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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Sex workers
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
There was a time when I would have considered sex work to be something incompatible with Christianity. Along with assassin and thief and other such work. It is not the illegality of sex work that was, for me the problem, but rather the selling of ones body for sex that seemed to be incompatible.
However, in recent years, I have become less certain about this, at least in some cases. Now, I do think those who are forced into it as the only way to make money should be helped out, and I do think that the less well regulated parts are not only degrading, but dangerous.
However there are a number of people - women largely, of course - who do this out of choice. As Belle de Jour (Secret Diary of a Call Girl) said "I like sex and I like making money". I am not convinced that in these cases, it is fundamentally wrong.
So what do others think? Is it morally wrong, or is it a valid choice for some people? Is it a role that is inconsistent with being a Christian?
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Blog
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Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
As Belle de Jour (Secret Diary of a Call Girl) said "I like sex and I like making money". I am not convinced that in these cases, it is fundamentally wrong.
And Clyde Barrow might have said, "I like robbing banks and I like making money." Would you then doubt that robbing banks is fundamentally wrong?
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
My question would be 'where is the hurt/harm?' Any activity which hurts nobody and harms nothing/no-one is fine, is it not?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
My question would be 'where is the hurt/harm?' Any activity which hurts nobody and harms nothing/no-one is fine, is it not?
So, agreeing to work for a penny an hour should be legal, then?
(I'm generally pro-legalization of sex work, both for buyers and sellers, but I do think that the argument from individualism is somewhat problematic, given that most people besides far-right libertarians think that economic choices can and should be limited by the state.)
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
My question would be 'where is the hurt/harm?' Any activity which hurts nobody and harms nothing/no-one is fine, is it not?
So, agreeing to work for a penny an hour should be legal, then?
No - it is harmful to pay poor wages.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
My question would be 'where is the hurt/harm?' Any activity which hurts nobody and harms nothing/no-one is fine, is it not?
So, agreeing to work for a penny an hour should be legal, then?
No - it is harmful to pay poor wages.
Then why do people agree to work for them?
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Because they are desperate. Which brings you around to the probably-not-wrong prostitution: survival sex, when it's a choice between prostitution or starvation.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Then why do people agree to work for them?
Because they have no alternative.
Going back to the original question, though, at the core of what is euphemistically called 'sex-work' is committing either fornication or adultery. Both are sinful whether done for money, pleasure or even both.
One can weep with those who are forced into this by horrible life circumstances. It is not though a lifestyle that is a valid choice for anyone who has that freedom of choice, particularly not for anyone who spite's to be a Christian.
Amanda B. Reckondwythe has hit the nail firmly and squarely on the head. Beyond that, I don't see any wriggle room for discussion.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
As Belle de Jour (Secret Diary of a Call Girl) said "I like sex and I like making money". I am not convinced that in these cases, it is fundamentally wrong.
And Clyde Barrow might have said, "I like robbing banks and I like making money." Would you then doubt that robbing banks is fundamentally wrong?
But robbing banks is hurting me, depriving me, without my consent. Sex is with my consent. It is very different.
The only reason for the quote is that in her case, is was an explicit choice, because it was something she was good at.
You may consider it immoral, but then I consider making your money working in the finance area, or as a politician is also morally compromising role too. Many jobs I have had in my time have moral challenges involved. That doesn't mean they are wrong.
As Boogie said, who is being hurt? I don't see anyone being hurt (necessarily), even if you may not agree with it.
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Blog
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Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
My question would be 'where is the hurt/harm?' Any activity which hurts nobody and harms nothing/no-one is fine, is it not?
I'd go along with that, can't see the bank robbery analogy working myself.
Because sex work is, in the main carried out by females, and because several Millennia of patriarchy has seen females disadvantaged, it somehow seems to follow that we feel compelled to view the selling of intimate activity by females as wrong.
What's the difference between having a massage and paying for it or having sex and paying for it?
Clearly prostitution can be problematic, but as with anything bordering on prohibition it's the seedy, underground culture attracted to it that is cause of many of those problems.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
You may consider it immoral, but then I consider making your money working in the finance area, or as a politician is also morally compromising role too. Many jobs I have had in my time have moral challenges involved. That doesn't mean they are wrong.
