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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: What is cheap grace?
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Evensong
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# 14696
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Posted
Dietrich Bonhoeffer writes about cheap grace in his book The Cost of Discipleship (quote here ) and I have heard it bandied about on the ship fairly often.
Granted I have not yet read the book, but from the quote and from instances used in conversation I do not understand the meaning.
Grace is by very definition free - a free gift. How can it then be either cheap or costly?
quote:
It is costly because it costs a man his life, and it is grace because it gives a man the only true life."
Sounds like he's saying you will receive the only true life as a gift, but only if you pay for it.
Makes no sense.
So is grace grace or not?
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Dietrich Bonhoeffer writes about cheap grace in his book The Cost of Discipleship (quote here ) and I have heard it bandied about on the ship fairly often.
Granted I have not yet read the book, but from the quote and from instances used in conversation I do not understand the meaning.
Grace is by very definition free - a free gift. How can it then be either cheap or costly?
These sorts of paradoxes are common in Scripture, like it or not. And this is one of them. It is both, as the fuller quote explains:
quote:
“Such grace is costly because it calls us to follow, and it is grace because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ. It is costly because it costs a man his life, and it is grace because it gives a man the only true life. It is costly because it condemns sin, and grace because it justifies the sinner… Above all, it is costly because it cost God the life of his Son… Above all, it is grace because God did not reckon his Son too dear a price to pay for our life, but delivered him up for us.” -Cost of Discipleship
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Granted I have not yet read the book, but from the quote and from instances used in conversation I do not understand the meaning.
Grace is by very definition free - a free gift. How can it then be either cheap or costly?
quote:
It is costly because it costs a man his life, and it is grace because it gives a man the only true life."
Sounds like he's saying you will receive the only true life as a gift, but only if you pay for it.
Makes no sense.
So is grace grace or not?
Bonhoeffer is ripping off Jesus here:
quote:
“If any want to become my followers, let them deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. For those who want to save their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake, and for the sake of the gospel, will save it.” -- Mark 8:34-35
Jesus and Bonhoeffer are saying that to follow Christ means to give up control of your life-- to give up living life on your own terms, the life you choose, shape and make for yourself. But in return you get, as Bonhoeffer says so well, "the only life worth living." The life you were created for, the life you were always meant to live-- if only you had known it.
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Felafool
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# 270
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Posted
I think Paul deals with this in his letter to the Roman Christians.
Romans 6vv1-3 "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?"
Seems early Christians felt that because forgiveness is free (albeit at great cost to the crucified Jesus Christ), they could do what they liked and be forgiven over and over again. I have been there also.
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Sipech
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# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Grace is by very definition free - a free gift. How can it then be either cheap or costly?
I would amend that slightly. Grace is by very definition free for the recipient. That's not the same as saying it is totally free, both for the giver and receiver. God's gift of grace came at the cost of Jesus' death.
As I understand it, the target of Bonhoeffer's criticism was those who would say they offered grace, but where there was no cost to them. i.e. grace is never a zero-sum game. It always costs someone, but in this case it is the giver who bears the cost. It's not a commercial transaction (hence why the prosperity gospel is such anathema).
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
Ah, I remember struggling with Bonhoeffer on this when I was a teenager.
My conclusion is that the Grace of God is actually an paradox, it is both free and costly. Freely given and freely accepted but the cost is everything you've got.
I think what Bonhoeffer was getting at was that in his time it was possible for Germans to see themselves as Christians because they'd ticked all the correct boxes and that they (the German Christians) thought that this was all that was needed or involved in Christian discipleship. Turn up, go to the right number of meetings, shake the right hands, etc.
But for Bonhoeffer, the Christian life meant an inevitable collision with the Powers That Be, and so I think (at least part of) what he was saying was along the lines of "You can't just sit there and smile whilst all this (the escalation of Nazi brutality) is going on around you."
Costly Grace, for Bonhoeffer meant the rejection of the invitation to go and spend time in Gandhi's ashram, the rejection of an academic life in North America and the costly cross of standing in the way of the Nazi regime.
I must read him again, I wonder if I'll see his work in a completely different light now.
