria.
Personally, I'd think it would be more relevant with regard to seminars, rather than the actual reading - to warn that in a seminar, the topic being discussed is an emotive one. Maybe more applicable to health and social care than to literature, because literature seminars tend to be about a whole book, rather than a topic. But then, of course, even if you are covering a non-emotive topic, you never know what direction a discussion may take. So I can definitely see the wisdom in clarifying that trigger warnings are limited and cannot guarantee protection from triggers. I just don't see that as meaning that trigger warnings are being seen as therapy, or that they should never be used.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Part of my reaction above relates to things as discussed in this article
quote:
...students complained that he exposed them to ‘offensive’ texts written by Edward Said and Mark Twain,” he says. “That was enough to get me to comb through my syllabi and cut out anything I could see upsetting a coddled undergrad, texts ranging from Upton Sinclair to Maureen Tkacik...
I hold two adjunct academic appointments; the scariness of students and interns wanting to be warned or for certain things to be left out completely is a problem.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
The first time I ever saw the phrase " trigger warning" was on a tichtillomania forum, and I read it as a warning that reading about hair pulling incidents would tempt someone to drift into that behavior. So yeah, " trigger" means something a lot more clinical to me than "content that an average human being might find upsetting."
Yep. This is also a great example of how trigger warnings can be very useful within a specialist community but not be reasonably expected outside it.
There are so many possible triggers for different types of problem. Common causes of PTSD include sexual violence, serious road accidents, mugging, robbery, prolonged violence, severe neglect, witnessing violent deaths and military combat. These aren't unusual events. I'm also pretty sure I know people who developed PTSD from serious bullying. Then there are all the (perfectly legitimate) non-PTSD difficulties people can face, from tichtillomania and addictions to bereavement and body-image issues.
Trigger warnings or contact notes can't reasonably cover all these. Personally I think it's fair for students to ask for a general warning about detailed scenes of rape, and probably extreme violence (e.g. graphic torture) too. Beyond that, I'm sceptical - books are packed with situations that people might find triggering.
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Part of my reaction above relates to things as discussed in this article
quote:
...students complained that he exposed them to ‘offensive’ texts written by Edward Said and Mark Twain,” he says. “That was enough to get me to comb through my syllabi and cut out anything I could see upsetting a coddled undergrad, texts ranging from Upton Sinclair to Maureen Tkacik...
I hold two adjunct academic appointments; the scariness of students and interns wanting to be warned or for certain things to be left out completely is a problem.
Yes, it is definitely a problem if lecturers are losing their positions over it. The students can't hold the lecturers responsible for 'triggering' them - as has been pointed out several times, it is impossible to predict all triggers.
Does this necessarily mean that incorporating trigger warnings must necessarily be a problem though? What about if it comes with the disclaimer that lecturers can't possibly predict all triggers, and can't be held responsible for symptoms of PTSD from previous trauma, and that of course students must seek professional help for PTSD, but that out of courtesy lecturers will warn for certain obvious potentially-distressing things?
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
That's ridiculous. On the other hand, is there any evidence that this is more a widespread problem than a panic by a few foolish university administrators who don't know how to support their own faculty?
Some. There seem to be a fair number of people who seem to believe that faculty and administrators have some magical ability to make campus a completely safe place in a dangerous world, and they're bringing lawsuits when things don't go their way.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
It's only a matter of time before some student does sue a university over some (possibly quite unforeseen by any reasonable person) allegedly offensive comment or incident in a classical text which allegedly traumatised them, at which point universities will go into litigation avoidance mode, with who knows what consequences for scholarship.
You do have a point. There is a general comment worth making about "litigation avoidance mode", which is that it tends to be about avoiding litigation, not about avoiding a loss.
Suing someone does not mean that you'll win the suit, and in fact some suits are simply ridiculous and as a matter of law could be beaten quite easily.
However, it's actually very difficult to prevent people from starting litigation, even litigation without any merit. Courts have power to do something against a serial pest who keeps bringing baseless claims, but that's about it.
