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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Is Feminism establishment?
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Agreed, mousethief. It's hardly "categorical imperative" territory.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
There are female reclusive nerds, why isn't there very much threatening from them?
Because, quite depressingly, maleness an wankerishness seem to go together like peaches and cream.
Utter horseshit. People who choose to be rabid cyberterrorists choose to do so. it is not carried on the Y chromasome. That kind of argument is the last line of defense when someone has run out of valid arguments.
The guys who launched Gamergate are a bunch of well-organized outliers. They do not represent male gamers in general. In fact, if anything, the Gamergate situation shows that sexists tend to be misandrist as well as misogynist and insist on one strict definition of manhood rather than allowing each man to figure that out himself. As in, if you do not cheer on or defend the public harrassment of these women, you are not a real man.
Feminists didn't come up with the whole "man card" idea.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Doesn't say anything about the Common Core because jerks or idiots can make things that conform to it.
Well, it affirms that the CCSS is not a curriculum but a timeline.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
Is feminism establishment? Yes, unless someone wants to argue that coercive measures from the U.S. Government are not part of the establishment, or that those American universities caught in the net, from the Ivy League and University of California on down are not.
What I find most disturbing is what seems to me an increasing tendency to characterize so much as questioning the statistics as an act of violence. Which, according to some, then justifies violent self-defense.
quote:
Trigger warnings, microaggressions... safe spaces? Sorry, an American university has become a more dangerous place in which to work than any time since Joe McCarthy's heyday. Thank God I'm retired! This isn't all due to feminist figures, but they avidly promote these developments.
I share your concern about the state of higher education in the US, but I'm glad you note that it's not all due to feminists (though I tend to feel like the word itself has been hijacked by the Humpty Dumptiers).
It is, however, an unholy mess and I'm not sure where we're supposed to go from here.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
It is, however, an unholy mess and I'm not sure where we're supposed to go from here.
The optimist in me says that it will blow over, because crying wolf gets ignored after awhile.
The pessimist in me remembers Morris Berman's diagnosis of the hopeless state of American academia, written as far back as 2000. This would be one more nail in its coffin.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I think the most socially divisive influence is prejudice, One of the tragedies of the modern era is that a one eyed focus on a particular aspect of prejudice (often enough the one we suffer from the most) can blind us to the seeds of prejudice which exist in all of us.
I don't for one moment believe that feminism per se is destructive of academia. However, a polemic approach to any issue, a relentless pursuit of one's own way, that's a different matter. Fairness and objectivity can go out of the window as a result of relentless pursuit. A good cause may degenerate into a hunt for the demons in others, an ignoring of our own fallibility. Balance gets lost in the attempt to restore it.
This isn't a counsel of perfection. I've been guilty of relentless pursuit as well.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
And why is it that there can only be one problem at a time? I'm reminded by responses to an article about hyper-thin models - obesity is the real problem! How about they're both problems? And both rooted in a warped relationship between food, nutrition, consumerism and identity.
Also, the idea that everything exists in finite amounts? If you educate girls, or give them the vote, or allow them to work, it 'takes away' something from males - rather than, say, increasing the number of self-sufficient useful people on the planet? The answer is of course is that it takes away the illusion of control. The gamergaters fighting to be kept cocooned in their puerile fantasies are scrambling for the kool-aid.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
And why is it that there can only be one problem at a time?
I was talking about root causes.
quote:
I'm reminded by responses to an article about hyper-thin models - obesity is the real problem! How about they're both problems? And both rooted in a warped relationship between food, nutrition, consumerism and identity.
So are you, there. I agree your analysis of root cause.
I don't have a single problem with incremental and targeted approaches to specific prejudices. But a bit of caution about one-eyedness doesn't go amiss IMO. Here, for example, is evidence of a degree of one-eyedness from Civil Rights activist Stokely Carmichael.
quote:
When Stokely Carmichael stated, less than seriously, that ‘the only position for women in SNCC (the Student Non-violent Co-ordinating Committee) is prone’ in 1964, he was speaking at a time when women’s efforts were largely dismissed by those outside of Civil-Rights organisations as unimportant or ineffective. (extract from an essay, full text here )
Even as a joke, that's not funny.
