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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Are we abandoning our youth?
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
OK, this is another if those "I had a thought and wanted to discuss it with others" threads.
A Facebook post reminded me that when I was a teenager and a Christian, in our town there were months YFC rallies, where all sorts of young people could get together, have teaching and insights that were relevant, and usually some music that was relevant.
I remember that we would occasionally have band play at school organised by the CU. It SEEMED that here were all sorts of places to be a Christian with others, and in an environment far more contemporary than church was. I mean, if you remember Ishmael in his punk era, that was quite something.
But what do we do now? There seems to be much less opportunity (IME, having worked with young peoples groups) to meet with others, and to meet others and to hear something that is presented in a relevant way.
Now I am NOT suggesting that we return to YFC rallies - they were very much of their time. I am not just being nostalgic ans wishing we could continue doing what was relevant when I was young. I am wanting to know if we have lost the sense of a corporate faith, of presenting and supporting Christians in their teens appropriately?
It seems that the usual answer is take them away to New Wine, Spring Harvest or Greenbelt. But that is not the same, because it is annual and national, not regular and local.
Or maybe I am wrong and missing something? Which I hope I am.
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
There seems to be quite a lot of fresh expressions stuff going on like meetings in coffee shops and hipster events of church in a condemned warehouse while sipping Turkish apple tea and eating Mr Kiplings French Fancies with a pastry fork. Then there are the blogs, blog broadcasts and vlogs and and the picnics in parks with the Bible as the main dish of the day. It all seems to me to be a little clandestine in a way, arranged through social media for those in the know. It's a very different world from what I remember, but then that's da youf of today for ya.
On saying that, all of the above seems aimed at mobile young men and women of means and in employment. There seems to be precious little for the young teenagers. I don't know what its like where you are, but here both insurance and increased legislation borrowed from a Kafka novel has well and truly killed the church's ability to do pretty much anything apart from those large paid events.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
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Jemima the 9th
Shipmate
# 15106
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Posted
I'm not sure what's available to local teenagers, but I think there are CUs in most secondary schools, as well as events like a county-wide Christian camp (though that's similar to NW I suppose in terms of only being once a year).
Our own church has a biggish Pathfinder group (about 25 11-15 year olds) and a biggish 15-19 group, and they all meet weekly.
It is different from what I did as a teenager - weekly joint CU with the grammar school, fortnightly Bible study, regular praise meetings at the local Elim - and yet I think there were only a few of us who did that.
So I don't know how different things are for yer average child who wasn't as involved as I was.
And, burned out cynic that I am ![[Biased]](wink.gif) I also wonder if any evolution away from regular biggish events is a bad thing, given how much emotional manipulation and bad practice I think I saw along the way.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
I don't know anything about Youth for Christ, (except that I've googled it and it still exists) but on a congregational level Christian youth work is frequently struggling (as is children's work) outside of the most favoured locations and churches. It requires highly trained and often paid leaders, and most churches just couldn't afford to make the investment required. In many churches something would have to be sacrificed to create a youth-friendly environment.
The solution in some areas might be ecumenical youth activities.
[ 28. May 2016, 22:15: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
You have to be careful with youth rallies now, as under 18s are much more under responsibility of their parents. Resulting in fewer young people getting involved and fewer leaders willing to take responsibility.
For example, every time our choir wants to take an under 18 to the cathedral, their parent has to sign a permission form, and a named adult has to be responsible for accompanying them. We used to get large numbers of young people at the cathedral for these events, now there are only a handful.
It is quite understandable that checks have to be made, given recent high profile abuse cases, but youth work used to thrive on spontaneity and young people making decisions for themselves, which is not really possible now.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I find it hard to believe that most secondary schools have a CU. Maybe that's a regional thing?
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
I guess it will depend a lot area to area, but two thoughts. One, that a lot of churches seem to struggle full stop to attract/retain youth, perhaps more so than when we were youth, so the apparent market is smaller, as it were. Although locally para-church groups like Young Life seem to do OK.
Two, from personal experience, I was involved in an ecumenical monthly "for anyone, from anywhere" event for youngsters a few years back. After a brilliant start it soon became really hard to get most of the churches along, even when there kids wanted to come. No aggro, no big theological punch-up, just no willingness to actually muck in other than when their own folk were speaking. Hugely disheartening.
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
Do you think, too, that some churches (especially those with only small numbers of young folk) were worried of losing them to other churches?
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Do you think, too, that some churches (especially those with only small numbers of young folk) were worried of losing them to other churches?