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arse
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
Evensong, rather than what it meant for Bonhoeffer, of for other people at other times, for us I think it means that that it's a lie to proclaim grace without the call to amendment of life. Jesus meets us where we are, but so that he can take us to somewhere else. He may accept us as we are, but he does not affirm us as we are. Mr Cheesy has put it rather well,
quote:
the Grace of God is actually an paradox, it is both free and costly. Freely given and freely accepted but the cost is everything you've got.
Is that any help?
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Jemima the 9th
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# 15106
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Posted
I read the book a little while ago, and my impression of the criticism of cheap grace is similar to this couple of lines from the article you linked to:
quote:
Cheap grace is the grace we bestow on ourselves. Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession…. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate.
In other words, it's saying "I believe that Christ died for me, and my sins are forgiven" without any change in behaviour for the better. (Cue further discussion about faith vs works etc etc)
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
Bonhoeffer's argument is a bit more nuanced than just "salvation by grace v works". He's really talking about the essence of what discipleship is-- it's following Jesus. That that is even an option for us is grace. We don't follow Jesus/pursue holiness because we're trying to earn grace or be "good enough" to deserve God's love/Christ's sacrifice. We follow Jesus because we trust that it is the best possible life for us. So, yes, it costs us everything-- our very lives-- but it is grace, because it gives us, again, "the only life worth living."
Again, Bonhoeffer is just parsing out what Jesus has already said in the parable of the treasure hidden in a field/pearl of great price, and in the passage I quoted above about "the only way to gain your life is to lose it."
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Yep. That sounds about rightvto me. Easier to give assent, though, than to work out in practice.
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
Amen to that.
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Evensong
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# 14696
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Posted
Thank you all for your considered and insightful responses.
I'm afraid I ain't buying what Bonhoeffer has to sell. It seems to me he is redefining Grace. It certainly aint free.
I sometimes think Reformation theology gets its knickers in such a knot when they propound singular principles like "grace alone" that they have to spend half their time backtracking or redefining when it comes to realtime life.
If the idea of sola gratis comes from Ephesians 2, then it seems to me the free gift of God is the inclusion of the gentiles in the covenant. The free gift is that they can now be part of it. This was nothing to do with their merits, simply something new God decided to do.
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
Evensong, I don't agree with you there. What else is there apart from grace? We are all dependent on God's grace, his generosity, his goodwill if you like. We only have a place in Christ's kingdom at his invitation.
None of us can say, 'I've qualified; I'm such a fantastic chappie/ess that God is lucky to have me believing in him'.
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Bonhoeffer's argument is a bit more nuanced than just "salvation by grace v works". He's really talking about the essence of what discipleship is-- it's following Jesus. That that is even an option for us is grace. We don't follow Jesus/pursue holiness because we're trying to earn grace or be "good enough" to deserve God's love/Christ's sacrifice. We follow Jesus because we trust that it is the best possible life for us. So, yes, it costs us everything-- our very lives-- but it is grace, because it gives us, again, "the only life worth living."
Again, Bonhoeffer is just parsing out what Jesus has already said in the parable of the treasure hidden in a field/pearl of great price, and in the passage I quoted above about "the only way to gain your life is to lose it."
I find this very interesting, and it has parallels in other religions; for example, the idea of self-annihilation is found in some Eastern religions.
One issue is that it's a moving target; I mean, that losing your life can mean anything. I would normally link it with attachment, and letting go of attachments, but that is just one version of it.
The other interesting point for me, is that many people find that life itself does this, that is, it kind of wrecks them, or wrecks their self-image. Hence, from ego to beyond-the-ego.
Then, we are all Christ, no?
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Enoch: None of us can say, 'I've qualified; I'm such a fantastic chappie/ess that God is lucky to have me believing in him'.
Yes we can say that. And He'll still be happy that we believe in Him.
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HCH
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# 14313
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Posted
I think the idea is that grace is utterly free but we must accept it on an ongoing basis, which is by no means easy for everyone.
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
I have a nasty feeling that cheap grace is simply grace given to people we don't like.
In some cases, as Bonhoeffer's, this may be perfectly reasonable, and this is in any case a caricature of the case Bonhoeffer is making. Nevertheless, in terms of the way the phrase is actually used now, I'm pretty sure I'm right.
