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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Evangelism for the un-evangelistically inclined
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I have a conundrum. One among many.
I believe, like ExclamationMark on the 'Battle for Christianity' thread, that mission should be at the heart of what churches are all about.
I believe in evangelism.
My difficulty is discerning what that should look like in my own case as a somewhat post-evangelical type who baulks at some of the methods and assumptions apparent at my local evangelical parish.
I'm involved with community stuff - town council, local arts groups, occasional voluntary charitable work - and these days my focus tends to lie more in those directions than in church meetings, house-groups, prayer-meetings and so on and so forth.
Our local parish is planning to get welcome packs together and to meet/greet and engage with people moving into some planned new housing developments (the number of households in the parish may increase by 40% over the next few years).
I'm happy to supply some facts, figures and details from knowledge picked up as a town councillor and to help edit or supply material for packs. I wouldn't particular object to knocking on doors and inviting people to things if I thought it was appropriate - even though I mightn't be that interested myself in the activity promoted (such as Alpha or 'meet the neighbours' evenings and so on).
What I don't want to do is 'prayer walk' and get involved with prayer meetings and traditional forms of evangelism ... not because I don't believe in prayer, nor that I don't believe in evangelism ... but it's just - you know - the kinds of prayers, assumptions and the way these things would be presented would act as a complete turn-off.
They would give me the screaming ab-dabs.
I don't knock the zeal, energy and commitment of those who are enthusiastically getting behind these initiatives but I'm afraid I can't muster a great deal of enthusiasm myself.
I'm sure Shippies who've had a similar 'journey' to myself (dreadful phrase) will know where I'm coming from on that.
The thing is, though, at least these zealous evangelical types are doing something ... the liberals and MoTR folk aren't.
Is this a conundrum I simply have to grin and bear?
![[Confused]](confused.gif) ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I think it helps to tease out what actually constitutes evangelism from what is branded as evangelism.
To actually constitute evangelism, a number of criteria have to be fulfilled, for instance:
- the activity has to include the Gospel message
- but also not put any unnecessary obstacle in the way of the hearer
- the person evangelising has to be doing so with integrity (so no qualms or hypocrisy)
I would add that it has to have a good cost-benefit ratio. Too many huge projects are exhausting, drain church resouces, and don't produce any tangible results.
One event I recently partipated in with enthusiasm was an inter-church artistic event called 'Seeds of Hope'. Held in an attractive school venue, it featured two photo exhibits, sketches, musical performances, and a short address. Guests sat around tables and were offered talking points between presentations. Overall this was fun, unembarrassing, impactful - and relatively inexpensive.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
Perhaps the route is to look for ways in which all your particular vocations can be used to serve the people inside the area that your church has decided is its mission field (the new development), and then let the evangelistic bits emerge as a natural byproduct?
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
I think the idea that all of us should be evangelists is not in fact supported by the Bible, although it is a very good way of making the congregation feel guilty:
quote:
Ephesians 4:11-12
The gifts he gave were that some would be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
An outsider's view. We are a new suburban estate though an unusual one (self built). In the last 10 years we've had regular visits from JW, also (less frequently) Seventh Day Adventists and least often Buddhists.
Maybe others have called and I've been out, I'm not aware of visits from Methodists (chapel, a couple of hundred yards down the road) or Anglicans (must have a church somewhere near ...) or any other group.
JW want to talk about religion but will politely settle for handing you a leaflet.
The SDA are mature ladies of Afro-carribean descent. They are jolly, talk about the gardens, children, and generally easy to get on with. There is a leaflet if you want it.
The last Buddhist (Triratna) visitor was looking for support for their charity (as it happens we've supported it since before he was born!). There was also a leaflet on their meetings.
If I were tempted (ignoring what I know of their doctrines), it would by the last two: they are outward looking which I think appeals to more people than religion (or religiosity) in itself.
So for me, Gamaliel, you'd be welcome any time - maybe we could skip the prayers.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Gamaliel:
I warm to what you say, especially as I'm working hard to try to "build" evangelism into a church with a liberal tradition. The problems we're facing includes a suspicion of anything which might be called "proselytisation" and also the very real difficulty which people have I articulating their faith (among themselves, let alone with outsiders).
