|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: The Sisters of Bethany
|
SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
|
Posted
As you may recall, I arranged to spend a day with the Sisters of Bethany in order to find out personally something about religious orders. Yesterday, 17 February, was the day. Herewith my notes about it, but I’ll start with my conclusions!
I came away with a feeling that, kind and hospitable though they were, there did not appear to be any interest in my questions or opinions.
I was disappointed that, although I had made it quite clear the reason for my visit, no-one had taken notice of it. I may well be quite wrong about this of course, but do not know. In any case, I had a pleasant day and it was definitely worth doing.
I arrived at the Sisters of Bethany just after 10?0 .m. The Sister ) who looks after guests was unwell and another nun greeted me.
The former saw me after lunch and I had a short chat with her just before I left at 3:0 p.m.
First stop, the lounge where there were several Associates and a Vicar, having coffee and chat. It is an Anglican Order. Several ladies and an older nun came and spoke. Then I had an interesting conversation with the Vicar. His knowledge of the Order and Anglicanism was evidently wide and authoritative, but he did not have responses for an atheist. I had taken a printed copy of the OP, at which he glanced but made no direct comment, or even get as far as the second paragraph. Had he known the purpose of my visit, I think he might even have enjoyed an exchange of views, but that had not happened. I also asked him about how he thinks of the prayer process, but I’ll bet he had never been asked that question before.
I think he was somewhat flummoxed. I am sorry about that, but I had not gone there under any false pretences. The other people there, obviously regular attenders at events and meetings, were of one mind.
Then it was time to move to a room across the corridor where four ladies plus two of the nuns and the Vicar were to listen to a CD with speakers – AofC was one of them - on the subject of Lent. Short break then to the Chapel for a service – called Matins but I’ll have to check that. Some parts said by one of the nuns, some where all read together. Number there – about 12 I think. Lunch, served by two of the nuns was taken in silence. One of the Associates sitting opposite me whispered to me what was on the plate! Tea in the lounge, then there was ‘Julian’ prayer time = silence. One person there was most definitely asleep at the end of that!
[ 18. February 2016, 14:43: Message edited by: SusanDoris ]
--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
As you may recall, I arranged to spend a day with the Sisters of Bethany in order to find out personally something about religious orders. ...
I came away with a feeling that, kind and hospitable though they were, there did not appear to be any interest in my questions or opinions.
I was disappointed that, although I had made it quite clear the reason for my visit, no-one had taken notice of it.
I'm confused. You state that the reason for your visit was "to find out personally something about religious orders." You then state that you are disappointed they did not engage with your questions or opinions, but instead carried on with... well, the business of being a religious order!
Was your purpose indeed to find out something about religious orders? Or was it to have a discussion of atheism?
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
|
Posted
Lamb Chopped
Thank you for your post. I will think about that and respond later.
--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
quote:
SusanDoris: there did not appear to be any interest in my questions or opinions.
Could you give us an idea of the kind of questions and opinions you put forward?
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I'm confused. You state that the reason for your visit was "to find out personally something about religious orders." You then state that you are disappointed they did not engage with your questions or opinions, but instead carried on with... well, the business of being a religious order!
Yes, they had told me what the order of the day would be, and being in the Lent thoughts, the service in the chapel, etc enabled me to see how they run their daily life, but I had had several phone conversations with the one who looks after guests (who, incidentally, has a vision impairment and so we had something in common), had sent a link to the start of the Religious monastic orders topic and had mentioned that I would be interested in hearing more. If I was in the position of looking after visitors to something, I would take a look at their reasons for doing so and be prepared for questions, especialy a visitor with views quite different from my own, but it appeared that this had not been done. I obviously misjudged the situation. quote:
]Was your purpose indeed to find out something about religious orders? Or was it to have a discussion of atheism?
No, it was not to have a discussion about atheism, but I had hoped that someone would mention, if only briefly, why or how she had chosen this way of life. But one can never tell how such plans will work out. ,
--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
SusanDoris: there did not appear to be any interest in my questions or opinions.
Could you give us an idea of the kind of questions and opinions you put forward?
I suppose the main question was about the benefits of religious orders, but since the one with whom I'd had contact was not there until the end of the day, I still don't know the answer! I will take the time to listen to more of their website to see if there is one there.
--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
|
Posted
A religious order is a group of people who have opted to live in community.
They eat and pray together.
It is a vocation.
As in many such orders, hospitality is an essential feature.
Enjoy the hospitality in the spirit is was give!
--------------------
It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
Posts: 267 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
|
Posted
quote:
there did not appear to be any interest in my questions or opinions.
"Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." Matt 7:5,6
[ 18. February 2016, 19:38: Message edited by: Evangeline ]
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Ok - it seems a shame that your intention in going was not fulfilled, and that your 'instructions' or requests seem to have gone awry so nobody was 'geared up' to deal with your enquiries as it were ...
But I'm a tad puzzled by the following ...
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I came away with a feeling that, kind and hospitable though they were, there did not appear to be any interest in my questions or opinions.
Then I had an interesting conversation with the Vicar. His knowledge of the Order and Anglicanism was evidently wide and authoritative, but he did not have responses for an atheist.
I had taken a printed copy of the OP, at which he glanced but made no direct comment, or even get as far as the second paragraph. Had he known the purpose of my visit, I think he might even have enjoyed an exchange of views, but that had not happened. I also asked him about how he thinks of the prayer process, but I’ll bet he had never been asked that question before.
I think he was somewhat flummoxed.
I find myself wondering what sort of responses you were expecting. After all, you've been involved here on the Ship for a long time, conversing with people who are largely theists. Why would you expect people at the religious order or the vicar to have any 'better' answers than anything you've encountered here?
After all, there are plenty of clergy here too. I'm not sure whether the Ship has monks or nuns on board though - I doubt it but you never know - we may have some here.
The vicar may have been flummoxed because he's not used to dealing with atheists in that particular context. After all, there'd be a reasonable expectation that most people who go to spend a day with a religious order are religious themselves in some way.
You mentioned your question about 'the prayer process' and how you were disappointed at the answer - again, what sort of answer were you expecting? I can't imagine it will have been the first time he's ever had to deal with a question like that, so I think we'd need to know more about the kind of question you asked.
I'll be honest ... I'm not really sure what you've told us here. It'd be as if I'd spent a day at a football club and came back saying, 'Well, I didn't get it really ... all they seemed interested in was kicking a ball around a grass pitch and talking about which division this that or the other football club were in and who had the best chances in the FA Cup and various other leagues and tournaments ...
I noticed the referee had a whistle which he blew every now and again. When I asked why he said that certain players had been 'offside.' When I asked him to explain the 'offside rule' he seemed flummoxed. I'll be no-one had asked him that question before.
I also noticed that there people wearing coloured scarves on what they called 'the terraces'. They sung and chanted a lot, but I couldn't work out what the words they were singing had to do with what was happening on the field. They sang hymns, but also songs with rude words in.'
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
quote:
there did not appear to be any interest in my questions or opinions.
"Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."
A post which consists entirely of Bible verses with no obvious relevance to the subject at hand is hardly a useful contribution to debate.
When that post is a direct response to another comment, and the quotes address a "hypocrite" and reference "dogs" and "swine", that looks a lot like a personal attack, contrary to Ship's commandment 3. Consider this a warning.
Eliab
Purgatory host
--------------------
"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
. I also asked him about how he thinks of the prayer process, but I’ll bet he had never been asked that question before.
I think he was somewhat flummoxed.
just an observation: you make a lot of assumptions about what is/ is not normal in the life & work of clergy people-- which is OK, all of us will from time to time speculate about other people's lives that we know nothing about.
But I doubt very much that he was at all surprised or " flummoxed" by your questions. And I would be willing to bet cash money that you were not the first person by a long shot who had ever asked him about prayer.
--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by SusanDoris:
[qb].
But I doubt very much that he was at all surprised or " flummoxed" by your questions. And I would be willing to bet cash money that you were not the first person by a long shot who had ever asked him about prayer.
In my (long) experience as a parish priest I can count on less than one hand the number of people who have asked me about prayer, or even seemed willing to talk about it outside of a specific religious context.
I am sure that this religious order is quite used to giving hospitality, and does so quite well in a conventional manner. But hospitality extends further than that, and it is a shame that as seems apparent they felt out of their depth with a professed atheist. I felt for Susan Doris that her obviously genuine interest was ignored, not just by the nuns but even more by those shipmates above who have made condescending comments.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
|
Posted
Perhaps how she was received might depend upon whether it was set up to be a day retreat, shared with others, or a question and answer session from an atheist to those who had taken vows and were living in a religious order?
--------------------
Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
|
Posted
quote:
No, it was not to have a discussion about atheism, but I had hoped that someone would mention, if only briefly, why or how she had chosen this way of life. But one can never tell how such plans will work out. ,
In my experience with monastics, many are quite cautious in sharing their own journey.
Asking them about their own spiritual journey or vocation is like asking a married couple about their private life. I suspect that as a first time visitor, they might not have felt comfortable that a certain level of trust has been established before they share that information with you.