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
I have a nasty feeling that cheap grace is simply grace given to people we don't like.
In some cases, as Bonhoeffer's, this may be perfectly reasonable, and this is in any case a caricature of the case Bonhoeffer is making. Nevertheless, in terms of the way the phrase is actually used now, I'm pretty sure I'm right.
Nah, it's grace without repentance.
If you've read Bonhoeffer, you'd know that he was also of the opinion that a person has no business standing in judgment over another. In his case, it's strictly a condemnation of a doctrine that leads people to damnation by preaching moral and ethical nihilism on the basis of "I can do as I please because I'm pre-emptively forgiven."
I've heard people say that. I wouldn't judge them personally, because that's not my affair, but it's a horrible teaching and I think Bonhoeffer had a first row seat from which to see how and why.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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Evensong
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# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Evensong, I don't agree with you there. What else is there apart from grace? We are all dependent on God's grace, his generosity, his goodwill if you like. We only have a place in Christ's kingdom at his invitation.
None of us can say, 'I've qualified; I'm such a fantastic chappie/ess that God is lucky to have me believing in him'.
It seems to me those most eager and fervent to pronounce Grace are those also most eager to pronounce Law.
I don't think Bonhoeffer is to be credited with such an idea (Bullfrog provides a good indication of his context), but it has been my experience to an extent and seems to me to be something of a cognitive dissonance.
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Evensong
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# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
I have a nasty feeling that cheap grace is simply grace given to people we don't like.
In some cases, as Bonhoeffer's, this may be perfectly reasonable, and this is in any case a caricature of the case Bonhoeffer is making. Nevertheless, in terms of the way the phrase is actually used now, I'm pretty sure I'm right.
Nah, it's grace without repentance.
If you've read Bonhoeffer, you'd know that he was also of the opinion that a person has no business standing in judgment over another. In his case, it's strictly a condemnation of a doctrine that leads people to damnation by preaching moral and ethical nihilism on the basis of "I can do as I please because I'm pre-emptively forgiven."
Isn't that judgement of another?
Or is it a fair target because it's a doctrine ? ( Whose doctrine btw?)
[ 07. May 2016, 11:27: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
I have a nasty feeling that cheap grace is simply grace given to people we don't like.
In some cases, as Bonhoeffer's, this may be perfectly reasonable, and this is in any case a caricature of the case Bonhoeffer is making. Nevertheless, in terms of the way the phrase is actually used now, I'm pretty sure I'm right.
Nah, it's grace without repentance.
If you've read Bonhoeffer, you'd know that he was also of the opinion that a person has no business standing in judgment over another. In his case, it's strictly a condemnation of a doctrine that leads people to damnation by preaching moral and ethical nihilism on the basis of "I can do as I please because I'm pre-emptively forgiven."
I've heard people say that. I wouldn't judge them personally, because that's not my affair, but it's a horrible teaching and I think Bonhoeffer had a first row seat from which to see how and why.
While the above is no doubt true, I don't believe that really reflects the main point Bonhoeffer is getting at in Cost of Discipleship. Again, if you read the fuller quote I furnished above, I think it is clear that his point is not that you are a better or worse Christian because you do/don't sin. It's not that you need to pursue obedience in order to please God or earn his love. It rather goes to the heart and definition of "discipleship". Discipleship is a free choice in which we freely and joyfully exchange our lives-- the lives we choose and control for ourselves-- for the life God has for us, whatever that might be. We don't do that to be "good enough" or to "be saved." We do that because we believe that pursuing holiness is the only way to gain the life God has for us, and we trust that that life is the best possible life for us. It isn't the life we would choose or make for ourselves-- it's better. It is the life we were created for. Again, I think that's simply a parsing out of the parable of the hidden treasure/pearl of great price/Mark 8:34-35.
Every aspect of Bonhoeffer's life really reflects that belief-- his participation in the resistance and the Confessing Church, but also his choices in smaller, more personal matters and the way he went to his death.
Of course, as Thunderbunk noted, that doesn't stop people from taking the term he's coined and using it in manners quite different from what he intended.