I think the crucial thing - as hinted by Eutychus - is to create situations where talking about God/Jesus can naturally and easily occur. The problem is that it's easy to arrange all sorts of events such as community days, coffee mornings, concerts and the like, only to find that the Christians will talk about anything except their faith: the weather, the church, the music, the price of fish. Perhaps it's seen as counter-cultural to talk of religion?
We had a very good church meeting recently with a chap called Peter Thomas from a Baptist church in Chelmsford. He has a very good website which includes a lot of very helpful (and cheap!) suggestions as to what can be done. Clearly different things will "work" in different situations - but nothing will be any good unless Christians themselves are prepared to "tell their stories". So enabling that has to be the key; and hesitancy in sharing may in fact be more helpful than know-it-all arrogance.
By the way, there is an excellent book by Elmer Thiessen on "The Ethics of Evangelism" - integrity and honesty are crucial!
Chris Stiles:
Clearly you're right. The problem is that the "evangelistic bits" simply don't seem to "emerge as a natural byproduct" - the church probably needs to be a bit more intentional than that.
[ 12. May 2016, 09:42: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Perhaps it's seen as counter-cultural to talk of religion?
I think it is - by Christians.
I think many traditional forms of in-yer-face evangelism are completely anachronistic, but I reject utterly the notion that people don't want to talk about religion, belief, or the Gospel. It's the way we often do it that they want no truck with.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Chris Stiles:
Clearly you're right. The problem is that the "evangelistic bits" simply don't seem to "emerge as a natural byproduct" - the church probably needs to be a bit more intentional than that.
I would agree with what Eutychus said in his last post - and combine that with what Gamaliel's motivation seems to be in the OP - and suggest that perhaps evangelistic opportunities would emerge as a natural byproduct.
My experience is the same as that of Eutychus - a lot of people are happy to talk about religion and so on once they get to know you - it's the way that Christians try to do it that usually puts them off.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Helen-Eva
Shipmate
# 15025
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Posted
Why does it have to be all about talking? I like the quote about preaching the gospel but only using words when necessary. My small contributions to evangelism (two atheists to Anglicans and one militant atheist to agnostic) didn't involve me trying to persuade with words. I don't know how it happened tbh - I think it might be that NOT trying to persuade people into faith (while continuing to act as much as possible like a decent human being) surprised them so much they kind of came along anyway.
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I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
To be fair to our local parish church, even though it's one I don't see eye-to-eye with on all sorts of fronts and issues, the vicar isn't out to make people feel guilty on this issue.
He's fully aware that not everyone wants to go round prayer-walking or knocking on doors. He's not putting any pressure on me to engage in any of that, he's simply happy for me to chip in where I feel comfortable to do so.
I think the 'intentionality' thing is an issue for me at the moment, as I don't know what 'shape' that can take within the kinds of activities I'm primarily involved with - town council, community arts.
The town council used to have prayer at the outset and close of its sessions, it no longer does so. Some councillors preferred to sit out of that part. It does have an annual civic service at the Methodist church.
As far as the artsy things go, we use t'other parish church as a venue for concerts as it's the most appropriate building for that in the town. We do use other venues for other types of music. Some styles work better there than others.
There's nothing explicitly 'religious' about the majority of the arty events we organise and promote - although there was an interesting one at the URC once with poetry and music around a sculpture exhibition on themes of grief and loss - which was actually a lot more uplifting than it sounds.
What I find when I lead/compere open-mic sessions (and I'm doing so this evening alongside a guest poet reading at our regular Poems & Pints at my favourite local pub) is that very often someone will get up and perform a ranty piece about the evils of religion yadda yadda yadda ...
I've found that such people sometimes have a background in extreme or repressive forms of religion - the JWs say, or perhaps they were beaten (or buggered?) by the Christian Brothers - but by and large they haven't had any negative experiences of religion at all ... they're simply jumping on a band wagon and think they're being radical and subversive.
I may occasionally interject with a positive anecdote about religion or some such comment, but mostly I'll let it go and move onto the next item.