--------------------
It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
In my experience with monastics, many are quite cautious in sharing their own journey.
Asking them about their own spiritual journey or vocation is like asking a married couple about their private life. I suspect that as a first time visitor, they might not have felt comfortable that a certain level of trust has been established before they share that information with you.
A good point, particularly so if a blog and the Ship were mentioned. Not everybody wants their faith testimony broadcast.
--------------------
Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I felt for Susan Doris that her obviously genuine interest was ignored, not just by the nuns but even more by those shipmates above who have made condescending comments.
Yeah, I can be ungracious some times. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) I'm glad the nuns were at least gracious and welcoming. Thanks for putting it in a better perspective.
--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
|
Posted
Sometimes questions aren't answered because they really can't be answered as asked, or not without relaxed time to consider how to answer.
For example, if prayer is primarily experiencing God in ways for which there are not words, then "the prayer process" is not a valid concept, or not one that can easily be put into words meaningful to someone unacquainted with that experience.
The first time I read "cloud of unknowing" I sensed I couldn't understand what it was saying because it was about something un-describable except to others with similar experience.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
|
Posted
I wonder how fruitful it is for an atheist and a religious person to discuss about a vocation such as monastic life. Because ultimately for many religious (in the monastic sense), the reason for one's vocation is a call from God, a concept that an atheist a priori rejects.
Monastic community life is not easy, far from it. It means not just renouncing property and the possibility of married life, it means living in community for the rest of one's life. Monastic community is also about renouncing your choice in deciding who to live with. If you enter an order, you are stuck with whoever is there, and they might not be to your liking.
In terms of vocation, the best reason given for joining a monastic life is that one feels a call from God. Perhaps one reason, SusanDoris, why you didn't receive much counsel on your question is that the people you encountered probably wondered how fruitful a conversation would be. How would an atheist respond to the answer, "God called me to this life" without dismissing it as delusional or mistaken?
[ 19. February 2016, 05:02: Message edited by: Anglican_Brat ]
--------------------
It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
Susan--
Sorry it wasn't what you'd hoped. There are lots of books by and about people in religious orders, both non-fiction and fiction.
I'll have to think a bit about a non-fiction book. But there's a novel that several Shipmates have loved: "In This House Of Brede", by Rumer Godden. It's about a British civil service executive who sort of stumbles into entering a cloistered convent. (Anglican version of Benedictines, IIRC.) None of the characters are plaster saints. (Do people use that phrase in the UK?) They've got pretty much the same stuff to work out in their lives as everyone else does, within the convent's framework.
Actually, you might also try Thomas Merton's non-fiction works. He was a Trappist monk, here in the US. Wonderful writer. IIRC, "The Seven-Story Mountain" is the one about becoming a monk. I was fond of "New Seeds Of Contemplation".
If you want to look at non-Christian monasteries and communities, you might try Jack Kornfield's "A Path With Heart". He's Buddhist, and was an Asian forest monastery for some time, and moved through other stages--family, teacher, etc. Some of his monastic experiences are in the book.
FWIW. YMMV.
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
|
Posted
Very many thanks for all the thoughtful posts above. I suppose in a way I was expecting those who live a religious life, in whatever form, would be like SofF members - interested in discussing, communicating and sharing their views;
maybe they are, but maybe only with those who agree with their beliefs.
I' cannot judge on such short acquaintance of course, but the impression keeps coming to mind - I've been thinking about the day all the time, except for tap time yesterday - that they insulate themselves with a sort of soundabsorbing layr.
I shall enjoy taking time to read again and respond to all your interesting posts later today.
--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
SusanDoris, I'm sorry you didn't find the answers you were looking for, maybe you could try writing to them. You might find that they are better able to address your questions after some thought.
I think it is hard sometimes to get an understanding of a new culture with a short visit. I don't think this is just about those living in a monastery either, if one was to visit anywhere where something was going on with intense concentration it might well be difficult to get answers to general questions.
I have been trying to think of anything I've experienced which is similar. Perhaps visiting a blacksmith, a jeweller or watchmaker. If they're trying to sell to the customer, they might well stop and acknowledge visitors - but there have been times when I've walked into small workshops and workers have been so occupied with what they were doing that they didn't know I was there, never mind ready to answer questions.
Imagine I was to contact the blacksmith and make arrangements to visit, saying that I wanted to understand more about the work but that I didn't believe traditional blacksmithing was necessary in the 21 century. A very polite blacksmith might invite you to his workshop to watch him working, he might take a few minutes to explain what he is doing and so on. But if he is busy with work, I don't think he is going to want to get into your questions about the redundancy of blacksmithing in the modern era. He isn't blacksmithing for show or as an act, he is doing it for his job and he has just invited you to witness him doing it.