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Truman White
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# 17290
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Posted
Spose you could think in terms of cheapening grace. Say you mess up, hurt someone - you can receive Christ's forgiveness freely and graciously given. But if you make no effort to make amends, clean your mess up, make restitution (whatever term you prefer) then you've cheapened grace. Grace isn't just about you getting to a happy place with God - it's Christ's life let loose in the world to redeem it.
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
I have a nasty feeling that cheap grace is simply grace given to people we don't like.
In some cases, as Bonhoeffer's, this may be perfectly reasonable, and this is in any case a caricature of the case Bonhoeffer is making. Nevertheless, in terms of the way the phrase is actually used now, I'm pretty sure I'm right.
Nah, it's grace without repentance.
If you've read Bonhoeffer, you'd know that he was also of the opinion that a person has no business standing in judgment over another. In his case, it's strictly a condemnation of a doctrine that leads people to damnation by preaching moral and ethical nihilism on the basis of "I can do as I please because I'm pre-emptively forgiven."
I've heard people say that. I wouldn't judge them personally, because that's not my affair, but it's a horrible teaching and I think Bonhoeffer had a first row seat from which to see how and why.
While the above is no doubt true, I don't believe that really reflects the main point Bonhoeffer is getting at in Cost of Discipleship. Again, if you read the fuller quote I furnished above, I think it is clear that his point is not that you are a better or worse Christian because you do/don't sin. It's not that you need to pursue obedience in order to please God or earn his love. It rather goes to the heart and definition of "discipleship". Discipleship is a free choice in which we freely and joyfully exchange our lives-- the lives we choose and control for ourselves-- for the life God has for us, whatever that might be. We don't do that to be "good enough" or to "be saved." We do that because we believe that pursuing holiness is the only way to gain the life God has for us, and we trust that that life is the best possible life for us. It isn't the life we would choose or make for ourselves-- it's better. It is the life we were created for. Again, I think that's simply a parsing out of the parable of the hidden treasure/pearl of great price/Mark 8:34-35.
Every aspect of Bonhoeffer's life really reflects that belief-- his participation in the resistance and the Confessing Church, but also his choices in smaller, more personal matters and the way he went to his death.
Of course, as Thunderbunk noted, that doesn't stop people from taking the term he's coined and using it in manners quite different from what he intended.
That is exceedingly well-stated. I completely agree.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
I have a nasty feeling that cheap grace is simply grace given to people we don't like.
In some cases, as Bonhoeffer's, this may be perfectly reasonable, and this is in any case a caricature of the case Bonhoeffer is making. Nevertheless, in terms of the way the phrase is actually used now, I'm pretty sure I'm right.
Nah, it's grace without repentance.
If you've read Bonhoeffer, you'd know that he was also of the opinion that a person has no business standing in judgment over another. In his case, it's strictly a condemnation of a doctrine that leads people to damnation by preaching moral and ethical nihilism on the basis of "I can do as I please because I'm pre-emptively forgiven."
Isn't that judgement of another?
Or is it a fair target because it's a doctrine ? ( Whose doctrine btw?)
Bonhoeffer states very, very sternly that judging another person is not something any Christian is qualified to do.
Of course, on some level this could be an implicit judgment of anyone who judges. But in the end (and I agree with him on this, so hopefully I'm not just reading this into him) Bonhoeffer was very understanding of people and ruthless when it came to attacking doctrines that he believed had undermined the German church when it was morally imperative to resist Nazism.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
I can't locate the passage right now, but somewhere in his letters Paul said, "Who are you to judge another's servant?"
Moo
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
Romans 14:4
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
I have a nasty feeling that cheap grace is simply grace given to people we don't like.
Agreeing with you that the common usage may not reflect Bonhoeffer's intended meaning of the term.
But isn't that common-use meaning more like "grace given to or believed in by people who haven't earned it by going through the rituals we go through" ?
Which isn't logical of course. Grace is gratis. It's not earned by tithing, by doing good deeds for others we don't like, by sitting through tedious sermons, by performing sacraments, by putting up with any of the stuff we go through in order to buy our way into God's good books.
Workers in t'vineyard and all that.
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Again, if you read the fuller quote I furnished above, I think it is clear that his point is not that you are a better or worse Christian because you do/don't sin. It's not that you need to pursue obedience in order to please God or earn his love. It rather goes to the heart and definition of "discipleship".