At any rate, I'm not sure how 'intentionally' evangelistic I can be in that kind of context nor on the town council, other than to conduct myself in a manner commensurate with what I believe to be core Christian principles.
So it's the 'intentionality' thing and how that might possibly emerge that is puzzling me at the moment.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Cross-posted with Helen Eva ...
Yes, I like the 'use words if necessary' thing about St Francis of Assisi, but apparently it was a misattributed quote and whatever else we might say about St Francis, he certainly wasn't backward in articulating his beliefs. He used words all the time. He went and preached to the Sultan of Egypt for goodness sake ... hoping either to share the Gospel or gain martyrdom.
I've seen some reactions against the conventional understanding of the much used saying, 'Preach the Gospel, use words if necessary' on RC websites - so it's not only conservative evangelicals who can object to the use/misuse of the phrase.
Of course, it's another of these both/and not either/or things - we should witness in word and deed - and our actions should be commensurate with our words.
Sadly, that's not often the case with any of us ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
When it comes to evangelism, I often take as my watchword Matthew 10:16 quote:
See, I am sending you out like sheep into the midst of wolves; so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.
It can probably be summed up in the word 'efficacy'. What may have worked in one time may not in another, but there can be tendencies to be a bit slow, getting stuck in our ways.
Take open air preaching for example. In the 18th century, John Wesley could draw a crowd that would listen to what he had to say. Today, I have yet to find a street preacher who is anything but an embarrassment. It does more harm than good and I wouldn't be sad to the back of it.
That said, given the diversity of the societies we live in, there needs to be a variety of evangelistic "techniques" (for want of a better word) and some churches and denominations will naturally be better at some than at others.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
very often someone will get up and perform a ranty piece about the evils of religion yadda yadda yadda ...
Great. So you buy them a pint and say, "tell me more about what inspired you to write that". If you've done a good contribution yourself, that gives you that bit more credibility. Where's the problem?
quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
Today, I have yet to find a street preacher who is anything but an embarrassment. It does more harm than good and I wouldn't be sad to the back of it.
I used to do a lot of non-ranty street preaching with a sketchboard having been trained by Open Air Campaigners. I think its day may have passed in the main, but we had a lot of fun and some great conversations - and I don't think it was too much of an embarrassment.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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beatmenace
Shipmate
# 16955
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
Today, I have yet to find a street preacher who is anything but an embarrassment. It does more harm than good and I wouldn't be sad to the back of it.
All you have to do is ask the Preacher what he thinks of Homosexuals or Muslims, and then report them for hate speech.
Works for 8 out of 10 (non-Manic) Street Preachers I understand.
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"I'm the village idiot , aspiring to great things." (The Icicle Works)
Posts: 297 | From: Whitley Bay | Registered: Feb 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
very often someone will get up and perform a ranty piece about the evils of religion yadda yadda yadda ...
Great. So you buy them a pint and say, "tell me more about what inspired you to write that". If you've done a good contribution yourself, that gives you that bit more credibility. Where's the problem?
It's not a problem. I'd be more than happy to do that. Not always feasible when you're the bloke doing the MC-ing, though.
I s'pose the point I was making was that there'll sometimes be some kind of 'opportunity' for conversation that arises in these contexts, but that's about as far is it goes.
Most of my artsy contacts are probably aware that I'm a Christian but by no means all of them, and other than with one or two it's not led to many conversations about issues of faith and so on - although it has in some instances.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
very often someone will get up and perform a ranty piece about the evils of religion yadda yadda yadda ...
Great. So you buy them a pint and say, "tell me more about what inspired you to write that". If you've done a good contribution yourself, that gives you that bit more credibility. Where's the problem?
It's not a problem. I'd be more than happy to do that. Not always feasible when you're the bloke doing the MC-ing, though.
I s'pose the point I was making was that there'll sometimes be some kind of 'opportunity' for conversation that arises in these contexts, but that's about as far is it goes.