I accept this isn't a perfect parallel to what you experienced. And maybe there was a level of disorganisation at the convent or maybe someone failed to pass on a message or forgot to do something.
But just as easily, I think, the sisters might have decided that they were busy with doing their daily routine, that you were welcome to come and witness and be involved but that nobody had time to answer detailed questions that needed proper preparation.
[ 19. February 2016, 07:02: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Very many thanks for all the thoughtful posts above. I suppose in a way I was expecting those who live a religious life, in whatever form, would be like SofF members - interested in discussing, communicating and sharing their views;
maybe they are, but maybe only with those who agree with their beliefs.
The monastic will have different motivations, abilities and personalities. Merely choosing to contemplate and mediate does not grant one any abilities.
If you should decide to attempt something like this in future, perhaps a written summation of what you would wish to discuss and why. Perhaps then you will be directed to a person or persons who could properly address your curiosity.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
|
Posted
Golden Key
The link in your profile doesn't work. Just so you know.
Apologies to hosts if I have broken a rule by not sending this as a private post.
--------------------
Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
|
Posted
SusanDoris:
If I hadn't met you I would have suspected you of being a reluctant atheist, a bit like I'm a reluctant protestant. Maybe you are, but you come across as sufficiently at ease with your views and life in general, so I'm not at all sure.
It can still be interesting trying to understand. But I wouldn't dive in at the deep end, since IMO you can only have productive discussions with people whose viewpoint is not a million miles from yours.
So if you were to ask me, I would only want to talk about whether materialism is a good explanation of the world as we see it and our own experiences of consciousness. Now if someone is quite happy with the worldview of Daniel Dennett, we can get no further. But if the denial of the "reality" of human consciousness and the seeming spiritual direction of evolution comes down to self delusion (we only think we are an "I" who has a conscious mind) and flukey mutations, so that the poetry of Shakespeare is only really about getting a shag, I just don't buy it.
In the end, though, it's down to intuition. I can't disprove Dennett.
But this area of debate is jolly hard work. Books I would recommend like David Bentley Hart's "The Experience of God" or Polanyi's "Personal Knowledge" are hard going. And to be honest I don't know if I've the energy for the debate.
BTW Patrick Leigh Fermor wrote a famous and beautiful book about his visit to some monastic communities in France - A Time to Keep Silence. Highly recommended.
--------------------
Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
|
Posted
Posted by Susan:
quote:
I suppose in a way I was expecting those who live a religious life, in whatever form, would be like SofF members - interested in discussing, communicating and sharing their views;
maybe they are, but maybe only with those who agree with their beliefs.
In my experience they're more inclined to listen.
--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
anteater wrote:
quote:
Shakespeare's poetry is only really about getting a shag
Is that the smell of lightly grilled straw man I can detect? Or does anybody actually say this? I suppose it adds up if you collapse ideas about survival and propagation in life, together with cultural activity. Thus, Mozart's symphonies address the penis and the clitoris really. Hmm.
The spiritual direction of evolution is an interesting idea - I suppose the idea is that humans can think and imagine and so on, whereas the lesser spotted lungfish is deficient here. A direction though? I don't think we can infer that.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
In my experience they're more inclined to listen.
You remind me of the great truth discovered at the end of an exciting posting career;
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
But in order to listen, one has to stop talking.
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Posted by Susan:
quote:
I suppose in a way I was expecting those who live a religious life, in whatever form, would be like SofF members - interested in discussing, communicating and sharing their views;
maybe they are, but maybe only with those who agree with their beliefs.
In my experience they're more inclined to listen.
If they largely speak to folk who all pretty much agree with each other, they might simply be a little rusty at addressing challenges. Might be worth it to try again.
--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
|
Posted
SusanDoris - I have attended several open days at a then local to me friary, day retreats in different places and a week on retreat on Lindisfarne. There is a gulf between a day trip and immersing yourself for a longer stay.
A day retreat, which it sounds as if you were a part of, is usually set up specifically to enable those present to concentrate on something. From what you have described, it sounds as this was a Lent retreat where those who had chosen to attend wanted to concentrate on their Lenten discipline, even the vicar, who also needs to have wilderness time to pray. Although their calendar suggests the Sisters of Bethany are generally open for services and the Julian Prayer meeting (which is based on silence).