And I suppose in our time, there has been controversy over some feminist views re trans people. Here's a well known example.Is Germaine Greer being one-eyed here? She's certainly been consistent in holding these views, nor has she been alone, as you can see here. I'm a long term admirer of Germaine Greer, but I part company with her on this issue. Whatever one's opinions about that particular controversy, it seems prudent to hoist the root causes of prejudice and selective blindness, even if just as a warning.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
There are female reclusive nerds, why isn't there very much threatening from them?
Because, quite depressingly, maleness an wankerishness seem to go together like peaches and cream.
Utter horseshit. People who choose to be rabid cyberterrorists choose to do so. it is not carried on the Y chromasome. That kind of argument is the last line of defense when someone has run out of valid arguments.
The guys who launched Gamergate are a bunch of well-organized outliers. They do not represent male gamers in general. In fact, if anything, the Gamergate situation shows that sexists tend to be misandrist as well as misogynist and insist on one strict definition of manhood rather than allowing each man to figure that out himself. As in, if you do not cheer on or defend the public harrassment of these women, you are not a real man.
Feminists didn't come up with the whole "man card" idea.
Very good points. Male misogynists certainly police masculinity in men, as well as slagging off women. For example, many misogynists are homophobic as well, but it extends beyond that, to all kinds of varieties of masculinity, which are supposed to conform to a pattern.
However, there is certainly plenty of hope today, with the rise of the trans movement, plus also genderqueer and genderfluid people, and also agender.
I often think that I am neither male nor masculine; in other words, gender is not a compulsory identification.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
However, there is certainly plenty of hope today, with the rise of the trans movement, plus also genderqueer and genderfluid people, and also agender.
While important in and of themselves, these are tiny (and in the main, ignorable) groups.
Hope comes from very large numbers of regular straight men who are as equally comfortable changing a nappy or cooking a family meal as they are changing the oil in car (or whatever stereotypically 'male' thing you think should fit here). It wouldn't occur to my son not to do such things, and it wouldn't occur to my daughter to date someone who refused to do such things.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
However, there is certainly plenty of hope today, with the rise of the trans movement, plus also genderqueer and genderfluid people, and also agender.
While important in and of themselves, these are tiny (and in the main, ignorable) groups.
Hope comes from very large numbers of regular straight men who are as equally comfortable changing a nappy or cooking a family meal as they are changing the oil in car (or whatever stereotypically 'male' thing you think should fit here). It wouldn't occur to my son not to do such things, and it wouldn't occur to my daughter to date someone who refused to do such things.
Well, I see it as all of a piece. While trans people may be small in number, I think they are symptomatic of a general fluidity going on, whereby hard and fast categories are beginning to melt. That's why I said, that I often don't see myself as male or masculine, as they are identifications which can be put on and taken off. Or as a friend of mine says, stop classifying me.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
I still see myself as male, because I am, and I'm guessing the most men always will. What's happening is not that we're questioning our maleness, but what that maleness means we're allowed to do.
Eighteen years ago, I felt angry and upset that I was taken to task by someone I thought was a friend, who told me I was going against God's natural order by staying at home and looking after my six-month old daughter.
If they did it now, I'd just laugh at them. Such attitudes have become ridiculous and antiquated.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I remember 50 years ago, working in a pub, and the drinks that people had, and the actual glasses they drank them in, were conditioned by gender. Well, I suppose this is probably still going on, but less so. Women drink pints, and men drink things with umbrellas in.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Genderfluid. Love that word. Even though I just learned it, I can honestly say I have been perceiving myself as genderfluid since I was about seven. I just never understood why I couldn't play Luke for half an hour, then switch to Leia. Or why my love for Barbies meant I couldn't help build the tree fort.
In fairness, though, I think the world at large is slightly more comfortable with gender fluid women-- as noted above, misogyny and homphobia are close relatives.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
The optimist in me says that it will blow over, because crying wolf gets ignored after awhile.
The pessimist in me remembers Morris Berman's diagnosis of the hopeless state of American academia, written as far back as 2000. This would be one more nail in its coffin.
I used to hope it would blow over, too. But I'm becoming increasingly discouraged.
For the most part current lefty discourse requires an understanding of social and linguistic codes the genuinely disadvantaged probably haven't learned. OTOH, recognition of this is likely why the last civil disobedience planning session I went to spent quite a long time having the people involved come up with rules so that the space would be "inclusive" and a "safe space," including having everyone in the room tell people their preferred pronouns.
