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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Atheists in the United Church of Canada
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
Atheist minister fights to remain in the pulpit
Just how far should any church bend over to allow different or non-existent views of God?
In the case in question, the person has been around for years. Her views are well-known. Should she remain in the pulpit? Her denomination is considering removing her.
This may be purgatorial. In that case, would the closest pitchfork move it?
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
I reckon she's saying what a lot of others are thinking.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Probably quite normal and healthy to think God is non existent. I shouln't have thought there's much harm in believing She and He is around about loving the bones of us now and again.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
I give much more weight to a pastor's ability to help people on their journeys to love god and show compassion to their fellow humans than to a pastor's private loyalty to a denomination's stated belief set. Sometimes the latter can get in the way of the former.
sabine
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Couldn't get the link, but if she is an atheist in a plain unequivocal there-is-literally-no-God sense, or anywhere near it, and she's not prepared to keep that to herself, she shouldn't be in the Christian ministry- especially if she's drawing a stipend. Attending church, sure- that's up to her and I'm comfortable with people belonging without believing. But if she really is an atheist, for once I agree with Mr Cheesy- if she had any backbone she'd go.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I suppose it depends on what you think the role of ordained clergy in the UCC is. If it's to counsel parishioners, preach on the Bible, and perform the sacraments (if they have sacraments), are those things that an atheist cannot do? Why?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif)
You could have just asked for the actual details, instead of falling for a CBC windup.
Gretta Vosper is a windup merchant of the first order. Per the usual procedure for such matters, the United Church ignored her for years, in the hopes she would get bored and quit. If she quit talking, that would be good, if she quit the ministry, so much the better.
Alas, it was not to be. She is addicted to fame and attention. She has been trying to goad the Church for years to charge her. Her downfall was that she failed to gather enough supporters at her current congregation in Toronto, which was known for being quite middle-of-the-road and not given to radicals like her. Some of her parishioners lodged a complaint about her beliefs with Toronto Conference, who were finally goaded into action.
United Church of Canada ministers have to affirm that they are in "essential agreement" with the Articles of Faith in the Basis of Union, and in Gretta Vosper's case she is so far from them it isn't funny.
Why she hasn't resigned before now is some everyone in the United Church of Canada wants to know.
Thus the United Church of Canada will have its first heresy trial ever. Not that we wanted to do this, we don't want to give Gretta Vosper just what she wants, even more fame.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I've listened a bit to the interview in Pete's link and I found nothing she said very shocking.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
This is assuredly not Hellish, and I'm reasonably certain it's not Eccles-fodder.
Going up.
DT
HH
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I suppose it depends on what you think the role of ordained clergy in the UCC is. If it's to counsel parishioners, preach on the Bible, and perform the sacraments (if they have sacraments), are those things that an atheist cannot do? Why?
MT, there are UCCan churches a few hours drive from where you live. Do I really have to spell this out for you?
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I think there may be a difference between being a member of a congregation that entertains these thoughts and the leader of the church saying things that you are in a minority of one in expressing.
If there was only one church or social body or profession that one could be part of in Canada, then that'd be one thing. But that's not the situation here; she's clearly taking the benefits - and presumably income - from her role in the UCC whilst not affirming the basis of faith.
So leave already. Set up another church, become part of an atheist somethingorother, retrain as a counsellor, become a public speaker, write books or whatever rocks your boat.
But don't just keep on using the platform given to you by an organisation you clearly no longer believe in. Because that's rude, that is.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I've listened a bit to the interview in Pete's link and I found nothing she said very shocking.
The interview won't load on this computer, but assuming that the most shocking thing she said was that she is an atheist, well, that would, indeed, not be very shocking.
Were she a Unitarian minister.
But, of course, she's not a Unitarian minister. She's a UCC minister. And, as far as I know(confirmed by SPK), the UCC requires their clergy to believe in God.
So, no offense to atheists(no exagggeration to say "some of my best friends are..."), but maybe she should try to find a different line of work, possibly even as a cleric, in a place that is more amenable to her particular beliefs?
