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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Bringing people back to God.
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Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
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Posted
With church attendance in serious decline, what can we do to address this issue?
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
Posts: 267 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
We can all be ready to talk about our faith and to challenge the urban myths and stereotypes (only as it comes up in natural conversation) - as well as continuing to demonstrate our love for God and for other people.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
What makes you think church attendance declining means people are rejecting God? Rather than, like me, rejecting the church? And maybe finding God in the process.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
To that point, perhaps our job is not to "bring people back to God." Perhaps our job is to be what we are called to be: an authentic community of Christ-followers. And there is the possibility-- no guarantees-- that if we focus on getting that part right, people will be less disenchanted with the Church and more likely to attend. But it's one of those things, like love or happiness, where pursuing it directly as an end in and of itself pretty much insures you won't acquire it. It only comes as a byproduct of a life lived well.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
1) Stop being hypocritical. Practice what you preach.
2) Find reconciliation between religion and science--they are not mutually exclusive but evangelicals in particular shoot themselves in their foot when they insist on a literal understanding of the creation stories, IMHO.
3) Become open and affirming. When the church sets up arbitrary boundaries between "us" and "them," we will find Jesus on the other side.
4) Affirm historical practices (ie liturgies) in a modern setting. Millennials are actually drawn to the roots of the church.
5) Above all else, preach the gospel.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756
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Posted
I don't think anyone is going to see us and be amazed at us being a community of Christ-followers if we all stay within the walls of the church and expect others to come and see us standing up, sitting down, standing up again and singing hymns/songs and listening to someone who may or may not be, speaking plain English rather than Christianese.
I think (and this is just me) that the average man or woman in the street sees a Christian as someone who is "religious", goes to church and is not allowed to swear or hear anyone swearing.
And no, I don't have an answer. I'm still trying to find where God has got to.
Posts: 4544 | From: not too far from Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2003
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Gramps wrote:
quote:
2) Find reconciliation between religion and science--they are not mutually exclusive but evangelicals in particular shoot themselves in their foot when they insist on a literal understanding of the creation stories, IMHO.
So are churches which allow for the reconcilliation between science and religion doing better than the ones that don't?
My own view is that if you want to get people back in church, you need to convince them to believe in God as God is preached in church. This might allow for the belief that science has rendered some of what we say about God as metaphor, but God still needs to be the central part of the belief system.
And this most likelty will NOT include sentiments like "I find God in the smile of a child", or "Well, I don't know what to call it, but I believe in something". Because, insofar as we are talking about Christian churches, there aren't many of them that will include those types of beliefs under the category "God".
To put my cards on the table here, I don't believe that most people in the west currently subscribe to a view of God that could be accomadated by most Christian churches, unless those churches want to stretch their theology beyond all recogniation.
TL/DR: People stay away from church because they don't believe in the things that churches teach. So, it's probably gonna be an uphill battle getting them back.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
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Posted
I have given up going to church.
I have experienced worship in several churches and found the experience remarkably empty.
The minister/priest comes out with same old platitudes.
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
Posts: 267 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
1. Don't be a dick
2. Be a normal person and be prepared to engage with others about faith - theirs (or lack of it) and yours.
3. Listen to people when they tell you why Christianity and the church sucks. Don't respond with "No all churches".
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Find reconciliation between religion and science--they are not mutually exclusive but evangelicals in particular shoot themselves in their foot when they insist on a literal understanding of the creation stories, IMHO.
This is a huge one imo - especially for young people. All the young Christians I know who turned agnostic/atheist cited this one. (only ten people, but still)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
What makes you think church attendance declining means people are rejecting God? Rather than, like me, rejecting the church? And maybe finding God in the process.
There is nothing in my post to suggest that the decline in church going is a rejection of God.
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
Posts: 267 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2011
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Find reconciliation between religion and science--they are not mutually exclusive but evangelicals in particular shoot themselves in their foot when they insist on a literal understanding of the creation stories, IMHO.