I note that the Sisters of Bethany have Open Afternoons on Saturdays, which gives "time to chat" as part of the offer, rather than planned prayer groups. This might be a better time to ask your questions, rather than in a normal day of observances. But you may find, as Anglican Brat said, that asking about faith journeys is too personal a question for people to discuss at a first meeting and you may well get a potted history that says enough for the curious without actually giving any of the underlying reasons, which seems to be what you are asking for.
--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
I agree with the others that books might give more of an insight into the question of why people join religious orders.
I think Jean Varnier is an example of someone who gives a fairly detailed biography along with his reasons for joining L'arche (which is not an Order in one sense, but was certainly for Varnier a life commitment and vocation).
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
quote:
Curiosity killed ...: There is a gulf between a day trip and immersing yourself for a longer stay.
I agree with this. I don't think it would be easy for them to explain in words to you what a retreat is about. I think you'd need to go through it for some time to be able to get something about it.
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
SusanDoris
Did you ever see the BBC TV series "The Monastery". I think it is available (though not on iPlayer) from some commercial sources. You might even find an episode or two on youtube (I haven't looked).
It remains for me the best programme of its kind in the way in which it made a particular monastic order accessible. It was also notable for some remarkable conversations between monks and visitors, most of whom were people without faith but curious to find out how the monastic life was lived.
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
|
Posted
Susan Doris
If you are interested in reading about someone for whom the monastic life in an active (i.e. not enclosed) order wasn't in the end the right thing, try "Through the narrow gate" by Karen Armstrong. She followed this up with "Beginning the world", now out of print, and much later "The spiral staircase."
The first and last of the three are the most illuminating. KA is a prolific writer about religion - just look her up on Amazon. I found the books mentioned infomative as she never lost her belief in God, despite the troubles which beset her as a professed nun.
--------------------
But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
|
Posted
Continuing my previous post -
As regards prayer, I once asked a question about it of a CoE priest at a dinner party. He effectively replied that he was off duty and to see him during his office hours!
There could be various reasons why anyone would be reluctant to discuss prayer. Possibilities might include:
1. It's too important personally to be discussed with a stranger.
2. As mentioned above, it's not an off-duty topic
3. The person asked no longer practises or believes in prayer, but for professional reasons is unwilling to admit it.
Just an idea for starters.
--------------------
But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
|
Posted
Nobody else has said this so I'll dive in: they might actually have some fatigue in dealing with being challenged. I've been all over the place faithwise, and went from being an atheist in my upbringing, to a fairly devout Christian, to someone who has become disillusioned and disconnected from faith for various reasons. When I first became a Christian certain individuals around me wanted to challenge me all the time. And faith is a peculiarly difficult human experience to justify. Nobody believes in God because they've been argued into it. They believe because it fits with their experience in some way. It is difficult and personal and wibbly wobbly faithy waithy. And it may be that these people have never been challenged by an atheist, or never thought about it, but in this day and age, for people as committed to faith as they are? It seems unlikely. I think it's mostly happened in some form every day for years. It's your mum or dad or Ricky Gervais or the opinion piece in the newspaper.
It's somebody getting up in your face and saying "But why do you love your husband? He seems like a monster to me. If he even exists. How do you know he does? HA! Oh and now that we've established my views on the matter, part II: tell me about your most intimate and vulnerable moments with him." If you go to a person of near infinite patience and politeness, and talk to them like that, the chances are they're going to be polite and patient and get away from you as quickly as possible because they've learned there's no point. In the meantime, you can go away with the smug satisfaction of thinking he has no answers and can't handle that he's wrong.
While the image of Christians in the media is of people who want to talk about Jesus all the time and share their faith whether you want to hear it or not, that is a particular subset. It's probably the more extroverted, people oriented, life and soul of the party type of Christian who wants to do this. People who join monastic orders? Not so many of them fit into this profile. They may be committed to faith, but they committed to a life of quiet contemplation rather than a life of loud argument. Are those of us who say "Nope, not doing this AGAIN!" failing to rise up to an evangelistic opportunity? Possibly, but like I said, people aren't argued into faith. Some people have experiences that bring faith to them and others don't. A particular brain circuit lights up, perhaps. But argument doesn't make it happen.
Going by your post history here, Susan, it seems likely to me that your basic premise was probably something along the lines of "I think God doesn't exist and Christianity is wrong and deluded and probably bad for the world. Explain to me why I'm wrong." Someone invites you into their house, and your response is to try and tear into their most cherished beliefs, their relationship with someone they love more than any other? What do you think they'll feel? Angry? Threatened? Insulted? Suddenly enlightened that the whole basis of their belief is a sham? My best guess is: tired. It is tiring. And like all tiring things, some people love doing it. There are the Christian version of ultra marathon runners, prepared to argue forever. It's a particular vocation within Christianity, but not everyone has it just because they're Christian. When you're in someone's house, it's better to respect that.
