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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Is Feminism establishment?
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
On another thread, I forget which, I stated that feminism is something supported by the establishment. A number of people disgreed. Now I saw this article in the Guardian about the new Women's Equality Party.
quote:
The WEP’s cause is one mainstream parties fall over themselves to advocate – even if they sometimes screw up in practice – and is already championed inside those parties by a critical mass of credible people, and outside by credible pressure groups.
Guardian article
In other words establishment parties fall over themselves to advocate feminism. Feminism is supported by a critical mass of 'credible' people (i.e. people deemed credible by the establishment) and is advocated by 'credible' pressure groups (i.e. groups deemed credible by the establishment). In other words feminism is the establishment view?
The article contrasts the WEP with UKIP, a party that actually does take anti-establishment positions.
quote:
Ukip’s raison d’etre is saying things other politicians won’t (usually for good reason) say. It occupied a perfect gap in the market for EU withdrawal, something popular with a vocal minority but not advocated by any mainstream party, and mostly championed within those parties by people dismissed as eccentrics.
In other words no establishment party advocates UKIP's views and it dismisses those that do as eccentrics. In other words UKIP's views are anti--stablishment views.
Lets remember the 2012 CofE vote on women Bishops. Mr establishment himself, David Cameron said the Church needed to 'get with the programme'. What programme was that? What other programme would Cameron support other than the establishment programme.
[ 24. October 2015, 14:04: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I think there is a crucial difference between making statements in support of feminist ideas and supporting feminism. Especially from politicians (who will so often say what is popular, while actually not supporting this).
What it means is that establishment people want to be seen as supporting feminism, which also wanting all of the patriarchy to stay exactly as it is. Don't judge establishment (or any public figures) by what they say, or what they say they support. Judge by what they do.
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Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
Why would you want to say that feminism is establishment?
Feminism as a campaign clearly has a long, long way to go and many battles to fight, many minds to win.
Feminism as a cause or banner is fashionable in some circles, but these things change. UKIP may not be a majority view but it has succeeded in changing the rhetoric of all parties, except Corbyn's Labour. The debate gets pulled this way and that, some causes come to the fore, may even encompass others.
Can a campaign against domination, like anti-racism or child protection or feminism, ever be establishment? If feminism was truly establishment it would have no cause because it would mean women were no longer subject to domination.
I think establishment is the wrong word, unless you want to make out that feminism is something you can object to without having to reveal yourself as being against women's equality.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Luigi
Shipmate
# 4031
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Posted
To add to what S Cat and Hatless have said, I think the entire establishment is desperately keen not to appear sexist.
However that is not the same thing as the establishment being Feminist.
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I think there is a crucial difference between making statements in support of feminist ideas and supporting feminism. Especially from politicians (who will so often say what is popular, while actually not supporting this).
But then how did feminism get to become popular. It became popular because it it has been supported and promoted by people within the establishment for decades. Neither the majority of men nor the majority of women would ever have come to support feminism without that backing.
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
In my view worrying to much about "The Establishment" is a bit paranoid. I can just about see people mean, but I'm still not sure it's a meaningful concept. Maybe the OP-ers could define it? Is it a conspiracy between the BBS, Guardian and Academia?
It is said their is a zeitgeist in every society, but I'm not so sure. And even if there is, no doubt its views are just as likely to be good as bad.
So really I couldn't get all that bothered about whether feminism is now establishment.
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
In my view worrying to much about "The Establishment" is a bit paranoid. I can just about see people mean, but I'm still not sure it's a meaningful concept. Maybe the OP-ers could define it? Is it a conspiracy between the BBS, Guardian and Academia?
By 'the establishment' I mean the ruling class.
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I think there is a crucial difference between making statements in support of feminist ideas and supporting feminism. Especially from politicians (who will so often say what is popular, while actually not supporting this).
But then how did feminism get to become popular. It became popular because it it has been supported and promoted by people within the establishment for decades. Neither the majority of men nor the majority of women would ever have come to support feminism without that backing.
That is an appallingly paternalistic view. It has become popular because people have explored it and seen that it makes sense. In the same way that alternate sexualities have become acceptable because people across the country/world have engaged with the issues and/or the people and realised that they are valid approaches.
As a rule, "the establishment" is conservative, eventually following what the rest of society has been doing for a long time - usually in protest and only under pressure from the rest of society.
David "dick-in-pig" Cameron is not a feminist. He will say what he needs to say to hold onto power, irrespective of whether he believes it or not. Just because he says words that seem to be supporting of feminist ideals, that does not mean that feminism is now establishment. It means that offering support of it is popular.