Nah. I think it's just an attitude of "boring hymns and hard pews were good enough for us in the 1950s when we were young so if they're not good enough for youth now it's their fault and so plplplplpl".
Enough people have said as much on these boards over the years.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
fwiw, the latest research suggests that, while the whiz-bang high-energy youth programs do get a good draw, they aren't particularly effective in creating "sticky faith"-- i.e. faith (or at least church-going) which lasts into young adulthood. Even mission trips were not particularly well correlated with sticky faith. The research here anyway suggests that integrating youth fully into the life of the congregation-- in leadership, in corporate worship, small groups, etc. in the same way you do adults is the most effective in creating that "stickiness". Which is good news for smaller churches, which tend to lean that way naturally.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
There was a big shake-up in Youth for Christ about five years ago, at least locally. The local workers were laid off and, after checking, there isn't much around now. Those workers were partially funded by local churches and partly by the charity. All I can find now is a church supported worker some distance away.
I used to work alongside one of their workers on various voluntarily-run projects and was in contact with the new area coordinator when he was newly appointed. The youth worker is still working in the area, but is no longer part of Youth for Christ.
When she was employed by Youth for Christ, she was on a part-time contract, and her role involved running Christian Union type activities in the local schools - assemblies, lunch time clubs, alpha courses. I am pretty sure those activities were continued by the specialist RE teacher at the local secondary school, when that was a priority in schools. However, Gove's changes in the National Curriculum and the emphasis on the EBacc or Progress 8 in schools mean that there is no requirement to have a specialist RE teacher now.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Karl - I think it has moved on. Now it is "1970s MoR pop was good enough for us, and nobody else does it so we must be 'counter-cultural' so enjoy it. Because that is what Christianity is about. Being out of date."
I did say, I am not after doing what was done, I know that is from the past (TBH, I would probably have huge problems with them today anyway). I just wonder what has replaced them.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
[There's] an attitude of "boring hymns and hard pews were good enough for us in the 1950s when we were young so if they're not good enough for youth now it's their fault and so plplplplpl".
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Karl - I think it has moved on. Now it is "1970s MoR pop was good enough for us, and nobody else does it so we must be 'counter-cultural' so enjoy it. Because that is what Christianity is about. Being out of date."
TBH, there are still many churches around that prefer 'boring hymns and hard pews', but the number of young people attending such churches has been in steep decline for such a long time that their underrepresentation no longer arouses much comment or obvious concern. It almost seems like a natural state of affairs.
Some churches are hoping that people will 'return' to the church in middle age or later. But you can only return to something if you've already had it, and only a small minority of tomorrow's middle aged and elderly will have a background in the church or a knowledge of Christianity.
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Integrating youth fully into the life of the congregation-- in leadership, in corporate worship, small groups, etc. in the same way you do adults is the most effective in creating that "stickiness". Which is good news for smaller churches, which tend to lean that way naturally.
Unfortunately, 'small' in the British context generally means churches of about 50 members or less, and many of these are likely to struggle to integrate young people.
Any significant and successful youth focus in a small church is likely to change the character of the church significantly, which the congregation has to be prepared for. I know a Baptist church where this has happened. It's a wonderful example of hard won success, but the pastor admits that when 25% of your congregation are in their teens or twenties, in a fairly deprived area, it has financial implications.
More generally, the researcher Peter Brierley has found that in Britain the larger the church, the higher the proportion of young people present. This doesn't respond to your concern about creating a 'sticky faith', which is valid, but it does show that small churches have a more urgent problem on their hands in simply trying to attract young people.
[ 29. May 2016, 11:09: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
I may sound like a broken record, but my particular concern about this returns to the "nole me tangere" atmosphere in which we live. Spreading faith by contact does not work if explicit consent is required first, because there is no incentive to consent to something one does not understand.
All I can think of is that we have to do what we can, be as authentically loving as we possibly can to all, including young people, and take advantage as our culture is healed of its anxious aseptic obsessions.
[ 29. May 2016, 12:19: Message edited by: ThunderBunk ]
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
When I was growing up our church had youth groups covering 9-14/15 and 14/15-22: the cross-over in the middle was so that groups of friends weren't arbitrarily split and to allow that some people matured faster than others, and similarly the upper age limit was not usually reached except in the case of people returning from university during the vacs and having friends at the youth club. Juniors met in the week and seniors on a Sunday evening.
Although church based the youth clubs were not "X church youth club" branded - rather they were junior and senior Christian Youth Group, because people who attended the CofE church had friends who were RC, Presbyterian, etc, so membership was open to all young people who were regular churchgoers at their local denomination.
