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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Sin and salvation
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Host: I do not recall this topic appearing recently, but if I am mistaken, would you please let me know. Thank you.
The concepts of sin and salvation crop up regularly in discussions; my opinions on this are quite simple really: there is no such thing as 'sin' or any kind of 'salvation; involving any kind of god. The word 'sin'is defined as, quote:
An immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law.
where the 'divine' is taken for granted. I have never 'sinned' because for me there is no divine! I have of course,like all human beings whose behaviours range from the saintly* to the evil* and all come under the heading of normal, made a million mistakes. All human behaviours could be positioned on a bell curve I think. Fortunately, all my mistakes have not resulted in my being imprisoned, losing good friends, etc. The majority of people on that bell curve have what is called a conscience. I have taken responsibility for my mistakes. I do not want any salvation, a word which in itself implies a religious meaning.
I would be most interested to hear people's views on definitions and implications of the words sin and salvation.
* I use these words in general terms!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
SusanDoris: I would be most interested to hear people's views on definitions and implications of the words sin and salvation.
I'm not sure why you would want our views on this, if you don't believe in these concepts. Is it just so that you can't say to us "you don't have scientific proof for what you believe"? We already know that; I don't see how we can have a discussion there. Or is it OK if we have a discussion about sin and salvation between ourselves?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
My take, the answers-on-a-postcard version: "Sin" means there's something wrong with us morally/ethically. "Salvation" is God fixing that.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Le roc
I ask the question because I really am interested in the views of SofF members. I always learn from this site even if I do not change my views.
mousethief
Thank you. One of the advantages of the word 'sin' is that it is one, strong syllable! All other words lack its impact. Can you elaborate on how God fixes things, I wonder?
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
mousethief
Thank you. One of the advantages of the word 'sin' is that it is one, strong syllable! All other words lack its impact. Can you elaborate on how God fixes things, I wonder?
By changing the human heart so we're not such self-serving bastards. Ideally.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Anyuta
Shipmate
# 14692
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Posted
As I see it, sin is a state of being, rather than a specific action (or actions). actions shape our being, so yes, they matter, and certain actions are highly likely to cause our state of being to shift more to sin (a state of being away from the ideal), and they also often are caused by our state of being, so we call those actions "sins", but in fact I don't believe it's about individual actions.
Salvation is the ability to reunite with God. and it's done. we've all been "saved". but it's more complicated than that. we are all still in the process of being "saved" (our actions/state of being is constantly shifting). in the end, it is our state of being (shaped over a lifetime by actions and beliefs and other influences) which determines how we perceive Gods love. (contrary to most christian teaching, I happen to believe that if there is any sort of "time" after death, then we also continue to be shaped during that time. death does not mark the end our our salvation.. we will continue to be in the process even then. How? I don't know. I guess I'll find out eventually.
"the kingdom of God is within us".
Posts: 764 | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2009
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
For extremely brief descriptions, I'd line up behind mousethief.
I do think it's going to be hard to have a discussion about "sin" and "salvation" independent of any particular religious or theological worldview, however, as they're kind of intrinsically intertwined and don't really have any meaning outside of that framework (although there's obviously a whole lot of room for discussions of different frameworks and the nuances within and between those).
If you're hoping to isolate them for examination, though, I think your opening premise has somewhat guillotined discussion ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Sin harms in one of two ways - either things that are things God hates, or things that hurt others. However due to the Incarnation, one will affect the other, eg harming others is wrong because they are a person made in the image of God, as well as any immediate harm to that person. Salvation is a way for God to absolve us of our sins, and to dwell within us via the gift of the Holy Spirit.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
mousethief
Thank you. One of the advantages of the word 'sin' is that it is one, strong syllable! All other words lack its impact. Can you elaborate on how God fixes things, I wonder?
By changing the human heart so we're not such self-serving bastards. Ideally.
I certainly agree that, ideally, we could all do with being less selfish! I think I am quite a cheerful friendly sort of person, so I hope that in my remaining years I will avoid being any kind of a bastard! ]
quote:
Originally posted by Anyuta:
As I see it, sin is a state of being, rather than a specific action (or actions). actions shape our being, so yes, they matter, and certain actions are highly likely to cause our state of being to shift more to sin (a state of being away from the ideal), and they also often are caused by our state of being, so we call those actions "sins", but in fact I don't believe it's about individual actions.