Does Grace require discipleship, or is it free to all whether they're disciples or not?
For that matter, have we even defined what we mean by "Grace"?
quote:
Discipleship is a free choice in which we freely and joyfully exchange our lives-- the lives we choose and control for ourselves-- for the life God has for us, whatever that might be. We don't do that to be "good enough" or to "be saved." We do that because we believe that pursuing holiness is the only way to gain the life God has for us,
Isn't "to gain the life God has for us" just another way of saying "to be saved"?
quote:
and we trust that that life is the best possible life for us.
That's a lot easier said than done.
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Hail Gallaxhar
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Again, if you read the fuller quote I furnished above, I think it is clear that his point is not that you are a better or worse Christian because you do/don't sin. It's not that you need to pursue obedience in order to please God or earn his love. It rather goes to the heart and definition of "discipleship".
Does Grace require discipleship, or is it free to all whether they're disciples or not?
For that matter, have we even defined what we mean by "Grace"?
quote:
Discipleship is a free choice in which we freely and joyfully exchange our lives-- the lives we choose and control for ourselves-- for the life God has for us, whatever that might be. We don't do that to be "good enough" or to "be saved." We do that because we believe that pursuing holiness is the only way to gain the life God has for us,
Isn't "to gain the life God has for us" just another way of saying "to be saved"?.
I think these two questions are essentially asking the same thing. Obviously opinions vary.
fwiw, I would distinguish between "salvation" and "discipleship". I believe salvation is a free gift to all (possibly "all" all-- i.e. universal). Discipleship is a choice-- we choose to follow-- made possible by God's grace.
I believe grace is seen any time God shows up. So it is by God's grace that we are saved. But it is also by God's grace that we are transformed. Grace is acting in different ways in both instances, but both are grace-- God's activity in our lives.
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
and we trust that that life is the best possible life for us.
That's a lot easier said than done.
That point was made (almost word for word) upthread. I agreed then, and do now as well of course.
[ 11. May 2016, 19:45: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
fwiw, I would distinguish between "salvation" and "discipleship". I believe salvation is a free gift to all (possibly "all" all-- i.e. universal). Discipleship is a choice-- we choose to follow-- made possible by God's grace.
Discipleship is not an optional extra to salvation. Nobody is saved unless they pick up their cross and follow.
It isn't about salvation-by-works, it is about what the Christian life looks like - and that is a life of self-sacrifice.
quote:
I believe grace is seen any time God shows up. So it is by God's grace that we are saved. But it is also by God's grace that we are transformed. Grace is acting in different ways in both instances, but both are grace-- God's activity in our lives.
I think we talk about God's grace in various ways. For example people use to say "there but for the Grace of God go I". Which sounds pretty horrible to our ears (implying that as I'm not afflicted with something I must be a recipient of God's Grace) but does actually illustrate something useful - namely that sometimes we might not get what we deserve out of the generosity and - yes - Grace of God.
Grace implies a lot of things, but chiefly I think it is about (a) getting things we don't deserve and (b) not getting things we do deserve.
I can't believe that God's unexpected grace can be predicted nor that his hand can be forced.
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arse
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Originally posted by cliffdweller: quote:
fwiw, I would distinguish between "salvation" and "discipleship". I believe salvation is a free gift to all (possibly "all" all-- i.e. universal). Discipleship is a choice-- we choose to follow-- made possible by God's grace.
Discipleship is not an optional extra to salvation. Nobody is saved unless they pick up their cross and follow.
Like I said, opinions vary. This is one aspect of the Calvinist/Arminian divide, for one thing. Which is why I prefaced it as I did.
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
It isn't about salvation-by-works, it is about what the Christian life looks like - and that is a life of self-sacrifice.
Yes-- which, curiously enough, turns out to be "the only life worth having".
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Originally posted by cliffdweller: quote:
I believe grace is seen any time God shows up. So it is by God's grace that we are saved. But it is also by God's grace that we are transformed. Grace is acting in different ways in both instances, but both are grace-- God's activity in our lives.