[ 02. April 2016, 16:33: Message edited by: Stetson ]
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
It is perhaps not completely fair comparison, but most professionals which are regulated by some sort of body require the licensed members to adhere to some sort of code of conduct and ethics. Thus I can see these situation very much as SPK describes, and I appreciate understanding that she was trawling for attention.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
MT, there are UCCan churches a few hours drive from where you live. Do I really have to spell this out for you?
That's not helpful. Why would mousethief be expected to know something about a different denomination in a different country? The same charge could be levelled against you, if you were unaware of the dynamics of the LCMS ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Anyway, there is a simple reason why Gretta hasn't resigned: $$$. She has said so herself in an interview: there isn't an equivalent atheist organization to pay her. Hurray for integrity.
I think she should resign. The UCC is an inclusive church. GV just chose to focus on the "inclusive" part rather than the "church" part.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
That's not helpful. Why would mousethief be expected to know something about a different denomination in a different country? The same charge could be levelled against you, if you were unaware of the dynamics of the LCMS
Just as a point of fact, but I'm pretty sure the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod has churces in Canada as well.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
I am curious to know just how an openly atheist minister could bless and administer even the memorialist sacrements? Or does she have an assistant to do this for her on the occasions when the sacrement is celebrated?
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
The United Church isn't memorialist and that's part of Vosper's problem. And no, she wasn't recusing herself.
But the fact that she has no intellectual integrity has been well-established.
Here are the Articles of Faith in web format; the national church website has them in pdf format.
Twenty Articles
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
One point I noted in the interview was that she was specific that she didn't believe in a "theistic" god. Maybe she's a deist. That still doesn't make her much of a fit for a Christian denomination.
I had to chuckle at her assertion that she thought fifty percent of people in the church believe as she believes. I think that is a classic case of surrounding yourself with like-minded thinkers. I have a super liberal friend like that who couldn't comprehend why I would think that Bernie Sanders wasn't electable as POTUS.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
I have a super liberal friend like that who couldn't comprehend why I would think that Bernie Sanders wasn't electable as POTUS.
Or the FOX News anchors on election night 2012, who couldn't fathom that Obama had won(despite the fact that the polls had consistently shown him ahead), and went backstage to ask the statisticians for confirmation.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
One point I noted in the interview was that she was specific that she didn't believe in a "theistic" god. Maybe she's a deist. That still doesn't make her much of a fit for a Christian denomination.
I had to chuckle at her assertion that she thought fifty percent of people in the church believe as she believes. I think that is a classic case of surrounding yourself with like-minded thinkers. I have a super liberal friend like that who couldn't comprehend why I would think that Bernie Sanders wasn't electable as POTUS.
There are two 'factions' in the United Church of Canada. The Rads and the Trads. I am Trad (Traditionalist). Gretta Vosper lives in Toronto which tends to be Rad (Radical), particularly the closer downtown you get. That may be true in urban Toronto, it is NOT true across Toronto Conference, let alone the entire United Church.
Just to be clear, it appears Gretta Vosper is on her last legs:
From her own congregation's website.
Gretta Vosper was ordered to be re-examined under the authority of Toronto Conference, the church court with supervising authority in this case. Unusually, Nora Sanders (herself rather more a rad, and a lawyer to boot) issued a clear guideline for this re-examination in her role as General Secretary of General Council, the UCCan's chief legal and procedural advisor, for Toronto Conference to use. Gretta Vosper appealed the entire process to the Judicial Committee of General Council, who refused the appeal.
She will now be re-examined, and the expected result is obvious given her public statements. The Examination Committee will recommend action to Toronto Conference, who may place her involuntarily on the Discontinues Service List.
And a large part of the United Church, myself included, will say "good riddance".
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
I have heard Ms Vosper on the radio on two occasions, and sat at a coffeehouse table with her and some others a year ago (refugee stuff), and none of these occasions enlightened me on how she ever passed her philosophy or theological courses. She seems to have little understanding of language (at all), let alone theological language. It has never been clear to me what she is doing cashing a UCC paycheque. I do not know if senior clergy or laypeople in her area ever sat her down to have a Full and Frank discussion with her, but if they had, she should have listened.