Most of my artsy contacts are probably aware that I'm a Christian but by no means all of them, and other than with one or two it's not led to many conversations about issues of faith and so on - although it has in some instances.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
If you want to be more pro-active (I'm sorry, I just can't bring myself to use "intentional", it seems over-egged to me...) then get a bunch of churches to stage some kind of arty event with content (like our "Seeds of Hope").
We have done this enough times now to convince Christians that it's not cheesy, thus encouraging them to happily invite their friends (it must be good - I even invited some of mine, which is unprecedented!). And I'm confident that our quality is as good as any other amateur event.
It's all about getting the right thing and having genuine faith in it.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
That's a good idea - in theory. Not sure how I could see it working out in practice here, though.
The evangelical parish has staged Christian stand-up comedy events which were apparently accessible and non-cheesy (I didn't go, so I don't know).
It also staged a Gospel duo who were supposed to be non-cheesy but which I found indigestible.
People's mileage varies on things like that. My cheesy-tolerance level isn't very high.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
That's a good idea - in theory. Not sure how I could see it working out in practice here, though.
The evangelical parish has staged Christian stand-up comedy events which were apparently accessible and non-cheesy (I didn't go, so I don't know).
Artists symposium as an event? Inviting people who are thoughtful about their artistic process and/or Christians as well to present/lead sessions?
Do it as a service to the artistic community you are part of and don't worry overly about 'how this becomes an evangelistic event'
The intentionality is all around 'make a good shoe and sell it for a fair price'.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
I quite like the word intention. I think we read intention very well indeed. The person who calls me, checks I'm the person he wants, and then, before telling me why he's calling, asks me if I'm having a good day, that person is a con artist. I don't need to hear any more; our conversation is over. I don't want fake friendship for the sake of someone's sales.
On the other hand the new member of staff who gets flustered and makes a mess of my order, can easily be forgiven. Intention trumps delivery.
If our evangelism is really about our desire to fill our church, people will know this at once. They will probably smell it before we open our mouths. I think we all know this, and that this is why many of us avoid 'evangelism'.
But one beggar telling another beggar where to get bread, we know that's ok.
I think that in our evangelism we have to be open to learning something ourselves, and being changed ourselves. Perhaps that should actually be our intention, to receive as much as to give.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, I agree with all that, hatless.
One of the things that makes me feel uncomfortable about some of the proposals from our parish is that they want to 'get in' before the town council and other agencies - even Churches Together - with a list of amenities, contact numbers and so on for all 'non-salesy' organisations in the locality (they'll get details of plumbers, joiners and so on through the local free-distribution newsletter thingummy).
So, along with this welcome-pack with gubbings about where things are in and around the town, there'd be a welcome/invitation to some kind of church event.
I don't like this.
Give people details of what there is round and about, for sure, include details of your church, fine - but to use this as a thinly veiled attempt to invite everyone to some kind of event at YOUR church doesn't sit very well with me, I'm afraid.
To be fair, the parish church does a lot of good work with youth, runs a good Job Club in partnership with other agencies and a midweek coffee and communion for the otherwise house-bound - with a raft of volunteers giving old ladies lifts.
I'm not knocking any of that. But once it strays over the line into pushiness ... sorry ...
On the arts thing. I did organise some events for an atheist poet who has collaborated very fruitfully with an American Christian painter - who asked him to write poems in response to his very explicitly Christian-themed paintings.
That went well. There was a 'dialogue' if you like between the very questioning poems and the very in-your-face Christian art (which was actually quite good art too, it has to be said). The poet has taken this on the road to various venues around the county and beyond - there's a kind of slide-show presentation with background to the project and the poems and paintings working off each other alongside email conversations which show how a genuinely warm friendship and respect developed between the two men - who have yet to meet face-to-face ...
So, yes, thinking about it, I have facilitated some events with a kind of faith/non-faith interaction involved.
Perhaps there's scope for more?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Hatless is definitely onto something when he says intent is key.
To me the antidote to high-pressure evangelism is grace.
That speaks of spontaneity, no hidden agendas, no expectation of anything in return, and being secure in who you are and what you have to say.
Advertising a christian presence is fine if you believe you are genuinely and disinterestedly serving the community, not seeing it as potential pew fodder.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
To me the antidote to high-pressure evangelism is grace.
