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Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
The Monastery BBC show, 2005, in on Youtube (in USA anyway) here

There was another one I think called The Abbey, where half a dozen women stay in a convent for a month. I have always have trouble finding it, so I don't know if that one is still on line somewhere.

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• different aspects of Christianity,
• prayer,
• the future of a parish,
• team building with a group of others from the same church,
• not in my experience, but I know ministers who have all spent time on retreat before ordination or taking on a role.

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But no aspect of human evolution has direction, has it.

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Originally posted by crunt:
Buddhism was also mentioned. I think this is an excellent idea for the OPer - and everyone, I suppose - especially the Buddhist suggestion. Buddhism has supernatural accretions attached to it, but is basically non-theist in its philosophy.

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Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
Nobody else has said this so I'll dive in: they might actually have some fatigue in dealing with being challenged. I've been all over the place faithwise, and went from being an atheist in my upbringing, to a fairly devout Christian, to someone who has become disillusioned and disconnected from faith for various reasons. When I first became a Christian certain individuals around me wanted to challenge me all the time. And faith is a peculiarly difficult human experience to justify. Nobody believes in God because they've been argued into it. They believe because it fits with their experience in some way. It is difficult and personal and wibbly wobbly faithy waithy. And it may be that these people have never been challenged by an atheist, or never thought about it, but in this day and age, for people as committed to faith as they are? It seems unlikely. I think it's mostly happened in some form every day for years. It's your mum or dad or Ricky Gervais or the opinion piece in the newspaper.

It's somebody getting up in your face and saying "But why do you love your husband? He seems like a monster to me.

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…] If he even exists. How do you know he does? HA! Oh and now that we've established my views on the matter, part II: tell me about your most intimate and vulnerable moments with him." If you go to a person of near infinite patience and politeness, and talk to them like that, the chances are they're going to be polite and patient and get away from you as quickly as possible because they've learned there's no point. In the meantime, you can go away with the smug satisfaction of thinking he has no answers and can't handle that he's wrong.

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While the image of Christians in the media is of people who want to talk about Jesus all the time and share their faith whether you want to hear it or not, that is a particular subset. It's probably the more extroverted, people oriented, life and soul of the party type of Christian who wants to do this. People who join monastic orders? Not so many of them fit into this profile. They may be committed to faith, but they committed to a life of quiet contemplation rather than a life of loud argument. Are those of us who say "Nope, not doing this AGAIN!" failing to rise up to an evangelistic opportunity? Possibly, but like I said, people aren't argued into faith. Some people have experiences that bring faith to them and others don't. A particular brain circuit lights up, perhaps. But argument doesn't make it happen.

Going by your post history here, Susan, it seems likely to me that your basic premise was probably something along the lines of "I think God doesn't exist and Christianity is wrong and deluded and probably bad for the world. Explain to me why I'm wrong." Someone invites you into their house, and your response is to try and tear into their most cherished beliefs, their relationship with someone they love more than any other? What do you think they'll feel? Angry? Threatened? Insulted? Suddenly enlightened that the whole basis of their belief is a sham? My best guess is: tired. It is tiring. And like all tiring things, some people love doing it.

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There are the Christian version of ultra marathon runners, prepared to argue forever. It's a particular vocation within Christianity, but not everyone has it just because they're Christian. When you're in someone's house,
it's better to respect that.

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Originally posted by Jack o' the Green:

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Originally posted by crunt:
Buddhism was also mentioned. I think this is an excellent idea for the OPer - and everyone, I suppose - especially the Buddhist suggestion. Buddhism has supernatural accretions attached to it, but is basically non-theist in its philosophy.

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Obviously, Buddhism varies according to school and practitioner, but generally speaking, while it is certainly non-theist, it is every bit 'supernatural' i.e. not capable of being explained in purely naturalistic categories as any theistic faith.

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Originally posted by Laurelin:

Susan, I've been to lots of retreat centres, run by Christians of different stripes, including Catholic and Anglican monastics. The atmosphere of a retreat house is very calm, peaceful ... and non-combative. I wouldn't expect (or want) the same kind of atmosphere that exists on a forum like this, where the discussions are high octane and fairly combative. I'm not saying that the opportunity for that wouldn't exist in the context of a retreat house. But when I go to a retreat centre, it's to get some peace, calm and quiet, not to engage in intense discussions about the existence of God. It's an introverted, contemplative form of spirituality. Heaven for an introvert like me. That might (or might not) explain what you perceived as the insulation of a 'soundabsorbing layer'.