While I think that many Canadian pew-dwellers are fairly fuzzy on what, exactly, they believe, the clergy have had training to enable them to clarify their own positions and express them. Traditionally, UCC educational standards have been high, but I am not sure how much Ms Vosper can be said to be an exemplar of this (translators of bureaucratspeak know exactly what I am saying here). That she impresses journalists is a commentary on that profession.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
That she impresses journalists is a commentary on that profession.
When it comes to religion, journalists tend to be impressed by anyone who appears to be heretical, especially if it involves quesstioning long-held doctrines.
Sometimes it even gets to the point of overstating or even mis-stating the current hegemony of a particular doctrine. For example, whenever the Pope issues a statement that alludes to an acceptance of the theory of evolution, headlines will read "CATHOLIC CHURCH ADMITS EVOLUTION IS TRUE!!", ignoring the fact that the Church has been more or less saying that since some time in the mid-20th Century.
I don't think this is neccessarily an example of liberal bias, as some conservatives might complain, as it is an example of "novelty" bias. There isn't much clickbait to be had in headlines about how religious people continue to believe the same things we've alwways assumed they believe.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Quite a number of people, including other ministers, have had multiple conversations with her. As I said, she is a windup merchant, and has stated she has wanted this for years. She wanted a platform to be a martyr, and the United Church would not give it to her until it became apparent she would not resign.
There have been other cases of atheist ministers, but they took the hint and either resigned or retired, and didn't make a public fuss. That is a personal spiritual tragedy, but not in itself wrong. That is the way these things are usually handled, quietly behind the scenes with a great deal of discretion.
Ma Preacher remembers her when she was a quite conventional minister. Her congregation, West Hill United Church, was also known for being quite middle-class and middle-of-the-road, so the fact that they even called her was quite surprising.
Apparently when doing funerals and such if someone objected to her phrasing or theology, she will trot out the conventional forms, say it quite well, while believing none of it. She has long had a problem with intellectual integrity.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
I am somewhat confused that her congregation, as a whole, appears to support her (at least on the website). I am also quite surprised by the fact she has been at that charge for nearly 20 years. It has been my understanding that most ministries in the United Church are time limited. Perhaps I am wrong.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
That is the crux of her problem. The complaint that originated this entire process came from within her congregation. Those are the only people who had standing to make such a complaint that Toronto Presbytery would listen to. SOP in other cases is that complaints originating outside the congregation are dismissed.
Ministries used to be limited to 5-7 years, but that has grown to 15-20 years at present. Moving costs have soared and that had limited ministers mobility. The fact that spouses often have their own careers only adds to the trouble. There never was any set rule on time limits, just a practice.
And different parties in the congregation disagreeing with each other. That's only being going on since forever.
[ 02. April 2016, 20:24: Message edited by: Sober Preacher's Kid ]
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
And different parties in the congregation disagreeing with each other. That's only being going on since forever.
Amen Brother.
I suspect you got your disciplinary process from the Congregationalists, it sounds oddly similar to the old Congregational Church of England Practices. Nobody expects THE COMMITTEE.
Jengie
[ 02. April 2016, 20:44: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
This reminds me of the case of Rev Klaas Hendriske of the Protestant Church in the Netherlands. Although a self-proclaimed atheist, his denomination finally allowed him to remain in his post until he retired. Is the Protestant Church in the Netherlands hugely different from the United Church of Canada in its theological and denominational antecedents? Perhaps the difference between them on this topic is down to their sociological contexts, as well as the agenda and personality of the ministers concerned.
Interestingly, the French atheist philosopher Andre Comte-Sponville wrote that a minister who loses his or her faith should remain in post. He seems to think that the heritage of spiritual and pastoral care, and the maintenance of old rituals, are more important than the content of a minister's faith.
I wonder if the sacrament of holy orders, as some religious groups see it, could lead to the same outcome that Comte-Sponville desires: clergy whose status, whether viewed in divine or merely historical terms, makes their vocation far more important than the orthodoxy of their theological standpoint?
Alternatively, perhaps a very low view of ordination could similarly lead to the view that the faith of an individual minister is subordinate to their usefulness in facilitating public worship, and in carrying out their other (especially the more mundane) roles. If the laity are to claim greater ownership of their personal spiritual development, as many commentators would like them to do, to what extent is their clergy's theistic conformity relevant to this development?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
No, the Protestant Church of the Netherlands are our cousins, theologically speaking. But I doubt Gretta Vosper will remain in her post, it is the Ministry of Word & Sacrament; Gretta Vosper has problems with anything like a correct interpretation of the former, and clearly doesn't believe the latter. She will clearly fail the re-examination questions set for her.