Oh, and UKIP are not anti-establishment. They are a product of the establishment, who say things that will get them attention. If you want to understand what a party actually believes, look at their actions, not their words. They are politicians. UKIP are exceptionally conservative politicians.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
All I know is that I have personally found the public messages very confusing and alienating.
A shy autistic male virgin is an inherent rapist, and therefore should die?
I still don't understand it, and I am afraid.
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
You are not a rapist, inherent or otherwise, don't read this stuff.
(ETA most feminists don't think all men are, or aspire to be, rapists. In the same way, not all Christians are Fred Phelps.)
[ 24. October 2015, 12:07: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Two working definitions. Feminism: The advocacy of women’s rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.
Establishment: A group in a society exercising power and influence over matters of policy, opinion, or taste, and seen as resisting change.
If the Establishment exercising power over policy, opinion etc and it is feminist then the aims of feminism would be realised.
However, there is still gender inequality with women significantly disadvantaged and under represented in many areas of life (including within the Establishment - MPs in the Commons etc).
Therefore, the Establishment is not Feminist.
QED
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
For a man, especially one who struggles to feel comfortable with empowered women, to empathise with the concerns of feminism and to learn to see the world from a feminist perspective is perhaps the most powerful and Godly spiritual experience the world currently has to offer.
The gospel is always an invitation for us to live together in ways free of domination, and feminism is, I would say, the clearest and for men the deepest and most radical expression of that, of the new creation we are called to be in Christ.
Suggesting that feminism has perhaps lost its righteousness by becoming establishment is what you might call kicking against the pricks, if it wasn't, in a different metaphorical sense, exactly the opposite.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
All I know is that I have personally found the public messages very confusing and alienating.
A shy autistic male virgin is an inherent rapist, and therefore should die?
I still don't understand it, and I am afraid.
Where exactly are you getting these public messages from?
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
If the ruling class is feminist, then given that women are still very disadvantaged, then either they're not actually in charge, or they're not able to make their desires into reality. In which case calling them the "ruling" class rings a bit hollow. And the idea that they gave feminism whatever popularity it may enjoy is hard to credit.
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
But then how did feminism get to become popular. ...
Maybe because the majority of human beings are female?
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I don't see very well where this fascination with not being 'establishment' comes from. Does not being establishment make you right?
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
For a man, especially one who struggles to feel comfortable with empowered women, to empathise with the concerns of feminism and to learn to see the world from a feminist perspective is perhaps the most powerful and Godly spiritual experience the world currently has to offer.
The gospel is always an invitation for us to live together in ways free of domination, and feminism is, I would say, the clearest and for men the deepest and most radical expression of that, of the new creation we are called to be in Christ.
Suggesting that feminism has perhaps lost its righteousness by becoming establishment is what you might call kicking against the pricks, if it wasn't, in a different metaphorical sense, exactly the opposite.
I umm... *think* I am with you - this Reddit post covers where i've come form - and the message I heard as well..
Reddit post
[ 24. October 2015, 13:55: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
All I know is that I have personally found the public messages very confusing and alienating.
A shy autistic male virgin is an inherent rapist, and therefore should die?
I still don't understand it, and I am afraid.
Where exactly are you getting these public messages from?
Deafening messages I internalised as a kid from Team MacDworkin, and downstream from seeing the assumed-guilty position proposed by Jessica Valenti, and all this strange "rape culture" rhetoric, and the rapid change in words.
[ 24. October 2015, 13:19: Message edited by: Alex Cockell ]
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
Alex, IMHO, the answer you are looking for is right on the page you linked to:
quote:
But so long as you lump sex-critical feminists and sex-positive feminists into one big group, you are bound to continuing fearing the largest social movement dedicated toward women's rights.
Your choice, ultimately. I hope, however, one day you can relinquish your fears and understand it all.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
I'm just surprised, really, because I've only ever heard the "all men are rapists" as a second-hand caricature of feminism. I'm vaguely aware that the idea has some roots in second wave feminism but I've never met anyone who seriously advocates it. Rape culture, as I understand it, it simply a shorthand for the all-too-common excuses that come out when someone gets raped. The well-she-was-drinking; the why-was-she-out-alone-there-at-night; the why-was-she-out-dressed-like-that; the she-did-lead-him-on; the why-didn't-she-fight-him; the why-did-she-go-home-with-him.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I'm just surprised, really, because I've only ever heard the "all men are rapists" as a second-hand caricature of feminism. I'm vaguely aware that the idea has some roots in second wave feminism but I've never met anyone who seriously advocates it. Rape culture, as I understand it, it simply a shorthand for the all-too-common excuses that come out when someone gets raped. The well-she-was-drinking; the why-was-she-out-alone-there-at-night; the why-was-she-out-dressed-like-that; the she-did-lead-him-on; the why-didn't-she-fight-him; the why-did-she-go-home-with-him.
