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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Is religion wasting valuable time and resources?
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Susan Doris raised an interesting point here.
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
... there are good people everywhere who do their best to work toward improving the life of others, but if they are doing it in the name of any god, or think there is any god providing any kind of back-up, then the parts of their minds that are used by this could be totally focused on the fact that human thinking is 100% of it.
I go to a Church where a lot of good work is done, including food banks, soup kitchens, lunches for the elderly etc.
My friend was asked by one of the homeless why she does it and she replied "I am a Christian, which means I follow Jesus and I do it because Jesus asked me to". A good answer I think. They do no overt prosthelytising when carrying out these good works.
But would they do better/more if they didn't worship God? Or does the worship recharge their batteries?
Would those who spread evil in the name of their religion cease or just find another excuse?
Is belief in God/Gods really a problem?
Is religion part of 'human flourishing' (quoting Mr Cheesy) or is co-operation between humans all that is needed.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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starbelly
but you can call me Neil
# 25
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Posted
I think this is massively complex, on the one hand lots of awful things that people have done might not of been done if they didn't have the self-justification and the nudge of their religious beliefs to do it...
On the other hand many people would not have confidence to do some of the good things they do without religion... on this front I part with the new atheists view that religion poisons everything.
The same could maybe said for political beliefs though?
Neil
Posts: 6009 | From: High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire. | Registered: May 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
It is the same problem if we confine the question to one subset: church buildings, for instance. Clearly it is very expensive indeed to build glorious cathedrals, and the money would be far better used housing the homeless and feeding the hungry. Jesus said nothing about building Gothic!
But, OTOH, it is in churches and cathedrals that you get the best of the art of certain ages. It would be a poorer world, without Chartres and Notre Dame. Without rich patrons paying for adorning churches, Da Vinci and Michelangelo would not have been artists. Bach would have composed advertising jingles.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
Insofar as the OP assumes that the good works are the end and the "religion" bit merely the means, I think it is based on a false premise.
For the RCC, as I'm sure for many others, the worship of God is principal duty of the Church - it is the supreme end. Doing good works are also essential - we are commanded to love our neighbour as ourselves - and are also ends, not means, but they are subordinate ends.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
For the RCC, as I'm sure for many others, the worship of God is principal duty of the Church - it is the supreme end. Doing good works are also essential - we are commanded to love our neighbour as ourselves - and are also ends, not means, but they are subordinate ends.
Another reason why I am not an RC. The first Commandment is to love God. The second is like it: to love our neighbour as ourselves.
Indeed, in loving our neighbour, we are loving God. No subordination or division necessary.
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arse
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Indeed, calling the love for our neighbours subordinate to our love for God seems like a direct violation of Jesus' command to me.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
For the RCC, as I'm sure for many others, the worship of God is principal duty of the Church - it is the supreme end. Doing good works are also essential - we are commanded to love our neighbour as ourselves - and are also ends, not means, but they are subordinate ends.
Another reason why I am not an RC. The first Commandment is to love God. The second is like it: to love our neighbour as ourselves.
Indeed, in loving our neighbour, we are loving God. No subordination or division necessary.
Although, Chesterbelloc's RC response doesn't look very different from the reformed protestant Westminster Shorter Catechism's formulation: "What is the chief end of man? The chief end of man is to glorify God, and enjoy him forever."
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
Although, Chesterbelloc's RC response doesn't look very different from the reformed protestant Westminster Shorter Catechism's formulation: "What is the chief end of man? The chief end of man is to glorify God, and enjoy him forever."
Maybe. I didn't say I rated that either.
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arse
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
I'm of the opinion that nothing worthy of worship requires it, but everything worthy of appreciation deserves it.
In terms of wasted time and attention, I think that's for the individual to determine. IMO, what you get out of it largely depends on what you put into it.
If we are talking purely about the ethical quandaries of inequality of social justice, and the availability of human time and attention to balance this equation, I think the remedy for that was prescribed to us in the Great Commandment.
That's a social experiment I would dearly love to see put successfully into practice.