Meeting weekly, the emphasis was on fun activities rather than bible study, but there was one celebration of the eucharist a month led by the particular youth group to which all regular members of the congregation were invited, and that decision was made so that it didn't feel that 'the youth' were being shut inside a small enclave but rather were seen and valued as part of the mainstream of parish life.
The junior group went away twice a year for a weekend in a hostel near the river Wye and some serious canoe or kayak tuition. The seniors went away for a week every summer - often to a house run by Church in Wales nuns near the glorious beaches of Pembrokeshire - which had days filled with the usual beach activities but every morning there was communion with the sisters, and every evening there was a discussion group followed by Compline.
IME one of the things that has put a stop to youth groups in smaller communities is simple numbers, particularly if membership is restricted to just one church, and also that it seems the modern child no longer walks anywhere or they have a weekend job.
In my current church we are having a week away with our junior choristers this year, to which other siblings are invited, staying in a youth hostel, and we'll see how that goes. We don't have a youth group at present but one may arise after this.
So, are we abandoning our youth? No, but families are not coming to church in sufficient to make groups viable and there is a dearth of people prepared to run things like a weekly youth group. IMO a light touch is a better approach than just having a study & worship meeting - all attempts to form the latter being met with derision on the part of not just the children of the right age but also their parents.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I see.
I suppose the South West is to be expected, as the churches are relatively strong there compared with everywhere else.
Yorkshire is apparently among the regions with the lowest levels of churchgoing in the UK, according to the Tearfund Report on Churchgoing. Perhaps there's some evangelistic intent in CU's work there?
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
A Facebook post reminded me that when I was a teenager and a Christian, in our town there were months YFC rallies, where all sorts of young people could get together, have teaching and insights that were relevant, and usually some music that was relevant.
I am unaware of any youth programs in the churches of my youth other than Sunday school for the kids.
As to sticky faith, I am under the impression the youth whose experience of church is a separate service with separate music and behavior are not going to return as adults to a foreign to them style of church, so in having separate youth church we are changing what church will be like in 15 or 20 years if we want the kids to come back. Which is OK if change of style is done on purpose, but from what I've seen, people assume today's youth will "return to church" of a style that is not church to them.
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
As to sticky faith, I am under the impression the youth whose experience of church is a separate service with separate music and behavior are not going to return as adults to a foreign to them style of church, so in having separate youth church we are changing what church will be like in 15 or 20 years if we want the kids to come back. Which is OK if change of style is done on purpose, but from what I've seen, people assume today's youth will "return to church" of a style that is not church to them.
Precisely. Incidentally, it was at a YFC rally that I made my Christian commitment (Which was a crucial time for me). Among other things it was because it was an approach to faith relevant for me, away from the older church people. It was presenting Christianity as something that was appropriate.
What worriers me is that nearly 40 years later, the church is still as irrelevant to most youth. It has not really moved on even to the stage those events were at, never mind 40 years on.
I was reading today that more people in the UK claim to have no faith than claim to be Christian. I suspect, for many of these, if they did seek solace or a return to faith, they do not have such a clear connection with Christianity as a place to return to.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Another thing* that changed things in the UK, according to Mission-Shaped Children (2006) is the increasing secularisation of society.
The discussion points out that compared to the situation in the 1950s when 70% of 10 year olds were not in Sunday School, those youngsters weren't missing Christian influences entirely:
quote:
Daily Christian assemblies and RE were still part of every child's education ... and the uniformed organizations, choirs and other church activities reached large numbers of youngsters. Up until that time, most adults could say the Lord's Prayer and sing a few Christmas carols and well-known hymns at wedding and funerals.
quote:
Those adults who were ten years old in 1950, whether churched or not, had brought up their children in the 1970s when religion in school and children's organizations was actively discouraged, and the traditional Sunday school had become tired and lacklustre. Children who grew up in a culture that had marginalized religion in the 1970s are the parents of today's children, and have, for the most part, little if any experience of the basic knowledge that underpins the Christian faith to pass on to their children.
This second chapter discussing Nurturing Christian children goes on to discuss how that the requirements for teaching RE and assemblies were emphasised in different Education Acts.
Uniformed groups are less engaged - the Girl Guiding movement changed their promise in 2013 from "love my God" to "be true to myself and develop my beliefs" and it's a nightmare to get the girls to turn out for a Sunday parade. We'll get 25% turn out at most. (I've turned up for no-one to arrive so have gone home and we've taken ourselves off for a planning meeting rather than hang around for a dire all-age service.)