And the problem is this doesn't gel well with fears about being taken to court. For a lot of organisations, the fear doesn't end up being about losing a particular court case, it ends up being a general fear about having a court case.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Part of my reaction above relates to things as discussed in this article
A different kind of warning... that website is giving my copy of Internet Explorer heart attacks for some reason.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
It's only a matter of time before some student does sue a university over some (possibly quite unforeseen by any reasonable person) allegedly offensive comment or incident in a classical text which allegedly traumatised them, at which point universities will go into litigation avoidance mode, with who knows what consequences for scholarship.
And this has what to do with trigger warnings? If this happens it will happen with or without trigger warnings. If there is some tidal cultural shift that makes this more likely to happen now than it was in the first 700ish years of the existence of universities, then trigger warnings are a symptom, not an etiology.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
It's only a matter of time before some student does sue a university over some (possibly quite unforeseen by any reasonable person) allegedly offensive comment or incident in a classical text which allegedly traumatised them, at which point universities will go into litigation avoidance mode, with who knows what consequences for scholarship.
And this has what to do with trigger warnings?
The fact that there is now an assumption of a right to be warned, and of university authorities'
duty to provide that warning.
I wouldn't be surprised to hear that such litigation has already been attempted.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
When I was in college sixty years ago, a history professor gave a detailed description of what was done to people who were drawn and quartered. I don't know what effect this had on any other student, but it disturbed me very much.
I couldn't stop thinking, not only of the people treated this way, but the people who did it. How could anyone stand to watch it?
I'm fairly sure the professor would never have said that if he had known the effect it would have on me, and possibly other students. I still haven't decided whether he was wrong to say that.
Moo
That sort of thing is not uncommon amongst secondary history teachers, because it has a certain appeal to the (especially male) adolescent mentality, but I am surprised to hear of a tertiary lecturer doing it.
I tried to avoid it because it trivialises and debases the subject.
It is sometimes necessary to mention things such as torture, but not to pruriently sensationalise them.
[ 05. June 2015, 05:03: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
Trigger warnings can be triggering for old reactionaries.
Historically, it has been reactionaries who have supported limitations on the maximal diffusion of knowledge, and progressives who have opposed them.
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
the self-defeating nature of your argument that I outlined above.
All you "outlined above" was a piece of sophistry.
The appropriate responses for a university to make are to abolish trigger warnings because they are dangerous and demeaning, and to make it clear that any litigation over their absence will be vigorously contested.
quote:
I don't think I'm the one begging the question.
People's complaints are evidence that they are upset for some reason, which could be purely ideological.
It is not evidence that they have been damaged.
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
OK, Kaplan. I'm done with this thread. You don't seem to think people's feelings are as important as imaginary lawsuits, and I'm clearly not going to persuade you otherwise.
t
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
And this has what to do with trigger warnings? If this happens it will happen with or without trigger warnings. If there is some tidal cultural shift that makes this more likely to happen now than it was in the first 700ish years of the existence of universities, then trigger warnings are a symptom, not an etiology.
These are my thoughts too. These are surely two different issues here - the issue of whether some kind of trigger warning can be helpful and constructively applied within certain settings, and the issue of people unrealistically expecting trigger warnings to protect them from ever being triggered, and suing when this doesn't happen. The latter shouldn't prevent us considering the former.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
I am thinking more about this:
quote:
Instead, as with other disabilities, a student diagnosed with PTSD should, in advance, agree on a plan for treatment with the relevant health advisors who, in some cases, may want to alert teachers to the presence of a trauma victim in their classroom. The Americans with Disabilities Act contains recommendations for reasonable accommodation to be made on an individual basis. This should be done without affecting other students’ exposure to material that has educational value.
Now, I'm in the UK, so can't speak for the US, but when I studied recently, I was part of a disability implementation group, to try to help the uni become more accessible in general to people with disabilities. And one thing we talked about a lot was the fact that things that help people with disabilities are often helpful for the entire class. And very helpful for people who, for one reason or another, haven't felt safe to disclose their disability.