--------------------
Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I' cannot judge on such short acquaintance of course, but the impression keeps coming to mind - I've been thinking about the day all the time, except for tap time yesterday - that they insulate themselves with a sort of soundabsorbing layr.
Susan, I've been to lots of retreat centres, run by Christians of different stripes, including Catholic and Anglican monastics. The atmosphere of a retreat house is very calm, peaceful ... and non-combative. I wouldn't expect (or want) the same kind of atmosphere that exists on a forum like this, where the discussions are high octane and fairly combative. I'm not saying that the opportunity for that wouldn't exist in the context of a retreat house. But when I go to a retreat centre, it's to get some peace, calm and quiet, not to engage in intense discussions about the existence of God. It's an introverted, contemplative form of spirituality. Heaven for an introvert like me. That might (or might not) explain what you perceived as the insulation of a 'soundabsorbing layer'.
I echo Barnabas's recommendation of 'The Monastery' - excellent and enlightening series. And its sister programme, 'The Convent' - a small group of women, most of whom had no religious faith, stayed with some nuns. The encounters were lively and thought-provoking.
I've not met many nuns but the ones I have met were very down-to-earth people, with a lot of wisdom and life experience.
--------------------
"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I cannot judge on such short acquaintance of course, but the impression keeps coming to mind - I've been thinking about the day all the time, except for tap time yesterday - that they insulate themselves with a sort of soundabsorbing layer.
In my busier days I would have loved the thought of such a life!
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I've been thinking about the day all the time, except for tap time yesterday - that they insulate themselves with a sort of soundabsorbing layer.
I suspect their perspective is that those not in that space are cut off from the real centre of things, not by a layer of the sisters' making, but by just such a layer weaved by those outside, out of all life's trivia.
[corrected attribution]
[ 19. February 2016, 12:53: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
@Eutychus - you bodged the code there, your quote was originally from Susan I think. Just for info.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
If I was patronising towards SusanDoris, I apologise.
I don't at all doubt Susan's sincerity or the genuineness and integrity of her quest.
Like others here, I simply wondered whether she was asking the right questions in the right context. A monastic open-day thing is very different to the Ship.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
quote:
SusanDoris: I've been thinking about the day all the time, except for tap time yesterday - that they insulate themselves with a sort of soundabsorbing layr.
This is kind of the point of going into retreat.
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
|
Posted
I wasn’t sure whether to post individual responses or put them all together (and I see there are further interesting comments too), but decided on the latter course. Hope it’s not too muddled. Please forgive any mangled quotes.
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
A religious order is a group of people who have opted to live in community.
They eat and pray together.
It is a vocation.
As in many such orders, hospitality is an essential feature.
Enjoy the hospitality in the spirit is was give!
Yes, I hope that they felt that I did that, and of course I wrote a proper tthank-you letter.
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Ok - it seems a shame that your intention in going was not fulfilled, and that your 'instructions' or requests seem to have gone awry so nobody was 'geared up' to deal with your enquiries as it were ...
But I'm a tad puzzled by the following ...
I find myself wondering what sort of responses you were expecting.
It’s more a case of there was no response. quote:
The vicar may have been flummoxed because he's not used to dealing with atheists in that particular context. After all, there'd be a reasonable expectation that most people who go to spend a day with a religious order are religious themselves in some way.
Agreed, but, as I say, I had been clear about myself.
Since it was evident that the prayer question was sort of not suitable, I think I skimmed over it and in any case it was getting to Lent study time. quote:
I'll be honest ... I'm not really sure what you've told us here.
Maybe that makes two of us!
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
just an observation: you make a lot of assumptions about what is/ is not nonormal in the life & work of clergy people-- which is OK, all of us will from time to time speculate about other people's lives that we know nothing about.
But I doubt very much that he was at all surprised or " flummoxed" by your questions. And I would be willing to bet cash money that you were not the first person by a long shot who had ever asked him about prayer.
Yes, I think you’d win the bet!
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I am sure that this religious order is quite used to giving hospitality, and does so quite well in a conventional manner. But hospitality extends further than that, and it is a shame that as seems apparent they felt out of their depth with a professed atheist. I felt for Susan Doris that her obviously genuine interest was ignored, ,...
Thank you. quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye: Perhaps how she was received might depend upon whether it was set up to be a day retreat, shared with others, or a question and answer session from an atheist to those who had taken vows and were living in a religious order?