Salvation is the ability to reunite with God. and it's done. we've all been "saved". but it's more complicated than that. we are all still in the process of being "saved" (our actions/state of being is constantly shifting). in the end, it is our state of being (shaped over a lifetime by actions and beliefs and other influences) which determines how we perceive Gods love. (contrary to most christian teaching, I happen to believe that if there is any sort of "time" after death, then we also continue to be shaped during that time. death does not mark the end our our salvation.. we will continue to be in the process even then. How? I don't know. I guess I'll find out eventually.
"the kingdom of God is within us".
That is a really lovely post. Thank you. I ascribe all that we think and do to our evolved humanity not God, but very much like the feelings and sentiments you have expressed.
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
For extremely brief descriptions, I'd line up behind mousethief.
I do think it's going to be hard to have a discussion about "sin" and "salvation" independent of any particular religious or theological worldview, however, as they're kind of intrinsically intertwined and don't really have any meaning outside of that framework (although there's obviously a whole lot of room for discussions of different frameworks and the nuances within and between those).
If you're hoping to isolate them for examination, though, I think your opening premise has somewhat guillotined discussion
You are probably right - and this will be a short thread! As far as I know, the Christian religions are the only ones to have the sin plus salvation theme, although I expect confession of sins in the context of a religious belief is a general human way of endeavouring to be a better person.
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Sin harms in one of two ways - either things that are things God hates, or things that hurt others. However due to the Incarnation, one will affect the other, eg harming others is wrong because they are a person made in the image of God, as well as any immediate harm to that person. Salvation is a way for God to absolve us of our sins, and to dwell within us via the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Thank you. Is there a way you think you can tell if you have been absolved of your sins by God?
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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Anyuta
Shipmate
# 14692
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Posted
quote:
That is a really lovely post. Thank you. I ascribe all that we think and do to our evolved humanity not God, but very much like the feelings and sentiments you have expressed.
Well, thanks for saying so. The thing is, I ascribe our evolved humanity to God... but in the end, it doesn't really matter. I certainly don't think that belief is what "saves" us, although since belief can shape actions and hearts, it's not irrelevant either.:-)
Posts: 764 | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2009
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
SD - there's obviously no objective way to tell, but God promises absolution and forgiveness if we confess and repent of our sins. I do think that God can absolve and forgive sins we can't remember!
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Let me make an attempt also. (Most of these things I've said before on the Ship).
For starters, I don't always find 'sin' a very useful concept. It is very one-dimensional; of all the — sometimes difficult — decisions I need to make in my life, only a very small portion involves a choice between good and evil. So, 'sin' isn't very helpful here.
But okay, about good and evil for a moment. For starters (this is the second time I've started ), I don't believe in Evil. I believe that we can do evil things, but I don't believe in 'evil' as a concept. Once again, not very helpful.
But why can we do good and evil things? As I said in the other thread, this is related to the structure of our Universe. We need things, we need to eat every day, we need other things too. And the laws of the universe dictate that some of these things are scarce. It is very hard not to be egoistic under these circumstances.
Yet, this is what I believe God asks us to do. To put others before ourselves. In a sense this requires us to transcend the limits set upon us by evolution. Sure, it may be an evolutionary advantage for groups of humans to work together, but that's very limited. Most of the time, it only applies to the own tribe, and still in a rather selfish way. I don't think evolution has wired us to act unselfishly towards the whole human race.
So, what does 'salvation' mean in this context? To me, 'salvation' doesn't mean "my sins are forgiven; I'll go to Heaven". Rather, being set free from my egoism can be a benefit in itself. Difficult to achieve sure, impossible perhaps, but it is this that the Holy Spirit wants to help us with.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
Susan, in your OP you spoke of 'mistakes'. Nowadays that word has come to cover two different kinds of situation. If someone puts on a shirt wrong-side-out, that is a mistake pure and simple.
If someone takes out their bad mood on someone else, I wouldn't call that a mistake, since the person almost certainly knows better.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Sin=inevitable abuse of privilege, freedom, power. Always. If it isn't, it isn't sin.
Salvation=we get to learn from that. No matter what. I.e. Jesus does what He says on the tin.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Is there a way you think you can tell if you have been absolved of your sins by God?