* the first chapter lists 14 different subheadings to consider, 12 of them influences changing children's engagement:
- recent social trends;
- employment changes;
- mobility;
- divorce and changes in family life;
- free time;
- a fragmented society
- consumer culture and the effect on children;
- childhood poverty;
- legislation - the Children Act;
- Education;
- post-Christendom and the loss of a cultural heritage;
- care arrangements for children
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I don't think an individual church need worry too much if they don't have a large number of young people - you need to look at the area as a whole. If there is one church in the area with a very successful youth programme, it might be better for all the local churches to support that, rather than to struggle to maintain lots of small groups.
Perhaps the other churches have different strengths, which can be encouraged.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Do you think, too, that some churches (especially those with only small numbers of young folk) were worried of losing them to other churches?
I don't think so - at the time there was quite a good ecumenical spirit in the town. I'm not so sure now, partly because I'm less involved in such things so don't get to see it first hand.
I was only peripherally involved, but my personal take was that there was an element of "not invented here" (one local church seems excellent at doing the ecumenical thing when they're driving and it's all under their banner, but less so when there's no defined banner and/or another church is doing the heavy lifting), coupled with perhaps not quite enough getting-round-the-patch from the leaders to really get people to buy-in long term. There was a small element of "If we build it they will come", although largely it was just a matter of time and energy to bang heads against walls for a while.
It lasted a couple of years, although ultimately ended up only serving a couple of churches, rather than the four or five it could have done.
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
The thing is, the style and presentation of 1970s/80s YFC type rallies is as anachronistic to today's yoof as hard pews and old hymns.
Talk to my kids and they'll lose no time in telling you how unspeakably naff they found the YFC events they attended in their early teens.
They absolutely hated them. They were fine with Scripture Union cross-church events when they were about 9 or 10 but when after they were about 11 they found anything that smacked of enthusiastic religion intensely embarrassing.
Both girls retain some respect for the Christian faith but they've never really engaged with it since they were very young.
I don't think it's just my been round the block cynicism rubbing off on them ... I really do think that the kind of high-octane get down wiv da kids approach is seriously, seriously flawed.
The trouble is, I don't know what we replace it with ... and neither, I suspect, does anyone else ... which is why there is such a vacuum.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I think we make a mistake if we assume that all youth like the "high octane" events that Gamaliel id describing. Certainly my son, when a teenager, went along for a bit, but then opted out saying they were too noisy.
Perhaps the answer lies more down the Fresh Expressions route of encouraging a more contemplative spirituality? Obviously there does need to be some clear Biblical "input" or teaching as well, otherwise the whole thing is too vague. Another suggestion is that one should talk about the faith from the ground up rather than the top down - that is, not beginning with thoughts about God but a discussion of the real issues faced by young people.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
A Facebook post reminded me that when I was a teenager and a Christian, in our town there were months YFC rallies, where all sorts of young people could get together, have teaching and insights that were relevant, and usually some music that was relevant.
I am unaware of any youth programs in the churches of my youth other than Sunday school for the kids.
As to sticky faith, I am under the impression the youth whose experience of church is a separate service with separate music and behavior are not going to return as adults to a foreign to them style of church, so in having separate youth church we are changing what church will be like in 15 or 20 years if we want the kids to come back. Which is OK if change of style is done on purpose, but from what I've seen, people assume today's youth will "return to church" of a style that is not church to them.
That's not what the sticky faith research is showing. The sticky faith research is showing that it is the separate service itself that is the problem. The research shows that the music style itself is irrelevant to the "stickiness" of the faith (although it may be relevant in the short term attraction). What is relevant to "stickiness" is whether youth are fully integrated into the larger corporate life of the church. "Silo-ed" youth programs don't aid "stickiness"-- integrating youth into your worship team (whether that's a praise band or a traditional choir), ministry teams, leadership (Trustees/elders, etc) in a real and not token way. Developing cross-generational friendships. Maintaining contact when they go off to college/career.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
One of the things I would have loved to have set up as a part of youth work is a quarterly youth-led service with support in the experimental evening time slot*. It would have been a way of introducing young people to how services work and including them in the running of the church in addition to being acolytes, readers and choristers and of using Roots more experimentally. But the same group who remove children from the church for their youth work weren't prepared to work with us. They wanted the young people to be part of the monthly lay-led all-age services as written by the adults leading them. That doesn't work in a way where they youngsters learn about writing the service, but being given set piece parts.