I have nothing against calling anyone what they'd prefer to be called (pronouns, color or ethnic descriptions, whatever). But I get nervous when people start calling misgendering someone an act of violence (as they do at GWU). And when the goal of your meeting is to plan a sit-in where people may very well get called nasty names, spit on, or banged up by police officers, it seems a bit counterproductive.
Though maybe I'm just cynical from having lived through too many language shifts where the true purpose seemed to be not concern with others, their feelings, or addressing any sort of historical oppression or systemic problems, but simply a postmodern signaling of your membership in a particular group.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
The optimist in me says that it will blow over, because crying wolf gets ignored after awhile.
The pessimist in me remembers Morris Berman's diagnosis of the hopeless state of American academia, written as far back as 2000. This would be one more nail in its coffin.
I used to hope it would blow over, too. But I'm becoming increasingly discouraged.
Oh, nuts. Academia survived for centuries, happily discriminating against women all the while. Is it so fragile that it can't stand even the slightest possibility of a hint of a tilt in the other direction?
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
However, there is certainly plenty of hope today, with the rise of the trans movement, plus also genderqueer and genderfluid people, and also agender.
While important in and of themselves, these are tiny (and in the main, ignorable) groups.
Hope comes from very large numbers of regular straight men who are as equally comfortable changing a nappy or cooking a family meal as they are changing the oil in car (or whatever stereotypically 'male' thing you think should fit here). It wouldn't occur to my son not to do such things, and it wouldn't occur to my daughter to date someone who refused to do such things.
Well, I see it as all of a piece. While trans people may be small in number, I think they are symptomatic of a general fluidity going on, whereby hard and fast categories are beginning to melt. That's why I said, that I often don't see myself as male or masculine, as they are identifications which can be put on and taken off. Or as a friend of mine says, stop classifying me.
Well, as male and female describes primary sexual characteristics I'm not sure what you mean. We are what we are, unless you suffer from a dysmorphia or I completely misunderstand you. Which is not beyond the realms of possibility of course.
However, that aside, gender is the one that continues to interest me. Obviously constructed, but on what? Possibly the most helpful definition of it I have seen is that it is "what we make of our sex". Certainly I agree that gender is (actually probably always has been) in a state of flux.
But what is this state of flux? The phenomenon sure ain't going away. You can pretend it is by squinting and only looking at restricted areas that confirm that. What about the insane gendering of children's market? Even their toys are far, far more gendered than they ever were when I was buying them for my daughters.
And what about adult's clothing? 19th century clothing was strongly about status and display. Female garments for the well-to-do involved exaggerations of physical attributes and extensive decoration, not something you could indulge in if you went to work in t'mill. "Sunday best" clothes for the better-off artisans attempted to mimic this, but often ineptly. Or at least the photos passed down through my family suggest this, and others I have seen are no different.
But now these more extreme displays of gendered clothing have invaded all strata of society, and the obsession with sexually dimorphic body shapes has surely taken its grip on society as a whole.
That's just a couple of examples. You close one door and another opens. Some forms of gender roles become disapproved or are deemed inappropriate, but then others pop up to take their place.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
gender is the one that continues to interest me. Obviously constructed, but on what? Possibly the most helpful definition of it I have seen is that it is "what we make of our sex". ,
So is there any objective substance to being transgendered, or is it just a matter of a blank-slate brain perversely making of the sex of its body, "It should be the opposite of what it is?"
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
The moral issue is whether it's right to assume delusion, simply because the person's outlook and behaviour strike us as odd. I'd allow for the possibility that they understand themselves better than we understand them.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Genderfluid. Love that word. Even though I just learned it, I can honestly say I have been perceiving myself as genderfluid since I was about seven. I just never understood why I couldn't play Luke for half an hour, then switch to Leia. Or why my love for Barbies meant I couldn't help build the tree fort.
In fairness, though, I think the world at large is slightly more comfortable with gender fluid women-- as noted above, misogyny and homphobia are close relatives.
Yes, I have always enjoyed discussing fashion, esp. women's, and when I was young kept quiet about it, but now I am an old git, I can let rip.
I keep thinking of Karen Horney, one of the early psychoanalysts, who used to talk quite a lot about the male envy of women, she actually referred to 'breast envy' and 'womb envy', the latter possibly expressed in various rituals of couvade, in some cultures.
But it's such difficult stuff to access, since it tends to be unconscious. Hence, I wonder if the trans movement shows it moving into consciousness more. But how would we know? It's guesswork, unless you are face to face with someone, who is going through something like this. But maybe the barriers are breaking down.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
But what is this state of flux? [Gender] sure ain't going away.