Yes. There are nail prints in his palms.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Morgan
Shipmate
# 15372
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Posted
To me sin is both trespass and separation. We trespass on and violate the good - God's plan for peace, justice, kindness, decency, integrity, love and respect for others etc. As a consequence we initiate separation from God and from others.
We know we are absolved when we repent because that is God's promise. Forgiveness is always God's plan and God's response when we genuinely repent and seek forgiveness.
Salvation is as much about salving as saving. Salvation is ongoing as we are healed and made whole in our relationship with God and our relationships with others. It is both a present process and a future promise of further fulfilment.
Posts: 111 | From: Canberra | Registered: Dec 2009
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Hi Susan --
These days, I tend to think in terms of mistakes, healing, growth, and wholeness. (Unless, of course, I'm very angry! ![[Biased]](wink.gif) )
I think everyone messes up, in various ways and to varying degrees, and with various levels of responsibility. CS Lewis used this illustration (paraphrased):
Factory A is old and crumbling. Its workings are 100 years out of date, it can't get the proper supplies, and it can fall apart at any moment. It manages to occasionally put out some shoddy goods. Considering what it has to work with, though, it's doing an amazing job.
Factory B is new and shiny, state of the art. People drive by it in awe. It puts out truckloads of goods, every day. But...the goods aren't as nice as they first appear, and they don't last. Considering what it has to work with, it should be doing much better.
That story helps me get some perspective. I also heard a sermon, years ago, wherein the RC priest said that for a person to sin, three things have to be true: they have to know the thing is wrong; they have to want to do something wrong; and they have to have another option.
IMHO, someone might be sinned against, but the person who did it might not be guilty of sin, based on the criteria I mentioned.
ISTM that, whatever we believe, we need to focus on treating people well, not treating people badly, learning, growing, loving, and all that. If God exists, etc., I think She helps us with that. My hope and belief (in the sense of a chosen place to stand) is that She won't rest until everyone and everything is safe, and well, and Home.
{Copies of this universalist infomercial are available for $5.95 in the church hall, during coffee hour, along with t-shirts, mugs, and mouse pads. Patent pending. }
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
I relate sin and salvation to what I read in the beginning of Genesis. Our animal nature (the serpent) tells us that knowing what's good, what's bad and how to be happy (the tree of knowledge of good and evil) is something we are capable of doing for ourselves, without reference to moral laws that we are taught (God's rules about not eating or touching the tree). We sin when we believe that kind of thinking and incorporate it into our decisions and actions (eating the fruit of the forbidden tree), which leads us to put our self interest above that of our neighbor.
Salvation is God leading us away from believing and acting that way, and healing us from the damage we do to ourselves when we do. God's goal is to get us to accept a heart of flesh to replace the heart of stone that we acquire from heeding the serpent. To the extent that we do accept God's gift of a replacement heart, we open ourselves up to receiving the joy and happiness that God shares with us when we commit ourselves to service to our neighbor for its own sake. To the extent that we don't accept God's gift, we condemn ourselves to living a life dedicated only to ourselves.
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
Posts: 1565 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2008
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Many thanks for new posts. Back later to respond!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Aye, that points toward the simplicity of Christ.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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AndyHB
Apprentice
# 18580
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I would be most interested to hear people's views on definitions and implications of the words sin and salvation.
I think that the term 'sin' is very useful because its very spelling highlights the nature of the issue - " 'I' becoming central." Humanity is a social species so whenever a person puts themselves before or above the rest of society, the relationships that make up that social grouping are damaged. That damage may be huge or it may be very limited, but it is still damage.
Unfortunately, we don't always know what damage - long- or short-term - such actions do to our relationships.
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TWAM is always on the look-out for unwanted tools. Check-out website - www.twam.uk - for 'tools wanted' lists and collector contact details.
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
This is one of my favorite topics. I'll try to keep it short.
Sin - the Greeks called it "hamartia" which means "missing the mark". What does this mean? Not just having good intentions and unintended consequences. That's not sin.
"Missing the mark" means to take aim at something with an intent to harm, but not hit your intended target.
I see the mechanics of this operating at the sub-conscious level. When you are aiming harmful thoughts and actions at others, you are unintentionally wounding yourself.
This is why the wages of sin is death - you can't continue to harm yourself over and over in thought word and deed and expect to survive the experience.
