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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Our Lady of Fifth Avenue
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Josiah Crawley
Apprentice
# 18481
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Posted
I'm not sure if this topic is for this board, sorry if I got this wrong, but here goes
St Thomas 5th Ave NY (Episcopal) has a statue of 'Our Lady of Fifth Avenue' which seems like a new devotion.
My question is do titles of Our Lady like this and devotion in this title need bishops to authorise or is it grassroots?
Posts: 17 | From: Hogglestock, England | Registered: Oct 2015
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
There is a process in the Roman Catholic Church for declaring certain Marian apparitions as "worthy of belief," but it normally begins at the grassroots. Lots of very ancient churches are simply dedicated to "Our Lady of [place]". And of course, in the Anglican Communion, who's to say?
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
Even in the RCC, not every title Our Lady of ____ refers to an apparition. Many of the well-known titles do, of course, but there are churches and religious houses called Our Lady of the Lakes, Mountains, Hills, Desert, Prairie, Heartlands, depending on their geographic surroundings. One probably must be careful when using secular names, such as Fifth Avenue, lest a consumeristic message be inferred, but any title of a church or other diocesan institution is approved by the local bishop. In the case of a religious house, it is done with permission of the superiors, as well.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Just disappointed it wasn't in Sydney diocese.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
My late great-grandmother was in her final years a devotee of Our Lady of Marmora (near Peterborough, Ontario). I remember visiting her in her retirement home and her suite was covered in copies of this artist's rendition. As I recall, the BVM's message mostly had to do with abortion and the impending apocalypse. One of my great-uncles co-edited the collected revelations said to have been given at the site. They apparently did not meet with the approval of the Archbishop of Kingston.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Our Lady of Aberdeen is a statue which was saved from destruction during the Reformation and smuggled to safety. It is now in Brussels.
St Mary's Cathedral in Aberdeen has a side chapel which contains a copy of the original statue; any time I have been in St Mary's, the statue has been surrounded by fresh flowers.
There is a church dedicated to our Lady of Aberdeen; it too has a copy of the original statue.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Just disappointed it wasn't in Sydney diocese.
We have started on it, Albertus: Sydney does have Our Lady of Advent (Granville); Our Lady of the Rocks (North Rocks); Our Lady of Albion (Surry Hills), and Our Lady of the Mystic Rose (Rose Bay)!
In, but not (yet at least) of the Diocese!
![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
Posts: 401 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Jul 2012
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Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927
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Posted
We also had our own Virgin of the fence posts some years ago. Complete with pilgrims. This was at Coogee Beach. From a few hundred metres away, at certain time of the day when the light was right, the Virgin could be seen by squinting at a fence post. Later destroyed by vandals.
[ 11. October 2015, 22:45: Message edited by: Lothlorien ]
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Buy a bale. Help our Aussie rural communities and farmers. Another great cause needing support The High Country Patrol.
Posts: 9745 | From: girt by sea | Registered: Aug 2003
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Our Lady of Aberdeen is known in Brussels,where the original statue is now to be found ,as Notre Dame du bon Succes (is a translation really needed here ?) and also simply as ND de Finisterre,since the statue was brought to Brussels,then in the Spanish Netherlands ,
from the ends of the earth.
In front of the church in the shopping district of the rue Neuve/Nieustraat are carved the words:
Laus tua in fines terrae (Your praise goes out to the ends of the earth).
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Originally posted by Forthview:
quote:
the statue was brought to Brussels,then in the Spanish Netherlands,from the ends of the earth.
Aberdeen is "the ends of the earth"??? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
There is a small statue of Our Lady of Coventry in Priory Gardens (in Coventry) - it appears to just be a local dedication without any apparition.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Aberdeen 'the ends of the earth' ??? well,maybe,but it really refers to the statue as having been brought to Brussels from Cape Finisterre in Galicia,within the territory of the King of Spain.
How it got to Spain is yet another matter !
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
If I ever visit Brussels, it is at the top of my "must see" list.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Aberdeen is "the ends of the earth"???
Yes!
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
That title would appear to have an older pedigree than Massachusetts!
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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BulldogSacristan
Shipmate
# 11239
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Posted
Well, I did not know that!