That church had a monthly Choral Evensong, talks, compline, Evening Prayer, monthly Labyrinth prayer and a roughly quarterly Taize service in that evening slot alongside annual services such as the Bereavement Service in the run up to Christmas and Stations of the Cross on Palm Sunday (while I was still putting it together). It was a way to ensure that there was something on at that time every week, so when choral evensong moved for some reason, the church wasn't deserted and empty.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
I was a delegate at the URC General Assembly in 2012, when it was recognised that “there is an issue within the United Reformed Church when people reach the age of 26 and leave FURY [the denomination’s Youth Fellowship]. Some people find little support in their local church and many drift away from any engagement in the United Reformed Church”.
Assembly heard that “many people say that FURY has become their church, whilst some go as far as admitting that without FURY, they would no longer be a Christian. This is possibly due to the fact that, unlike in “traditional church”, in FURY people don’t feel they have to behave in a particular manner; they can be themselves”.
There were “real concerns about the integration of young people aged 20 to 40 during the transition period after leaving FURY” and it was suggested not only that “young people themselves must be encouraged to become more actively involved in their local church, but the churches themselves should also be forthcoming to work towards this integration. It was noted that “the experience of some young adults is that they are not given responsibility or fully valued within their local church”.
Inevitably the discussion was not fruitful: the "adults" could not recognise the culture-clash between younger people and the Church, while the young folk were (unsurprisingly) less than tolerant of "church culture", feeling that they had already made too many concessions in order to fit in. No easy answers here!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
They wanted the young people to be part of the monthly lay-led all-age services as written by the adults leading them. That doesn't work in a way where they youngsters learn about writing the service, but being given set piece parts.
I have come across the same issue: it shows, I suppose, a lack of trust by those organising the service, rather than a desire to genuinely listen to the young people.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
One of the things I would have loved to have set up as a part of youth work is a quarterly youth-led service with support in the experimental evening time slot*. It would have been a way of introducing young people to how services work and including them in the running of the church in addition to being acolytes, readers and choristers and of using Roots more experimentally. But the same group who remove children from the church for their youth work weren't prepared to work with us. They wanted the young people to be part of the monthly lay-led all-age services as written by the adults leading them. That doesn't work in a way where they youngsters learn about writing the service, but being given set piece parts.
Well, honestly, the latter group is closer to what the sticky research suggests is helpful long-term than giving them a few one-off "youth services". Of course, even better would be if they were given a real voice in writing the services, but having regular involvement in an ongoing service that is central to the life of the church is definitely preferable to the one-off "silo-ed" approach.
But again, that's talking long-term. The problem is churches like the immediate short-term gain. In the short-term, you're going to see more youth come out for the fun, hip, whiz-bang program. But the long-term "sticky" faith is built on relationships and feeling an important part of a faith community.
As part of the class I teach with first-year univ students, I send them on a church visit (within a particular academic assignment). Sometimes they end up (for a variety of reasons) visiting some tiny, dying church filled with elderly people 40 or 50 years their senior and not a single congregant under 50. I will cringe when I hear how they latched on to these young 18 & 19 year olds like bloodsucking leaches, often inappropriately trying to bribe them with donuts and rope them into leadership roles based on a 5 minute conversation.
But... quite often, my students will respond to these lame and inappropriate requests positively. They come back. They get involved. They teach Sunday School. They sing traditional old-school hymns in the choir where they are the only non-gray haired head (and usually the only person of color). It's weird-- but I think speaks to the truth that young people really really do want to be involved and feel needed and a vital part of something bigger than themselves, not just part of a mosh pit at a rave.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I was thinking more of the regular evening services as a way to reassure the adults that the young people could lead services and build their confidence, so that they could then lead the main service, or at least sections.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I was thinking more of the regular evening services as a way to reassure the adults that the young people could lead services and build their confidence, so that they could then lead the main service, or at least sections.
Yeah, that makes sense. The goal should be to integrate them into the main service in the same exact ways that you would any other adult member of the church, not in a segregated group or on a segregated "youth Sunday" but in a fully inter-generational way. As you imply, it's the adults you need to convince that that's do-able, not the youth.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The thing is, the style and presentation of 1970s/80s YFC type rallies is as anachronistic to today's yoof as hard pews and old hymns.
Talk to my kids and they'll lose no time in telling you how unspeakably naff they found the YFC events they attended in their early teens.
They absolutely hated them. They were fine with Scripture Union cross-church events when they were about 9 or 10 but when after they were about 11 they found anything that smacked of enthusiastic religion intensely embarrassing.
Absolutely. But where are the places that they can be engaged with the gospel that is not embarrassing? Where is the places that they can meet with other young people?