Salvation. The root of the word is the Greek word for "to heal" - soter. The natural remedy for a self-inflicted wound is to seek the help of a healer.
This is what I feel is Christ's role as the Great Physician - to heal the world of its self inflicted wounds.
LAFF
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anyuta:
I ascribe our evolved humanity to God... but in the end, it doesn't really matter. I certainly don't think that belief is what "saves" us, although since belief can shape actions and hearts, it's not irrelevant either.:-)
May I ask - do you have a personal idea or definition of 'what saves us' means, or is it just a vague sort of thought?
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:?
SD - there's obviously no objective way to tell, but God promises absolution and forgiveness if we confess and repent of our sins. I do think that God can absolve and forgive sins we can't remember!
Thank you. The word sin has such powerful overtones, though, that I think it is unlikely you would forget one! quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Let me make an attempt also. (Most of these things I've said before on the Ship).
For starters, I don't always find 'sin' a very useful concept. It is very one-dimensional; of all the — sometimes difficult — decisions I need to make in my life, only a very small portion involves a choice between good and evil. So, 'sin' isn't very helpful here.
Agreed. Perhaps what we need most is a single syllable, powerful word with no religious overtones to take the place of the word sin.
quote:
But okay, about good and evil for a moment. For starters (this is the second time I've started ), I don't believe in Evil. I believe that we can do evil things, but I don't believe in 'evil' as a concept. Once again, not very helpful.
Again, agreed, but I think the word evil is increasingly losing its association with religious ideas.
quote:
But why can we do good and evil things?
That is an easy one to answer. We have evolved into the species of human animal we are and have, very successfully, survived, together with and perhaps also in spite of the huge variation of behaviours we manifest.
quote:
Yet, this is what I believe God asks us to do. To put others before ourselves.
Do you think you would completely fail to do this if you did not believe in God? Do you think our species would have survived as successfully as it has done if altruistic behaviour had not been an important part of our evolution? quote:
So, what does 'salvation' mean in this context? To me, 'salvation' doesn't mean "my sins are forgiven; I'll go to Heaven". Rather, being set free from my egoism can be a benefit in itself. Difficult to achieve sure, impossible perhaps, but it is this that the Holy Spirit wants to help us with.
Thank you for your post.
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Susan, in your OP you spoke of 'mistakes'. Nowadays that word has come to cover two different kinds of situation. If someone puts on a shirt wrong-side-out, that is a mistake pure and simple.
If someone takes out their bad mood on someone else, I wouldn't call that a mistake, since the person almost certainly knows better.
Moo
Thank you. Ah, yes, very true! We are, frustratingly, stuck with the words we have!
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Sin=inevitable abuse of privilege, freedom, power. Always. If it isn't, it isn't sin.
Salvation=we get to learn from that. No matter what. I.e. Jesus does what He says on the tin.
I certainly agree we learn from our mistakes - or if we do not then we are fools - and have done so for millions of years without any Jesus to refer to!
To be continued...
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
I think the definition of sin in the OP is severely limited. You don't have to believe in God to notice that the human race is broken at a profound level. We learned to make tools, and we use them as weapons. We learned language, and we use it to lie. We learned to trade, and we use it to enrich ourselves and impoverish others.
If you don't believe in the Christian idea of salvation (in which we have the archetypal myth of Christ battering down the doors of Hell with his Cross, in order to release those imprisoned in the darkness of their sin) you can at least believe in the message given by the prophets and the example given by the saints, that there is nothing ultimately necessary about sin. It does not have to have the last word. There is a better way, and they point to it.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
cliffdweller and morgan
Thank you for your posts, which I have read several times, and apologise for not having thought of any response as yet.
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Hi Susan --
These days, I tend to think in terms of mistakes, healing, growth, and wholeness. (Unless, of course, I'm very angry! )
I think everyone messes up, in various ways and to varying degrees, and with various levels of responsibility.
<snip>
IMHO, someone might be sinned against, but the person who did it might not be guilty of sin, based on the criteria I mentioned.
ISTM that, whatever we believe, we need to focus on treating people well, not treating people badly, learning, growing, loving, and all that. If God exists, etc., I think She helps us with that. My hope and belief (in the sense of a chosen place to stand) is that She won't rest until everyone and everything is safe, and well, and Home.