[...]
You close one door and another opens. Some forms of gender roles become disapproved or are deemed inappropriate, but then others pop up to take their place.
Hi Honest Ron. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) It's a fascinating and complex subject. I don't have any firm answers, just a few guesses.
Gender isn't going away, but it seem to me that gender roles in the West are less pronounced than in many cultures. Russia and the Baltic states seem to have stronger gender roles than us - perhaps there's some correlation between gender differences and hard living conditions?
Also, it's probably to do with sexual selection strategy. I suspect that women heavily influence heterosexual male gender norms and visa versa. There's then a feedback loop as average standards change and people strive harder to stand out. Peer group approval and status are no doubt relevant, but they often relate to sexual attraction.
The whole system currently gets accelerated by advertising and media, although that's not essential - society produced extreme gender identities pre-capitalism.
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Dave W.--
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
Oh, nuts. Academia survived for centuries, happily discriminating against women all the while. Is it so fragile that it can't stand even the slightest possibility of a hint of a tilt in the other direction?
Bless you!
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Alogon--
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
So is there any objective substance to being transgendered, or is it just a matter of a blank-slate brain perversely making of the sex of its body, "It should be the opposite of what it is?"
I don't know if this will help...but the way I first wrapped my mind around the concept and reality, maybe 20 yrs. ago, was that I knew some people are born hermaphrodites, with both sets of sexual organs. So it made sense to me that someone might be born with their mind/brain going one way, and their body going the other.
(Apologies to trans folks if I said any of that badly.)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
So is there any objective substance to being transgendered, or is it just a matter of a blank-slate brain perversely making of the sex of its body, "It should be the opposite of what it is?"
To quote Professor Dumbledore, "Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?"
quote:
In 1980, the American Psychiatric Association added gender identity disorder to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM). While controversial, this was seen as a way to ensure that transgender people had access to care. In a nod to progress, the next DSM will replace "gender identity disorder" with "gender dysphoria" as a diagnosis.
The shift underscores that being transgender is not a disorder in itself: Treatment only is considered for transgender people who experience gender dysphoria — a feeling of intense distress that one's body is not consistent with the gender he or she feels they are ... A 2011 study ... showed that hormone therapy was associated with lower levels of depression, anxiety and stress, as well as increased quality of life in a sample of more than 400 transgender men.
Transgender today
Even if one does take the position that transgender is a mental illness, evidence and experience has shown that the best way to "treat" the illness is for the "patient" to live their gender, with medication and/or surgery if indicated. Personally, I don't think that there's anything wrong with trans people. I think that there is something seriously wrong with rigid, binary, prescriptive gender roles.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
someone might be born with their mind/brain going one way, and their body going the other.
Yes, I get this. It's easy-peasy, in fact--
except that it conflicts with the theory that gender is only a matter of culture. Notice I wrote "blank-slate brain" as a premise. Aren't you denying the premise?
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Alogon--
Well, I didn't take one side or the other, actually!
Off the top of my head, I think gender is probably a combination of biology, culture, personal experiences, etc.
"Masculine" and "feminine" traits in one culture can be totally the reverse of in another culture.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
someone might be born with their mind/brain going one way, and their body going the other.
Yes, I get this. It's easy-peasy, in fact--
except that it conflicts with the theory that gender is only a matter of culture. Notice I wrote "blank-slate brain" as a premise. Aren't you denying the premise?
It's that one word only that's the killer.
Actually, the view that gender is only constructed on a sort of blank-slate brain was indeed the view of a section of academia and the medical fraternity. It was the evidence of sad cases such as that of David Reimer which undermined that whole project. To say we construct gender is a totally different assertion to saying that gender is a tabula rasa construct.
Or to put it another way, to assert that we build houses is true. To assert that we only build houses without foundations is nonsense.
Rather than constructing ever-more theories about it, we might do well to confess we don't actually know what the process of gender-building is based on. The above-ground constructions occupy most of our discussions on the subject.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
Oh, nuts. Academia survived for centuries, happily discriminating against women all the while. Is it so fragile that it can't stand even the slightest possibility of a hint of a tilt in the other direction?
Can it survive the slightest possibility of a hint of a tilt in the other direction? Sure.
Can it survive students demanding that both the author of an email and her husband get fired for an email saying that college students maybe don't need administrators to dictate what they wear on Halloween but are actually capable of calling each other out for offensiveness?