We were talking about things like lecturers providing the powerpoint presentations to the class in advance of the lecture - the lecturers really didn't want to do that, often because (at their own admission!) they left their preparations to the night before, and so it was inconvenient to have to prepare powerpoints early. And they were resistent when I asked to have the powerpoints ahead of time, for disability reasons. But it turned out that they were supposed to do this, for inclusiveness, not just for me but for everyone.
And this makes sense to me - not just for the ease of people who have undisclosed disabilities, but also so that the disabled person doesn't feel too different or singled out. It can feel quite alienating to be treated like you're the different one - and lecturers can resent your 'difference' and see you as difficult! To give an example that it's perhaps easier to relate to, I imagine that people using wheelchairs feel more included when there are ramps built into a building, rather than having to request a ramp taken out especially for them whenever they want to access a building.
So, to me, the question of whether some kind of trigger warnings might be helpful and enable traumatised students to access a course more easily is surely the first thing to consider - rather than dismiss it out of hand because of possible consequences of students taking it to an extreme of expecting never to be triggered. Once that is established - if it does make the course more accessible - then it makes sense to go on to consider the parameters of such warnings, and how they could be incorporated into a class setting, in a helpful, non-intrusive way. Because, if they are helpful to traumatised people, then it will be helpful to have them for all students. Realistically, there will be students who have undiagnosed or undisclosed trauma.
But, if some students were for some reason absolutely opposed to trigger warnings, it would surely also be possible for students to choose whether they want trigger warnings or not. And potentially trigger warnings could come in email form to students who want them. It would be interesting to see how many students would choose to have them, and I imagine it would make students officially diagnosed with PTSD and registered with disability services feel less alone and different.
[ 05. June 2015, 08:18: Message edited by: Fineline ]
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
There's probably a broader question about what people must be warned about, and what steps authorities must take to deal with them. In a regional park* here, a beach had some old but healthy trees some of which branches ran parallel to the ground and then gently soared up. All it took was one child climbing to significant height and falling, threatened legal action, for (a) signage that climbing was prohibitted, and when this didn't dissuade everyone, (b)the park sawed them all down, replanting little shrubs. Similar actions with fences for duck ponds where people used to sometimes sit on the shore and soak their feet have occurred when one person went swimming, ran into trouble and legal action was threatened. I have seen warnings about theatre productions as well: this may offend etc.
How much help with their own-selves, behaviour and responses do people really need? Can't we manage ourselves at all?
*regional park: owned and operated by a town or village
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
When I was a kid, I had a terrifying encounter with a large boa constrictor. I hate snakes. I hate pictures and videos of snakes. Snakeskin shoes and belts and purses freak me out. I loathe and despise people who keep snakes as pets. There have been many times when I would have really appreciated being told not to turn that page or watch that video, but I can't remember it ever getting a warning about snakes ahead. Except maybe when Sallah said, "Indy, why does the floor ... move?"
This week, there was a movie shoot at my workplace involving a huge number of WWII German and Japanese military vehicles, all swastikas and rising suns. There were signs posted at the perimeter of the shoot, and they covered up the swastikas with tape when they weren't filming.
I think it's a common concerns that creating any kind of code or policy for trigger warnings is that it is impossible to anticipate all of everybody's triggers. So the trigger warnings only get applied to the most common, or most disturbing, or awareness-of-the-day triggers, giving the impression that some triggers -- and by extension, the people that are triggered -- are more important, or more delicate, or more traumatized, or whatever, than others. Courtesy, awareness and compassion, however, help everybody.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Almost every mental health organisation who's said anything about pro-ana sites has come down on the side of 'nope'. Yes, it might be 'where they're at', but 'where they're at' is not a good place, and trigger warnings there merely reinforce the illusion of control over an illness which, according to some, has the highest mortality rate of any mental illness.
I was talking purely about contextual semantics, and using those sites as an illustrative example because I'm familiar with them. Feel free to substitute any other type of site for a particular group discussing a potentially sensitive area with a broadly shared perspective for the example I used.