Our disciplinary process is essentially Presbyterian, but the interpretation is pretty Congregationalist as it was the only way to make a United Church work.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I reckon she's saying what a lot of others are thinking.
Maybe so, but possibly not a lot of practising clergy.
I'd have thought that belief in God was fairly high up the list of criteria in her profession.
I agree with Mr. Cheesy: if she had a back-bone, she'd resign.
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
The Protestant Church of the Netherlands are our cousins, theologically speaking. But I doubt Gretta Vosper will remain in her post.
Why do you think the Protestant Church of the Netherlands might have accepted the ministry of an atheist minister whereas the United Church of Canada cannot? Might it be, as I suggested, more a matter of the personalities and contexts involved rather than of the theological positions held?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
I am somewhat confused that her congregation, as a whole, appears to support her (at least on the website).
Per Lyda*Rose, driving off roughly two thirds of your congregation is pretty much guaranteed to leave you with a remnant who rate you highly.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
I watched the interview this morning and have a few thoughts to engage with Vosper's theology. One good thing about people who are on the margins of theological thinking is that it makes people clarify and work through what they believe.
Vosper, like John Shelby Spong, like others, reject the theistic model of deity. The model they reject is that of a God who is a big being "out there" in heaven, who sits on his throne, listens to prayers, and randomly intervenes in creation, to punish, reward, and admonish human beings. We have to admit that much of Scripture and much of classical theology is presented this way. I agree with Vosper in part, when she says many clergy agree with her on this point. If God literally, is this giant father figure, who is angry, white haired, and all powerful, then it is believable that most clergy trained in mainline, liberal seminaries would reject this caricature. I think most would reject a crude understanding of divine intervention or activity that sees God as a cosmic bellhop or judge who only intervenes when his believers belt prayers upwards or when sinners do something stupid. But I disagree with Vosper and Spong when they assert that this is the only model of divine activity we have, and that our only alternative is humanism, which is Vospers' position, that the only good comes when only humans do the work.
A better model of theism I believe is that God's activity respects the space and free will of God's creatures. This is similar to a form of Process theology, but I disagree with Process theologians who may assert that God CANNOT intervene with free will, I believe God respects free will. God's will directs human will, in the same way that a conductor conducts her orchestra. God does not impose or stomp creation either through the dazzling spectacle of magic, or through the iron hammer of divine wrath. Rather God tenderly and lovingly sings a song of love, justice, and care that finds a response from creation, and through this dialogue, meaningful and just change can occur.
A concrete example of this is prayer. Prayer to me is not about sending up requests to a remote deity and asking him to suspend the laws of nature for our benefit. God creates prayer within us, so that we may desire the good of the other, that we may be freed from our self-anxieties and our self-pity as if our wants and needs are the centre of the universe. In crafting this desire, God also spawns our response to this desire, in meaningful and just action. There is no separation between prayer and praxis in this model, we pray for the poor, we feed the poor. This divine activity on the other hand doesn't stomp on human free will, God does not control us like a puppeteer controls a puppet. Rather, we discover through God working within us, that our wills, our desires for the good of ourselves, the good of the other, the good of creation, are aligned with the divine will.
To me, that is a more powerful theology of prayer and divine activity that the model that Vosper criticizes, and her alternative which negates the role of God altogether.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
This story seems to suggest that she's not only contesting the charges, but challenging the legitimacy of any process to review her fitness:
quote:
"Every pastoral relationship in the United Church of Canada will be affected by this ruling," Vosper said. "Now a court of the church can intervene in that relationship -- and terminate it."
"Now"? It's been a couple of years since I took the class, but I'm pretty sure that's how presbyterian polity has always worked (even when admixed with congregational). The minister of the local United church of my childhood certainly had his pastoral relationship "terminated," albeit under very different circumstances.