I think the problem with leaving it to the one church in town that can support youth work is that this may not be the right environment for many. It is likely to be (as for us) the Vineyard church or someone similar, and if you have a problem with their theology, as I do, this is not ideal. How do we engage them with our church theology? How do we engage with them in a way that may engage them with normal church? In a way that means they may return later?
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Perhaps they just need to feel ownership. I'm not going to pretend that I have an (or 'the') answer, but I do believe that the church could do itself a huge favour simply by being confident in what it is and what it has to proclaim. A lot of the time we seem to project an image of church at events that falls into the stable of self parody or a chasing after the next alpha. What most people see - and what most teenagers see - is a parody of church that smacks of weakness, embarrassment and a severe crisis of identity.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
The goal should be to integrate them into the main service in the same exact ways that you would any other adult member of the church, not in a segregated group or on a segregated "youth Sunday" but in a fully inter-generational way. As you imply, it's the adults you need to convince that that's do-able, not the youth.
Unless older church members can really catch the vision of young people leading and consequently changing how church is done then avoiding segregation is impossible. And where are the church leaders who can really inspire such a vision?
A significant problem in Britain is that the average age of churchgoers, especially in the mainstream denominations, and outside London, is so high that it's very hard to see how the cultural gap can be bridged with regards to young Christians, or with regard to evangelism among young non-Christians. Here are some sobering figures:
-The average age of CofE worshippers was apparently 61 in 2010, according to one report; the average age in the population at large was 48.
-In 2011 over 50% of Methodists in the UK were 66-80 years old. 7% of the Connexion were between 20-40 years old.
-Peter Brierley calculated in 2005 that, in England, 57% of all churchgoers in their twenties were worshipping in London, which means that the other 43% were scattered thinly across the rest of the country.
- Again in 2010, 39% of churches had no one under the age of 11 years, 49% had no one between 11 and 14 years, and 59% had no one between 14 years and 19 years. (See here.)
The figures are better for certain evangelical churches and BME congregations. The point, though, is that with the age gap such a widespread issue, with the resources and the training obviously lacking to tackle the problems at a congregational level, and with church leaders mostly unable or unwilling to convince their most committed people (i.e. the older ones) that serious changes are desirable, we're surely past the point at which very many churches here might reasonably be expected to successfully tackle the absence of children and young people. (And of course, the 'young people' may be the parents of the 'children' - both are missing.)
At this stage, in this country, I think highly focused church planting would have better results than trying to change the culture of vast numbers of ageing congregations. Older people would get involved with new projects on the explicit understanding that they were there to serve, to share wisdom and to step into the unknown, not to demand that things be done in a familiar way.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Then we're stuffed.
The only church in our town with a significant youth ministry is the evangelical Anglican parish (which is a tad Vineyard wannabe - at least at leadership level).
As Shroedinger's Cat observes, that's tough shit for anyone who doesn't buy into that form of spirituality or faux-theology.
I don't know what the answer is. The liberals are imploding. Give the evangelicals their due, they're getting things done. Shame I'd rather stick pins in my eyes than do what they do.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Then we're stuffed.
The only church in our town with a significant youth ministry is the evangelical Anglican parish (which is a tad Vineyard wannabe - at least at leadership level).
As Shroedinger's Cat observes, that's tough shit for anyone who doesn't buy into that form of spirituality or faux-theology.
I don't know what the answer is. The liberals are imploding. Give the evangelicals their due, they're getting things done. Shame I'd rather stick pins in my eyes than do what they do.
It's all part of a pattern, albeit one I can't see at all at the moment. Forms of practice, even ones which have sustained several generations, are falling away. I don't believe that the evangelical form is anything more than a slight variation on the things that are more conspicuously dying, and I think it will fall away as well.
It is not at all clear what will grow, but human beings remain human, and God remains God. Beyond that, I wouldn't like to say.
This is so much less like the recent upheaval on the high street than certain people seem to want to pretend.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, I can see that, Thunderbunk. Not sure what the answer is, though. Perhaps there isn't one.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I don't know what the answer is. The liberals are imploding. Give the evangelicals their due, they're getting things done. Shame I'd rather stick pins in my eyes than do what they do.
Yeah, but you have the 'benefit' of age and hindsight in drawing that conclusion.
Also, wasn't it ever thus ? I presume a lot of us went through some kind of 'evangelical' youth work - in fact that's the premise of the original post isn't it?