This is a huge one imo - especially for young people. All the young Christians I know who turned agnostic/atheist cited this one. (only ten people, but still)
This is bizarre - and I'm not doubting your experience, because I too meet lots of young people who cite this - because mainstream churches in the UK are really not very creationist.
I believe you are in quite a conservative congregation so that might make a difference.
However even people who have not been in a creationist milieu still say that this is why they no longer believe.
I wonder if it a post hoc justification in at least some fraction of cases.
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
To bring people back to God take Him to them.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Like this.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
What makes you think church attendance declining means people are rejecting God? Rather than, like me, rejecting the church? And maybe finding God in the process.
There is nothing in my post to suggest that the decline in church going is a rejection of God.
The OP and thread title suggest this.
If you want to argue that point, why should anyone be interested encouraging people back into an institution that they reject? What is the point of the church? It is helpful for some, yes, but why bother about reducing attendance? If less people find it useful, so be it.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
What makes you think church attendance declining means people are rejecting God? Rather than, like me, rejecting the church? And maybe finding God in the process.
There is nothing in my post to suggest that the decline in church going is a rejection of God.
The OP and thread title suggest this.
If you want to argue that point, why should anyone be interested encouraging people back into an institution that they reject? What is the point of the church? It is helpful for some, yes, but why bother about reducing attendance? If less people find it useful, so be it.
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
Posts: 267 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
1. Don't be a dick
2. Be a normal person and be prepared to engage with others about faith - theirs (or lack of it) and yours.
3. Listen to people when they tell you why Christianity and the church sucks. Don't respond with "No all churches".
I think you have a desire to be gratuitously offensive.
I hope it keeps you amused.
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
Posts: 267 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2011
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Find reconciliation between religion and science--they are not mutually exclusive but evangelicals in particular shoot themselves in their foot when they insist on a literal understanding of the creation stories, IMHO.
This is a huge one imo - especially for young people. All the young Christians I know who turned agnostic/atheist cited this one. (only ten people, but still)
This is bizarre - and I'm not doubting your experience, because I too meet lots of young people who cite this - because mainstream churches in the UK are really not very creationist.
I believe you are in quite a conservative congregation so that might make a difference.
However even people who have not been in a creationist milieu still say that this is why they no longer believe.
I wonder if it a post hoc justification in at least some fraction of cases.
I can't speak for the UK, in the US it's really that fundamentalism has dominated the airwaves. I find even among my religiously diverse students, the only version of Christianity they're even aware exists is con-evo fundamentalism. They aren't even aware there is a more moderate form of evangelicalism that would favor women's rights, theistic evolution, and possibly even gay marriage or universalism. Much less any awareness of non-evangelical Christianity. So yeah, they really honestly don't know there is an alternative. Some of that's on journalism in general, where print media has savaged budgets for the "religion beat" and broadcast media just wants to get the most extreme, oddball whackadoodle Christians they can in front of the camera. But some of it's on us for failing to enunciate the alternatives in a meaningful way.
[ 28. February 2016, 21:00: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
1. Don't be a dick
2. Be a normal person and be prepared to engage with others about faith - theirs (or lack of it) and yours.
3. Listen to people when they tell you why Christianity and the church sucks. Don't respond with "No all churches".
I think you have a desire to be gratuitously offensive.
I hope it keeps you amused.
Well SC's failing to offend me if that's their desire.
1 is ... 1
2 I'd only want to engage about faith if my works were up to it.
3 I respond with complete agreement, "me too" and ask them why they feel and think that.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
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Posted
At one time, particularly in small communities, people went to church, not necessarily because they were religious or that they believed in God, but because it was required of them. It was part of the social scene to which they belonged, or wished to belong.
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
Posts: 267 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
1. Don't be a dick
2. Be a normal person and be prepared to engage with others about faith - theirs (or lack of it) and yours.
3. Listen to people when they tell you why Christianity and the church sucks. Don't respond with "No all churches".
I think you have a desire to be gratuitously offensive.