AFF
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
It is the same problem if we confine the question to one subset: church buildings, for instance. Clearly it is very expensive indeed to build glorious cathedrals, and the money would be far better used housing the homeless and feeding the hungry. Jesus said nothing about building Gothic!
But, OTOH, it is in churches and cathedrals that you get the best of the art of certain ages. It would be a poorer world, without Chartres and Notre Dame. Without rich patrons paying for adorning churches, Da Vinci and Michelangelo would not have been artists. Bach would have composed advertising jingles.
I don't think that is at all the same question as the OP. This question can be answered quite easily by Jesus' anointing at Bethany and the response to the indignant disciples - beautifying worship v spending on the poor is not a new question!
The OP is asking about the value of religion with regards to serving the poor, not how best to serve the poor from a religious perspective.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
I'm going to say no.
I am coming to believe that religion (meaning rituals in one's life, belief in something beyond oneself) is a necessary part of human psychology. I believe this because of what biology, evolutionary psychology and sociology tells us about our species but you can just as easily believe it's because a god made us that way without it altering the idea that religion is crucial to us.
Religion, in the broad sense of something that encourages one to look beyond oneself, to find meaning in life and purpose in what is quite often a chaotic and meaningless mess, isn't a 'waste of time and resources' because it allows us to be sentient, self aware and not to go mad at the chaos, randomness and apparent cruelty of life. It also allows us to bind ourselves together in communities and groups which allowed us to survive in our pre-agricultural and pre-industrial times.
It's open to abuse and misuse of course, but so are all large institutions or systematic approaches to life. So much as I'd love to blame religion for all ills, I can't and won't because it won't stand up.
The problem we have to overcome (if we can and how we can do this is yet to be determined) is how to live in communities both locally and globally with others whose ideas about religion and identity are in opposition to our own.
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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starbelly
but you can call me Neil
# 25
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Macrina:
Religion, in the broad sense of something that encourages one to look beyond oneself, to find meaning in life and purpose in what is quite often a chaotic and meaningless mess, isn't a 'waste of time and resources' because it allows us to be sentient, self aware and not to go mad at the chaos, randomness and apparent cruelty of life. It also allows us to bind ourselves together in communities and groups which allowed us to survive in our pre-agricultural and pre-industrial times.
Love this sentiment, and am going to steal it for my own use
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Neil
Posts: 6009 | From: High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire. | Registered: May 2001
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
For the RCC, as I'm sure for many others, the worship of God is principal duty of the Church - it is the supreme end. Doing good works are also essential - we are commanded to love our neighbour as ourselves - and are also ends, not means, but they are subordinate ends.
Another reason why I am not an RC. The first Commandment is to love God. The second is like it: to love our neighbour as ourselves.
Indeed, in loving our neighbour, we are loving God. No subordination or division necessary.
The subordination is right there in the utterance of Jesus : "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment."
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
For the RCC, as I'm sure for many others, the worship of God is principal duty of the Church - it is the supreme end. Doing good works are also essential - we are commanded to love our neighbour as ourselves - and are also ends, not means, but they are subordinate ends.
Another reason why I am not an RC. The first Commandment is to love God. The second is like it: to love our neighbour as ourselves.
Indeed, in loving our neighbour, we are loving God. No subordination or division necessary.
And yet this is not quite how Jesus put it in Matthew: quote:
Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great[est]* commandment. And the second is like unto it[.]
*This passage is rendered as "great" or "greatest", depending on the particular translation used.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
[X-p'd with Fr W, obvs.]
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
*This passage is rendered as "great" or "greatest", depending on the particular translation used.
I'm not going to play proof-texting, but I think Matthew 25 is fairly clear that loving the neighbour is loving God. But of course YMMV.
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arse
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
I think worship has to be seen as an end in itself. I can't think of any ends that it could be the most efficient means to.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
Let me see if I've got this right, mr cheesy: it's not proof-texting when you quote scripture, but it is proof-texting when I use the same verses to show you that your eisegesis is not supported by that that very text? M'okay.
As Fr W says, the ranking is right there in the text itself. If both "parts" of that commandment basically break down as "love your neighbour" why did Jesus separate them and call the God bit the "first and great/est" of them?