Back in the 80s, the deafening message was effectively "All men are rapists - THAT MEAN YOU! KILL YOURSELF!"
Led to Millie Tant.
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Alex, IMHO, the answer you are looking for is right on the page you linked to:
quote:
But so long as you lump sex-critical feminists and sex-positive feminists into one big group, you are bound to continuing fearing the largest social movement dedicated toward women's rights.
Your choice, ultimately. I hope, however, one day you can relinquish your fears and understand it all.
Understood. However, it gets confusing when Feminism As A Political Entity gets referred to as one monolithic entity on the news - as in Khrishnan Guru-Murthy (Channel 4 News) asking "what is The Feminist Position on (subject)".
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Can we please not make this thread about any one person's experiences with feminism? We've seen this happen to virtually every thread we've had about feminism for yonks. It's tiresome.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
Why would you want to say that feminism is establishment?
Help, help, I'm being repressed by women or job done, we can stop work now. Same rubbish as saying racism is solved.
We've come a long way, baby, but we aren't home yet.
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
I umm... *think* I am with you - this Reddit post covers where i've come form - and the message I heard as well..
Reddit post
Alex,
There are undoubtedly feminists who hate men, but feminism does not. The vast majority of feminists merely want equality, not domination.
[ 24. October 2015, 13:59: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Can we please not make this thread about any one person's experiences with feminism? We've seen this happen to virtually every thread we've had about feminism for yonks. It's tiresome.
All I offer is my perspective from outside the movement... which seems to be echoed quite widely..
http://acculturated.com/feminisms-blurred-vision-for-2015/
Consider how my life was in the immediate shadow of the movement's Overton window... and where dissident feminists (Christina Hoff-Sommers, Wendy McElroy et al) offer more support than feminism-in-power (Steinem feminism)
[ 24. October 2015, 13:43: Message edited by: Alex Cockell ]
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
Back in the 80s, the deafening message was effectively "All men are rapists - THAT MEAN YOU! KILL YOURSELF!"
I lived through the 1980s on two different university campuses with a group of rather progressive people and never heard this message. Can we not make this thread about one person's experiences? Pretty please? Let's talk about the OP. Remember the OP? Let's talk about the OP.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
Back in the 80s, the deafening message was effectively "All men are rapists - THAT MEAN YOU! KILL YOURSELF!"
I lived through the 1980s on two different university campuses with a group of rather progressive people and never heard this message. Can we not make this thread about one person's experiences? Pretty please? Let's talk about the OP. Remember the OP? Let's talk about the OP.
Maybe not - but it WAS the message blasted out to the general public through mainstream British news footage, and PSHE/Care classes of the time by militant activists.
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Host Note
I'm not sure which of two posts has broken the scroll lock so I'll be fiddling around with code for a little while. Can you please avoid quoting any post with a long link for the next half hour or so? Thanks
B62, Purg Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
Back in the 80s, the deafening message was effectively "All men are rapists - THAT MEAN YOU! KILL YOURSELF!"
I lived through the 1980s on two different university campuses with a group of rather progressive people and never heard this message. Can we not make this thread about one person's experiences? Pretty please? Let's talk about the OP. Remember the OP? Let's talk about the OP.
Maybe not - but it WAS the message blasted out to the general public through mainstream British news footage, and PSHE/Care classes of the time by militant activists. Especially to impressionable sheltered teenage boys like me at the time.
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
But then how did feminism get to become popular. ...
Maybe because the majority of human beings are female?
No. Because the majority of human beings believe that treating all other human beings as equally human is reasonable.
There are women who hate men. It this is their primary driver, they are not feminists, they are men-haters. They remind me of Coin from the Hunger Games, who wants revolution so that he can be in charge, an gets that by preaching against Snow. But he wants the same, just with him in charge.
Broadly with Alan Creswells definition, feminism is about equality, not dominance. It is about challenging the patriarchy, not replacing it. Otherwise it is something else.
--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I'm just surprised, really, because I've only ever heard the "all men are rapists" as a second-hand caricature of feminism. I'm vaguely aware that the idea has some roots in second wave feminism but I've never met anyone who seriously advocates it. Rape culture, as I understand it, it simply a shorthand for the all-too-common excuses that come out when someone gets raped. The well-she-was-drinking; the why-was-she-out-alone-there-at-night; the why-was-she-out-dressed-like-that; the she-did-lead-him-on; the why-didn't-she-fight-him; the why-did-she-go-home-with-him.