I hope it keeps you amused.
Well SC's failing to offend me if that's their desire.
1 is ... 1
2 I'd only want to engage about faith if my works were up to it.
3 I respond with complete agreement, "me too" and ask them why they feel and think that.
If you and SC wish to reduce this to a slagging match, so be.
I was mistaken in thinking that this was a board for mature discussion. I know better now.
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
Posts: 267 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I'm sorry? Are we separated by a common language?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I'm sorry? Are we separated by a common language?
So it would seem.
Posts: 267 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2011
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
At one time, particularly in small communities, people went to church, not necessarily because they were religious or that they believed in God, but because it was required of them. It was part of the social scene to which they belonged, or wished to belong.
Who wants a church where people attend for reasons other than their core commitment to the faith? Not me.
As one finds the general in the particular, here's me:
I spend most Saturdays thinking about going to church and wanting to go. Most Sundays I sleep through my alarm, or my wife wakes me and says "did you want to go to church or not" and I say "gnngh".
My Anglican church starts at 9am. Its sister church in the next town, a 15 minute drive, is at 10:30am. I often get home late from work on Saturdays and I take a pill at night that makes me drowsy. For the next few months I'll be working 10-4 every Sunday.
There are options for me. I could go to the Catholics every second Saturday. The local happy clappys do about three services a Sunday, but I am a liturgy guy, and they do weird things, I'm told. I do go to a Mick church in the city once a month, before I try to convert my mate back to the faith by getting pissed with him over, around and under a meal. That's a weekday service at 11am. I'm a wandering Mick myself.
So, for me, a tried and convicted no doubts believer, I don't go to church because it is mildly inconvenient or would irritate me, in the case of the happy clappys. As an aside, my wife is against me going pentecostal because she didn't like the tactics of another congregation towards her sister.
I would like a church here in town to do a service of which I approve at say 10am weekdays. That would fit with my work, as I get home at about 10am from my weekday shifts, and have a few days off during the week.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
The Barna institute cited the perceived conflict between religion and science as one of the main reasons why millennials are leaving the church. It is my experience that millennials are leaving the evangelical churches more than mainline churches for this reason. When millennials are hearing certain denominations insisting on the literal interpretation of the creation stories they get the impression that all churches are saying the same thing.
Not quite.
However the mainline churches tend to avoid this topic or try to quiet about it. While the evangelicals are sinning by commission, mainline churches are sinning by omission on this one.
Frankly, I am in my 60's and I struggle with this too. Logically I know that religion and science are not mutually exclusive, but are often times complimentary. However, I was raised in a very conservative church where I was told dinosaur bones were placed in the ground by the devil and to think otherwise was to deny the creative power of God.
Those scares are still with me. I have tied to avoid passing them on to my children.
[ 29. February 2016, 03:36: Message edited by: Gramps49 ]
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It's not creationism in the UK, it's damnationism. If you're repelled by creationism, you're also protected from damnationism and the lesser heresies that go with it, superstition and piety.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
At one time, particularly in small communities, people went to church, not necessarily because they were religious or that they believed in God, but because it was required of them. It was part of the social scene to which they belonged, or wished to belong.
Who wants a church where people attend for reasons other than their core commitment to the faith?
I do. I want it full of people who are intrigued by the figure of Jesus but don't know what to make of him. I want it full of people who don't know what they believe but are attracted by the concepts encapsulated in Jesus' earthly life. I want it full of people who don't know what they believe but think there's something of value there. I'm not really bothered about their commitment to any set of propositions.
[ 29. February 2016, 08:10: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
re: science and religion. Imagine the following debate between a skeptic and a clergyman...
SK: I don't wanna go to church. You guys are against science.
CL: Not at all. You're thinking of the fundies. Our church accepts evolution and the big bang theory.
SK: Hey, that's cool. But what about the Virgin Birth?