I echo Barnabas's recommendation of 'The Monastery' - excellent and enlightening series. And its sister programme, 'The Convent' - a small group of women, most of whom had no religious faith, stayed with some nuns. The encounters were lively and thought-provoking.

I've not met many nuns but the ones I have met were very down-to-earth people, with a lot of wisdom and life experience.

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Thank you - that is interesting. I think it is unlikely that I shall venture further at my age , but will certainly take a look at those programmes (on the computer). I have in fact watched about a quarter of the men at the monastery one.

[code corrected]

[ 20. February 2016, 10:36: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think the question about the actual benefit to others is a very interesting one ... and it might account for why they were apparently cagey about giving you a straight answer on that one ...

But that might be doing them a disservice ...



I remember seeing a TV interview with an RC abbot once who give the 'reason' for monasticism being important as it's very 'uselessness' in pragmatic, practical terms in a society obsessed with pragmatism and utility ...

It's very 'uselessness' was what made it useful.

An interesting take, I thought, although it wouldn't wash, of course, if anyone were to assess it in pragmatic terms.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think the question about the actual benefit to others is a very interesting one ... and it might account for why they were apparently cagey about giving you a straight answer on that one ...

But that might be doing them a disservice ...



I remember seeing a TV interview with an RC abbot once who give the 'reason' for monasticism being important as it's very 'uselessness' in pragmatic, practical terms in a society obsessed with pragmatism and utility ...

It's very 'uselessness' was what made it useful.

An interesting take, I thought, although it wouldn't wash, of course, if anyone were to assess it in pragmatic terms.

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Originally posted by Boogie:

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Originally posted by SusanDoris:

I cannot judge on such short acquaintance of course, but the impression keeps coming to mind - I've been thinking about the day all the time, except for tap time yesterday - that they insulate themselves with a sort of soundabsorbing layer.

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In my busier days I would have loved the thought of such a life!

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
If I was patronising towards SusanDoris, I apologise.

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Originally posted by sabine:
I would think that living in religious community fosters the kind of interior life that is not easily communicated to an observer on the first meeting.
*****
If you are still interested in what the Sisters of Bethany have to say to the questions you have, scheduling another visit might help.

sabine

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Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
99% of Christians to whom I suggest Ship of Fools have zero interest in a discussion group about religion or Christianity (or whatever the Ship is).
****
"Ongoing discussions about what is the nature of Christianity? You really are weird!"

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Belle has a good point. We are a pretty weird breed. Even among religious folk, dissecting theology is high level nerdania.

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Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
The Monastery BBC show, 2005, in on Youtube (in USA anyway) here

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Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Retreats - several, only one that lasted a week.

The whole point of a retreat is to be set apart from the daily stresses of life to allow you to think about other issues - to give you space to listen to the still small voice of God. In my experience that's been to explore:

• different aspects of Christianity,
• prayer,
• the future of a parish,
• team building with a group of others from the same church,
• not in my experience, but I know ministers who have all spent time on retreat before ordination or taking on a role.

They all had a structure of services - Morning Prayer / Matins, some had a mid morning communion, shared midday meal with grace (or picnic), shared evening meal with grace, evening and maybe night prayer. When the group has been there to understand something there were talks in the morning, with afternoons free or to go and try out ideas based on the morning's talk, or to pray together as a group and come to a consensus, or just to walk the island, explore the area - it depended on the purpose of the retreat.

Yes, retreats are to answer questions, but within yourself or the group you are with, not externally.

Open days are different - an opening up to show what is there and those
on duty are willing to talk.

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Originally posted by crunt:
Someone else mentioned up-thread that the OPer might consider visiting other, non-Christian, retreats. Buddhism was also mentioned. I think this is an excellent idea for the OPer - and everyone, I suppose - especially the Buddhist suggestion. Buddhism has supernatural accretions attached to it, but is basically non-theist in its philosophy. A person with no religious faith seeking answers to spiritual questions might benefit from a guided inward tour, before asking about other people's perceptions of this unbelieved in god.