On the contrary. That's what "immoral" means. Wrong.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
If only life were so simple.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Hmmmm. So the alternatives are Bronze Age, conservative, pious condemnation or if it feels good do it?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
There are questions which feed into this:
Is sex outside of relationship healthy?
Is it OK to allow someone to abuse our bodies as long as cash compensation is paid? (this has wider implications, eg we might consider boxing, wrestling etc too, except that the abuse is far less intimate)
I think that both male and female prostitution, and use of prostitutes, are inconsistent with living out the life of a Christian disciple, because love and respect between human beings is not the message being conveyed.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
Setting aside the absolute labels "moral" and "immoral" for a moment . . .
I can choose to have sex with someone because I find the person attractive and would like to experience the thrill of having him stimulate me in that way, or . . .
I can choose to have sex with someone because, even though I find him unattractive, even repulsive, he's going to pay me money for it.
Now, which is moral and which is immoral?
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
It appears that research about prostitution coincides with Christian morality.
Article: The real harms of prostitution. By psychologist Melissa Farley PhD.
quote:
There is no evidence for the theory that legalisation somehow - how is never specified - decreases the harm of prostitution....
In fact, legalisation increases trafficking, increases prostitution of children, and increases sex buyers’ demands for cheaper or "unrestricted" sex acts ... Whether prostitution is legal or illegal, research shows that the poorer she is, and the longer she’s been in prostitution, the more likely she is to experience violence. The emotional consequences of prostitution are the same whether prostitution is legal or illegal...
More than 90 per cent of those in it tell us that they want escape from prostitution.
The article goes on to discuss that harms have not decreased with legalisation in terms of violence, and that 68% of people who are prostitutes have post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD).
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
However there are a number of people - women largely, of course - who do this out of choice.
When so many people have so few options or mostly bad options, yeah, this is going to happen. I'm far more concerned with the inequalities of a society in which prostitution is for some people their best career choice, and still more concerned about the many, many sex workers who in fact don't really have a choice.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Setting aside the absolute labels "moral" and "immoral" for a moment . . .
I can choose to have sex with someone because I find the person attractive and would like to experience the thrill of having him stimulate me in that way, or . . .
I can choose to have sex with someone because, even though I find him unattractive, even repulsive, he's going to pay me money for it.
Now, which is moral and which is immoral?
The OP's example was of a woman who both chose to have sex because she enjoyed it and got paid for it.
So she got paid for her favourite activity which she was good at.
Given that she doesn't especially need the money, is it immoral?
I still do a little work (teaching!) I don't need the money, I just enjoy the work and spending time chatting with teachers in the staffroom at lunch time a couple of days a week. The OP's example sounds rather like me - but in a very different profession!
<edited because, teacher or not, I still can't spell!>
[ 19. March 2016, 19:33: Message edited by: Boogie ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
By psychologist Melissa Farley PhD.
This is Wikipedia on Dr Farley. She seems to be a highly controversial figure.
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Is it OK to allow someone to abuse our bodies as long as cash compensation is paid?
Many sex workers would argue that sex isn't abuse, it's simply a service.
Schroedinger's cat, I found this forum for sex workers fascinating.
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
The juxtaposition of Christianity and prostitution made me think of the godly Sonya/Sonechka in Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
Many sex workers would argue that sex isn't abuse, it's simply a service.
Precisely. It's a commodity that's been in demand for thousands of years. If the person giving the service has voluntarily agreed to be available for that purpose why shouldn't they be recompensed for their time and effort?
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
... and if a person has voluntarily agreed to be eaten by a cannibal and signed a legal paper and everything, why shouldn't these two consenting adults get on with it?
The argument works for both situations.
The Christian argument would be "you do not own yourself and you do not have permission to do something harmful to your self" (with further exploration of how prostitution harms people emotionally, physically, etc. etc.)
The state argument would be "even if it works for you in your very unusual one-of-a-kind situation, the example you are setting is encouraging others to carry on in ways that very much resemble yours but are in addition clearly harmful. We have an interest in stopping such things, and thus we have an interest in curtailing such examples."
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
It's a commodity that's been in demand for thousands of years. If the person giving the service has voluntarily agreed to be available for that purpose why shouldn't they be recompensed for their time and effort?
Exactly. Talk of inequality and abuse confuses the issue. These are the things that are immoral not the exchange of a bodily need/function for money.