I think we talk about God's grace in various ways. For example people use to say "there but for the Grace of God go I". Which sounds pretty horrible to our ears (implying that as I'm not afflicted with something I must be a recipient of God's Grace) but does actually illustrate something useful - namely that sometimes we might not get what we deserve out of the generosity and - yes - Grace of God.
Grace implies a lot of things, but chiefly I think it is about (a) getting things we don't deserve and (b) not getting things we do deserve.
I would pretty much agree with all of that, but I think the defining characteristic is "God's activity."
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I can't believe that God's unexpected grace can be predicted nor that his hand can be forced.
Agreed-- as I expect most everyone here would. Was there someone you thought had implied otherwise?
[ 12. May 2016, 00:14: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Originally posted by cliffdweller: quote:
fwiw, I would distinguish between "salvation" and "discipleship". I believe salvation is a free gift to all (possibly "all" all-- i.e. universal). Discipleship is a choice-- we choose to follow-- made possible by God's grace.
Discipleship is not an optional extra to salvation. Nobody is saved unless they pick up their cross and follow.
Like I said, opinions vary. This is one aspect of the Calvinist/Arminian divide, for one thing. Which is why I prefaced it as I did.
No, it really has nothing to do with the Calvinist/Arminian divide. In fact one could argue the same point from both directions:
Calvinist: The normal Christian life is one of self-sacrifice. Therefore a mark of the elect is that they exhibit a self-sacrificial lifestyle. Therefore those who claim to follow the Lord but do not live that kind of life are wolves in lambs clothing and are not part of the Elect.
Arminian: God's salvation is freely offered, and can be freely rejected at any time by the believer. The mark of true acceptance of the salvation of God is in self-sacrifice. God is loving and just, but ultimately if you don't want to pick up your cross, God will take this as a rejection of his offer of salvation.
At best this is a debate which is framed around salvation by works vs unearned salvation by faith, but even that is misleading as I've suggested above. It is perfectly possible to believe that the Christian life is one marked by self-sacrifice whilst being a Calvinist or Arminian (or anything else) without needing to believe that God is somehow weighing up good deeds to see if one is good enough.
quote:
I would pretty much agree with all of that, but I think the defining characteristic is "God's activity."
That's just circular reasoning.
What is Grace? The Activity of God in our lives.
How do we know those Activities are full of Grace? Because God is good.
How do we know God is good? Because God is the origin of all goodness.
How do we know God is the origin of all Goodness? By direct experience of his activity in our lives.
Also it is just a silly thing to say. When Lot's wife was turned into a pillar of salt, was that a Graceful act of God - or was it a vindictive spiteful act by an all-powerful being against an individual who had a moment of indecision?
The only way one could really argue that this is an example of Grace would be to argue that all actions of the deity are Grace, which then degenerates the meaning to the point that it has no meaning beyond "the actions of God".
And I refuse to believe that. I believe that the God we see in Jesus Christ is kind and graceful, with deep feeling for the oppressed, the dispossessed and the weak. If he was hard and vindictive, ignoring the cries of the poor then we couldn't describe that in all seriousness as graceful.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I can't believe that God's unexpected grace can be predicted nor that his hand can be forced.
Agreed-- as I expect most everyone here would. Was there someone you thought had implied otherwise?
Yes, in the effort to stamp a claim of a saving salvation moment wholly apart from the sacrificial life, I believe that's exactly what you were doing. Utterly wrong.
[ 12. May 2016, 07:43: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Originally posted by cliffdweller: quote:
fwiw, I would distinguish between "salvation" and "discipleship". I believe salvation is a free gift to all (possibly "all" all-- i.e. universal). Discipleship is a choice-- we choose to follow-- made possible by God's grace.
Discipleship is not an optional extra to salvation. Nobody is saved unless they pick up their cross and follow.
Like I said, opinions vary. This is one aspect of the Calvinist/Arminian divide, for one thing. Which is why I prefaced it as I did.
No, it really has nothing to do with the Calvinist/Arminian divide. In fact one could argue the same point from both directions:
Calvinist: The normal Christian life is one of self-sacrifice. Therefore a mark of the elect is that they exhibit a self-sacrificial lifestyle. Therefore those who claim to follow the Lord but do not live that kind of life are wolves in lambs clothing and are not part of the Elect.