Was common through the Political Lesbianism period, which sent out the Greerism "Feminism in the theory, lesbianism is the practice", and Dworkin/French "AMAR" rhetoric.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_lesbianism
And
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_feminism
It's downstream of the Steinem/firestone/Morgan / Daly etc model - misandric Stalinist strands...
Which Christina Hoff-Sommers wrote about in "Who stole feminism" and was sent to Coventry for by Naomi Wolf in 1995.
Hence Gamergate and the current culture wars.
[ 24. October 2015, 14:01: Message edited by: Alex Cockell ]
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I'm just surprised, really, because I've only ever heard the "all men are rapists" as a second-hand caricature of feminism.
The Genesis of this is, I think, Andrea Dworkin.
Relevant Wiki quote.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
In other words establishment parties fall over themselves to advocate feminism. Feminism is supported by a critical mass of 'credible' people (i.e. people deemed credible by the establishment) and is advocated by 'credible' pressure groups (i.e. groups deemed credible by the establishment). In other words feminism is the establishment view?
Hinsliff is really arguing that the Women's Equality Party is going to split the anti-Tory vote further, and would be more successful working with factions within the anti-Tory parties. She is therefore perhaps overstating the degree to which the main parties are pro-feminist in the course of her argument.
Let's break down the argument a bit.
Hinsliff is arguing that there are large groups able to make their voices heard who are campaigning for greater equality for women within the mainstream parties. It does not follow that everyone within the mainstream parties is campaigning for greater equality for women. It certainly does not mean that perfect equality between women and men has been achieved.
When she says that the mainstream parties fall over themselves to advocate feminism, I don't think she means much more than lipservice. It's clear from the rest of the article that she still thinks that feminism still has a lot of work to do.
That Cameron tells the Church of England to be more feminist tells us more about easy a target Cameron thinks the CofE is than about how feminist Cameron is.
It certainly doesn't mean that the Establishment was in any way pro-feminist fifty or even thirty years ago. Feminism is something that has worked its way up.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
But then how did feminism get to become popular. ...
Maybe because the majority of human beings are female?
No. Because the majority of human beings believe that treating all other human beings as equally human is reasonable.
There are women who hate men. It this is their primary driver, they are not feminists, they are men-haters. They remind me of Coin from the Hunger Games, who wants revolution so that he can be in charge, an gets that by preaching against Snow. But he wants the same, just with him in charge.
Broadly with Alan Creswells definition, feminism is about equality, not dominance. It is about challenging the patriarchy, not replacing it. Otherwise it is something else.
Doesn't help when misandrists false-flag as "feminists" in the public eye. though...
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Scroll lock break fixed.
Note to Bibliophile and Alex Cockell.
I recommend you learn how to use both the URL button for posting links and software such as tinyurl for shortening very long links. Either one of those, or a combination if necessary, avoids breaking the scroll lock. Feel free to practise using the practice thread in the Styx.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Alex,
Feminism =\= Misandry. Point to fringe elements and individual complaint all you wish, but it does not prove what you think.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
If the ruling class is feminist, then given that women are still very disadvantaged, then either they're not actually in charge, or they're not able to make their desires into reality. In which case calling them the "ruling" class rings a bit hollow. And the idea that they gave feminism whatever popularity it may enjoy is hard to credit.
Feminism has not achieved all of its goals because these things time. Reorganising society whilst getting public opinion to adopt the ruling class's liberal ideas takes time.
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
UKIP are exceptionally conservative politicians.
Exactly. And since the ruling class establishment is mostly liberal rather than conservative then adopting an exceptionally conservative position is anti establishment.
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
Doesn't help when misandrists false-flag as "feminists" in the public eye. though...
Ah, so you *can* distinguish a misandrist from a feminist. Problem solved. Moving on ...
It's true that it is less socially acceptable to make openly sexist statements these days. That doesn't mean sexism is gone. It just means it's more subtle, and harder for some people to see eg. the owners of Hobby Lobby telling their female employees what kinds of birth control they couldn't use under the guise of "religious freedom".
I don't see how anyone can claim that feminism is "establishment" when so few of our power structures fully include women or recognize their concerns.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
UKIP are exceptionally conservative politicians.
Exactly. And since the ruling class establishment is mostly liberal rather than conservative then adopting an exceptionally conservative position is anti establishment.