Yes, that could have been the case, but I had phoned and e-mailed before Christmas about a suitable date and again about ten days ago. In a way, though, it’s always sensible to see how things turn out, so I tried not to have too many expectations. quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
No, it was not to have a discussion about atheism, but I had hoped that someone would mention, if only briefly, why or how she had chosen this way of life. But one can never tell how such plans will work out. , quote:
In my experience with monastics, many are quite cautious in sharing their own journey.
I suspect that as a first time visitor, they might not have felt comfortable that a certain level of trust has been established before they share that information with you.
Yes, and maybe they are much more accustomed to people visiting regularly. quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Anglican_BratI suspect that as a first time visitor, they might not have felt comfortable that a certain level of trust has been established before they share that information with you.
A good point, particularly so if a blog and the Ship were mentioned. Not everybody wants their faith testimony broadcast.
This is another interesting point to consider. However, they do have a website which appears to be right up to the minute as far as design goes! quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Sometimes questions aren't answered because they really can't be answered as asked, or not without relaxed time to consider how to answer.
Thank you – yes youre right.
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
I wonder how fruitful it is for an atheist and a religious person to discuss about a vocation such as monastic life. Because ultimately for many religious (in the monastic sense), the reason for one's vocation is a call from God, a concept that an atheist a priori rejects.
Monastic community life is not easy, far from it. It means not just renouncing property and the possibility of married life, it means living in community for the rest of one's life. Monastic community is also about renouncing your choice in deciding who to live with. If you enter an order, you are stuck with whoever is there, and they might not be to your liking.
In terms of vocation, the best reason given for joining a monastic life is that one feels a call from God. Perhaps one reason, SusanDoris, why you didn't receive much counsel on your question is that the people you encountered probably wondered how fruitful a conversation would be. How would an atheist respond to the answer, "God called me to this life" without dismissing it as delusional or mistaken?
I’ve been sitting here thinking about that last question for some time! But I haven’t come up with a definite answer yet, I’m afraid! quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Susan--
Sorry it wasn't what you'd hoped. There are lots of books by and about people in religious orders, both non-fiction and fiction.
I'll have to think a bit about a non-fiction book. But there's a novel that several Shipmates have loved: "In This House Of Brede", by Rumer Godden. It's about a British civil service executive who sort of stumbles into entering a cloistered convent. (Anglican version of Benedictines, IIRC.) None of the characters are plaster saints. (Do people use that phrase in the UK?) They've got pretty much the same stuff to work out in their lives as everyone else does, within the convent's framework.
Actually, you might also try Thomas Merton's non-fiction works. He was a Trappist monk, here in the US. Wonderful writer. IIRC, "The Seven-Story Mountain" is the one about becoming a monk. I was fond of "New Seeds Of Contemplation".
If you want to look at non-Christian monasteries and communities, you might try Jack Kornfield's "A Path With Heart". He's Buddhist, and was an Asian forest monastery for some time, and moved through other stages--family, teacher, etc. Some of his monastic experiences are in the book.
FWIW. YMMV.
Thank you for the book suggestions. I’ll make a list of all the recommendations in this topic and see what is available from the NLB.
--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
|
Posted
quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Is that the smell of lightly grilled straw man I can detect? Or does anybody actually say this? I suppose it adds up if you collapse ideas about survival and propagation in life, together with cultural activity. Thus, Mozart's symphonies address the penis and the clitoris really. Hmm.
I own up to a degree of over simplification, though I have read my Dennett and have no beef with evolution until it insists that one is not allowed to posit any outside influence to explain the process. I'm not saying anyone does have. But for me it doesn't add up.
quote:
The spiritual direction of evolution is an interesting idea - I suppose the idea is that humans can think and imagine and so on, whereas the lesser spotted lungfish is deficient here. A direction though? I don't think we can infer that.
Of course not. I would never attempt to say that the Dennetts of this world are deficient in the use if inference. Rather that they see no value in any explanation ("explanation" is how I think they would put it) that is not capable of generating a scientifically testable hypothesis.
To me intuition is just being convinced about something you know you can't prove. Nothing wrong with that, so long as you know what your position really is.
--------------------
Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
|
Posted
I would think that living in religious community fosters the kind of interior life that is not easily communicated to an observer on the first meeting.
I have done anthropological fieldwork with a religious-based society (not a group of nuns) and it required several visits before I had established the kind of relationship with individuals (and not all of them) to provide me with the insights I was seeking.
I'm also reminded of the occasions when college students and others have come to my Quaker Meeting to find out what we do and what it means to us. Often, the questions they ask require a shared understanding for the answers to make sense.