Can it survive college students being told to call the police for "hateful or hurtful speech or actions" in a state where a city erupted because of yet another instance of police violence against those they are supposed to protect and serve?
I'm not sure.
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
Yes, I get this. It's easy-peasy, in fact--
except that it conflicts with the theory that gender is only a matter of culture. Notice I wrote "blank-slate brain" as a premise. Aren't you denying the premise?
This has always bothered me about the debate as well. Like a lot of people, I think gender is likely a combination of nature and nurture. But I seem to run into a lot of feminists who seem to argue that gender is only a social construct until they start talking about trans issues.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
Oh, nuts. Academia survived for centuries, happily discriminating against women all the while. Is it so fragile that it can't stand even the slightest possibility of a hint of a tilt in the other direction?
Can it survive the slightest possibility of a hint of a tilt in the other direction? Sure.
Can it survive students demanding that both the author of an email and her husband get fired for an email saying that college students maybe don't need administrators to dictate what they wear on Halloween but are actually capable of calling each other out for offensiveness?
Can it survive college students being told to call the police for "hateful or hurtful speech or actions" in a state where a city erupted because of yet another instance of police violence against those they are supposed to protect and serve?
I'm not sure.
OMG! Students "demanded" something! Students were "being told" something! Someone bring me my fainting couch!
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
Anita Sarkeesian pointed out that many video games are sexist, which they are. She didn't "attack" or "come after video games." She pointed out a legitimate criticism. Such as people do all the time to books, films, TV shows etc. A huge flood of vitriol from whiny manbabies who didn't want to share their treehouses with girls hit her. She was faced with death and rape threats, doxing and so on. She was honest about how this had affected her. The response was that she had made all of this up. And also that she deserved it. And also "get over it, it's the internet; everyone's at risk of being doxed and threatened" and also "what kind of complete arsehole takes these threats seriously?" and also "it'd be great if she did get murdered tho wouldn't it LOL" and also "and if I were going to rape Anita to death here's how I'd do it" and also "she's just making all of this up." Charming.
Rebecca Watson had an encounter in which a guy propositioned her in a lift at 3am. She made a video where she said she didn't like it when men do that. She didn't claim to be traumatised. She literally just said "guys, don't do that." She was also hit by a flood of vitriol from whiny manbabies. Rape and death threats, attempts to get her fired from anything that she might ever do, doxing, and so on. This has now been going on for years. So if the atheism/skepticism community *doesn't* have a misogyny problem (and I can assure you right now that it REALLY does) why has this been going on for years? Why would there be any kind of reaction to a woman pointing out that she'd rather not be propositioned in a lift at 3am?
I'm really sick of this "but they started it" crap aimed at feminists online. Nobody deserves this kind of shit. Nobody. I've never even watched Anita's videos and I don't care. Even if she's completely wrong about every single thing she says in every single video nobody. deserves. this.
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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Liopleurodon
Good points there, I would just question if there really is an atheist 'community'. I don't really know what that would consist of.
Certainly, all of the atheists that I know are not misogynistic at all, and tend to be pro-feminist. But they would hate to be called any kind of community in any case, so for example, Atheism Plus, or A+, or however you spell it, came in for huge amounts of derision, precisely because it suggested that there should be such a community, with certain values. Why?
If you take all the people who lack a belief in God, some will be misogynistic, for sure, and some will not; some will be left-wing and some right-wing; some will be very rational, some irrational, and so on and so forth.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
I'm not really talking about the majority of people who happen to be atheist here. I'm talking about people who go to skepticism conventions, read books and listen to podcasts about skepticism. The skepticism in question being not just about religion, but about stuff like paranormal activity, complementary medicine and so on. I'm talking about people for whom skepticism is a huge part of their identity. They do form a community of sorts and their heroes are almost all rich white men. Even within this community I suspect that the misogynists are a minority but they are very very vocal and their peers don't seem to be that concerned about this as an issue.
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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
OK, fair enough. I'm still not convinced about a skeptical community - I regularly read 'rationalskepticism', and they are a quarrelsome bunch.
I think Rebecca Watson is a skeptic, isn't she? Her blog used to be 'Skepchick'.
Well, there has certainly been a ferocious debate over flirting, coming on to people, and the like, but I'm not sure how it has ended up. I think similar debates have been going on all over the place, also.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
I'm really sick of this "but they started it" crap aimed at feminists online. Nobody deserves this kind of shit. Nobody. I've never even watched Anita's videos and I don't care. Even if she's completely wrong about every single thing she says in every single video nobody. deserves. this.