Arminian: God's salvation is freely offered, and can be freely rejected at any time by the believer. The mark of true acceptance of the salvation of God is in self-sacrifice. God is loving and just, but ultimately if you don't want to pick up your cross, God will take this as a rejection of his offer of salvation.
At best this is a debate which is framed around salvation by works vs unearned salvation by faith, but even that is misleading as I've suggested above. It is perfectly possible to believe that the Christian life is one marked by self-sacrifice whilst being a Calvinist or Arminian (or anything else) without needing to believe that God is somehow weighing up good deeds to see if one is good enough.
quote:
I would pretty much agree with all of that, but I think the defining characteristic is "God's activity."
That's just circular reasoning.
What is Grace? The Activity of God in our lives.
How do we know those Activities are full of Grace? Because God is good.
How do we know God is good? Because God is the origin of all goodness.
How do we know God is the origin of all Goodness? By direct experience of his activity in our lives.
Also it is just a silly thing to say. When Lot's wife was turned into a pillar of salt, was that a Graceful act of God - or was it a vindictive spiteful act by an all-powerful being against an individual who had a moment of indecision?
The only way one could really argue that this is an example of Grace would be to argue that all actions of the deity are Grace, which then degenerates the meaning to the point that it has no meaning beyond "the actions of God".
And I refuse to believe that. I believe that the God we see in Jesus Christ is kind and graceful, with deep feeling for the oppressed, the dispossessed and the weak. If he was hard and vindictive, ignoring the cries of the poor then we couldn't describe that in all seriousness as graceful.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I can't believe that God's unexpected grace can be predicted nor that his hand can be forced.
Agreed-- as I expect most everyone here would. Was there someone you thought had implied otherwise?
Yes, in the effort to stamp a claim of a saving salvation moment wholly apart from the sacrificial life, I believe that's exactly what you were doing. Utterly wrong.
Don't even know where to start. You are way way way off in pretty much all of the above-- reading into what I'm saying things I never said, and insisting on a blind universal agreement on fundamental questions of soteriology where there is diversity. I'm not sure if you're doing that intentionally as a foil for an argument you want to make irregardless of what others are saying, or if you really misunderstand what I'm saying to that large a degree.
Again, just can't even begin to unpack all the missteps there. Just: no. Not what I said. Not what I meant. Not there. No.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
These sorts of ideas often lead me to a different question: the universal one.
Where is the Grace of God in the unbeliever's life? Or the person that has never known Christ?
Rather seems to matter. Because it informs ours.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
fwiw, I would distinguish between "salvation" and "discipleship".
So would I. Salvation is important in its own right, whereas discipleship is only important if it is an essential prerequisite for salvation.
quote:
I believe salvation is a free gift to all (possibly "all" all-- i.e. universal). Discipleship is a choice-- we choose to follow-- made possible by God's grace.
For sure. But if salvation is given anyway, why should we bother to choose all that tedious and difficult discipleship business?
quote:
I believe grace is seen any time God shows up. So it is by God's grace that we are saved. But it is also by God's grace that we are transformed. Grace is acting in different ways in both instances, but both are grace-- God's activity in our lives.
The question is, do we have to be transformed in order to be saved, or is it an optional extra in the salvation package?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
These sorts of ideas often lead me to a different question: the universal one.
Where is the Grace of God in the unbeliever's life? Or the person that has never known Christ?
Rather seems to matter. Because it informs ours.
Yes, a big question. It was through meeting people of different faiths, who struck me as full of grace, or God-intoxicated, or some phrase like that, that I changed. Well, I didn't do the changing of course. The barriers came down.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
fwiw, I would distinguish between "salvation" and "discipleship".
So would I. Salvation is important in its own right, whereas discipleship is only important if it is an essential prerequisite for salvation.
quote:
I believe salvation is a free gift to all (possibly "all" all-- i.e. universal). Discipleship is a choice-- we choose to follow-- made possible by God's grace.
For sure. But if salvation is given anyway, why should we bother to choose all that tedious and difficult discipleship business?
quote:
I believe grace is seen any time God shows up. So it is by God's grace that we are saved. But it is also by God's grace that we are transformed. Grace is acting in different ways in both instances, but both are grace-- God's activity in our lives.
