|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Bringing people back to God.
|
Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
My rector used to say that God was thumping on the church door, trying to get in.
Would it have better if God had been trying to get out?
That assumes that he's inside. I think my rector was saying that he wasn't, a rather bold claim, but I suppose rhetorical exaggeration. I'm happy to think that he's inside and outside, although I suppose that messes with lots of theology, maybe.
Like you, I think He's everywhere!
I think the rector had a deeper message to impart.
--------------------
It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
Posts: 267 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Sure - thanks Cliffdweller ... I was simply wondering aloud ...
I'm sure the work that church does in down-town LA is impressive ...
And yes, in principle I'm with you - that a 'good death' in terms of not clinging onto something for the sake of it but actively releasing it and 'letting it go' is a powerful thing ...
A lot to think about there.
I think there's an issue, though, about post-rationalisation ... if something simply runs out of steam and closes down then we could try to 'spiritualise' that in some way ... rather than simply accepting that it ran out of steam and closed down ...
But I take the point you're making.
We had a very liberal vicar here in one of the Anglican parishes who wasn't at all bothered whether his church closed - he thought the building would make a great restaurant. Actually, I disagree, I think it's a terrific church building and it does act as a good venue for concerts and events too ...
His successor seems to be trying to turn it round and make a good fist of it ... which is what I feel to be the best approach until such time as the situation does look to be untenable. I'm not sure they're there yet ... but youngsters and kids are very, very thin on the ground there in a way that they aren't at the evangelical parish.
I suspect, though, that any institution - and not just churches - is going to be unwilling to positively 'give up the ghost' ... but as you say, there's all the 'unless a grain of wheat ...' stuff.
Sometimes something has to die in order for there to be a resurrection as other posters have observed.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
|
Posted
In Scotland, there is a really depressing number of churches that have either been sold off or are on the market ready for conversion (an unfortunate turn of phrase).
I have read that about 3/4 years ago, the Presbyterian Church had recorded a mere 5000 baptisms.
Are we addressing the wrong issues on this website?
--------------------
It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
Posts: 267 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Aye, we have NOTHING to say, except to each other. Like 99...% of 'praise' and 'worship' services.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
|
Posted
I don't know if any church can "bring people back to God" but there are practical things we can do to encourage people back to church, if only we can be bothered to get the views of people who aren't regulars at our services.
For the past 10 years or so my place has informally asked that those of us with friends who visit and come to a service - especially non-churchgoers - encourage feedback and pass it on. And when we in our turn go to different churches we pass on for discussion and possible action anything we have encountered that seems particularly welcoming or useful. Some of the comments and suggestions have been enlightening, and while we thought we were pretty organised we try to take on board what our visitors find grating or odd. In particular: - getting sidespeople to smile and say "good morning"
- having a supplementary order of service which explains what is happening in the liturgy
- ensuring that orders of service aren't dog-eared and that the contents are easy to follow, especially rubrics
- not engulfing them in a tide of well-meaning flesh-pressers at The Peace
- offering refreshments at the end with a Church Guide in case they want to explore the building, rather than chat
- having good quality coffee, tea and biscuits
- play bags for younger children and orders of service specifically for them
- orders of service and the parish magazine available in large print versions
- keeping Notices that are read out to a minimum
- having noticeboards that are tidy, well-presented and relevant
- adjusting the heating clock so church is warmer than it used to be
We are very much a community church: other denominations aren't present without undertaking a journey of more than 10 miles so we do our best to ensure that those members of our congregation who were brought up in different traditions don't feel marginalised or uncomfortable. We are very aware that we are a church for the whole village, not just those who are nominally CofE.
Part of this involves using those traditional customs which may have lapsed elsewhere: we have Plough Sunday, on Rogation Sunday we have a walk around the local farms with prayers, reading and hymns, every villager who has died is remembered by name on the anniversary of the death and at All Souls, etc, etc, etc.
I don't know about leading people back to God but we do seem to bring people back to church, and even some into church who haven't been before. Yes, there aren't many in the 35-50 age range but we grit out teeth, take their children in Sunday School (amazing attendance thanks to a CofE secondary school in the nearest big town) and try to entice them to stay once the school place has been obtained.