CL: Oh, uhh, well, some of us think that's just a holdover from paganism.
SK: Okay. And the miracles of Jesus?
CL: Uhh, metaphorical?
SK: Right. And the Resurrection?
CL: ....
You can all write your own reply for that last one. Bouns points if it still manages to reconcile science with any recognizable version of Christianity.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I kinda think if the deity is who the church declares him to be, then it is his job to bring people back not ours. If the solution he deems is to kill-off church structures as we know them, then so be it.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
At one time, particularly in small communities, people went to church, not necessarily because they were religious or that they believed in God, but because it was required of them. It was part of the social scene to which they belonged, or wished to belong.
Who wants a church where people attend for reasons other than their core commitment to the faith?
I do. I want it full of people who are intrigued by the figure of Jesus but don't know what to make of him. I want it full of people who don't know what they believe but are attracted by the concepts encapsulated in Jesus' earthly life. I want it full of people who don't know what they believe but think there's something of value there. I'm not really bothered about their commitment to any set of propositions.
Then why not just start a discussion group about the life and teachings of Jesus? Why do your "curious about Jesus" people need to meet in a place onstensibly decidated to worshipping the guy?
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
This is a huge one imo - especially for young people. All the young Christians I know who turned agnostic/atheist cited this one. (only ten people, but still)
This is bizarre - and I'm not doubting your experience, because I too meet lots of young people who cite this - because mainstream churches in the UK are really not very creationist.
I believe you are in quite a conservative congregation so that might make a difference.
However even people who have not been in a creationist milieu still say that this is why they no longer believe.
I wonder if it a post hoc justification in at least some fraction of cases.
I can only observe my own child, who has not been brought up Creationist nor in any kind of non-mainstream church.
To my child, the major drawback is the obvious denial of reality - as she sees it - exhibited in church. She sees much of church as "this is true because I say so", she sees many of the traditional biblical explanations for phenomema as being ignorant (but innocent) from a pre-scientific worldview, such as angels and demon possession. She sees only contradictions in the sciptures as they are used in church, she sees many of the doctrines as being built on imaginative spiritual-sounding words which have been expanded down the years way beyond what was intended. She sees the Christian way as no better or worse than any other complicated religious group - such as Sikhism - it just happens to be the one she is used to and knows most about.
To be honest, most of the time I tend to agree with her.
[ 29. February 2016, 08:36: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
The misogynistic Dead Horses also put people off, of course.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
At one time, particularly in small communities, people went to church, not necessarily because they were religious or that they believed in God, but because it was required of them. It was part of the social scene to which they belonged, or wished to belong.
Who wants a church where people attend for reasons other than their core commitment to the faith?
I do. I want it full of people who are intrigued by the figure of Jesus but don't know what to make of him. I want it full of people who don't know what they believe but are attracted by the concepts encapsulated in Jesus' earthly life. I want it full of people who don't know what they believe but think there's something of value there. I'm not really bothered about their commitment to any set of propositions.
Then why not just start a discussion group about the life and teachings of Jesus? Why do your "curious about Jesus" people need to meet in a place onstensibly decidated to worshipping the guy?
Why not? These people aren't necessarily interested in discussing concepts about Jesus. They are interested in belonging, even though they're not sure about what it is they are belonging to.
Some of us are still in this place, although we've been churchgoers for many years and count ourselves Christians. I don't see the dividing line between people for church and people more on the edge that you're trying to draw.
[ 29. February 2016, 10:11: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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footwasher
Shipmate
# 15599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
With church attendance in serious decline, what can we do to address this issue?
If you put things in the proper context or framework, you may be able to get answers.
Let's get you started. Put "church" into the category of means, not ends. Church is one of the means where the end result is that people land up as followers of God.
A strong parallel is the Exodus event.
God wants to make a vivid distinction between following His goals and following other goals.