That, however, gets more to the heart of it for me, however. For instance, I'm sure All Saints' Church, Boston wouldn't have a statute of Our Lady of Dorchester if it weren't in Dorchester, Boston, Massachusetts. Aren't these designations, e.g. "Our Lady of Fifth Ave." a touch cheeky? Is that okay? For some reason I think it is, even though I don't usually like to make light of Christianity. But I think this is a particularly Anglican phenomenon.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BulldogSacristan:
... But I think this is a particularly Anglican phenomenon.
I think it would be more pedantically accurate to call this is a particularly Episcopalian phenomenon.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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BulldogSacristan
Shipmate
# 11239
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Posted
Or to be more pedantic, an Episcopal phenomenon.
Episcopalian is a noun. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posts: 197 | From: Boston, Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2006
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BulldogSacristan:
Or to be more pedantic, an Episcopal phenomenon.
Episcopalian is a noun.
Can it not be both, like "American"?
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BulldogSacristan
Shipmate
# 11239
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Posted
Sadly no.
From the church style guide. . (It's surprisingly thorough.):
Episcopal, Episcopalian: Episcopal is the adjective; use Episcopalian only as a noun referring to a member of The Episcopal Church: She is an Episcopalian and she is also an Episcopal priest.
Posts: 197 | From: Boston, Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2006
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I think we may have hit a pond difference here. 'Episcopal' here would normally mean directly pertaining to a bishop. To describe something as "a particularly Episcopal phenomenon" would mean something that went specifically with a bishop, like a mitre, or gaiters.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
What's the pond that separates Scotland from England, then? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
It's also a latitude question; north of the world's longest undefended border, we use British style on this, outside of the newspaper world. When referring to TEC stuff, we use their style, but a retired journalist of mky acquaintance (ex-Montreal Gazette) told me that when he did so (using the Associated Press stylebook), he would get correcting telephone calls from a variety of clerics and wannabees who disapproved. He told me that, when he wasn't too busy, he like chatting with them.
In decades of scratching out clerical address errors in ministerial correspondence (would you address a cardinal archbishop as Dear Reverend Ouellet??), I never ran into anything going to a TEC cleric, so was deprived of recreation.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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BulldogSacristan
Shipmate
# 11239
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I think we may have hit a pond difference here. 'Episcopal' here would normally mean directly pertaining to a bishop. To describe something as "a particularly Episcopal phenomenon" would mean something that went specifically with a bishop, like a mitre, or gaiters.
I'm not entirely sure this is correct. The "episcopal" in The Episcopal Church does mean directly pertaining to a bishop. It's an adjective describing Church, as opposed to a presbyterian church or a congregational church, for example. "Episcopal" doesn't sound quite right converted into a noun, e.g., "I'm an Episcopal," so it needs a more "noun-y" noun form.
Episcopalians also use the adjective "episcopal" in a more general sense all the time, as well. We have a section in the Prayer Book called Episcopal Services for ordinations, etc.
Posts: 197 | From: Boston, Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2006
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Referring to pond difference between Scotland and England ,that is on both sides of the Tweed, I would ,like my English counterpart ,understand 'episcopal phenomenon' (or even 'Episcopal phenomenon' as referring directly to a bishop.
'Episcopalian phenomenon' would suggest,rightly or wrongly, things to do with the members of the episcopal church.
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
It's also a latitude question; north of the world's longest undefended border, we use British style on this, outside of the newspaper world. When referring to TEC stuff, we use their style, but a retired journalist of mky acquaintance (ex-Montreal Gazette) told me that when he did so (using the Associated Press stylebook), he would get correcting telephone calls from a variety of clerics and wannabees who disapproved. He told me that, when he wasn't too busy, he like chatting with them.
In decades of scratching out clerical address errors in ministerial correspondence (would you address a cardinal archbishop as Dear Reverend Ouellet??), I never ran into anything going to a TEC cleric, so was deprived of recreation.
I often hear the assertion "Episcopal is an adjective, Episcopalian is a noun" repeated, but I'm not convinced it's dogmatically true as a style principle. There are instances where following it slavishly just sounds wrong in my ears, and this is one of them (we're talking about a phenomenon particular to Episcopalians as a tradition, not episcopacy as an office). "Episcopal bishop" is redundant; "Episcopalian bishop" makes sense as denoting a bishop of a particular denomination of which episcopacy is a keynote feature. It also fits with the broader English usage around denominational labels: Unitarian and Presbyterian work perfectly well as both nouns and adjectives, so why do we think we're special.