--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
|
Posted
It doesn't hurt to remember that (although this may be different in those countries where there is a religious education component in the schools) a huge chunk of the population has no idea what happens in churches. Many people, now in their 20s and 30s, were raised in families with almost no church experience or knowledge. Their information about church life is garnered by channel surfing past television evangelists, the occasional glimpse of a papal ceremony on the national news, or a few minutes observing the scene of the bishop baptizing Ragnar, all conflated with scenes from Game of Thrones. They also go to weddings. That's it.
One my Orthie friends was complaining about this to his spiritual father, an immigrant priest who had done gulag time, and asked what could be done to remedy this. The answer of fasting and perhaps a few decades of sacrifical witness was not what he wanted.
Whatever one thinks of the Issue, there is a simple fact that most young people (in Canada, at any rate-- shipmates from other countries must do their own analysis) are raised in a rights culture, and perceive that the churches are homophobic. Protests that one's own parish isn't don't seem to change this perception. The overwhelming media presence of television evangelicals and the RCC have set public perception for the time being.
Some useful approaches are possible to overcome the ignorance-- if there are Open Doors programmes in your neighbourhood, this can bring in hundreds who visit various historical buildings. Music programming also provides an opportunity to get people in the building and time for a brief explanation of a congregation's work (aside from the valuable public service of providing a place for music in a community).
At the same time, there are many with a strong yearning for spiritual development. They rarely associate study groups with this, but they are intrigued by meditation, including the more spiritual form of yoga. Telling them that you are having a group work on the Book of Acts will not have much resonance for those who have never heard of it-- my favourite here was seeing a session entitled Synoptics for Seekers.
Perhaps with an aging population a focus on end-of-life discussions, and providing opportunities for spiritual care for mourners???
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
|
Posted
My church is trying a 'front porch' kind of outreach. The idea is to get people who know nothing of churches onto the front porch -- close, but not inside, so they can get an idea of what's going on. These events are always one-shot, intensely attractive and child-friendly, and arguably not religious in nature. I have waded waist-deep in children at the Halloween Trick Or Treat event, bucked seething hordes of bibliomanes at the August Used Book Sale, and worried about the fire marshal shutting us down at the Christmas Carol sing because we were stacked to the rafters.
--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Yeah we all experience that Brenda. But why ON EARTH would anyone want to come week in, week out to a concert interrupted by a lecture?
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
|
Posted
We clearly cannot win on entertainment grounds. There will always be something more thrilling to do with the time: on Netflix, outdoors, at restaurants, with your drinking buddies. I believe my church's current pitch is the community aspect -- exhibiting the body of believers, and hinting that you could join it.
--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
We clearly cannot win on entertainment grounds. There will always be something more thrilling to do with the time: on Netflix, outdoors, at restaurants, with your drinking buddies. I believe my church's current pitch is the community aspect -- exhibiting the body of believers, and hinting that you could join it.
Totally agree. I think the best thing we can do is be who we are-- a community of broken, flawed, often quirky people seeking God-- as authentically and transparently as possible, and tangibly demonstrate welcome those who are interested in what that's all about. It won't be what everyone is looking for all the time, or even most people most of the time. But there will be people who find themselves at a point in their lives where that's what they're looking for, and they'll appreciate the open door without all the smoke and mirrors.
--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
|
Posted
As someone who would love to be able to attend a weekly meeting where there is singing, a routine of words which make one think afresh each time they are repeated (I do not use the word 'inspirational' because it tends to make me wince!, with an opportunity to hear organ music played well, etc, I am sorry that such is not available minus mention of God at present. The biggest problem I think all churches with diminishing numbers have is that there is no God that any of them can bring people back to. To try to encourage people to have faith in something which is not available to any of their senses or to investigation or testing no longer works as it did in the days before the information age. Why should anyone believe in miracles when they know what medicine can do? Why should anyone accept the idea of resurrection when they are well aware of what actually happens to the bodies of living creatures when they die?
Please do not think that this is just an atheist negative point of view though, because this whole thread has been most interesting. I am all for just about everything done in a community by the people in them and would strongly defend their right to do so in the buildings and in the name of their chosen God, but just wish it could be realised that the idea of God is not a required element.
--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Why should anyone accept the idea of resurrection when they are well aware of what actually happens to the bodies of living creatures when they die?
Do you really think that people 2,000 years ago didn't understand what happens to the bodies of living creatures when they die?
--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
There was, perhaps still is, an atheist "service" discussed on Ship a couple years ago. Does anyone know if they're still going? London, i think.
Seems a little odd to me, like having a wedding without the couple, but whatever.