Related to that is the idea of trying to put oneself in another's place. All too often, evangelism is phrased with a level of frustration along the lines of "[why don't you understand this? We all get it]".
For example, in the supermarket car park a few weeks ago, someone was just randomly accosting passers-by by shouting "Jesus loves you" at people. To many a christian, this may be a succinct and powerful statement, but there is little appreciation that to the average person on the street it's fairly meaningless.
The worst evangelism, in my view, is akin to giving directions that you may have walked down from A to D via B & C, but the person you are talking to is starting from F and needs to be taken via E.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
One problem is that, annoyingly, cheesy evangelism can work.
The mother of one long-suffering lady in our church used to drive around town in a car emblazoned with Gospel texts in letters more than a foot high. We all felt this was wholly cringeworthy until another (wholly uncheesy, lefty, militant, activist type) lady in our church related in her baptism testimony that in her spiritual quest she closed her eyes, asked for a sign from God - and opened them to behold the car in question (without knowing whose it was).
There's no excuse for being deliberately foolish, but I do get the feeling, born of experience, that it has pleased God to save people through the foolishness of preaching.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sure, but because something 'works' doesn't necessarily make it right or ideal ...
Of course, God in his grace is bigger than all of this stuff, 'There's a wideness in God's mercy ...'
I've known people come to faith through presentations and tactics I'd have no hesitation in condemning as manipulative, wrong-headed or daft.
There is a balance in all of this but much contemporary charismatic evangelicalism is cursed by pragmatism. If something is seen to 'work' somewhere then there's a rush to adopt it, irrespective at times as to how sensible or even ethical it is ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I don't believe that mission should be at the heart of what churches are all about.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I don't believe that mission should be at the heart of what churches are all about.
I think that all depends on how "mission" is defined, on what it is understood to entail. IMHO, too many Christians and too many churches have a very limited view of "mission."
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
So, yes, thinking about it, I have facilitated some events with a kind of faith/non-faith interaction involved.
Perhaps there's scope for more?
Yes, totally. I assume that your activities in this area are a fairly long term thing for the most part - so doing more of this is simply applying the whole of your persona to a particular area of service.
So if that's the way you are being led settle happily for faithful presence over the long term and leave the rest to God.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I don't believe that mission should be at the heart of what churches are all about.
I sort of agree - we are solely for worship.
But what about the whole "go into all the world and preach the Gospel" directive? Or feeding the hungry, visiting the sick, clothing the naked, etc.?
Or are you perhaps considering doing those things in the name of Christ to be worship?
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
I am getting increasingly tired of words ending in -al as people seem to be able to make them mean what they want to mean. They have become a ind of in house churchspeak that is very hard to pin down.
You can be as intentional as you like but at what point do you bring faith into it? You can just be "doing" things under the guise of intentionality and never have any kind of spiritual impact, however friendly you may get.
On the other hand I've had two recent instances of where "gentle" evangelism has arisen out of church based activities involving rites of passage. In one case at a funeral it was a discussion about the hereafter, in another it was a couple who came to see me after attending someone else's wedding. They found it so "normal" that they too want to get married. In both cases, a faith based discussion was initiated by both parties but only after they'd heard Good News at the respective services.
Christianity exists not to make bad people nice but to bring the lost to life. I don't see "intentional" delivering that.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
leo: I sort of agree - we are solely for worship.
I don't agree with this either.
quote:
Nick Tamen: But what about the whole "go into all the world and preach the Gospel" directive?
I ignore that directive.
quote:
Nick Tamen: Or feeding the hungry, visiting the sick, clothing the naked, etc.?
I'm not sure whether this counts as evangelisation.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
leo: I sort of agree - we are solely for worship.
I don't agree with this either.
quote:
Nick Tamen: But what about the whole "go into all the world and preach the Gospel" directive?
I ignore that directive.
quote:
Nick Tamen: Or feeding the hungry, visiting the sick, clothing the naked, etc.?
I'm not sure whether this counts as evangelisation.
So what do you understand to be at the heart of what churches are all about?