And anybody who defends the way she was treated is sociopathic. Well-adjusted humans don't make rape threats, or defend people who do. Period. End of. It's subhuman behavior at best. They should be shunned from all polite society and have their computers burned in a pile.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think Rebecca Watson is a skeptic, isn't she? Her blog used to be 'Skepchick'.
Yes indeed. But she has become a marginal figure in skepticism because of the vitriol directed at her ever since this happened.
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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Why not check out what Rebecca Watson herself said in her original Slate article? She certainly seems to think she is a member of a community. Or was.
I remember the fairly extended discussions we had on the Gamergate thing. Liopleurodon's summary aligns pretty well with how I remember it. In fact I did go off to watch a couple of Anita Sarkesian's videos. The astonishing thing was not the content (it isn't exceptional - simply pointing out the tropes used in video games). For a genre based on stereotypes how is that challenging?
But clearly some people found it intolerable. And they were mostly males. Whatever the reason for that was, there are clearly people who experience some big challenges in hearing how that world does stereotyping.
There are of course other big questions that come out of it, such as what social media access does to people, online opinion norming etc., but that would take us even further away from the main subject.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
How not to counter stereotyping?
Maths for girls
I recall an autograph book verse - sort of.
I chose this maths because it's pink,
But to do calculus I can't think.
Do read the comments as well.
[ 11. November 2015, 17:33: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
OMG! Students "demanded" something! Students were "being told" something! Someone bring me my fainting couch!
If you are unconcerned that our institutes of higher education are rapidly becoming indoctrination centers where members of the upper and upper-middle class can try to purchase their place in that class, so be it.
I don't know if we've reached full moral panic mode yet, but we're rapidly getting there. If it's not your life or the life of anyone you care about getting destroyed, I wouldn't expect you to care, but that doesn't mean it's not a real problem.
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
I'm really sick of this "but they started it" crap aimed at feminists online. Nobody deserves this kind of shit. Nobody. I've never even watched Anita's videos and I don't care. Even if she's completely wrong about every single thing she says in every single video nobody. deserves. this.
I'm really sick of the "but they started it" crap in general. And much as I wholeheartedly agree with you that no one deserves that kind of treatment, I'd hope you'd agree that that applies to those who criticize or question certain strands of contemporary feminist thought as well.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
... our institutes of higher education are rapidly becoming indoctrination centers where members of the upper and upper-middle class can try to purchase their place in that class....
What exactly is your point? That they're rapidly becoming what they always were? They've always been indoctrination centres, except we look back and call our university/college years "growing up". They've always been dominated by the children of the wealthy and the more fortunate. And they've always been the gateway to the more lucrative professions. And their graduates have generally earned more money their non-graduates.
One thing that really is changing is that the representation of women at all levels of academia and in most disciplines is gradually increasing. The millennials and their parents have presented a whole new set of challenges for educators and support staff, and campus culture has to evolve.
I notice that saysay doesn't tell us whether anyone actually got fired or provide any exact details of where and when these horrors of political correctness happened. Students have always called for all sorts of things they're never, ever gonna get. Faculty have always commented on what the administration does, and they've had to fight to defend that as academic freedom. And of course, this myopic focus on North American educational institutions completely misses out on the far more militant university cultures in the rest of the world. "PC gone mad" stuff is pretty weak tea compared to what some universities went through in the past.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
They've always been indoctrination centres, except we look back and call our university/college years "growing up".
They've always been indoctrination centers? Really? They've never been places where people can hear dissenting ideas and form their own opinions (albeit ones that were likely highly conditioned by historical context)? If you think that, then I guess you wouldn't see some of the truly outrageous recent behavior at some universities as problematic. But that figures. "We" do not look back and call our university/college years "growing up".
quote:
They've always been dominated by the children of the wealthy and the more fortunate. And they've always been the gateway to the more lucrative professions. And their graduates have generally earned more money their non-graduates.
But they weren't always almost completely inaccessible to anyone else. We were making progress with things like the GI Bill and scholarships. I've been told you could once earn a degree with knowledge & skill, not just up-front purchasing power.
And I don't think dumping more federal money into them at this point (as the Dems supposedly plan) will help. The higher education bubble is going to burst. And/or there's going to be another civil war.