[ 22. March 2016, 16:09: Message edited by: Chesterbelloc ]
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
There is NO argument mr cheesy. Loving God is meaningless if it doesn't translate to loving neighbour.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I'm not ducking SusanDoris's question, but let me ask another one which I think is similar. Leave God out of it for a moment and suppose I help people in need because I have a great love for people both in general and in particular. I care about them and part of my time is spent thinking about them, hoping that they are happy, and reflecting on the value of being part of the human race in all its wonderful and multi-faceted glory, as expressed by me and shown to me in the help that I am fortunate enough to be able to give.
Is my thinking and reflecting in that way a waste of time and effort because I'm not spending them thinking about improving the balance and calorific value of peoples' diets, or trying to negotiate a bulk order of warm socks for the local rough sleepers, or even making a fuss with the council about the lack of cold weather shelters?
I'd say no, for much the same reason as I'd say that religion and worship- even if (and we're getting into rocky ground here) there is actaully no God or God is indifferent whether I worship or not- is not a waste of time. It's about the element of love, of relationship, of belief about your place in the universe and the wishes, affections and duties that flow from that. Take all that away, whether or not you fit God into the picture, and the world, and your actions within it however materially beneficial to others, become very chilly indeed.
[ 22. March 2016, 16:55: Message edited by: Albertus ]
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
I don't understand the OP. In what sense could worship of God be a waste of time?
If God is there, than I worship him (and in so doing declare Him to be the self-causing source of unprovable Truth, including unprovable Truths about what constitutes a waste of time). I pray to be saved from myself.
If He is not there, then the category 'waste of time' ceases to exist, for who would define it?
Sod it, ETA something inflammatory. In proposing to depose God's worship from the 'top of the tree' in the cause of 'valuable resources', the OP proposes worship of neighbour as the ultimate good.
Good luck, and choose your neighbours with great care.
[ 22. March 2016, 16:59: Message edited by: mark_in_manchester ]
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Loving God is meaningless if it doesn't translate to loving neighbour.
If by that you mean that love of God is entirely reducible without remainder to love of neighbour, then that rather makes a nonsense of what Jesus taught, doncha think?
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Chesterbelloc: If by that you mean that love of God is entirely reducible without remainder to love of neighbour, then that rather makes a nonsense of what Jesus taught, doncha think?
No, it doesn't.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It is what Jesus taught.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
Let me see if I've got this right, mr cheesy: it's not proof-texting when you quote scripture, but it is proof-texting when I use the same verses to show you that your eisegesis is not supported by that that very text? M'okay.
Well no. What I meant was that this is not the forum to debate bible verses, if you want to do that there is a perfectly formed place on this website called Kerygmania.
I'm telling you that I consider the chapter I mentioned above to be indicative of Jesus' attitude that serving neighbour = serving God.
I appreciate that you think differently and that you consider the RCC doctrine as you've expressed it to be correct.
If you want to compare biblical interpretations, then fine let's discuss that. Just not here. Comprende?
quote:
As Fr W says, the ranking is right there in the text itself. If both "parts" of that commandment basically break down as "love your neighbour" why did Jesus separate them and call the God bit the "first and great/est" of them?
Why indeed. I don't consider asking this question to be enough to completely disprove my idea - we just have two bits of gospel scripture which apparently say different things.
I have some ideas, but again, that's not the purpose of Purgatory.
[ 22. March 2016, 17:15: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
So , does either of you want to have a go at parsing the "greatest" commandment verses such that it is both still meaningful and yields no remainder?
If you're both right and love of God precisely equals love of neighbour with no remainder then Christ is telling us that love of neighbour is first and great(er) than love of neighbour. What do you think that means?
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
mr cheesy, you were the one who brought that particular scripture passage into the discussion. If you had no intention of defending your claim in regard to it on this thread, why did you introduce it to this thread?
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
mr cheesy, you were the one who brought that particular scripture passage into the discussion. If you had no intention of defending your claim in regard to it on this thread, why did you introduce it to this thread?
No sorry, you introduced "good works" as subservient to "worship" and I disagreed. You then offered one verse and I offered a chapter, making it fairly clear that I believed this was not the place to trade bible verses.