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Originally posted by anteater:
SusanDoris:

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But no aspect of human evolution has direction, has it.

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Well it would probably fall into DH territory to debate this. The point I was trying to make is, that if an atheist wishes to engage with me on why I am a believer (of sorts) I would not start at a point which makes no sense to argue unless the existence of God was already agreed. So I wouldn't start with things like prayer or eternal life or anything like that which makes no sense so long as someone is committed to the view that only beliefs that can generate scientifically testable hypotheses are worth entertaining. Which I suppose is where you are coming from.

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Originally posted by Japes:
The clergy man who seemed flummoxed by the questions may have been there for retreat himself and therefore not obliged to answer questions from other guests.

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Originally posted by SusanDoris:
With a multitude of problems and worries to solve when I was in my twenties a, and having already come to the conclusion that, although there was
God/force/power somewhere, it did absolutely nothing, I relied on my own inner strength and my mind to get through. I think I can honestly say that I have never sought a spiritual answer, since I knew I could cope on my own. Support of friends helped of course.

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Originally posted by SusanDoris:

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Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
The Monastery BBC show, 2005, in on Youtube (in USA anyway) here

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Thank you . I am able to watch and listen on the computer and have seen about a quarter of that link so far.

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Originally posted by Raptor Eye:

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Originally posted by SusanDoris:
With a multitude of problems and worries to solve when I was in my twenties a, and having already come to the conclusion that, although there was
God/force/power somewhere, it did absolutely nothing, I relied on my own inner strength and my mind to get through. I think I can honestly say that I have never sought a spiritual answer, since I knew I could cope on my own. Support of friends helped of course.

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If you have continued to think of God as a genie who is supposed to be on call through prayer by those who cannot cope, it is no wonder you reject the whole concept of God and prayer.

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I am going to admit I am going through a similar period of spiritual futility ( still believe in God, don't believe God gives a shit about me), and if I tried to be honest to someone about my struggles and recieved the above response, it might be just enough to tilt the balance toward, "Fuck it."

I don't expect God to be a genie that gives me a smooth ride through life, but yeah, since I am a Christian, I have been taught the third person of the trinity is called The Comforter, and when I pray for help and even that inner peace evades me, it is easy to feel like I have been abandoned.

The next step in this dance is someone telling me, " what have you done to distance yourself from God, then?" Right?

Please don't read this as a pitch for All Saintsy support, I am really concerned about how we, as Christians ( even half assed Christians such as myself) approach people who are in that space. The above response strikes me as catastrophically insufficient.

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Originally posted by SusanDoris:

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Originally posted by Japes:
The clergy man who seemed flummoxed by the questions may have been there for retreat himself and therefore not obliged to answer questions from other guests.

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They said that he is one of several local priests who help with taking the daily services.

It was his choice to come and talk to me!

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

I don't expect God to be a genie that gives me a smooth ride through life, but yeah, since I am a Christian, I have been taught the third person of the trinity is called The Comforter, and when I pray for help and even that inner peace evades me, it is easy to feel like I have been abandoned.

The next step in this dance is someone telling me, " what have you done to distance yourself from God, then?" Right?

Please don't read this as a pitch for All Saintsy support, I am really concerned about how we, as Christians ( even half assed Christians such as myself) approach people who are in that space. The above response strikes me as catastrophically insufficient.

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Not trying to do All Saints here, but this spiritual futility/no-peace thing is a known stage of the Christian life. A very nasty one.

IMHO anyone who doesn't recognize that and says instead "what have you done to bring this on" or similar is simply making it clear to the world in general that they are too immature to have experience it themselves.


Like two-year-olds giving teenagers advice on their love lives.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Originally posted by Raptor Eye:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I am going to admit I am going through a similar period of spiritual futility ( still believe in God, don't believe God gives a shit about me), and if I tried to be honest to someone about my struggles and recieved the above response, it might be just enough to tilt the balance toward, "Fuck it."

I don't expect God to be a genie that gives me a smooth ride through life, but yeah, since I am a Christian, I have been taught the third person of the trinity is called The Comforter, and when I pray for help and even that inner peace evades me, it is easy to feel like I have been abandoned.

The next step in this dance is someone telling me, " what have you done to distance yourself from God, then?" Right?