Many people claim they enjoy their jobs, even some soldiers who are required to kill other human beings. He who is moral cast the first stone?
Magdalene was cast as a prostitute yet she was the first to witness the Risen Christ. Furthermore Christianity has, over the Centuries, had such a befuddled and difficult relationship with sex I don,t see how, as a yardstick , it can ever be used to measure right from wrong where the voluntary selling of it is concerned.
[ 19. March 2016, 22:17: Message edited by: rolyn ]
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
People who sell sex tend to have a much higher likelihood than others of having already been abused, and a massively higher risk of future abuse. Then there is the slavery, violence, rape and child abuse associated with the trade.
Some argue this is a product of the prohibition itself - but I seriously doubt that. I think it is a result of a person being treated as a commodity.
Why shouldn't such and such a one in a thousand exception be free to do what he she likes ? Because the associated consequence is the exploitation of the 999 people entering the trade in a far more common situation.
I notice Belle de jour has now chosen to do something else, and use a differnt name to distance herself from her former profession, I wonder why that is ?
[ 19. March 2016, 22:52: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
Many sex workers would argue that sex isn't abuse, it's simply a service.
Precisely. It's a commodity that's been in demand for thousands of years. If the person giving the service has voluntarily agreed to be available for that purpose why shouldn't they be recompensed for their time and effort?
Treating human beings as a commodity seems wrong somehow.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
And is sex work the only profession where people are treated as commodities? I don't think that's the case.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
And is sex work the only profession where people are treated as commodities? I don't think that's the case.
Of course not. And it's wrong that people are treated as commodities everywhere it happens.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
But we do not say automatically that all those other instances should be illegal.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
And I'm not sure it helps much to make prostitution illegal. Pimping and trafficking, yes, those should be illegal. But I'd rather we made our society equitable and then see if people really want to prostitute themselves.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
I'll agree with you on that, but I suspect that as long as there is a market there will be those willing to do it.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
But we do not say automatically that all those other instances should be illegal.
I didn't say ANYTHING about legality. Not. One. Word.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
And is sex work the only profession where people are treated as commodities? I don't think that's the case.
I think every profession or job is subject to that, isn't it? Certainly those that focus on externals: modeling, acting. People serving in menial jobs are often treated as mere commodities-- a food-dispensing machine or a cleaning machine-- rather than as real people with real feelings and real stories. Heck, sometimes even as a pastor I feel that way-- that I am a role to some people, that they forget I have a real life and real feelings/story (e.g. when they forgot to care for me the way they care for each other when my mom died). I think we are all prone to treating one another as commodities, maybe even more so in a capitalist/consumerist society. It takes effort to remember to treat one another as a child of God. It shouldn't, but it does-- at least for me.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
There are a lot of well-known problems with the sex industry: (mostly) women being trafficked, exploited, raped, abused by pimps, forced into prostitution as the only available source of income and so on. It's clear that nobody in that kind of situation is making free choices, and what we're looking at are victims rather than sinners.
There are arguments that in order to protect these people (the large majority of those involved in prostitution) we should act against all prostitution. There's a lot to be said for those arguments.
But putting that aside, SC's question assumed a willing prostitute. Someone who has options, could have a career doing something else, but prefers to have sex for money.
The question is not "should this be illegal" but "is this immoral". These are different questions.
For me, there's no question. If you believe that sex is more than a pleasant recreation, and I do, then it's fundamentally immoral to make it a commodity subject to sale.
If you don't think there's a difference between sex and a massage, or a haircut, then I'd expect you to draw a different conclusion.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
There are a lot of well-known problems with the sex industry: (mostly) women being trafficked, exploited, raped, abused by pimps, forced into prostitution as the only available source of income and so on. It's clear that nobody in that kind of situation is making free choices, and what we're looking at are victims rather than sinners.
As someone who knows a whole bunch of prostitutes and people who are at least accused of being pimps, I disagree.
While your allegations may certainly be the case, I'm certain they are not always the case, and increasingly suspicious that they represent a media-fuelled gloss on something much more complex.
After asking a lot of people questions in multiple countries over several years, I think that contrary to the narrative believed with almost religious faith (often on little or no evidence from what I can make out) by the courts here, many of the girls appear to know precisely what they are getting into and see the work as a way of getting into Europe to earn a living and thus provide for their families back in their home country.