I don't agree with you or your doctrine. No biggie.
If you want to discuss how we should interpret these verses, then we need to do it elsewhere. That's all.
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arse
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
quote:
Loving God is meaningless if it doesn't translate to loving neighbour.
True. "If a man love not his brother who he has seen, how can he love God who is has never seen".
But I don't think it works the other way, namely that care to others is per se love to God. It brings in the idea of "unaware believers" which I think it a little patronising towards those like SusanDoris and other atheists, who would totally reject the idea that they are loving God by caring for others.
Plus, assuming you don't just junk it, the NT makes it clear that Jesus saw love as including keeping his commandments. It is not obvious to me that caring for others involves this. Is it not possible to care for others without ever making the slightest attempt to pray? If my wife were to care for my kids and never speak to me, I would be grateful for the care given to the kids, but less sure of her love to me. And prayer is only one example.
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Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I go to a Church where a lot of good work is done, including food banks, soup kitchens, lunches for the elderly etc.
My friend was asked by one of the homeless why she does it and she replied "I am a Christian, which means I follow Jesus and I do it because Jesus asked me to". A good answer I think.
It is obviously a very good thing that people help others as a result of being inspired by others' advice and the example of said others' altruistic behaviour. If my circumstances were different, I would undertake some kind of voluntary work. It would be because it is a human, helpful thing to do. It would have no connection with an associated religious belief but the results would be the same. quote:
But would they do better/more if they didn't worship God? Or does the worship recharge their batteries?
That probably would not make any difference to the amount of effort and care they put into the work, since they are the same human beings whether they believe in and worship God or not. quote:
Would those who spread evil in the name of their religion cease or just find another excuse?
In current circumstances, that is far too difficult a question I think. quote:
Is belief in God/Gods really a problem?
Only if those who believe in a god hurt, kill, and aim to control and have power over others. quote:
Is religion part of 'human flourishing' (quoting Mr Cheesy) or is co-operation between humans all that is needed.
It has been an integral part of human history, but since it is clear that humanists and atheists, plus members of NSS etc, live full and happy lives without any belief in any god, then no idea of god is actually essential.
Not a very good response, but I have spent a lot of time thinking about it.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Albertus
Very interesting post.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I go to a Church where a lot of good work is done, including food banks, soup kitchens, lunches for the elderly etc.
My friend was asked by one of the homeless why she does it and she replied "I am a Christian, which means I follow Jesus and I do it because Jesus asked me to". A good answer I think. They do no overt prosthelytising when carrying out these good works.
But would they do better/more if they didn't worship God? Or does the worship recharge their batteries?
Would those who spread evil in the name of their religion cease or just find another excuse?
Is belief in God/Gods really a problem?
Is religion part of 'human flourishing' (quoting Mr Cheesy) or is co-operation between humans all that is needed.
What motivates us to help other people, if not love? Some do so for kudos, status, because it makes them feel good about themselves, or because they like to look down on 'the needy'. Might we genuinely love others as equal to ourselves - all members of the human family - without loving God first? A genuine question. I know I didn't.
I don't worship to recharge my batteries. I worship to express my love of God along with others who love God, but I often do receive a boost from God, either during worship or in private devotions.
Belief in the living God is not a problem, quite the opposite, as above. What is a problem is if we try to impose our belief or lack of it on others. Invite, yes. Impose, no.
I believe that our relationship with God, via our interaction and co-operation with Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit, helps us to flourish both individually and collectively in community.
Time in prayer is time well spent.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
The question puts the cart before the horse.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
Sod it, ETA something inflammatory. In proposing to depose God's worship from the 'top of the tree' in the cause of 'valuable resources', the OP proposes worship of neighbour as the ultimate good.
The OP doesn't propose anything, it asks a series of questions.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
I'm sorry, you're right. I'll try again, and remove some redundancy from the end of the sentence too:
'If we depose God's worship from the 'top of the tree' in the cause of 'valuable resources', as we are invited to consider in the OP, then we propose worship of neighbour.'