[ 02. April 2016, 22:48: Message edited by: Knopwood ]
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
The Protestant Church of the Netherlands are our cousins, theologically speaking. But I doubt Gretta Vosper will remain in her post.
Why do you think the Protestant Church of the Netherlands might have accepted the ministry of an atheist minister whereas the United Church of Canada cannot? Might it be, as I suggested, more a matter of the personalities and contexts involved rather than of the theological positions held?
I am very sorry that they did, but the United Church of Canada is not yet at the point where the "historic and public role" of clergy is more important than what they believe. The UCCan places a very high value on the Word part of Word & Sacrament. She has clearly violated her ordination vows and is no longer in "Essential Agreement" with the Basis of Union. Essential means substantial.
The UCCan is also a Methodist Church, and I dare say she would not be accepted in the Kirk, the United Reformed Church or the Methodist Church of Great Britain, our parents across the pond.
Nobody wants to do this, because nobody wants a drawn out spectacle that does only ill to the UCCan. We would all rather be preaching the Word of God and worshiping together happily. Rev. Vosper has finally reached the end of the very, very long rope we have given her.
Have you ever been to one of the Committees? It's all very procedural, extremely dry, and people's emotions are very much on edge. It is not something I would wish on anybody.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
...
From her own congregation's website. ...
I suppose I have to admit that instinctively, I'm completely out of sympathy with her. I can't see what the point is either of a person being a minister of religion if they don't believe anything, or any church being expected not to sack them.
SPK, I suppose I've got four questions to be going on with:-
First, although it is written in the third person, would the Revd Gretta Vosper have written the press release headed "UNITED CHURCH REFUSES TO HEAR APPEAL OF REVEREND VOSPER - MARCH 31, 2016" (Caps in original)? Or would the church elders have written it?
Second, it refers to a book she has written entitled "“With or Without God: Why the way we live is more important than what we believe”.
Does she, without any faith, live a life remarkable and noteworthy for its personal quality? Does her life outshine the lives lived by those poor unfortunates in other UCC congregations who are blighted by still believing in God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit?
Third, how congregational is the UCC? Is each congregation solely responsible for raising and paying ministers' salaries?
Fourth, has she always been quite open about her lack of belief or did she apostasise after she was ordained.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
1) The Church Council would have written it, I don't know how much of a cult of personality she has going there.
2) I have no idea about her personal life, but from what I understand her features and flaws are about the same as any other United Church clergyperson. With perhaps too much pride and egotism.
3) The UCCan is Presbyterian in polity with Methodist and Congregationalist influences. The question of salary is neither here nor there (the national church sets a minimum pay scale, congregations have to pay their minister, essentially same as the Kirk does). The United Church is organized under the United Church of Canada Acts, which are corresponding Acts of Parliament and of each provincial legislature. Conference has full legal authority under those Act, which incorporate the Basis of Union, to examine and dismiss her. The fact that the power is rarely used is neither here nor there.
4) She's been making waves for the last 10 years. That's when things got really bad, but that is probably when she reached her present position on matters of faith. In order to be ordained she had to openly state to the Conference Ordination Committee that she was in essential agreement with the Article of Faith of the Basis of Union. Either she was not entirely truthful on that occasion or she changed her mind later. Either way it doesn't make a substantial difference to her case.
[ 02. April 2016, 23:25: Message edited by: Sober Preacher's Kid ]
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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St Deird
Shipmate
# 7631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
I am somewhat confused that her congregation, as a whole, appears to support her (at least on the website).
Per Lyda*Rose, driving off roughly two thirds of your congregation is pretty much guaranteed to leave you with a remnant who rate you highly.
There is a potential argument to be made that, as long as she is faithfully leading the congregation in Christian practice, her own personal beliefs are not relevant. However, the linked article says that she stopped her church from using the Lord's Prayer anymore - in which case, she's NOT leading the congregation in Christian practice, and really doesn't have a leg to stand on.
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They're not hobbies; they're a robust post-apocalyptic skill-set.
Posts: 319 | From: the other side of nowhere | Registered: Jun 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
That's not helpful. Why would mousethief be expected to know something about a different denomination in a different country? The same charge could be levelled against you, if you were unaware of the dynamics of the LCMS
Just as a point of fact, but I'm pretty sure the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod has churces in Canada as well.