[irrelevant aside] The negative or positive impact of specifically pro-ana sites as a whole is irrelevant to the point I was making, but FWIW, I have on occasions in the past, and possibly occasions again in the future, found them helpful in a strange and limited way. I know that's not what I'm supposed to say, and that they are deeply unhelpful or dangerous to most/many, including me sometimes, and are best avoided, but it happens to be true [/irrelevant aside]
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
The point that we're all not really talking about is this: whether the reasonable use of trigger warnings for those genuinely suffering from a serious mental condition (PTSD) has been hijacked by ideologically-motivated activists in order to advance their socio-political agenda.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The point that we're all not really talking about is this: whether the reasonable use of trigger warnings for those genuinely suffering from a serious mental condition (PTSD) has been hijacked by ideologically-motivated activists in order to advance their socio-political agenda.
Well, I think the second argument might be more convincing if activists were lobbying for trigger-warnings to be placed on things that they dislike(eg. feminist demanding trigger-warnings on pornography). Then, you could argue that the trigger-warnings were really just a condemnation of the material in question, dressed up as therapeutic concern.
But, more often than not, I see trigger-warnings placed on the material by the writers or editors themselves, eg. anti-rape activists putting trigger-warnings on essays that contain descriptions of sexual assault. Obviously, they're not trying to condemn their own books.
Though I suppose the subtext of the warnings could be something like "Isn't it horrible that these types of things happen in the world?", rather than simply "Please be aware that these descriptions could be upsetting to you."
[ 06. June 2015, 16:01: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
But, more often than not, I see trigger-warnings placed on the material by the writers or editors themselves, eg. anti-rape activists putting trigger-warnings on essays that contain descriptions of sexual assault. Obviously, they're not trying to condemn their own books.
This is what I observe too, in an online setting. People who put up trigger warnings do so for what they have written (sometimes fiction, sometimes an account of their own experiences), and they tend to be people who have experienced rape or some sort of severe abuse.
I think part of it is that in our society abuse is seen as a taboo topic. People don't want you to bring it up in conversation - it's distasteful, inappropriate, private, almost shameful. Which is difficult if that has been your life - when others talk about their childhood, you have to keep silent, or be very very selective with what you share. This sense of taboo, I think, leads many people to think some kind of warning is necessary when they talk about it. And of course, when people are writing about extremely painful experiences, they may assume that the intense pain and fear they are reliving when writing may be shared by those reading.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
Trigger warnings can be triggering for old reactionaries.
Historically, it has been reactionaries who have supported limitations on the maximal diffusion of knowledge, and progressives who have opposed them.
Now they both stand opposed.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
I think part of it is that in our society abuse is seen as a taboo topic. People don't want you to bring it up in conversation - it's distasteful, inappropriate, private, almost shameful. Which is difficult if that has been your life - when others talk about their childhood, you have to keep silent, or be very very selective with what you share. This sense of taboo, I think, leads many people to think some kind of warning is necessary when they talk about it. And of course, when people are writing about extremely painful experiences, they may assume that the intense pain and fear they are reliving when writing may be shared by those reading.
I know this is only linked tangentally, but the above paragraph made me think of the case of the pianist James Rhodes, where someone else decided that the material and all details about the abuse and rape he suffered as a child at school should be repressed.
His ex-wife brought an injunction against the publication of his autobiography because she felt it would upset their child to read about it. In the article linked to above, he talks a bit about how much that hurt - to have kept it secret all that time, then had to do so again under threat of legal action. I feel for him. I know that's not exactly a "Trigger Warning" - but maybe better that than refusing to allow it to have been published.
Horrible situation for him to be in - and I hope that his child grows up appreciating his courage in speaking of it, and that when hearing about the messiness of the court case, doesn't find that in itself a trauma.
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
As regards the specific area of sexual violence in legend and literature (Leda and the Swan, Europa and the bull Zeus, Rape of the Sabine Women, etc) for which trigger warnings are being demanded in some universities, a retired psychotherapist whom I know, and who has done a lot of work with abuse survivors, tells me that while such stories can have a triggering effect on clients in the crisis phase, they can later function as an opportunity to process their experience through an external, removed context.
Of course she was talking about a clinical as opposed to an academic setting but, mutatis mutandis, her comment could be relevant.