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
As someone who would love to be able to attend a weekly meeting where there is singing, a routine of words which make one think afresh each time they are repeated (I do not use the word 'inspirational' because it tends to make me wince!, with an opportunity to hear organ music played well, etc, I am sorry that such is not available minus mention of God at present.
Really? It offends you so much if someone mentions God that you must stay away? And yet, you have no issue with our speaking of God on the Ship.....
Without it being about God, there would be no point in Church Worship Services. There are plenty of organ and choir concerts, and singsongs, where God is not worshipped or mentioned at all. There are lots of 'inspirational' speakers captured on Youtube who don't mention God at all. Why are they not satisfactory?
As others have said, many have not left God, but they have left church as the people who attend are not the image of perfect Christians. Rather we are fallible human beings, hopefully allowing the Holy Spirit's guidance in our lives so that we will grow in patience, kindness, self control, gentleness, love of others, etc. These attributes in action help others to see God too. They might even come to Church, to find out more about the living God we worship. We can hope and pray, and do our best.
--------------------
Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
Yes it is still going and doing rather well.
Jengie
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Yes it is still going and doing rather well.
I love it - these are all the reasons I still attend Church.
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Anyone knocking on doors [in UK] and asking how he might serve people over here would either be told where to get off or else still be knocking doors in 50 years time with little but worn boot leather to show for it.
My point was not that this is common in the US-- it's not-- nor that it was always successful in American consumerist terms... What stood out to me in both stories was rather how unusual they were, how counter-cultural, in being willing to suggest that a church "dying" might be part of a bigger narrative....
Catching up. The stories are not about knocking on doors but finding out what people here in this neighborhood personally need. And that carries a risk - Someone needs a ride to the doctor one time, but someone else is on dialysis and needs a ride twice a week forever during normal work hours (when you have fewest volunteer), so the fear is being overwhelmed by the needs. Or fear they taking advantage of you by sending you to fetch groceries so they can stay home and watch the soaps.
Fear means nothing gets tried. But that can be handled by recognizing limits - don't knock on the second door until the first one's need has been met, and don't enable a person's ongoing dependency instead of problem solving.
But also, the effort was about the church being outward looking instead of expecting people to come to the building to serve the needs of the building and the institution.
But also, something Cliff Dweller mentioned, the spiritual awareness, how are people's needs being met in ways only God awareness fully offers? If we focus on projects any secular club can offer, are we doing the full job of a church?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
What a lovely idea.
Aye Brenda. Community. That would be nice. But again, where's the community in a concert interrupted by a lecture?
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Why should anyone accept the idea of resurrection when they are well aware of what actually happens to the bodies of living creatures when they die?
Do you really think that people 2,000 years ago didn't understand what happens to the bodies of living creatures when they die?
No of course I did not think that. However, from ancient times and cultures there have always been very large numbers of people who were convinced that some spirit or soul could survive. As far as I know, the only ancient culture that had atheists prepared to express such opposing ideas were the ancient Greeks. quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
As someone who would love to be able to attend a weekly meeting where there is singing, a routine of words which make one think afresh each time they are repeated (I do not use the word 'inspirational' because it tends to make me wince!, with an opportunity to hear organ music played well, etc, I am sorry that such is not available minus mention of God at present.
Really? It offends you so much if someone mentions God that you must stay away?
No, it certainly does not ‘offend’ me – as a church-goer for half my life, I fully understand how one can feel as a believer. I used the word ‘wince’ because now, as an atheist, I would so much want to dispute the idea of and belief in God, that it would be wrong of me to spend my time at a CofE service. quote:
And yet, you have no issue with our speaking of God on the Ship.....
Yes! That’s because it is always so interesting to read all the different viewpoints. The only discussion group near enough to me has a rule that religious questions are not allowed – but that sort of philosophical discussion would be the most interesting part. The reason was that people might be offended. Well, such precious sensitivity rather inhibits discussion, doesn’t it? quote:
Without it being about God, there would be no point in Church Worship Services. There are plenty of organ and choir concerts, and singsongs, where God is not worshipped or mentioned at all. There are lots of 'inspirational' speakers captured on Youtube who don't mention God at all. Why are they not satisfactory?