If you are still interested in what the Sisters of Bethany have to say to the questions you have, scheduling another visit might help.
sabine
[ 19. February 2016, 16:00: Message edited by: sabine ]
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I suppose in a way I was expecting those who live a religious life, in whatever form, would be like SofF members - interested in discussing, communicating and sharing their views;
99% of Christians to whom I suggest Ship of Fools have zero interest in a discussion group about religion or Christianity (or whatever the Ship is). They are busy doing life, or relaxing by doing something fun (sports, tv, art, play with the kids). They aren't in discussion groups on other topics either. Social groups for superficial chit chat yes, but that's quite different.
"Ongoing discussions about what is the nature of Christianity? You really are weird!"
You may have had bad luck of the one person in the place who enjoys that sort of thing was sick. Maybe contact her again?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
|
Posted
Belle has a good point. We are a pretty weird breed. Even among religious folk, dissecting theology is high level nerdania.
--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Belle has a good point. We are a pretty weird breed. Even among religious folk, dissecting theology is high level nerdania.
Indeed. Last week we had a big family meal, and my youngest son got into a heavy math-lete- type discussion with son-in-law about some intricate something having to do with higher mathematics/ calculus, etc. It was well, well over my head, but they were having a passionate discussion. At a certain point I turned to daughter unit and asked "is this what dad and I sound like when we discuss theology?". Answer: "pretty much."
--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
|
Posted
Yep. And I'll be honest, I am not a theological "mathlete" myself-- if one of my atheist friends came at me hard and fast, I'd eventually start saying, "This is getting kind of circular-- woudn't you rather help me make these paper airplanes for the kids?"
My affection for St. Martha and the name of the cloister suddenly unite for me. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
|
Posted
The Monastery BBC show, 2005, in on Youtube (in USA anyway) here
There was another one I think called The Abbey, where half a dozen women stay in a convent for a month. I have always have trouble finding it, so I don't know if that one is still on line somewhere.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
|
Posted
My computer has a peculiar glitch which means it comes up with odd symbols instead of punctuation marks. I'll try and find them but might not succeed with all. quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
SusanDoris, I'm sorry you didn't find the answers you were looking for, maybe you could try writing to them. You might find that they are better able to address your questions after some thought.
Thank you for this interesting post of yours. The idea of writing a letter definitely appeals. If I do, I'll post it here. quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The monastic will have different motivations, abilities and personalities. Merely choosing to contemplate and mediate does not grant one any abilities.
If you should decide to attempt something like this in future, perhaps a written summation of what you would wish to discuss and why. Perhaps then you will be directed to a person or persons who could properly address your curiosity.
I will spend some more time on their website to see if there is anything about actual benefits to others of their work. quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
SusanDoris:
If I hadn't met you I would have suspected you of being a reluctant atheist, a bit like I'm a reluctant protestant. Maybe you are, but you come across as sufficiently at ease with your views and life in general, so I'm not at all sure.
I can definitely assure you that there is no reluctance in my atheism quote:
It can still be interesting trying to understand. But I wouldn't dive in at the deep end, since IMO you can only have productive discussions with people whose viewpoint is not a million miles from yours.
True, but such a discussion would probaby lead to some convergence of views but one which leads to a continuation of totally differing views can be just as interesting and, with luck, each would understand more about the other's thoughts! quote:
So if you were to ask me, I would only want to talk about whether materialism is a good explanation of the world as we see it and our own experiences of consciousness. Now if someone is quite happy with the worldview of Daniel Dennett, we can get no further. But if the denial of the "reality" of human consciousness and the seeming spiritual direction of evolution ...
But no aspect of human evolution has direction, has it.
quote:
But this area of debate is jolly hard work.
Definitely agree there!
Re: a further visit. Quite an interesting idea, but I think it is unlikely.
Re: listening. My impression was more that they may have heard but were not listening.
Curiosity Killed
Thank you for the information. I wonder if you could say more about your retreat? Was there much communication between those attending? Did you find you were, in a way, isolated ... on purpose, I mean ... in your own thoughts?
Barnabas62
Thank you for the info re the TV series. No, I did not see it, but there were a few Radio4 talks I remem ber. At that time, I had not thought of a question such as, what are the benefits of monastic orders?
Jacobsen
I didn’t actually read that book, but did read others by Karen Armstrong. I remember listening to some Radio4 programmes too. I was always sorry that she seemed to avoid the yes/no answer as to whether she still believed in god.
As an atheist of course, I lack any belief in any God/god, so there is no reason to pray to it.
This has been an excellent day – reading, thinking and responding as well as I can to the thoughts here. I will be back tomorrow to continue.
--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