He gives Joseph a dream that results in Israel living a life that serves those other goals. Originally, Israel thought that Egypt would be a good place to avoid the pains of life. The goal of most people, distilled down to its essence . Seeking that life is a mirage, because it results in additional pain as seen in the oppressive situation Isreal found itself in. Our of the frying pan into the fire.
In order to extract His People out of that learning experience, God sends Moses. Although Moses does not know it, the plan is to bring Israel out of a situation that teaches the price one pays for living a self centred life, to living a life of serving God and others, by trusting God.
Our job parallels that of Moses. We must rescue people oppressed by selfish living by bringing them into a situation where they can learn how to live a life free from oppression, where they can drink from the Rock.
Did Moses succeed in the job? Well, he got the people out of Egypt. He reasoned with God: How was he going to convince people that what they were risking their lives to reach wasn't a dream, a mirage? God allowed him to do miracles.
After bringing them out of Egypt, why did God deprive them of water and food? They had to learn to trust Him, it would be essential later on when He asked them to abandon even valuing their lives, to go to war. What was wrong with Israel doubting God's motives in depriving them of food and water? They had enough reason to trust Him.
Is trusting God going to help in entering His rest? It's more than enough, it's the only thing that works. Not good works, not perfection: even with thorns in your side, residual sin , trusting Him is sufficient, because faith results in grace, we are saved by grace through faith.
Why didn't God abandon them when they failed to trust Him? Because He is slow to anger, long-suffering, not willing to give up easily on His children.
How close is the analogy to Christian life? Very close.
God calls us to rescue people out of selfish living, we ask God for help, God gives us powerful messages to prise people out of futile living. If you want to be really, really perfect, sell all you own and follow Christ. Then signs and wonders will confirm the truth of those powerful messages. If you are like me, you would all for terms of peace, ask God to extend the deadline. In the meantime, you would use unrighteous Mammon to make friends with those who are already living the eternal life, so that when you lose your job, they would welcome you into The same eternal type of living they have.
That's you. As for those who accept the invitation you extend, they are forced to go through the baptism that Israel went through. Suddenly, their lives turn upside down. They begin to face strange trials in their lives. The correct response is to act like Christ, not like Israel. They should hunker down and say, "Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." When asked to perform some gratuitous act to exhibit God's anointing, they should not test God like Israel did, depending on their anointing through the sea and the cloud, counting on it as an entitlement to venture out into battle and win, but respond like Christ and say, "It is written that you shall not put the Lord your God to the test.
I mean why should we respond loyally to God, trust Him blindly? After all, Israel HAD seen God perform miracles, DID have sufficient reason to trust him, we don't. Why shouldn't we see the same miraculous works to bolster our faith. Because we have Scripture, and Scripture was written so that we would have the inside track, would know what mistakes Israel made and avoid those mistakes. These things were written for our information, so that we would not do as they did.
Israel was disloyal to God and never entered God's rest. Josie and Caleb were loyal to God's and DID enter that rest. But even Joshua did not lead Israel into a true test. Their remains a rest to be entered, the rest that was provided by the Cross, the rest of being blessings to the world, pruning the world, subduing the world, perfecting the world. The rest in Christ is entered by saying good things about God, not like Israel who murmured against Him, or like Moses who said good things about himself. The power of Christ, the ability to be a blessing to the world, by presenting a powerful gospel is manifest when we are weakest.
See, that's a rich and robust unpacking of the material. Not like the impoverished pap we hear on any given Sunday morning.
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Ship's crimp
Posts: 927 | From: pearl o' the orient | Registered: Apr 2010
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footwasher
Shipmate
# 15599
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Posted
Excuse, the double post, needed to add a small bit of information. Drinking from the Rock isn't listening to sermons, it's being tested with strange trials. The church is the wilderness. Eep!
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Ship's crimp
Posts: 927 | From: pearl o' the orient | Registered: Apr 2010
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
You say rich unpacking, I say impenetrable text I can can make no sense of.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
I think you have a desire to be gratuitously offensive.