My view is admittedly very expansive: that the church is to be the Body of Christ in the world. That includes proclaiming the Gospel, which to me is not at all the same as telling people to repent or burn for eternity. It includes feeding the hungry, clothing the naked and proclaiming release from anything the binds or holds a person captive. It means making Jesus present in the flesh. To me, that is the church's mission (literally, what the church is sent into the world to do), and it is for the church a life of sacrificial worship.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
That's nice dear.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
I too have concerns about the ways in which we might evangelise. I wouldn't start up a conversation about Jesus, Christianity, Church, the Bible, etc and although I would be ready to talk about them it seems that people outside of the faith don't want to know. If anything, they seem to want to challenge and put down what they think my beliefs are, but check themselves rather than think they might upset me.
For too long, we have been silent. Therefore many people really don't know anything about Jesus or the Christian Faith at all, and urban myths become their truths. I heard someone say today 'we know a lot more so we don't need faith in our lives as much now'. Someone else posted a humanist quote on Facebook today which said in effect that observation and reason have no place in religion.
If we don't learn how to tell people the truth about our religion and to talk about Jesus as well as putting his teaching into practice, they will continue to be led astray by the lies.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I don't believe that mission should be at the heart of what churches are all about.
I sort of agree - we are solely for worship.
What are the greatest commandments? And, do they not apply to churches as much as to individual Christians?
Worship is love of God, with all our heart, mind, soul and strength.
Mission is love of our neighbours.
Christian life, individual or corporate, is dead if either of those is missing.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Don't. Please. Unless it is something like the Rennaissance choir and organ concert we are planning on this Sunday afternoon. Now that's evangelism. Such leads me by the soul to God. The evangello stuff leads me to a dark dark place of spiritual refridgeration.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
I suppose if you're identified as a christian – or maybe as a churchgoer – and a listener, and you are seen doing community helpful things, then there is an opening for people to engage in other than superficial chat if they want to.
For many years I was the New Zealand contact for the Letter from Taizé, (now on-line, one posted from France). I was impressed by the stories of brothers who lived in third world situations and simply went on doing whatever the people around them needed – sharing food, engaging with the kids, whatever – and worshiping three times a day, when some neighbours would come along. Everyone welcome.
A suburban 21st century congregation can't adopt that exact pattern, but there might be something there for us to think about – yes, our congregation is doing some deep thinking about our mission.
My other congregation began a free meal in their small town, where the die-hards said 'There aren't any poor people here'. It's still successful, and not just for the many poor but for the lonely. It doesn't take from church funds, as local people, gardeners, supermarkets give what is needed. But I hear that the congregation was talking about not delivering meals, thus leaving out those who genuinely can't come but really need help. It's hard to convince the traditional churchgoers.
(Tangent alert)
A family legend has it that my elderly unmarried aunt, who'd spent maybe half a century working in the community and the church, teaching Sunday School etc, answered the door to a pimply youth (that's how I heard it) whose opening was 'I wonder if you've ever thought about Jesus?' History did not record her answer, but I bet it was a kindly one.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Don't. Please. Unless it is something like the Rennaissance choir and organ concert we are planning on this Sunday afternoon. Now that's evangelism. Such leads me by the soul to God.
How, precisely?
And does any choir, piece of music day of the week, or venue qualify as evangelism?
Why/why not?
I somehow can't see the Gospel having reached us today if all anyone did following Christ's resurrection was compose organ pieces.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
I suppose if you're identified as a christian – or maybe as a churchgoer – and a listener, and you are seen doing community helpful things, then there is an opening for people to engage in other than superficial chat if they want to.
For many years I was the New Zealand contact for the Letter from Taizé, (now on-line, one posted from France). I was impressed by the stories of brothers who lived in third world situations and simply went on doing whatever the people around them needed – sharing food, engaging with the kids, whatever – and worshiping three times a day, when some neighbours would come along. Everyone welcome.
A suburban 21st century congregation can't adopt that exact pattern, but there might be something there for us to think about – yes, our congregation is doing some deep thinking about our mission.