What the courts rule as pimping can be nothing more than providing accommodation for a few months for a compatriot or relative against a small amount for rent.
Many of the girls (and the accused pimps) I know self-identify as wholehearted evangelical Christians who know their Bibles and attend church assiduously.
For an interesting Bible take on this subject, consider that biblical heroine Esther, someone who was basically pimped by that biblical hero Mordecai to further the cause of her people.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
I notice Belle de jour has now chosen to do something else, and use a differnt name to distance herself from her former profession, I wonder why that is ?
I don't think she's chosen to do something else. She's always been a scientist - she just did sex work as well for a time. You could say the same about a student doing bar work.
Most escorts use pseudo-names because society shames prostitutes. That says nothing about whether or not sex work itself is damaging or immoral.
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
But we do not say automatically that all those other instances should be illegal.
I didn't say ANYTHING about legality. Not. One. Word.
No one said that you did.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I suppose I should clarify that those who are forced into any form of work I do have sympathy with, and would help them get out of it if I could.
Several years ago, my son took a short-term, zero hours contract with Amazon. For some of those, this was a desperately needed work, and it was damaging and abusive (not least when they stopped them early). Those who are forced into taking these roles, are being comoditised, abused by the system, and for them, this is wrong.
However for my son, this was perfect. It was some work, paid some money, and he didn't mind the night shifts.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I'd just like to say that one has to be very careful when suggesting sex work is incompatible with Christianity.
In my opinion, it is highly likely that those most vocal about the sinfulness of prostitution are themselves regular users of porn and/or prostitutes. It almost seems to be the rule of these things: there is a form of self-flagulation of the very thing you can't escape from so the way to deflect is to pass the blame onto someone else.
Sex work is mind-numbing in the most literal of ways; very regular sexual activity numbs the mind and body. In fact, I believe that porn actors and other sex workers encourage this kind of detachment to get themselves through the experience.
It is also risky and very likely shortens life and has life-altering physical effects. It is also associated with other damaging effects such as drug or alcohol additions.
But describing particular activities as being spiritually corrosive is a very tricky concept, in my opinion. I think there is a long history of an association between Christianity and Prostitution - and no specific indication that prostitutes always left the profession.
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arse
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Belle du Jour wrote a book debunking the myths around sex, called The Sex Myth: Why Everything we are told is wrong - Guardian/Observer review or Independent Review
She challenges the figures on how many people are trafficked for sex (around 1,000), rather than much higher numbers of illegal immigrant men involved in cockle collection or other food production.
She also suggests that
quote:
Myths about sex propagate in the western world because so many (older) people have very limited direct experience. Repressive "moral" policies achieve greater publicity and support at times of economic crisis – as currently illustrated in the US.
from the Guardian review.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'd just like to say that one has to be very careful when suggesting sex work is incompatible with Christianity.
In my opinion, it is highly likely that those most vocal about the sinfulness of prostitution are themselves regular users of porn and/or prostitutes.
The idea that prostitutes are somehow more sinful than customers of prostitutes is completely absurd. If the act of prostitution is sinful, then both parties are equally sinners.
If one takes a step back and tries to assign blame, then it's likely that in almost all cases, the customers of prostitutes have rather more agency than the prostitutes themselves.
To suggest that prostitutes are somehow worse than their customers is exactly the same patriarchal virginity-cult bullshit that applies different sexual standards to men and women, and there's absolutely no reasonable basis for it.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I suppose there is one part of me that suspects the problem with sex workers* is a) that they are females earning some money and b) that they are engaged in sex. It seems that the churches problems with both women and sex might be what drives a lot of this.
As I think the church is very wrong on both of these (historically), I have to question whether they are wrong on sex workers.
*I use this term, as I believe it is the one those engaged in it favour. It has less immediately negative connotations than the alternatives.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
There are a lot of well-known problems with the sex industry: (mostly) women being trafficked, exploited, raped, abused by pimps, forced into prostitution as the only available source of income and so on. It's clear that nobody in that kind of situation is making free choices, and what we're looking at are victims rather than sinners.
As someone who knows a whole bunch of prostitutes and people who are at least accused of being pimps, I disagree.
While your allegations may certainly be the case, I'm certain they are not always the case, and increasingly suspicious that they represent a media-fuelled gloss on something much more complex.