I hope it keeps you amused.
and
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
I was mistaken in thinking that this was a board for mature discussion. I know better now.
That's getting too personal for Purgatory - if you want to engage with someone's arguments, do it here, if you want to comment on how offensive and immature you consider them to be, take it to Hell.
Eliab
Purgatory host
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Just agreeing with others, bringing people back to God need not mean their going to church, or in fact, being Christian. I know tons of people who either left the church, or stopped being Christian, and they are God-intoxicated. I'm sober now, just.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
What makes you think church attendance declining means people are rejecting God? Rather than, like me, rejecting the church? And maybe finding God in the process.
There is nothing in my post to suggest that the decline in church going is a rejection of God.
But the thread is called Bringing people back to God, which does rather imply that as you go on to discuss church attendance, you believe that abandoning church is abandoning God.
[ 29. February 2016, 14:17: Message edited by: jacobsen ]
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
See, that's a rich and robust unpacking of the material. Not like the impoverished pap we hear on any given Sunday morning.
Actually, it seems quite similar to what I hear on Sunday mornings. Perhaps you could point out how your sermon differs from the average "impoverished pap" one hears in other churches?
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
At one time, particularly in small communities, people went to church, not necessarily because they were religious or that they believed in God, but because it was required of them. It was part of the social scene to which they belonged, or wished to belong.
Who wants a church where people attend for reasons other than their core commitment to the faith?
I do. I want it full of people who are intrigued by the figure of Jesus but don't know what to make of him. I want it full of people who don't know what they believe but are attracted by the concepts encapsulated in Jesus' earthly life. I want it full of people who don't know what they believe but think there's something of value there. I'm not really bothered about their commitment to any set of propositions.
Then why not just start a discussion group about the life and teachings of Jesus? Why do your "curious about Jesus" people need to meet in a place onstensibly decidated to worshipping the guy?
I love having a church with people who are truly seeking-- people who are curious about Jesus, or about what faith looks like. People with real and honest questions.
But that's a bit difference than what Frankenstein was describing. In the US anyway, there was a time when church attendance was neither about worshipping Jesus nor about asking questions about Jesus, but often was about social obligation and/or business connections. Today there are easier/better ways to make friends, drum up business, or find a date. I think our churches are better for that-- our mission is clearer.
But I do think there's a lot of residual confusion about the purpose of churches, and a lot of residual customs/paradigms that are holdovers from the days when church was mainly about social obligations. Time/volunteer/budget-intensive events that don't serve our mission but are holdovers from the old days when going to the church potluck was the only way to meet people. These sorts of events can bleed energy/focus that is desperately needed elsewhere. And, most of all, they confuse those seekers about what they can expect to find in a church, and cause them to not realize this might be a place where you can bring you questions, your struggles, your hopes and fears.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
See, that's a rich and robust unpacking of the material. Not like the impoverished pap we hear on any given Sunday morning.
Actually, it seems quite similar to what I hear on Sunday mornings. Perhaps you could point out how your sermon differs from the average "impoverished pap" one hears in other churches?
I think I'd prefer impoverished pap that I could make any sense of it that what Footwasher posted, which I couldn't.
Perhaps I'm just thick as shit.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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fausto
Shipmate
# 13737
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
re: science and religion. Imagine the following debate between a skeptic and a clergyman...
SK: I don't wanna go to church. You guys are against science.
CL: Not at all. You're thinking of the fundies. Our church accepts evolution and the big bang theory.
SK: Hey, that's cool. But what about the Virgin Birth?
CL: Oh, uhh, well, some of us think that's just a holdover from paganism.
SK: Okay. And the miracles of Jesus?
CL: Uhh, metaphorical?
SK: Right. And the Resurrection?
CL: ....
You can all write your own reply for that last one. Bouns points if it still manages to reconcile science with any recognizable version of Christianity.