My other congregation began a free meal in their small town, where the die-hards said 'There aren't any poor people here'. It's still successful, and not just for the many poor but for the lonely. It doesn't take from church funds, as local people, gardeners, supermarkets give what is needed. But I hear that the congregation was talking about not delivering meals, thus leaving out those who genuinely can't come but really need help. It's hard to convince the traditional churchgoers.
(Tangent alert)
A family legend has it that my elderly unmarried aunt, who'd spent maybe half a century working in the community and the church, teaching Sunday School etc, answered the door to a pimply youth (that's how I heard it) whose opening was 'I wonder if you've ever thought about Jesus?' History did not record her answer, but I bet it was a kindly one.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
leo: I sort of agree - we are solely for worship.
I don't agree with this either.
quote:
Nick Tamen: But what about the whole "go into all the world and preach the Gospel" directive?
I ignore that directive.
quote:
Nick Tamen: Or feeding the hungry, visiting the sick, clothing the naked, etc.?
I'm not sure whether this counts as evangelisation.
What do you believe? How is that belief reflected in the way you live?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
Thinking about my Muslim neighbours and colleagues, who I grow increasingly fond of, any organised attempt by them to change me or 'convert' me would be very unwelcome. And completely out of character, I'm happy to say.
One recently said he was looking forward to Ramadan, which he described as a sort of detoxing. He is already fasting for parts of days in preparation for the long hours this June. It seemed an entirely natural chat where he was reporting something he has learned about his religion and himself (he was also explaining why he was flagging a bit in the strenuous gardening task we were doing together.
Another has become the sort of friend with whom I can have honest and personal conversations about our feelings about our own faiths.
If they had meetings at the masjid (mosque - one explained why he prefers masjid) about impacting colleagues and neighbours, and if I came to suspect that our conversations or their choice of words were not entirely natural, if I detected a Muslim motive, that would be a permanent cloud over our friendships.
When you think about it, there is an extraordinary amount of duplicity in much that people call evangelism.
[ 13. May 2016, 07:46: Message edited by: hatless ]
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I agree, but it's hard to walk away from the new testament without the idea of there being a message, with specific content, that followers of Jesus have a responsibility to communicate. Excise that imperative and I'm not sure what's left.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by Eutychus quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so... quote:
Don't. Please. Unless it is something like the Rennaissance choir and organ concert we are planning on this Sunday afternoon. Now that's evangelism. Such leads me by the soul to God.
How, precisely?
And does any choir, piece of music day of the week, or venue qualify as evangelism?
Why/why not?
I somehow can't see the Gospel having reached us today if all anyone did following Christ's resurrection was compose organ pieces.
To take your questions in order:
1. If you accept that the musical genius of some people is a gift from God, then you must also accept that the fruits of that - the compositions - are inspired by God and that exposing people to them through performance is to show people a work inspired by the Almighty.
2. Any choir? Possibly not but those happy groups which manage to produce faultless performances/ interpretations are surely fleshing-out the God inspired composition(s) and, therefore, shewing the hand of God. The day of the week doesn't enter into it; however, the venue can if it is somewhere that has been divinely inspired or shows in visible form the same God-given talent as the music - the Sistine Chapel comes to mind.
3. You may not think the Gospel has reached people through the medium of organ composition but I can assure you that there are people who find (for them) confirmation of the existence of the Almighty through listening to the genius of J S Bach or Marcel Dupre. While not wishing to blow my own trumpet, at my own church, the work of the choir has been quoted by several people as being what first attracted them to come to our services, and not all were already church-going people.
Of course, with the arts (aural, oral and visual) there is always the thorny issue of subjectivity, but just because I don't happen to like some worship songs doesn't mean that I don't think the Almighty didn't inspire at least some of them.
What riles some of us is that we're told that all contemporary worship songs are inspired while being assured by the same people that the work of other composers of a bygone age is worthless or not inspired. I kid you not, I've been assured, with great earnestness, that a Mozart mass setting is less inspiring than a Graham Kendrick song because "Mozart didn't mean it when he was writing it, he only wrote it for a patron." While taste is subjective, surely it has to be accepted that at least some individuals are uniquely gifted.