I imagine most of the people in the thread are not in the evangelical tradition - or on the edges - and so are less likely to be in churches that have active 'youth ministries'.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
As to sticky faith, I am under the impression the youth whose experience of church is a separate service with separate music and behavior are not going to return as adults to a foreign to them style of church, so in having separate youth church we are changing what church will be like in 15 or 20 years if we want the kids to come back. Which is OK if change of style is done on purpose,
The sticky faith research is showing that it is the separate service itself that is the problem. The research shows that the music style itself is irrelevant to the "stickiness" ... What is relevant to "stickiness" is whether youth are fully integrated into the larger corporate life of the church....
I chatted with the youth minister about my concern that post industrial west seems to be the only culture where ages don't mix. But we need each other, we learn from each other. I proposed activities youth and adult and elderly can all enjoy, such as sing-alongs, the easy to catch on old "camp songs" like swing low, when the saints go marching in, do lord etc. He said he has a fire pit great location for that sort of gathering.
Somehow we have developed a culture of people so segregated in narrow age bands people think they have nothing in common with someone just a few years different. That's unhealthy for us all.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Then we're stuffed.
The only church in our town with a significant youth ministry is the evangelical Anglican parish (which is a tad Vineyard wannabe - at least at leadership level).
As Shroedinger's [sic] Cat observes, that's tough shit for anyone who doesn't buy into that form of spirituality or faux-theology.
I don't know what the answer is. The liberals are imploding. Give the evangelicals their due, they're getting things done. Shame I'd rather stick pins in my eyes than do what they do.
We've GOT to do it with them. There is NO alternative. Which is infinitely more demanding of liberals than my trying to quietly subvert the Friday night Godslot for the hungry and house groups.
Put up or ...
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
...tough shit for anyone who doesn't buy into that form of spirituality or faux-theology.
Why faux?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Regarding my post above, church plants and youth work don't have to be evangelical. AFAIK Fresh Expressions are not presented as inevitably evangelical. In terms of worship style, I understand that some cell church set-ups are even liturgical.
But most non-evangelical churches simply can't afford to 'lose' committed, able-bodied members (lay or ordained) to transformational projects because such people are needed right where they are, keeping things going. They're usually expected to be focused on the needs of the majority of the people in front of them, i.e. the ageing adults.
IOW, the youth problem is actually an adult problem: there's a chronic labour shortage situation. Yet youth work requires not just anyone who's available, but the best people and the best resources, according to current thinking.
There are various ways of looking at solutions, but moderate Christians tend not to be entirely coherent about why they want more young people among them, so more theological reflection is required there, for a start. IME, if 'salvation' isn't the issue, then the reasons given are often rather self-serving (as the Methodist Revd. Martyn Atkins, a former President of Conference, has also noted). But really, who cares about that in the real world? Young people just want to be happy, they don't care about doing the church favours.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I was being slightly provocative, mdijon ... thinking about the old saying that the charismatic movement is 'a spirituality in search of a theology.'
I'm not saying there's no theology there. What theology there is, though, tends to derive from whatever tradition 'hosts' the charismatic dimension or inclination.
In the case of independent groups like the Vineyard they tend to pick and choose and draw on those aspects of traditional theology that 'fit' their world-view and approach. By and large, any theology they come up with themselves tends to be pretty dreck ...
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
@Chris Stiles, yes, I do have the dubious benefit of age and hindsight ...
I was always uncomfortable about aspects of the evangelical/charismatic thing but when I was into it I was very much into it ...
For whatever reason, it's never really 'grabbed' my kids and I'm wondering why that might be. Have things 'moved on' and YFC-style evangelicalism not keep pace?
I suspect Curiosity Killed's list has a lot to do with it.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
@Chris Stiles, yes, I do have the dubious benefit of age and hindsight ...
I was always uncomfortable about aspects of the evangelical/charismatic thing but when I was into it I was very much into it ...
Well, I was similar in some ways. Anyway, I was just trying to challenge the assumption that what we found unhelpful now may not be attractive to teens. In any case, even 'back then' not every teen found YFC that appealing.
quote:
For whatever reason, it's never really 'grabbed' my kids and I'm wondering why that might be. Have things 'moved on' and YFC-style evangelicalism not keep pace?
I suspect Curiosity Killed's list has a lot to do with it.
Well, as laid out above, YFC changed quite a bit in structure (and they were never that ubiquitous on a national level anyway). Similar initiatives found it harder and harder to get funding as time went on because differentiation in churches meant that it was increasingly difficult to keep every constituency on board. The larger churches were also much more likely to decide to pull funding and set up their own internal programs.
and increasing wealth/business nous/modern technology has made such things sustainable at smaller scales.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
In the case of independent groups like the Vineyard they tend to pick and choose and draw on those aspects of traditional theology that 'fit' their world-view and approach. By and large, any theology they come up with themselves tends to be pretty dreck ...