Please don't read this as a pitch for All Saintsy support, I am really concerned about how we, as Christians ( even half assed Christians such as myself) approach people who are in that space. The above response strikes me as catastrophically insufficient.

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Thank you for your challenge to my challenge, KA.

No, I wouldn't have followed it with 'what have you done ....' I was addressing SusanDoris who is a confirmed atheist, and if this was and still is who she thinks God is, I'm not surprised. It strikes me that our own image of who God is and what prayer is supposed to do is what so often stands in the way of faith, particularly when it doesn't work the way we expect it to and we become disappointed and disillusioned.

I would be interested to hear what you think I might have said, instead. I can't and shouldn't promise anything from God, other than that we are all loved, that it is worthwhile speaking to God in prayer, in trust that we will be held through the hard times, (even though we sometimes feel abandoned), we will sometimes be knowingly blessed, and it will be a rough ride.

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I don't expect God to be a genie that gives me a smooth ride through life, but yeah, since I am a Christian, I have been taught the third person of the trinity is called The Comforter, and when I pray for help and even that inner peace evades me, it is easy to feel like I have been abandoned.

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Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
If you have continued to think of God as a genie who is supposed to be on call through prayer by those who cannot cope, it is no wonder you reject the whole concept of God and prayer.[//QB]

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[QB]Spiritual seeking is facilitated within a retreat, as is spiritual refreshment. I would have hoped that the facilitators of the retreat may have been ready to speak to you about their concepts of prayer and of God.

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I am going to admit I am going through a similar period of spiritual futility ( still believe in God, don't believe God gives a shit about me), and if I tried to be honest to someone about my struggles and recieved the above response, it might be just enough to tilt the balance toward, "Fuck it."

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Originally posted by SusanDoris:
There are times, aren't there, when you'd really like to lodge a very strong complaint against that part of the evolutionary process which provides us with an unexchangeable set of genes with which we have to face all life's circumstances. That sounds a bit flippant, but it's not at all meant that way.

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Originally posted by SusanDoris:
The big difference being that the husband would be material, not an idea.

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Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
Normally I consider the "but God is real to this person" as a cop-out, as I'm sure you do. This is one situation in which it is important. God is real to this person. This person loves God more than anything, more than they'd love their husband if they had one. You can say that they're loving an imaginary friend. That's fine. The friend doesn't actually have to be real for the love, the commitment and the loyalty to be real. My point is that when someone interrogates you about love, it doesn't come across well. When someone has an intense, intimate relationship with a spouse, or God, or a particularly beautiful pet rock, it is an expression of entitlement to assume they owe you an explanation for that.

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Originally posted by Boogie:

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Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
Normally I consider the "but God is real to this person" as a cop-out, as I'm sure you do. This is one situation in which it is important. God is real to this person. This person loves God more than anything, more than they'd love their husband if they had one. You can say that they're loving an imaginary friend. That's fine. The friend doesn't actually have to be real for the love, the commitment and the loyalty to be real. My point is that when someone interrogates you about love, it doesn't come across well. When someone has an intense, intimate relationship with a spouse, or God, or a particularly beautiful pet rock, it is an expression of entitlement to assume they owe you an explanation for that.

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You use the word 'interrogate' rather strongly here.

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Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I think there are also assumptions being made here about the churchmanship of people who go on retreats. In my experience, those who choose retreats tend to be quieter, introverted Christians, who like silence - because that's what a retreat is all about.

If I am on retreat I've paid for silence and time apart to pray, maybe about a specific issue, maybe just to re-centre myself. I am really not looking for lots of chat and discussion. I would quietly find somewhere else to be away from anyone who was too chatty.

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The main requirement for a Julian Meeting is that there should be a substantial period of silence. The most usual length is 30 minutes. It should not be less than 20 minutes and can be as long as the meeting decides. This is not interrupted in any way

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Kelly Alves: SusanDoris really hasn't said much about the content of her discussions with the Sisters, if you go back and read the posts, but people seem to be deciding in their heads what the discussions must have been like and assessing the situation from there.

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
As far as I can see, this thread is about Susan saying that a certain vicar was flummoxed by a conversation they didn't have. And saying anything more about it is unwise speculation.

Interesting thread.

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