Time will tell.
quote:
One thing that really is changing is that the representation of women at all levels of academia and in most disciplines is gradually increasing. The millennials and their parents have presented a whole new set of challenges for educators and support staff, and campus culture has to evolve.
Gradually increasing? Aren't women more than a majority in most fields, excluding STEM?
The millenials are all the more dangerous for not knowing they're dangerous.
quote:
I notice that saysay doesn't tell us whether anyone actually got fired or provide any exact details of where and when these horrors of political correctness happened. Students have always called for all sorts of things they're never, ever gonna get. Faculty have always commented on what the administration does, and they've had to fight to defend that as academic freedom. And of course, this myopic focus on North American educational institutions completely misses out on the far more militant university cultures in the rest of the world. "PC gone mad" stuff is pretty weak tea compared to what some universities went through in the past.
I envy you if you've been able to look at any news source within the past few days without being inundated with conflicting reports about events at
Yale (watch the video linked to in most of those news reports and read the actual email that was sent) and University of Missouri.
Also, unless you're forced to wear a Burka or are unable to leave the house without a male relative as an escort, quit trying to improve/ complaining about anything that happens in the US. (You must have done something, they only give you five years for doing nothing).
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
I don't know if we've reached full moral panic mode yet, but we're rapidly getting there.
It's clear that some people live perpetually in full moral panic mode (I suspect some rather enjoy it) but that doesn't mean I have to take it seriously. Insufferable students protesting on campus simply isn't the end of the academic world as we know it. (Soror Magna spares me from having to ask whether you're aware that there was once a time called "the sixties.")
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Aren't women more than a majority in most fields, excluding STEM?
And the majority of people in most fields are entry-level grunts. This proves something about women's power in the workplace? Do you need any swamp-front property in Arizona?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Re atheistic communities:
Of course they exist! Lots of sites with hot- and cold-running atheists.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re atheistic communities:
Of course they exist! Lots of sites with hot- and cold-running atheists.
I've seen some pretty hot atheist runners. Mrao.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
I'd hope you'd agree that that applies to those who criticize or question certain strands of contemporary feminist thought as well.
Yes of course. Nobody deserves to be doxed and inundated with rape and death threats. If you're saying that feminists are regularly doxing and threatening people I don't believe you. We may argue and criticise, but we don't generally threaten to come around and rape people to death. Not our style.
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
I'd hope you'd agree that that applies to those who criticize or question certain strands of contemporary feminist thought as well.
Yes of course. Nobody deserves to be doxed and inundated with rape and death threats. If you're saying that feminists are regularly doxing and threatening people I don't believe you.
Believe what you will
quote:
We may argue and criticise, but we don't generally threaten to come around and rape people to death. Not our style.
No, IME, SWATting and bomb threats are more feminists' style. Though I have trouble believing that the person who told me I should be raped so I have some sympathy for survivors when I criticized the first Slutwalk was anyone other than a feminist.
But, of course, the thing about anonymity is that no one knows for sure who anyone is. Given how few Americans identify as feminist anymore, you may very well be right that it's not the feminists making threats against people who disagree with them.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
One piece of hearsay and two nutjob websites?
Giving Erin Pizzey the benefit of the doubt, that some feminists can be evil does not by the longest stretch of reason indicate that all feminism is so.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
We provided practical support for a local women's refuge for several years and I have much respect for Erin Pizzey's foundational work.
She doesn't have to be right about everything; she sure was right about that.
From one of the "nutjob links" I did notice this from the conference Hotel. That didn't strike me as nut-jobby. But it did strike me as worrying. Hotels don't dish out ultimata like that without good reason.
Some people can wrongly pursue a righteous cause. If as an activist you find you've attracted dangerously militant fellow travellers, it's important to speak up, acknowledging that two wrongs don't make a right. Non-violent Civil Rights movements have, historically, done rather well.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
There is a great deal of dispute about whether that letter was real, whether there was ever any kind of credible threat and whether it actually came from feminists. I'm not going to go into too much detail about this because AVFM have a long history of threatening lawsuits and I don't want SoF to have to deal with that. I would suggest reading We Hunted The Mammoth as a reliable source of more information about the kind of organisation that AVFM is and why I have my doubts.
I don't know what happened to Erin Pizzey and I'd want to read up about it a little more before commenting.
But yes. If feminists do these things they are still wrong. I'm not sure what in the world would make you think I'd claim otherwise.
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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