What planet do you live on? Only compared to America is most of the "ruling class" liberal.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Is 'anti-establishment' some kind of badge you want to put on?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
I suspect that this thread is meant to lead us from feminism-is-establishment to now-women-are-the-oppressors-and-things-are-so-awful-for-men.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
Back in the 80s, the deafening message was effectively "All men are rapists - THAT MEAN YOU! KILL YOURSELF!"
I lived through the 1980s on two different university campuses with a group of rather progressive people and never heard this message. Can we not make this thread about one person's experiences? Pretty please? Let's talk about the OP. Remember the OP? Let's talk about the OP.
Maybe not - but it WAS the message blasted out to the general public through mainstream British news footage, and PSHE/Care classes of the time by militant activists.
Alex, at the risk of distressing mousethief further, no, it was not.
From memory I'm a broadly similar age to you, and British. That is categorically not the mainstream message broadcast to the British Public from feminism during the 80s.
I'm not disputing it may be your perception or even your experience, but it is not the mainstream position and never has been.
You are (again? consistently? persistently?) picking up on a combination of minority extremist views, mocking anti-feminist caricature, and probably also a mis-reading of the then equivalent of click-bait - posit a shocking statement/headline, then in the actual exposition demonstrate that the shock tactic was really just an attention grabber.
It would help enormously (you and the rest of us) if you could recalibrate your sensors to accept that "feminism" for the vast majority of people equates to viewing women as equals, and advocating for equal treatment.
As others have pointed out, you are essentially latching on to the lunatic fringe and considering them the core. No, it's not helpful that the lunatic fringe use the same label as the mainstream, but that's life. It's exactly the same problem as people equating "Christian" with "foaming USA Southern Baptist Fundie Evangelical like the nutters in the movies". Your cart is so far before the horse it's in a different county.
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I don't get the point of going through all this trouble of defining 'establishment' in such a way that it makes you anti-establishment. Why? Does it make you look cool?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
If the ruling class is feminist, then given that women are still very disadvantaged, then either they're not actually in charge, or they're not able to make their desires into reality. In which case calling them the "ruling" class rings a bit hollow. And the idea that they gave feminism whatever popularity it may enjoy is hard to credit.
Feminism has not achieved all of its goals because these things time. Reorganising society whilst getting public opinion to adopt the ruling class's liberal ideas takes time.
That presupposes that the ruling classes are actually making some effort to empower women beyond what has already been done for the past forty years.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
Back in the 80s, the deafening message was effectively "All men are rapists - THAT MEAN YOU! KILL YOURSELF!"
Led to Millie Tant.
So you're basing your opinions on feminism on your perceptions of something that (you claim) happened at least 25 years ago? Do you base your opinion on computers on the bad experience you had with an Amiga 500 in 1988?
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
Back in the 80s, the deafening message was effectively "All men are rapists - THAT MEAN YOU! KILL YOURSELF!"
I lived through the 1980s on two different university campuses with a group of rather progressive people and never heard this message. Can we not make this thread about one person's experiences? Pretty please? Let's talk about the OP. Remember the OP? Let's talk about the OP.
Maybe not - but it WAS the message blasted out to the general public through mainstream British news footage, and PSHE/Care classes of the time by militant activists.
I only came across Andrea Dworkin in one article in the Observer in the 1980s. British news didn't blast out any feminist messages, let alone that all men are rapists. I don't know about PSHE/Care classes, and I can't say how a sensitive young man might receive them, but it isn't how things were for me.
In the 80s I was helping write a service book for Baptist ministers and feeling very trendy in advocating inclusive language, and grateful for the inspiration I gained as I tried to understand the issues behind and around it.
I was also getting my head round how my marriage ought to work. The expectations I picked up from my parents were under persistent but reasonable attack. I didn't always react well, because I felt threatened. I felt at bad times that my place in the world was going to be taken away from me. Today I see the foolishness of my fearful younger self, but the journey from there to here and beyond is one I wouldn't have missed for anything, because of its spiritual dimension. I meet God in feminism, as in all the struggles around domination.
Violence does not liberate. I think that may include violent words, such as that all men are rapists (though I suspect there's something valuable behind that claim's shock value). But upsetting the status quo often needs confrontation a willingness to provoke, and leads to hurt and suffering on both sides. It's worth it, though. It leads to the recovery and deepening of our humanity.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
By 'the establishment' I mean the ruling class.
Ah, the Chinese.
[ 24. October 2015, 15:27: Message edited by: Firenze ]
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Ha ! To which I would add, seen many girls at Eton ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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