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
It's only a matter of time before some student does sue a university over some (possibly quite unforeseen by any reasonable person) allegedly offensive comment or incident in a classical text which allegedly traumatised them, at which point universities will go into litigation avoidance mode, with who knows what consequences for scholarship.
And this has what to do with trigger warnings? If this happens it will happen with or without trigger warnings. If there is some tidal cultural shift that makes this more likely to happen now than it was in the first 700ish years of the existence of universities, then trigger warnings are a symptom, not an etiology.
I think it's largely due to the new culture, in the US, anyway, that college students are consumers and the university needs to be responsive to consumer demands and desires. A college degree is a means to the end of a better job/career and earning more money over your lifetime. For most of the academy's history, this was not the case - it was about education, formation, and creating good citizens.
I'm grateful to this thread for the suggestion of "content note" or "advisory" - for me, as Kelly also said above, "trigger warning" has clinical connotations. It's about what triggers symptoms of one's mental illness to recur. That's not dissimilar to the warning on the can of Diet Dr. Pepper I'm drinking right now: "Phenylketonurics: Contains pheylalanine."
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
As regards the specific area of sexual violence in legend and literature (Leda and the Swan, Europa and the bull Zeus, Rape of the Sabine Women, etc) for which trigger warnings are being demanded in some universities, a retired psychotherapist whom I know, and who has done a lot of work with abuse survivors, tells me that while such stories can have a triggering effect on clients in the crisis phase, they can later function as an opportunity to process their experience through an external, removed context.
I agree with this. When I was working through PTSD, I generally welcomed being triggered, because it would bring something painful to the surface and help me process it and work through it. As I said earlier, I wouldn't have wanted trigger warnings, but I find I'm quite unusual in having wanted to face the traumatic memories head on from the start - a lot of people want to avoid them. I personally found it harder to have them buried inside me than to have them 'triggered' and therefore in my conscious mind to process.
For me, it wasn't in a clinical setting - I worked through it mostly by myself, in my own reading. But I also didn't expect lecturers to be therapists.
Something I found odd was when I once joined a web community for people working through childhood abuse, I introduced myself in the forums, just a general intro, nothing specific, but I used the word 'abuse' (as that is what the website was about), and one of the admins changed it to 'a****e', as it was seen as a triggering word. I really didn't understand that - if you join a website about being a survivor childhood abuse (and 'abuse' was in the title of the website) surely you already know that this is what it is about, so it shouldn't be an unexpected trigger. I didn't stay in the group - it wasn't helpful.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Very interesting, fineline. It reminds me of the old theory of catharsis and abreaction, that is, let the bad stuff out, indeed provoke it. It's a dangerous technique though, as I remember in encounter groups. Jung used to warn some people not to do therapy, because of restimulation, and today survivors of disasters are not automatically counselled, for fear of the same.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Very interesting, fineline. It reminds me of the old theory of catharsis and abreaction, that is, let the bad stuff out, indeed provoke it. It's a dangerous technique though, as I remember in encounter groups. Jung used to warn some people not to do therapy, because of restimulation, and today survivors of disasters are not automatically counselled, for fear of the same.
Yes, I think it is unhelpful for some people - some I know say it makes them suicidal. I don't know why I was different and felt the need to do it. It was painful but very helpful for me. Maybe it's because I'm on the autism spectrum and don't automatically process emotions in general, and used to live in a state of confusion until I learnt how to do it. So I had to process these emotions and experiences - it was kind of necessary to process the past in order to process the present. I wouldn't recommend it in general - everyone is different and it can be harmful for some people. Denial is apparently an essential survival mechanism for a lot of people. But my mind doesn't seem to do the denial thing.
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
On the other hand, though, thinking about it more, retelling the trauma is an essential part of the recovery process, according to Judith Herman, in her book Trauma and Recovery (which is seen as a classic on PTSD). You have to experience the extra pain of deliberately reliving it in order to get better. Otherwise you will just keep getting flashbacks and be constantly triggered. But I think she recommends to use caution and stop if a person starts feeling suicidal.