[ 22. March 2016, 21:07: Message edited by: mark_in_manchester ]
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
We propose worship of God in and through neighbour, as the top of the tree.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
Sod it, ETA something inflammatory. In proposing to depose God's worship from the 'top of the tree' in the cause of 'valuable resources', the OP proposes worship of neighbour as the ultimate good.
Good luck, and choose your neighbours with great care.
![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I'll tell you all straight out that I do any number of things* for Jesus that I would never do for money. I'm afraid love of neighbor is a weaker motivator as well.
* Dealing with bodily effluvia, paperwork, government agencies...
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Agreed, most of us are appallingly inadequate humanists even with God let alone without Him.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
mr cheesy, you were the one who brought that particular scripture passage into the discussion. If you had no intention of defending your claim in regard to it on this thread, why did you introduce it to this thread?
No sorry, you introduced "good works" as subservient to "worship" and I disagreed. You then offered one verse and I offered a chapter, making it fairly clear that I believed this was not the place to trade bible verses.
I don't agree with you or your doctrine. No biggie.
If you want to discuss how we should interpret these verses, then we need to do it elsewhere. That's all.
Not wishing to be tedious, but I want to get this straight.
The closest I came to citing scripture was admitting that of course we were commanded to love our neighbour. You were the one who then went on the actually quote the Matthean passage that the second commandment was "like" the first, claiming by that that the passage proved that there was no subordination of the second to the first.
You were making a scriptural case for your opinion.
I merely questioned how strong your case was given that the subordination you denied was right there in the verses immediately adjacent to the one you quoted.
Have a quick look upthread and you'll see that's actually the way things went.
To say now that you're not interested in swapping biblical quotes is nothing to the point - I was merely quoting back to you the immediate context of the snippet you cited.
I cannot for the life of me see why, given your eagerness to quote the Matthean passage to me as evidence for your contention, you cannot respond to my observation right here rather than dismissing it as out-of-place proof-texting that really belongs in Kerygmania.
I'm afraid it looks to me as if you just don't want to address the prima facie contradiction of your scriptural observation by its immediate context.
Your choice, of course.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'm telling you that I consider the chapter I mentioned above to be indicative of Jesus' attitude that serving neighbour = serving God.
I agree that serving neighbour is a form of serving God. I don't think one can say it's identical to serving God without slipping into some form of pantheism.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
We're panENtheist here. So, apart from serving neighbour, how else can one serve, worship God? In emotional hygiene, in gratitude, in looking after ones property from the body out, in walking, working, aging, dying, of course, in everything.
But the top of the tree is the privilege of worshiping Him IN, AS, through ALL others.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
So, apart from serving neighbour, how else can one serve, worship God?
Well, Jesus seemed to be pretty keen on both private prayer and public, cultic worship. So there's that.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Has Jesus said anything about cultic worship? (Out of curiosity.)
[ 23. March 2016, 09:29: Message edited by: LeRoc ]
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
He worshipped in the Temple.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
More to the point he instituted the Eucharist, which can certainly be described in cultic terms.
Sharing, equality, stewardship and thanksgiving at the heart of the characteristically Christian act of worship .
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
Yup - that too.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It's the idea of 'valuable time' which I find strange, but I suppose for some Christians, there is a kind of utilitarian ethic at work? I mean, I used to work with people, helping them (in therapy), and now I don't. However, I don't consider my time now as less valuable.
In fact, I don't know how one measures this. A lazy afternoon walking along the river is valuable to me. But as I said, some Christians strike me as adopting a very utility-focused viewpoint, OK, fair enough. I am too old and gnarly for that!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
In the OP the question was posed more from a secular point of view as to whether Christians were wasting time that could be considered valuable and put to better use. Whatever the Christians are guilty of, coming up with the concept of "valuable time" isn't one of them on this thread.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
In the OP the question was posed more from a secular point of view as to whether Christians were wasting time that could be considered valuable and put to better use. Whatever the Christians are guilty of, coming up with the concept of "valuable time" isn't one of them on this thread.
OK, but you could argue that some elements of Christianity directly challenge the notion of valuable time, couldn't you? For example, they toil not, neither do they spin.
It's just my impression that utilitarianism has become a big strand in Christian thinking and practice, especially in Protestantism.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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