I agree with that of course, but the ‘but’ here is that I need taking to and guiding at concerts; I’m a bit old for inspirational stuff, but thank you for the suggestion re you tubes etc. quote:
As others have said, many have not left God, but they have left church as the people who attend are not the image of perfect Christians. Rather we are fallible human beings, hopefully allowing the Holy Spirit's guidance in our lives so that we will grow in patience, kindness, self control, gentleness, love of others, etc. These attributes in action help others to see God too. They might even come to Church, to find out more about the living God we worship. We can hope and pray, and do our best.
Very interesting - thank you. On Sunday morning, as I was doing my usual walk and hearing the church (recorded!) bells, I did give a passing thought to directing my steps that-a-way, but immediately decided I preferred the exercise and (with hearing aids on) listening to the bird song all around. quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Yes it is still going and doing rather well.
Jengie
Thank you for posting the link.
--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
quote:
SusanDoris: As far as I know, the only ancient culture that had atheists prepared to express such opposing ideas were the ancient Greeks.
It is always difficult to impose a modern word like 'atheism' on ancient cultures, but it is arguable that the Samkhya, Mīmāṃsā, Jain and Cārvāka schools in India (all several centuries BC) can be described as atheist.
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
SusanDoris: As far as I know, the only ancient culture that had atheists prepared to express such opposing ideas were the ancient Greeks.
It is always difficult to impose a modern word like 'atheism' on ancient cultures, but it is arguable that the Samkhya, Mīmāṃsā, Jain and Cārvāka schools in India (all several centuries BC) can be described as atheist.
Thank you - I have had a look at Sankhya in wikipedia. Interesting. Indian cultures still involve a great deal of praying to various gods though, don't they, even though they do not appear to have a one creator god. I will read more.
--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
quote:
SusanDoris: Indian cultures still involve a great deal of praying to various gods though, don't they, even though they do not appear to have a one creator god.
I'm sure that, try as they might, they won't be able to live up to your standards of atheism.
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
The biggest problem I think all churches with diminishing numbers have is that there is no God that any of them can bring people back to. To try to encourage people to have faith in something which is not available to any of their senses or to investigation or testing no longer works as it did in the days before the information age. Why should anyone believe in miracles when they know what medicine can do? Why should anyone accept the idea of resurrection when they are well aware of what actually happens to the bodies of living creatures when they die?
Why indeed. If it was so obvious to rational people that theistic religion was bunk, why do you think we still believe in it?
As far as I can see, you've just got to accept that we really believe in it, despite being relatively rational.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Indian cultures still involve a great deal of praying to various gods though, don't they, even though they do not appear to have a one creator god.
English cultures also involve a great deal of praying, but that doesn't exclude atheism as a philosophical standpoint among some of the English.
Buddhism also classically denies a creator God but does allow for many beliefs that would be regarded as supernatural.
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I'm sure that, try as they might, they won't be able to live up to your standards of atheism.
There are, of course no 'standards' of atheism! I lacka belief in any god. And that's the best definition of atheism. quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
If it was so obvious to rational people that theistic religion was bunk, why do you think we still believe in it?
It wasn't 'bunk', it was humans, having evolved with the ability to think about and question their existence and their surroundings, coming up with the answer that there must be a cause, which had many names and forms. quote:
As far as I can see, you've just got to accept that we really believe in it, despite being relatively rational.
Well, unfortunately I can't disagree with that!! I shall, however, maintain my optimism that by the time I die quite a few more of the world's population will have come to the same conclusion as atheists. quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
English cultures also involve a great deal of praying, but that doesn't exclude atheism as a philosophical standpoint among some of the English.
Buddhism also classically denies a creator God but does allow for many beliefs that would be regarded as supernatural.
Oh dear! I do of course have to agree with you too. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) )
--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I shall, however, maintain my optimism that by the time I die quite a few more of the world's population will have come to the same conclusion as atheists.
Why? Even if you are right, what possible gain would there be?
It seems to me that you so value your own faulty thinking that you are unable to see anything good in the other position.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
|
Posted
To Hosts: If this post is a bit OTT, Please let me know. quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I shall, however, maintain my optimism that by the time I die quite a few more of the world's population will have come to the same conclusion as atheists.
Why? Even if you are right, what possible gain would there be?
Okay. Fortified by coffee and a (well, two actually) slice of toast and marmalade, with feet tucked into my electrically-heated footwarmer, and having to wait indoors instead of being out in the sun because of a delivery, I will try and answer!