Any examples? (Not sure that dreck equals faux but anyway - I think this probably all comes down to you not agreeing with it rather than any specific allegation of fakeness.)
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
For more examples than I have time to list, mdijon. You've only got to read John Wimber's 'Power Evangelism' and 'Power Healing' to see what I mean.
In a nut-shell, there's an 'over-realised eschatology' there ... an impatience at the tension between the now and the not yet ...
Whatever the case, I was being pretty flippant with my throw-away 'faux-theology' comment.
I don't s'pose it's possible to have no theology or 'fake' theology - but I would suggest that it's possible to have ill-thought out and misconceived views posing as adequate theology.
Perhaps 'inadequate theology' would have been a better term to use - but again, that doesn't remove the subjective element in terms of my own reaction/views of these things.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
As to sticky faith, I am under the impression the youth whose experience of church is a separate service with separate music and behavior are not going to return as adults to a foreign to them style of church, so in having separate youth church we are changing what church will be like in 15 or 20 years if we want the kids to come back. Which is OK if change of style is done on purpose,
The sticky faith research is showing that it is the separate service itself that is the problem. The research shows that the music style itself is irrelevant to the "stickiness" ... What is relevant to "stickiness" is whether youth are fully integrated into the larger corporate life of the church....
I chatted with the youth minister about my concern that post industrial west seems to be the only culture where ages don't mix. But we need each other, we learn from each other. I proposed activities youth and adult and elderly can all enjoy, such as sing-alongs, the easy to catch on old "camp songs" like swing low, when the saints go marching in, do lord etc. He said he has a fire pit great location for that sort of gathering.
Somehow we have developed a culture of people so segregated in narrow age bands people think they have nothing in common with someone just a few years different. That's unhealthy for us all.
Absolutely. And the research shows that's what's really effective in terms of long-lasting faith. And they don't even need to be special programs like that-- really, just including and incorporating youth along side older adults in whatever you're already doing, but in real ways with real adult responsibilities and authority-- whether that's leading worship or teaching Sunday school or preparing the communion elements.
The problem is that it's long-term and small-scale, and requires "big picture" thinking rather than immediacy. In the short term, intergenerational programs like this aren't going to be a big draw. You won't get big numbers out for your usher training event like you will for a laser-tag/concert/amusement part event. So that makes it a lot harder to hype-- it's so much more exciting to report that "200 youth came out for our Summer Blow-Out Lollapalooza!" then it is to say "3 youth joined our ushering team".
But-- those 3 youth who were integrated into the life of the church and had an important role to play on Sundays are far more likely to still be in church10 years later. But they will likely have relocated through college or career so the church they're in probably isn't the one that included them. So the immediate, small-picture benefit of getting butts in our pews/ dollars in our offering plate/ or being able to hype a marketable draw isn't going to be experienced by the church that invested in him/her.
So youth ministry really requires a sacrificial, big-picture pov on the part of the church. It's not something that will pay back directly. It requires thinking of the big picture-- the big-C Church as a whole not our own individual community. It's very much missional thinking.
But again, the good news is that that IS something any church can do-- even a church of 20 elderly people (like the ones my students go to sometimes that I mentioned upthread). You don't need a big budget or big facility, you don't need a young hip youth pastor with skinny jeans and a soul patch. But you do need a missional vision and the willingness to take a risk and give youth real responsibility and authority. That requires trust.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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quantpole
Shipmate
# 8401
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Posted
Hello, it's time for my biannual post (not that that makes it any more perceptive).
For me it was pretty vital to have a group of a similar age at church. Most of us stayed at church through our teenage years which was a big thing - we made friends, socialised, supported each other. To some degree the church was more facilitating this rather than 'doing youthwork'. You need a critical mass of young people to stay involved for this to work though.
The other thing that helped me was going on Scripture Union holidays. They weren't rally type events, and weren't overly raucous. Just gave plenty of time for people to simply be with each other, and have time out to dwell on and discuss their faith. (I guess almost retreat like in a way). I went to spring harvest once when I was 15 and really didn't like it.
I think my church (pseudo-charismatic, 'open' evangelical Baptist) does OK for the teenagers. There's certainly quite a lot of them so I hope so. Guess I won't find out until my kids reach that age though.
Posts: 885 | From: Leeds | Registered: Aug 2004
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