Of course, after that you rapidly descend into the nature/nurture debate...
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
1. If you accept that the musical genius of some people is a gift from God, then you must also accept that the fruits of that - the compositions - are inspired by God and that exposing people to them through performance is to show people a work inspired by the Almighty.
I don't agree with "inspired by God". I think a case can be made for music reflecting the image of God, but that's not the same as a particular work being "inspired". I find lots of music of all genres, including explicitly non-Christian music, stirs me and may draw me God-wards, but I don't think it's inspired in the sense of God-breathed.
quote:
3. You may not think the Gospel has reached people through the medium of organ composition but I can assure you that there are people who find (for them) confirmation of the existence of the Almighty through listening to the genius of J S Bach or Marcel Dupre
I have nothing against music. I play and listen to everything from classical music through to and including the Sex Pistols via Wintergatan (which I just can't stop listening to right now).
This thread is not about religious music or worship styles; it's about evangelism. By definition, that means there has to be some propositional content; some Good News. So no, I don't think the Gospel reaches people through organ music alone.
The Gospel may indeed be about our hearts being strangely warmed, but it's also about knowing why that is. The way Luke tells it, the Holy Spirit didn't descend on Cornelius' household until Peter had got a bare minimum of the Good News out.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
We're getting into the thorny territory of 'inspiration'/'expiration' here ...
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
I don't have any problem with the idea of God 'working' in and through organ recitals, choirs, impressive landscapes, even the quotidian things we all do each and every day.
If there's anything I've learned and taken from the Orthodox it's that 'God is everywhere present and filleth all things.'
I'm not saying there doesn't have to be a propositional dimension but arguably the more Protestant and particularly evangelical traditions have over-dosed on the idea of a Gospel message - a set of propositional truths that they have to present to everybody on each and every occasion otherwise they're not doing their job properly ...
Properly understood, I submit that the Gospel is a Person - rather than a message as such - a Person who embodied/embodies that message in a supreme form - Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
That's not to say that there isn't room for the didactic or the apologetic, the kind of flip-board presentations Eutychus has made in the past.
Nor is it to suggest that all we have to do is lay on sublime performances of choral music by Tallis, Byrd and Bach and bingo, we've done the job ...
We can't reduce any of these things to snappy sound-bites and 'Four Spiritual Laws' and so on.
Heck, I used to go out into Students' Unions with Campus Crusade tracts and so on and so forth. The best conversations I had came when I put the tracts to one side and started to relate to people 'normally' and in a less 'forced' - and as hatless says, less duplicitous way.
Now, I don't regard holding a choral concert, a brass-band or wind orchestra gig, an amateur choir performance or a classical piano recital in a church building as 'evangelism' in a formal sense ... but I don't consider it unimportant either. I see it as a way of building a sense of community, of engaging with people in different ways and at all sorts of levels and creating a kind of environment/milieu where further contact and perhaps discussions can take place.
Some forms of pre-evangelism are necessary to provide a platform for evangelism. The key, though, as hatless has identified is to be intentional (sorry about the 'al' word ExclamationMark) without being deceitful or duplicitous. I could tell stories about the latter that would make your hair stand on end - but I'll leave those to one side.
It doesn't do to be too reductionist about any of these things, they all play a part.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Over-systematisation, duplicity, and sales techniques are all bad. So is trashing everything that isn't propositional.
But at some point, content is still vital.
If there's no content, it's not spreading the Gospel, whatever else it is.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
Propositional content? That sounds so dry and dead.
The Good News or evangel always seems to come wrapped in a person. Jesus didn't write anything, and because we have varying reports of the things he said and did, his actual words can't be confidently reconstructed and in any case, what we have and respond to are stories of his interactions with people. It's to the space between that we are directed.
Jesus doesn't drill his disciples in techniques or tactics, he sends them out to interact at some personal risk. It is to be at least as much an adventure for those sent as for those they are sent to.
Perhaps we should regard the Good News not as something we know and can take with us and dole out along the way, but as something wholly divine and as impossible to possess as manna, which we must find for ourselves as we go, pointing it out to others as we do so.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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