I'm aware of the LCC churches (Lutheran Church--Canada) and we have a close relationship, but I'm not sure it's in any way so close that we could claim any congregation as "LCMS." If there is one (and I know there are anomalous situations in a scant handful of places around the world), it's likely to be only one.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Of course she ought to resign. It's equivalent to me setting myself up as a leader in charge of an atheist organization when one of the job requirements is personal atheism, and I know it. For me to say "But I'm keeping my Christianity to myself, and I can do all the things you want just as well as if I truly agreed with you"--well, that may be true or it may not be, but it's not the point. I am in breach of an employment requirement I knew about perfectly well when I first took the job.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I suppose it depends on what you think the role of ordained clergy in the UCC is. If it's to counsel parishioners, preach on the Bible, and perform the sacraments (if they have sacraments), are those things that an atheist cannot do? Why?
MT, there are UCCan churches a few hours drive from where you live. Do I really have to spell this out for you?
Yes. There are probably people from Myanmar within a few hours drive from me, but that doesn't make me knowledgeable about their beliefs and practices either. Is this a conversation? We could forgo all back-and-forth, and every time somebody says they don't know something we can say "Fucking google it you asshole." Then we wouldn't have to engage with each other at all. But it wouldn't be much of a discussion site. Would it.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
]I'm aware of the LCC churches (Lutheran Church--Canada) and we have a close relationship, but I'm not sure it's in any way so close that we could claim any congregation as "LCMS."
I've been waiting for this tangent!
There are both LCC and LCMS churches in Canada: the difference is purely organizational as they enjoy full altar and pulpit fellowship. The Canadian districts of the LCMS became autonomous in the 80s, but that didn't affect the non-geographical districts (English and SELC) who I gather guard their distinctive identities rather jealously. Those two districts continue to operate on a cross-border basis.
(Oddly, there is also one ELCA church in Canada, but that really is a one-off: Nativity Slovak is in Windsor, Ontario, which effectively forms a single metropolitan area with Detroit. The Slovak Zion Synod of which it is a part is the ELCA's equivalent to SELC, except that it seems to have maintained the linguistic heritage more).
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I've been skimming online for more MOTR info. (No offense. I just wanted to include other perspectives.)
HuffPost Canada has a basic article, with lots of off-site links.
That brought me to Greta's own site. "Atheist what?" has info on various influences, and how she feels she's not far from what she was taught in theological college. Another article gets into the complexities of the term "atheist". Her footnote there sounds like she could easily be classified as an agnostic.
I can understand the argument that she should leave. I can also understand that she should stay if her congregation still wants her.
I'm not familiar with how denominations, as opposed to independent churches, handle ministers' salaries. Does the money come from the congregation, the denomination, or both? Thx.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
The United Church of Canada is not yet at the point where the "historic and public role" of clergy is more important than what they believe. The UCCan places a very high value on the Word part of Word & Sacrament. [...]
The UCCan is also a Methodist Church, and I dare say she would not be accepted in the Kirk, the United Reformed Church or the Methodist Church of Great Britain, our parents across the pond.
I've spent most of my worshipping life in the British Methodist Church, and it's a church in which the avoidance of conflict is generally a part of the culture. Someone with an agenda like this lady's would have become very frustrated there long before this point!
Also, because Methodist ministers tend to be moved around every 5-10 years they can't really rely on settling into a radically liberal congregation that will 'protect' them from official censure until they retire, even though many Methodists are relatively tolerant.
Interestingly, I've been hearing that the elderly, including elderly clergy, may be less likely to hold orthodox Christian beliefs as they age. Younger clergy in the mainstream churches are more likely to be evangelical than their older counterparts, and doubting clergy who cross the public radar here tend to be old men. I suppose they have less to lose than someone earlier in their career.
I understand, though, that mainstream theological training can induce a crisis of faith in some young ordinands. Some of them recover spiritually, but there may be others who hold on simply because to do otherwise would be too professionally and socially costly. Even those who begin the job with a strong faith can end up in a different place - but the burden of looking after their families means that leaving the ministry is highly problematic for them.