Human nature being what it has evolved to be, with enough strong and basically good survivors to allow for the large number whose aim is to destroy others for a whole list of excuses to exist, it is inevitable that there will always be a mixture. However, the good that a lack of belief in any God/god/s could do is to enable people to understand that all the knowledghe, all the behaviours, all the good and all the bad is done by humans, entirely by humans. There would be no need for time to be spent (I wil refrain from using the word 'wasted' here) in acquiring all the gold and silver ware, rich vestments, palaces, planes, cars, etc etc for the leaders of religions and all the energy involved could be spent on education of young people, so they learn and understand the history and reasons for all religious beliefs; on providing clean water, and all the other good things we in the developed world are lucky enough to have; on better communication of the above; on finding ways to re-direct the violent, ddestructive nature of terrorists into more tolerant ways of behaving.
Yes, I know that is an unreachable goal and that there are good people everywhere who do their best to work toward improving the life of others, but if they are doing it in the name of any god, or think there is any god providing any kind of back-up, then the parts of their minds that are used by this could be totally focused on the fact that human thinking is 100% of it. quote:
It seems to me that you so value your own faulty thinking…
Can you think of a reason why I should agree with your description of my thinking as ‘faulty’?! quote:
t…hat you are unable to see anything good in the other position.
Of course it is obvious that there is good in the ‘other positionin the same way that every single human has a genetic make-up which gives them a set of characteristics ranging from the horrible to the very good. Very few indeed are wholly reliant on themselves and do not need any other human being at all for any aspect of living from when they become independent until their death. After all, one of the main reasons for our species survival was the co-operation amongst groups of humans.
At this point, please imagine me saying the words of the woman who, at the end of several series of Morecambe and Wise shows, would advance from the back of the stage, fling them apart and say, ‘Thank you for coming to my little show,’ or, in this case, ‘reading my post’!
--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
|
Posted
Yes, I think we should all get back to having wars about territory, about oil, about resources. We could have human rights abuses and still do nice stuff like digging wells for clean water. We could argue and riot about politics and the rich - poor divide. In the future we will likely have riots, uprisings, wars and terrorism about wealth and even basic stuff like food and clean water access. But atheism will solve all of that because human beings are all so wonderful and kind and good that we will live in a complete utopia where not one solitary person will ever think to themselves, 'I am better than that person' or, 'I deserve more than them.'
I think this has to be the biggest crock of shit post I've ever read here. If you can't see faulty thinking in it, well I have no words....
--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Yes, I think we should all get back to having wars about territory, about oil, about resources. We could have human rights abuses and still do nice stuff like digging wells for clean water. We could argue and riot about politics and the rich - poor divide. In the future we will likely have riots, uprisings, wars and terrorism about wealth and even basic stuff like food and clean water access. But atheism will solve all of that because human beings are all so wonderful and kind and good that we will live in a complete utopia where not one solitary person will ever think to themselves, 'I am better than that person' or, 'I deserve more than them.'
I think this has to be the biggest crock of shit post I've ever read here. If you can't see faulty thinking in it, well I have no words....
Hold your fire, Tex! Unless I'm being unfairly generous to Susan Doris, her point is that atheism doesn't offer anything—that's the point. Atheism is not a philosophy or way of life; not any more than how you define yourself by your lack of belief in fairies or Thor.
K.
[ 22. March 2016, 11:16: Message edited by: Komensky ]
--------------------
"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Why should anyone accept the idea of resurrection when they are well aware of what actually happens to the bodies of living creatures when they die?
Do you really think that people 2,000 years ago didn't understand what happens to the bodies of living creatures when they die?
No of course I did not think that. However, from ancient times and cultures there have always been very large numbers of people who were convinced that some spirit or soul could survive.
Well, that's different from what you said. Originally, you asked why anyone should believe in resurrection when they know what happens to the body at death. Now you've switched to talking about souls or spirits, which by definition are not bodies.
I'm not aware of any scientific evidence that souls do not exist. And there are, of course, atheists who believe that people have souls that live on after death.
--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
[QUOTE]
I'm not aware of any scientific evidence that souls do not exist.
Are you for real? I'm not aware of any scientific evidence that proves there isn't a magical purple donkey living on one of the moons of planet Zingbo.
K.
[ 22. March 2016, 11:30: Message edited by: Komensky ]
--------------------
"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
|
Posted
Posted by Komensky:
quote:
Hold your fire, Tex! Unless I'm being unfairly generous to Susan Doris, her point is that atheism doesn't offer anything—that's the point. Atheism is not a philosophy or way of life; not any more than how you define yourself by your lack of belief in fairies or Thor.