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
The very repetitive act of recalling in today's context confirms the memory, and the telling today may become part of a new today trauma, i.e., "when I retold or was forced to retell my trauma to myself today...:", accompanied by whatever troubling emotions. It is narrow (the word I use for it) and specific circumstances that caused the trauma, not everything that might be associated or a reminder of it. This is a goal, but the fact of triggers and cues means that it is essential and the responsibility of the traumatized person to manage this and be prepared to manage it.
I am not fond of Judith Herman and her quite uncritical acceptance of traumatic memory, repression etc. Perhaps she has moved away from that. Elizabeth Loftus' criticisms and real concern regarding much of Herman's work and the filling in of trauma stories with false memory has been compelling to me re sexual trauma.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
I don't think there is a "one size fits all" answer to trauma. Fineline came up with a way to handle it that was suitable for her. It would probably not be suitable for many other people.
I think people should trust their instincts in this matter.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
There was something on the radio (R4 - if I can remember when it was, I'll try and find a link) that said counselling straight after a traumatic event tended to make PTSD far worse. The NHS advice is that the person should be looked after by family and friends, and a few weeks later, give them a quick once-over to check they're not suffering from early symptoms, and that two thirds of people simply get better on their own.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Non-directive counselling is conta-indicated. Watchful waiting is recommended for at least a month to allow people to heal naturally. If that doesn't work, there a small number of therapies with a good evidence base.
By contraindicated, I do mean - can make it much worse (in general, not just directly afterward.)
[ 09. June 2015, 21:57: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
On This page, near the bottom, it says about RCTs (randomized controlled trials): "A review of the literature on debriefing RCTs (23) concluded that there is little evidence to support the continued use of debriefing with acutely traumatized individuals.", and goes on to say that this is a incomplete picture of management of critical incidents.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
The body/brain is equipped with it's own mechanism to deal with trauma, IE recurring dreams experienced by war veterans etc. (that isn't to dismiss therapy).
A lot of these things seem to vary from person to person. Some who've had severe traumatic experiences can live relatively normal, even highly successful lives without much bother. Whereas others with comparatively mild trauma can spend there whole lives with a feeling that their upbringing, or particular events, have caused life-long negativity.
As for Trigger warnings on printed texts or programmes which sound like "Don't look now if you think you might be affected"? Likely to more a case of curiosity killed the cat.
If however the door should open for litigation on all this type of stuff then I should imagine every single thing will have to have some kind of mental health disclaimer, sites like this for starters.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
Surely, as well, it depends on the duration of the trauma, and whether a person had a safe, non-traumatised period in their life before the trauma, or if the trauma was there from the beginning, so their brains developed with it.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
I severely doubt that those who actually find X traumatizing (as opposed to the average curious college student) for instance because of PTSD, are likely to be encouraged to click by a content warning! Someone who is traumatized by such things knows exactly what kind of content they will see if they click, and would have no inclination.
I agree. I have friends who easily get triggered from past trauma and they will avoid a book or film if they hear that it is disturbing. They appreciate the warning.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
There was a day when we only had TV and never dreamt of the limitless well of possibilities that is the Internet.
During the late 60s into the 70s programme and film makers were becoming ever more experimental and daring with production ideas. I can recall some things that were really quite disturbing. The only trigger warning was the announcer pre-stating --"The following programme may not be suitable for those of a nervous disposition". This seemed a genuine attempt to protect those who might easily be upset, remembering of course there were many people still around who'd lived through the trauma of 2 World wars.
Even though fortunate enough not to have had too much trauma in my own life I, like Fineline, do appreciate some of the warnings available now, although they do seem to be becoming ever more specific.
The IT is a completely different beast, one rather more difficult to police. It has, up until recently, been a case of user beware. The point made in OP is a fair comment though and, from what I see, people are already getting more wary about what they post for fear of being accused of causing offence.
The Law is currently changing to catch up with rogue tactics on the Internet, (like the posting of revenge porn for example). There's no saying that it won't eventually come to include someone inadvertently causing offence while giving opinions on, or by the posting of, contentious topics. Such a thing certainly won't escape to attention of sharp-eyed lawyers who've already made personal injury claims an industry in it's own right.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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