Hmmmmm, I agree with most of that, but somewhat sceptical about the idea of a possibly happy-for-ever ‘home’!
quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
To the extent that we don't accept God's gift, we condemn ourselves to living a life dedicated only to ourselves.
Thank you. How do you account for the atheists who, lacking belief in any gods, still behave in a way that is as unselfish and good as they can make it because it is morally the right thing to do, with no reference to any god?
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
How do you account for the atheists who, lacking belief in any gods, still behave in a way that is as unselfish and good as they can make it because it is morally the right thing to do, with no reference to any god?
Because having a concept of what it is to "behave in a way that is as unselfish and good as they can make it because it is morally the right thing to do" is similar to having a concept of God. It carries a similar concept of "sin" in the understanding that some things are morally the wrong thing to do. It is something that is believed in.
By contrast, someone who has no belief that any particular way of acting is "better" than any other is destined for a challenging, and probably unhappy, life.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
This:
quote:
Originally posted by Anyuta:
As I see it, sin is a state of being, rather than a specific action (or actions). actions shape our being, so yes, they matter, and certain actions are highly likely to cause our state of being to shift more to sin (a state of being away from the ideal), and they also often are caused by our state of being, so we call those actions "sins", but in fact I don't believe it's about individual actions.
and this:
quote:
Originally posted by Morgan:
Salvation is as much about salving as saving. Salvation is ongoing as we are healed and made whole in our relationship with God and our relationships with others. It is both a present process and a future promise of further fulfilment.
pretty much sum up where I am. To give it a great deal of shorthand, I tend to see "sin" as spiritual disease or brokenness, while I tend to see salvation as healing or wholeness.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Morgan:
Salvation is as much about salving as saving. Salvation is ongoing as we are healed and made whole in our relationship with God and our relationships with others. It is both a present process and a future promise of further fulfilment.
This is very much in keeping with the Orthodox view as I understand it. God as the Great Healer.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
How do you account for the atheists who, lacking belief in any gods, still behave in a way that is as unselfish and good as they can make it because it is morally the right thing to do, with no reference to any god?
Because they, too, are children of God, whether they know it or not. And God is not stingy with his kids.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
So He magics them good?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by beatmenace:
Here is another take on it from Tom Wright.
http://hellochristian.com/2262-what-it-actually-means-to-be-saved-according-to-nt-wright
Thank you for the link.I do not have much time for what Paul said - I prefer today's scientists' views!
There is no question that at the end of my life I shall be dead!! but will be living every minute until then to the best of my ability.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by AndyHB:
Whilst I'm not sure that I fully agree with the premise behind this article, it makes some interesting points.
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160401-how-did-evil-evolve-and-why-did-it-persist
Thank you - a most interesting, scientific article. I have listened right the way through.
[UBB fixed. - Gwai]
[ 05. April 2016, 14:10: Message edited by: Gwai ]
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
This is one of my favorite topics. I'll try to keep it short.
Sin - the Greeks called it "hamartia" which means "missing the mark". What does this mean? Not just having good intentions and unintended consequences. That's not sin.
"Missing the mark" means to take aim at something with an intent to harm, but not hit your intended target.
Thank you. There are, however, many human behaviours which religions consider to be sin, but which the people involved consider to be loving and good. This thread is about sin and salvation in general though, and that would be too specific a point, so please ignore it!
quote:
I see the mechanics of this operating at the sub-conscious level. When you are aiming harmful thoughts and actions at others, you are unintentionally wounding yourself.
Ah, so true – such a pity more people do not realise this. quote:
Salvation. The root of the word is the Greek word for "to heal" - soter. The natural remedy for a self-inflicted wound is to seek the help of a healer.
This is what I feel is Christ's role as the Great Physician - to heal the world of its self inflicted wounds.
It will be us humans though, with the acquired knowledge and skills who will be muddling through and, mostly, doing as well as can be expected, won’t it?!
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I think the definition of sin in the OP is severely limited. You don't have to believe in God to notice that the human race is broken at a profound level. We learned to make tools, and we use them as weapons. We learned language, and we use it to lie. We learned to trade, and we use it to enrich ourselves and impoverish others.
If you don't believe in the Christian idea of salvation (in which we have the archetypal myth of Christ battering down the doors of Hell with his Cross, in order to release those imprisoned in the darkness of their sin) you can at least believe in the message given by the prophets and the example given by the saints, that there is nothing ultimately necessary about sin. It does not have to have the last word. There is a better way, and they point to it.