No, I wouldn't choose to be under the ministry of an atheist minister, but all these potential problems do make me wonder if it's wise to place a great deal of emphasis on the theological orthodoxy of the clergy. Public professions of faith are very grand, but the clergy are just as susceptible to shift their theological ground as anyone else. Indeed perhaps more so, since they have the training to play with and redefine theological concepts in a way that the average person in the pew wouldn't be able to do. They can use that knowledge to justify their continued employment in the church, whereas the untutored layman might feel he no longer belongs in church when the liturgy he has to recite there no longer means to him what he'd always been taught it meant....
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Ah! Okay, if the SELC and English districts are involved, it makes sense. They're quirky (well, the whole LCMS is, but that's another story).
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I suppose it depends on what you think the role of ordained clergy in the UCC is. If it's to counsel parishioners, preach on the Bible, and perform the sacraments (if they have sacraments), are those things that an atheist cannot do? Why?
MT, there are UCCan churches a few hours drive from where you live. Do I really have to spell this out for you?
Yes. There are probably people from Myanmar within a few hours drive from me, but that doesn't make me knowledgeable about their beliefs and practices either. Is this a conversation? We could forgo all back-and-forth, and every time somebody says they don't know something we can say "Fucking google it you asshole." Then we wouldn't have to engage with each other at all. But it wouldn't be much of a discussion site. Would it.
'If they have sacraments', mousethief, you are not that ignorant, and you have been on the Ship too long not to know most of the major churches in Canada, Australia, NZ and the UK, as they get brought up in discussion a fair bit.
Really, you just asked whether a Presbyterian or Methodist church has sacraments. How do you think that sounds?
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
SPK--
Sounds to me like mt simply wasn't sure whether the denomination in question had something that the denomination considered sacraments, let alone what an outsider (mt) from a very liturgical church might consider sacraments.
And I agree with Leaf's response to you, up thread: why in the world would you expect him to have a knowledge of a type of church that's hours away, in another country? I know I can't keep track of all the denominations, churches, beliefs, and ideas (atheism, agnosticism, humanism, included, not to leave anyone out!) on the Ship, or who associates which which.
As to not being memorialist: If I'd had to make a guess, I would've thought that might be an option. I don't remember ever seeing mention one way or the other, though. Plus, whether the UC is memorialist or not, I wouldn't necessarily assume that a minister's faith is *necessary* to the workings of the Communion/Eucharist, which you seem to be saying, as I might assume about a priest's faith.
(Hope I got at least the basics of that across. Am under the weather.)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Really, you just asked whether a Presbyterian or Methodist church has sacraments. How do you think that sounds?
No I didn't. I asked whether the UCC has sacraments. I think that sounds like I didn't know if the UCC had sacraments. Not everybody is as intimately familiar with the UCC as you are.
And, frankly, off the top of my head I couldn't tell you if any particular Presbyterian body has sacraments, or ordinances. Again, I am not intimately familiar with the workings of that particular denominational family.
As I said, is it okay to express ignorance and ask here, or should we all just go read Wikipedia and close the ship down forever, since learning from and teaching each other here is such a terrible waste of time?
[ 03. April 2016, 04:35: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Lynnk
Apprentice
# 16132
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Posted
How can an atheist person be a minister in a christian church?How can a congregation accept an atheist as a teacher and leader? I have just read 48 posts discussing this.Why hasn't the congregation left if the pastor won't?My limited experience with atheists is that they are not just non believers, but quite antagonistic toward Christians.Surely time in church learning about and worshiping God is to precious to waste it on a minister who doesn't even believe in God.
Posts: 22 | From: Tasmania | Registered: Jan 2011
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
This isn't the first case. Infamously, twenty-two years ago Anthony Freeman had his Church of England licence revoked and was sacked after writing God in Us: The Case for Christian Humanism.
A couple of years ago, following survey results that suggested 2% of Anglican priests do not believe, (pdf survey results full of tables) led to this Church Society article by Lee Gatiss which concluded:
quote:
We must not be afraid to set boundaries of belief and practice. It is loving and kind to our congregations, which need good shepherds who teach the word of truth not time-servers looking for a cosy living – or even wolves. Care is needed when doing that of course. We mustn’t be too restrictive. But atheist priests is several steps too far. Everyone can see that.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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