Would you consider a Christianity that relies primarily on figurative interpretation rather than literal narration of long-ago events, in order to convey timeless spiritual truths through metaphorical meaning rather than propositions of historical fact, unrecognizable?
[ 29. February 2016, 14:57: Message edited by: fausto ]
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"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way." Gospel of Philip, Logion 72
Posts: 407 | From: Boston, Mass. | Registered: May 2008
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footwasher
Shipmate
# 15599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
See, that's a rich and robust unpacking of the material. Not like the impoverished pap we hear on any given Sunday morning.
Actually, it seems quite similar to what I hear on Sunday mornings. Perhaps you could point out how your sermon differs from the average "impoverished pap" one hears in other churches?
Which is more compelling?
To be told that the desired result is to escape eternal torment in hell (that's not even congruent with the image of a loving God, therefore leading to skepticism about the veracity of the message)
Or
To be told that you are escaping a futile way of living (something that is immediately obvious)?
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Ship's crimp
Posts: 927 | From: pearl o' the orient | Registered: Apr 2010
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footwasher
Shipmate
# 15599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
See, that's a rich and robust unpacking of the material. Not like the impoverished pap we hear on any given Sunday morning.
Actually, it seems quite similar to what I hear on Sunday mornings. Perhaps you could point out how your sermon differs from the average "impoverished pap" one hears in other churches?
I think I'd prefer impoverished pap that I could make any sense of it that what Footwasher posted, which I couldn't.
Perhaps I'm just thick as shit.
With God everything is possible...
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Ship's crimp
Posts: 927 | From: pearl o' the orient | Registered: Apr 2010
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
See, that's a rich and robust unpacking of the material. Not like the impoverished pap we hear on any given Sunday morning.
Actually, it seems quite similar to what I hear on Sunday mornings. Perhaps you could point out how your sermon differs from the average "impoverished pap" one hears in other churches?
Which is more compelling?
To be told that the desired result is to escape eternal torment in hell (that's not even congruent with the image of a loving God, therefore leading to skepticism about the veracity of the message)
Or
To be told that you are escaping a futile way of living (something that is immediately obvious)?
Certainly the latter. Which is what I hear most Sundays-- but then these days I eschew the Calvinist denoms you seem to be more familiar with.
It's a good (biblical even) but not a new thought-- this is a common thread in NT Wright and a variety of other theologians and preachers, from both evangelical and mainline denoms. (Tony Campolo uses almost identical wording in fact: "saved from a fruitless way of life", whereas Wright favors "God's big rescue plan").
But that fact that you perceive this as a unique or distinctive pov goes exactly to the point I was making earlier-- that despite the fact that there are a large number of churches & preachers and theologians articulating precisely this pov, the airwaves have become so dominated by narrow fundamentalism (and in particular, Calvinist fundamentalism) that many, many people-- both Christians and non-Christians-- are simply not aware that there is anything else out there.
[ 29. February 2016, 16:37: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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footwasher
Shipmate
# 15599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
See, that's a rich and robust unpacking of the material. Not like the impoverished pap we hear on any given Sunday morning.
Actually, it seems quite similar to what I hear on Sunday mornings. Perhaps you could point out how your sermon differs from the average "impoverished pap" one hears in other churches?
Which is more compelling?
To be told that the desired result is to escape eternal torment in hell (that's not even congruent with the image of a loving God, therefore leading to skepticism about the veracity of the message)
Or
To be told that you are escaping a futile way of living (something that is immediately obvious)?
Certainly the latter. Which is what I hear most Sundays-- but then these days I eschew the Calvinist denoms you seem to be more familiar with.
It's a good (biblical even) but not a new thought-- this is a common thread in NT Wright and a variety of other theologians and preachers, from both evangelical and mainline denoms. (Tony Campolo uses almost identical wording in fact: "saved from a fruitless way of life", whereas Wright favors "God's big rescue plan").