After asking a lot of people questions in multiple countries over several years, I think that contrary to the narrative believed with almost religious faith (often on little or no evidence from what I can make out) by the courts here, many of the girls appear to know precisely what they are getting into and see the work as a way of getting into Europe to earn a living and thus provide for their families back in their home country.
What the courts rule as pimping can be nothing more than providing accommodation for a few months for a compatriot or relative against a small amount for rent.
Many of the girls (and the accused pimps) I know self-identify as wholehearted evangelical Christians who know their Bibles and attend church assiduously.
For an interesting Bible take on this subject, consider that biblical heroine Esther, someone who was basically pimped by that biblical hero Mordecai to further the cause of her people.
This is a very interesting post, as I think there are lots of narratives about sex work, and I've always wondered how many are backed up empirically, and how many simply sustain somebody's prejudices.
I can't contribute in terms of empirical knowledge, since I've rarely worked with sex workers. But I question the idea that paid for sex erodes one's self-worth and personality. I don't know if that's true.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Ariel
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# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I suppose there is one part of me that suspects the problem with sex workers* is a) that they are females earning some money and b) that they are engaged in sex. It seems that the churches problems with both women and sex might be what drives a lot of this.
I've sometimes wondered whether it hasn't been based on jealousy. In previous centuries, a man married to a woman he didn't particularly get on with or find particularly attractive might well have preferred a woman who made herself deliberately enticing, flattered him, was good for his ego, and better in bed than his wife, who was probably struggling with the Christian notion that the whole thing was sinful and disgusting anyway. She would bitterly have resented not just the infidelity but also, in some ways, the freedom such a woman would have had; being outside the rules she could wear what she pleased, have fine clothes and jewellery, and would also get quite a lot more male attention. Some of the more famous courtesans of history were quite popular. Some also made the effort to be well educated and up on the current political situation.
It is somewhat removed from the average streetwalker who was doing it basically to pay the rent and feed the children, of course. But there is a sense in which some courtesans had a freedom the average woman of the era probably didn't have.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
The girl I drove past late one swirling winter's night in Northampton, in fur jacket and micro-skirt, waiting for a truck driver to detour off the M1, was no courtesan.
A princess of God yes.
Like the scarred young Scouse girl and her boy pimp who accosted me in Liverpool by the cathedral, I bought McDonalds finest for. She smiled and said "You're married aren't you?".
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Brenda Clough
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# 18061
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Posted
The Naomi-and-Ruth thing could also be assessed quite coldly. Did Boaz stand a chance against the two of them?
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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rolyn
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# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I suppose there is one part of me that suspects the problem with sex workers* ........
*I use this term, as I believe it is the one those engaged in it favour. It has less immediately negative connotations than the alternatives.
You are right there.
As we all know from current difficulties, the church has unfortunately lost much of it's credibility in matters pertaining to sex. A lot of this is of course down to the post -contraception/antibiotic/abortions off the shelf revolution, something that could not have been foreseen when Christian doctrine was first conceived .
But on the very specific matter of prostitution the Church has been exposed as peddling something of a myth over Mary Magdelene being a reformed prostitute, and in doing so has shamed the oldest profession for last 2000 years. All that we can really gleen from the Gospels on Magdelene is that she had a problematic past, possibly got caught in adultery but quite definitely fell for Jesus.
Apart from negative conatation, the other problem with female sex work, (leaving aside for a moment the fact that many disadvantaged and vulnerable people get caught up in it), is that it is usually examined through the patriarchal lens. Therefore the common perception, by both male and female, is one of romanticism and disgust in almost equal measure.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
How to put this? Once again, we're all making the mistake, we're revealing, that we don't understand incarnation. So, if something is imperfect, we have to try to find ways round recognising that it is, but that some people - including perhaps us, though I suspect not in this particular case - are stuck in it. The answer to imperfection isn't denial, it's redemption.
Meanwhile, though, I also can't help being reminded of this. I'm surprised nobody has already referred to it on this thread.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
While your allegations may certainly be the case, I'm certain they are not always the case, and increasingly suspicious that they represent a media-fuelled gloss on something much more complex.
I too am fairly suspicious of such figures for much the same reasons, whilst some of these allegations may be the case, a quick post mortem on some of the big raids that are high-lighted in the media is a good corrective. Generally the actual convictions centre around running a disorderly house - the actual number of trafficking offenses is miniscule.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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