Thank you, but that is too pessimistic a way of thinking for me. Of course, it is always a case of two steps forward and varying sizes of steps back, but the overall trend shows progress.
****
I hope I haven't missed out points to which I should have responded ... ...
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:
Originally posted by beatmenace:
Here is another take on it from Tom Wright.
http://hellochristian.com/2262-what-it-actually-means-to-be-saved-according-to-nt-wright
Thank you for the link.I do not have much time for what Paul said - I prefer today's scientists' views!
OK, but see, that's why many of us were reluctant to respond to your thread-- you asked for our pov, but then are dismissive when we give it. We get that you don't believe in God or the Bible, and are totally cool with that, but when you ask us a bunch of Christians what they believe about sin & salvation, you should expect to hear a few things about God and the Bible-- as you were warned on the very first page of this thread.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
Hello Miss SusanDoris!
Thank you for the polite response to my thoughts. I only have a response to this part:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
It will be us humans though, with the acquired knowledge and skills who will be muddling through and, mostly, doing as well as can be expected, won’t it?!
Well, the way I see it, that's a qualified no. But this is only because of my own personal experience with the necessity for divine intervention in the messes that I have made as part of my human experience.
Because I have memories of past lives, I'm kind of "beyond the pale" of ordinary thought on the matter of reincarnation. Can't be helped, I'm stuck with it.
I do have personal experience of having to confront one of my more heinous crimes, and the problem with heinous crimes is that their repercussions reverberate widely and deeply in time.
It becomes like a Gordian Knot, whose energetic consequences can't be untangled by human intentions in the present. Think "The Butterfly Effect" - that movie says a lot about the consequences of this kind of thing.
They can only be undone at the source, in the moment prior to commission.
And so in my own personal experience, it was Christ who came to my aid and only with His help was I able to undo this particular life and its consequences in the present.
Though technically it was me who rewrote the script, I could not have done so if He had not given me the pen, so to speak.
So that's just me, and I just wanted to share this, for what it's worth.
Cheers!
AFF
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
OK, but see, that's why many of us were reluctant to respond to your thread-- you asked for our pov, but then are dismissive when we give it.
I have tried to be extra careful with my words on this thread in order not to sound abrasive or unfriendly, because, as I said to Le Roc, I really am interested in, and learn from, the views and experiences of members of SofF. Yes, I remain a non-believer, but I hope my understanding of believers is much broader than it was before I joined.
I am also always grateful for the opportunity to read the intelligent, thoughtful Purgatory topics (and occasionally dipping in to the other areas) because my range of activities is very limited.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
So He magics them good?
No. It's just human nature. We can choose to do good or to do bad. We can't really choose to *be* bad by definition. Though we can get pretty close.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Aye. 'Choose'?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
SusanDoris: Perhaps what we need most is a single syllable, powerful word with no religious overtones to take the place of the word sin.
Hmm, 'cock-up' has two syllables.
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:
LeRoc: I don't believe in Evil. I believe that we can do evil things, but I don't believe in 'evil' as a concept. Once again, not very helpful.
Again, agreed, but I think the word evil is increasingly losing its association with religious ideas.
You're mixing things up here. I always find it difficult to discuss logical connections with you, but I'll give it a try.
What you seem to be saying on this thread is: "'Sin' is a religious concept. We need to strip the religious associations from it, and find a non-religious equivalent of this concept."
That's perfectly fine. In fact, I think that these non-religious concepts already exist. Maybe 'evil' is OK for you? This word already exists both in the religious and in the non-religious context. Or you're welcome to find another one.
I don't know if this is of interest to you, but what I was trying to say is that 'evil' as a concept isn't very helpful to me. I prefer to discuss evil things that we do rather than an abstract concept of 'evil'.
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:
LeRoc: But why can we do good and evil things?
That is an easy one to answer. We have evolved into the species of human animal we are and have, very successfully, survived, together with and perhaps also in spite of the huge variation of behaviours we manifest.
Once again, your reaction isn't really an answer to my question.
It depends a bit on your point of view, but many people say that animals don't do good or evil things. Consider for example a cheetah killing an antelope. Did it do an evil thing? My answer to this is no. It is just doing what its natural instincts ask it to do.
So, from a certain point of view, animals can't do good or evil things, but humans can. What explains this difference? This is the question I was trying to answer.