The question is, do we have to be transformed in order to be saved, or is it an optional extra in the salvation package?
Yes, that is the question. In part because we tend to think of discipleship precisely as you said above-- " tedious and difficult"-- something to be avoided if at all possible. Which, again, is why Bonhoeffer is writing. Bonhoeffer's contention, which I agree, is that discipleship-- while costly-- is anything but "tedious and difficult". Well, difficult, maybe, but certainly not tedious. It is, rather, the life we were meant to live-- the only life worth living.
Again, this is what the parable of the treasure hidden in the field and the pearl of great price are all about. Discipleship costs you everything-- your entire life-- but you don't (or shouldn't) hand it over reluctantly as the bribe for salvation. Salvation is a free gift. Rather, we trade everything in order to gain the only thing that matters-- the life God has for us. Difficult, but certainly not tedious.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
cliffdweller: I would distinguish between "salvation" and "discipleship".
I wouldn't. The only way the word 'salvation' makes sense to me, is when I think of it as being saved from our selfishness and egoism.
"Why would I do discipleship if it isn't necessary for salvation?" First of all, that's a "What's in it for me?" question, exactly the type salvation saves you from. And secondly, in a sense discipleship is salvation.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
cliffdweller: I would distinguish between "salvation" and "discipleship".
I wouldn't. The only way the word 'salvation' makes sense to me, is when I think of it as being saved from our selfishness and egoism.
"Why would I do discipleship if it isn't necessary for salvation?" First of all, that's a "What's in it for me?" question, exactly the type salvation saves you from. And secondly, in a sense discipleship is salvation.
In one way I'd agree with you-- the biblical word "salvation" is used quite broadly, as you suggest, and can include a variety of things such as "saved from my enemies", "saved from an untimely death", etc. as well as "saved from eternal punishment." In that sense I'd agree-- discipleship is choosing to follow Jesus, to give up your life for the life he offers, the only life worth living. And that is salvation-- in the "saved from a fruitless way of life" sense.
But in the sense we generally use "salvation"-- the sense it seems to be used here, the narrower sense of "saved from eternal damnation/ separation from God"-- I think it is different from discipleship (or sanctification). But again, that's an old dispute-- some traditions, particularly my Wesleyan traditions, distinguish between salvation/redemption and discipleship/sanctification-- others, most notably Lutheran or Calvinist traditions-- see the two events happening concurrently so there's no distinguishable distinction.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
cliffdweller: But in the sense we generally use "salvation"-- the sense it seems to be used here, the narrower sense of "saved from eternal damnation/ separation from God
I don't ![[Smile]](smile.gif) I think this is a useless way to think of the term 'salvation'.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
cliffdweller: But in the sense we generally use "salvation"-- the sense it seems to be used here, the narrower sense of "saved from eternal damnation/ separation from God
I don't I think this is a useless way to think of the term 'salvation'.
Well, unless others are concerned about it and specifically asking about it. Although I may be jumping to the conclusion that that is how others on this thread are using it due to my evangelical context.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Nobody on sof believes that. Nobody.
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Love wins
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Nobody on sof believes that. Nobody.
mr cheesy does, apparently
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
No he doesn't.
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Love wins
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
Well, if that's the case, then I'm really confused about what his objection to my earlier post was about. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
That's de rigueur on this thread.
Grace made manifest to us is the Crucifixion.
That cost.
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Love wins
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
The cost isn't to us. If we claim it is, we're deluded. As in ALL claims. Which of us suffers, sacrifices in any meaningful way for Christ?
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Love wins
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
cliffdweller: But in the sense we generally use "salvation"-- the sense it seems to be used here, the narrower sense of "saved from eternal damnation/ separation from God
I don't I think this is a useless way to think of the term 'salvation'.
Well, unless others are concerned about it and specifically asking about it. Although I may be jumping to the conclusion that that is how others on this thread are using it due to my evangelical context.
That's certainly how I'm using it.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Marvin the Martian: That's certainly how I'm using it.
So, my answer to your questions on this thread would be: that's not a very helpful definition of salvation.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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