You're being unfairly generous. She is arguing that old, old, tired and weak argument that religion is the cause of all ill in society, that without it we would all be so much better, that atheism is a sort of solution in a non-solution sort of way. Now that's a Facebook argument for the Fox News generation. It shows no respect for anyone, least of all the people you are having a 'reasoned' debate with. It boils down to playground debate where feigned politeness hides an ugly truth.
Atheism has much to commend it, but it is far from apparent here.
--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Human nature being what it has evolved to be, with enough strong and basically good survivors to allow for the large number whose aim is to destroy others for a whole list of excuses to exist, it is inevitable that there will always be a mixture. However, the good that a lack of belief in any God/god/s could do is to enable people to understand that all the knowledghe, all the behaviours, all the good and all the bad is done by humans, entirely by humans. There would be no need for time to be spent (I wil refrain from using the word 'wasted' here) in acquiring all the gold and silver ware, rich vestments, palaces, planes, cars, etc etc for the leaders of religions and all the energy involved could be spent on education of young people, so they learn and understand the history and reasons for all religious beliefs; on providing clean water, and all the other good things we in the developed world are lucky enough to have; on better communication of the above; on finding ways to re-direct the violent, ddestructive nature of terrorists into more tolerant ways of behaving.
Also no need for poetry, for art, for beautiful music: can't explain it, therefore it isn't worth anything.
I think your ideas are morally bankrupt. If nothing matters then nothing is worth spending any time on other than myself in the here-and-now.
But, unlike you, I'm fully willing to allow and indeed encourage atheists in whatever way they need to be encouraged for the sake of human flourishing. Nothing is gained from me trying to "insist" that atheists become theists nor in me trying to have a rosy-tinted image of human evolution that says every other bugger will eventually give up all their stupid ideas and agree with me.
I suggest you might like to be rather more generous with people who do not agree with you.
quote:
Yes, I know that is an unreachable goal and that there are good people everywhere who do their best to work toward improving the life of others, but if they are doing it in the name of any god, or think there is any god providing any kind of back-up, then the parts of their minds that are used by this could be totally focused on the fact that human thinking is 100% of it.
This is utter gibberish. I can point to you to many people with deep faith who are totally committed to "improving the lives of others" because their understanding of the deity suggests that self-sacrifice is part of the deal.
Yes, there are also atheists that do stuff - but your thesis that only the non-theist has time to put into serving others is easily disproved.
quote:
Can you think of a reason why I should agree with your description of my thinking as ‘faulty’?!
I think most people of goodwill acknowledge that there is something positive in the alternative view - whereas it appears you are only interested in religion to the extent that it trains you in how to destroy it.
Your thinking is faulty because it is totally lacking in nuance. And actually any sympathy or goodwill in believing that there are people of faith who are not just deluded. Or somehow not using their brains properly.
quote:
Of course it is obvious that there is good in the ‘other positionin the same way that every single human has a genetic make-up which gives them a set of characteristics ranging from the horrible to the very good. Very few indeed are wholly reliant on themselves and do not need any other human being at all for any aspect of living from when they become independent until their death. After all, one of the main reasons for our species survival was the co-operation amongst groups of humans.
At this point, please imagine me saying the words of the woman who, at the end of several series of Morecambe and Wise shows, would advance from the back of the stage, fling them apart and say, ‘Thank you for coming to my little show,’ or, in this case, ‘reading my post’!
That's a pretty poor excuse for the things you've said. Totally lacking in any sense of generosity.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
I'm not aware of any scientific evidence that souls do not exist.
Are you for real? I'm not aware of any scientific evidence that proves there isn't a magical purple donkey living on one of the moons of planet Zingbo.
Sure, I'm for real. Aside from the fact that I don't think these are comparable predicates—SusanDoris said there have always been very large numbers of people who have believed that souls or spirits exist, and I'm not aware that very large numbers of people throughout history have believed that a magic purple donkey lives on a moon of planet Zingbo—the point is that SusanDoris was suggesting (and I am perhaps reading in from her other posts) that, unlike those people in the past, we now know that souls or spirits do not exist. I was simply saying that science has not proved what she presents as having been established.
--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
As the subject is at rather a tangent to this thread I have opened another to maybe direct our thoughts towards whether religion is pointless or not.