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:
LeRoc: Yet, this is what I believe God asks us to do. To put others before ourselves.
Do you think you would completely fail to do this if you did not believe in God?
No, I don't think that.
quote:
SusanDoris: Do you think our species would have survived as successfully as it has done if altruistic behaviour had not been an important part of our evolution?
I know what you're trying to say here, because you've often said this on the Ship. "Altruism is a product of evolution". I don't believe you.
It is true that when we were nomadic apes, we needed to work together sometimes. And it is true that some animals make sacrifices sometimes in order to give other animals a greater chance of survival. But this isn't what 'altruism' means. Altruism is broader than that.
The main limitation is that when animals do things for each other, it stays within the same genetic line. An ape may do something for his nephew, because it shares most of its genes, giving those a greater chance of survival. Dawkins' book is called The Selfish Gene for a reason.
You say that you believe in Science. If you want to assert here that evolution explains altruism, you'll have to prove it scientifically.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Sorry, LeRoc, someone posted a link to a BBC article synthesising research that shows animals demonstrating all of the Dark Tetrad of evil. (I posted the same article to the Fall thread.)
The rest of your argument stands though.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Curiosity killed ...: Sorry, LeRoc, someone posted a link to a BBC article synthesising research that shows animals demonstrating all of the Dark Tetrad of evil. (I posted the same article to the Fall thread.)
Thank you, I guess this a reaction to me saying "animals can't do evil things".
I've skimmed through that article a bit, and what it seems to do is make a comparison between certain kinds of animal and human behaviour, but it does that on a psychiatric level, not on a moral level.
Suppose, 20 million years ago or whatever, before self-conscious humans existed, there was a troupe of baboons, and one of them used random bouts of aggression to control the others.
Yes, this parallels certain psychological behaviour in humans. Perhaps even pathological behaviour. But is this baboon evil? Is his behaviour immoral? By which standards?
I guess you could say that this behaviour is immoral because it harms other baboons. But so does the cheetah killing an antelope. Is that immoral?
To which degree does it make sense to impose human morality on animal behaviour?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
SusanDoris: I have never 'sinned' because for me there is no divine!
I just remembered, there is a Cyanide & Happiness comic about this. It's really NSFW, but if you want to see it it's number 3561.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Your last question. It makes NO SENSE at all. On the HUMAN animal.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
SusanDoris: I prefer today's scientists' views!
You've been told this before, but Science doesn't have an answer for questions of the form "is X good or bad?" This isn't what Science is for. It isn't what Science sets out to do. Science posits hypotheses and conducts experiments to try to determine whether these hypotheses are true or false. That's very useful; we have discovered many things about the Universe this way and we will undoubtedly discover more. But you'll need something else to answer "is X good or bad?"
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
SusanDoris: I really am interested in, and learn from, the views and experiences of members of SofF.
I'm sorry, but that's not good enough. Many discussions are like this:
SusanDoris: Why do religious people do X?
Several other people: We do X because …
SusanDoris: That's not valid because it is not scientific.
Several other people: Why are we answering your questions if all you do is dismiss our answers as unscientific?
SusanDoris (cheerfully): But I am interested in your answers.
There is a point where saying that you're interested in our answers is no longer enough, and you'll need to show it.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
LeRoc--
What, specifically, do you want from her, then? How would you prefer your posted sample conversation to go?
Thx.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
LeRoc--
What, specifically, do you want from her, then? How would you prefer your posted sample conversation to go?
Thx.
Ah, thank you!! Having read through Le Roc’s posts and made some notes, I read this neatly focused post of yours.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Suppose that I as a Christian would have a discussion with Hindus that went like this.
LeRoc: Why do Hindus do X?
Several Hindus: We do X because …
LeRoc: That's not valid because your gods don't exist.
Do you think that a meaningful inter-religious dialogue has taken place here?
Wouldn't it be better if I answered something of the form "I don't believe in your gods of course, but I think that elements xyz in your answer are insightful because … / I believe that elements xyz are positive because … / I learned xyz from your answer".
To me, it would make sense to take the fact that Hindus believe in their gods as a hypothetical given for a while, to see what else I could learn from them, instead of only being interested in pushing my agenda "I want to assert that your gods don't exist".
I'd even say that this is a rather scientific approach.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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