But that fact that you perceive this as a unique or distinctive pov goes exactly to the point I was making earlier-- that despite the fact that there are a large number of churches & preachers and theologians articulating precisely this pov, the airwaves have become so dominated by narrow fundamentalism (and in particular, Calvinist fundamentalism) that many, many people-- both Christians and non-Christians-- are simply not aware that there is anything else out there.
Give me a link to an article or talk where the person tells the audience that all their work is going to amount to nothing, all the relationships they have built up is going the same way, all the efforts to create a good image or reputation, ditto.
If you say that this is common, then you should be seeing people throwing themselves on swords or off cliffs.That was the ultimate conclusion by the great Greek philosophies. All the heartaches and pains of life not worth going through, for the final payback.
Or, if not the above, desperately seeking for a way out.
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Ship's crimp
Posts: 927 | From: pearl o' the orient | Registered: Apr 2010
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
Which is more compelling?
To be told that the desired result is to escape eternal torment in hell (that's not even congruent with the image of a loving God, therefore leading to skepticism about the veracity of the message)
Or
To be told that you are escaping a futile way of living (something that is immediately obvious)?
Certainly the latter. Which is what I hear most Sundays-- but then these days I eschew the Calvinist denoms you seem to be more familiar with.
Shoot, it's what I hear most Sundays in the (historically, at least, and in many ways still) Calvinist, mainline denomination to which I belong.
. . . Well, except for the fact that given the Calvinism, I'm hearing that I have been rescued from a futile way of living, not that I am escaping it. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
See, that's a rich and robust unpacking of the material. Not like the impoverished pap we hear on any given Sunday morning.
Actually, it seems quite similar to what I hear on Sunday mornings. Perhaps you could point out how your sermon differs from the average "impoverished pap" one hears in other churches?
Which is more compelling?
To be told that the desired result is to escape eternal torment in hell (that's not even congruent with the image of a loving God, therefore leading to skepticism about the veracity of the message)
Or
To be told that you are escaping a futile way of living (something that is immediately obvious)?
Certainly the latter. Which is what I hear most Sundays-- but then these days I eschew the Calvinist denoms you seem to be more familiar with.
It's a good (biblical even) but not a new thought-- this is a common thread in NT Wright and a variety of other theologians and preachers, from both evangelical and mainline denoms. (Tony Campolo uses almost identical wording in fact: "saved from a fruitless way of life", whereas Wright favors "God's big rescue plan").
But that fact that you perceive this as a unique or distinctive pov goes exactly to the point I was making earlier-- that despite the fact that there are a large number of churches & preachers and theologians articulating precisely this pov, the airwaves have become so dominated by narrow fundamentalism (and in particular, Calvinist fundamentalism) that many, many people-- both Christians and non-Christians-- are simply not aware that there is anything else out there.
Give me a link to an article or talk where the person tells the audience that all their work is going to amount to nothing, all the relationships they have built up is going the same way, all the efforts to create a good image or reputation, ditto.
If you say that this is common, then you should be seeing people throwing themselves on swords or off cliffs.
You are moving the goal posts just a bit-- and in a typically Calvinist/total depravity sort of way. There is a difference between saying that our lives without Christ, our lives outside the Kingdom, are futile (Col. 1:13) and saying that everything we do and all our relationships are worthless. This sort of overreach is one (although not the most significant) of the problems I have with the hyper-Calvinist Dortian paradigm. And, to the OP, I think is one of the thing that detracts people from God-- since they can observe all sorts of nonbelievers out there in the real world doing good things and having good, positive relationships (as well as Christians doing not-so-good things and having destructive, broken relationships).
But to your earlier summary of the gospel as "rescued from a futile way of life", again, the two authors/theologians I mentioned earlier both use near identical language in these books, while still avoiding the overreach you seem to want to impress now:
Wright (vs. Piper) on salvation/ justification
Brian McLaren/ Tony Campolo: "rescued from a fruitless way of life"
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Well, yes, why is my life (without Christ) futile? I don't get that.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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