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
|
Posted
It is the idea that if only everyone else saw things the way we do, everything would be fine and dandy, so let's insist on it which feeds terrorism. That includes militant atheism as well as any militant religious stance.
If only everyone would know God, the world would be a much better place. I believe that, but will always allow you to hold another opinion.
--------------------
Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
|
Posted
In a last-ditch attempt to steer the topic back toward the OP. Fr Weber has made the best point. The most important thing is whether or not the central tenets (here we go…) of Christianity are true. If they're (basically) true, then the need to make those truths relevant seems a weird task indeed. If you see or hear the word 'relevant' anywhere near a church you can bet it will closely resemble daytime TV or some kind of gig of a bubblegum pop act.
K.
[ 22. March 2016, 13:00: Message edited by: Komensky ]
--------------------
"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Yes, I think we should all get back to having wars about territory, about oil, about resources.
<snip>
But atheism will solve all of that because human beings are all so wonderful and kind and good that we will live in a complete utopia where not one solitary person will ever think to themselves, 'I am better than that person' or, 'I deserve more than them.'
I did not intend to imply any of the above negative possibilities and I am sorry if you thought I did. Maybe the negativity is in you, not me.
I see that Boogie has started a new thread .
--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
She is arguing that old, old, tired and weak argument that religion is the cause of all ill in society, that without it we would all be so much better, that atheism is a sort of solution in a non-solution sort of way.
Here again, you infer something I do not imply. I have never blamed religions, it is 100% the people who invent the gods, believe their claims and assertions, and make up the rules; some of those people tell others they must do this or that anti-social act because some god has ordered it.
Other people have of course encouraged their followers to do all kinds of good things because their God has orderd it.
--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
I was simply saying that science has not proved what she presents as having been established.
But that's the old negative proof fallacy, isn't it?
--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
As the subject is at rather a tangent to this thread I have opened another to maybe direct our thoughts towards whether religion is pointless or not.
Thank you for saying. I'll leave this and join that.
--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
|
Posted
Just a quick P.S. - thank you for your posts, Komensky
--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
I was simply saying that science has not proved what she presents as having been established.
But that's the old negative proof fallacy, isn't it?
Not on my part, no, because I am not asserting a proposition to be proven at all. It is you who have asserted, in essence, that unlike many people of the past, people now know that souls and/ore spirits do not exist. Yet you have not presented any evidence of how this is known.
--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
I was simply saying that science has not proved what she presents as having been established.
But that's the old negative proof fallacy, isn't it?
Not on my part, no, because I am not asserting a proposition to be proven at all. It is you who have asserted, in essence, that unlike many people of the past, people now know that souls and/ore spirits do not exist. Yet you have not presented any evidence of how this is known.
Again, the burden of proof is on you. Pathetic try.
K.
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
I think it could actually be argued both ways. This is one reason why we shouldn't feel that we can assert rules of debate and rhetoric.
There is no obvious steady-state position with regard to the existence of the soul, hence there neither sides (or both sides) can be said to be arguing the novel position which needs to be defended with evidence.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
|
Posted
Posted by Susan;
quote:
Here again, you infer something I do not imply
No, you're quite right, you didn't imply it, you stated it in black and white.
--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Again, the burden of proof is on you. Pathetic try.
There is no burden of proof on me when I haven't set out to prove anything. I am under no obligation to prove that SusanDoris's assertion is wrong, but I am entitled to ask her the basis of that assertion.
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I think it could actually be argued both ways. This is one reason why we shouldn't feel that we can assert rules of debate and rhetoric.
There is no obvious steady-state position with regard to the existence of the soul, hence there neither sides (or both sides) can be said to be arguing the novel position which needs to be defended with evidence.
I agree, more or less. I will admit I approached this with some recollection of previous threads, where it has been asserted that "of course, we know . . . ," with no basis for the assertion given other than "we know" and a general appeal to science. Perhaps it was not helpful for me to do so.
--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
It's utterly obvious that in the modern world and beyond many came to know that there is no supernatural realm. Or never knew that there was beyond the age of 6. They KNOW. Supernaturalism is very much a function of deprivation.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
I was simply saying that science has not proved what she presents as having been established.
But that's the old negative proof fallacy, isn't it?
That was his point. And it applies as much to your argument as it does to his.
--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Supernaturalism breaks Occam's razor vertically.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