Most Roman Catholic dioceses in Canada are incorporated as "the Roman Catholic Episcopal Corporation of [Place]." One wonders what the part-of-speech fundamentalists would make of that.
Since the style guide of the church in question also recommends referring to it as The Episcopal Church, complete with indefensibly capitalized article, I wouldn't take it as gospel on its own when it comes to this sort of question.
[ 17. October 2015, 03:33: Message edited by: Knopwood ]
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
It's about as dogmatically true as a universal as the assertion that Jackie, Jacqui, Jacquie or any of the various other permutations is the correct spelling for everyone everywhere because that's the way the person talking at the time happens to spell her version of it.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
The "Episcopal is an adjective; Episcopalian is a noun" maxim most assuredly does apply here. Indeed, the former is a proper adjective and the latter a proper noun. For whatever historical reasons, when the American province of the Anglican Communion was formed after independence had been gained, Anglicans here chose the adjective Episcopal as the principal word in their name. (OK, it was originally called the Protestant Episcopal Church, but it was always colloquially known, and later, legally known, as TEC.) The terms Presbyterian and Unitarian, mentioned here (the same evolution would apply to Lutheran) were originally only adjectives, but then were used by their founders as nouns, and incorporated as the civil and ecclesiastical names of those bodies. Curiously, in the case of Methodist and Baptist, the reverse occurred, and the chosen nouns evolved into also being used as adjectives.
The best religious linguistic analogy would be Congregational, which is the adjective, and Congregationalist, which is the noun.
The situation in the UK is indeed different, insofar as the church there does not include the proper adjective Episcopal as part of its name. As a result, the proper noun is not needed to refer to its communicants, and the common adjective episcopal retains its reference to the episcopacy in general. The Canadian example provided here also does not apply, as despite the use of the proper adjective Episcopal in the legal documents needed to incorporate RC dioceses under Canadian civil law, the RCC there does not refer to itself or any of its dioceses in this way in an ecclesiastical, or even social, context. It is simply a civil legal mechanism, and nothing else. Yet even in that context, the proper adjective is used correctly.
[ 17. October 2015, 12:49: Message edited by: Ceremoniar ]
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
The situation in the UK is indeed different, insofar as the church there does not include the proper adjective Episcopal as part of its name.
Could have fooled me:
http://www.scotland.anglican.org/
Where do you think the Americans got it from?
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
The Canadian example provided here also does not apply, as despite the use of the proper adjective Episcopal in the legal documents needed to incorporate RC dioceses under Canadian civil law, the RCC there does not refer to itself or any of its dioceses in this way in an ecclesiastical, or even social, context.
I'm not saying it "applies". But in my ears, the article in the sentence "I'm an Episcopalian" isn't syntactically indispensable. "I'm Episcopalian" sounds equally natural at least in spoken English, but if the maxim is elevated to a universal law then without the "an" you would need to say "I'm Episcopal." Which I expect would sound silly no matter where you're from.
Anyway, to respond to the point that produced this tangent, I don't think such titles for Our Lady are exclusively an Episcopal(ian) phenomenon. Many of the cathedrals and basilicas here in Québec are "Notre Dame de" [place], even if there was no particular image or apparition associated with the place. I don't think, for instance, that the Notre-Dame-de-Montréal basilica invokes any cultus of "Our Lady of Montréal". It just expresses the city's dedication (as was) to the Virgin in general.
[ 17. October 2015, 14:48: Message edited by: Knopwood ]
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
The father of a friend is buried at the Notre Dame des Neiges (OL of the Snows) cemetery and I have also attended an interment at Notre Dame des Bois (OL of the Woods), and ND des Victoires (OL of Victories). As Knopwood noted, they are sometimes just geographical-- the basilica in Québec City is Notre Dame de Québec; ND de Jacques Cartier had nothing to do with the explorer, but is in a district in Québec City; ND de Cap (OL of the Cape) is a geographical moniker as is ND des Champs (OL of the Fields) and ND des Prairies. Others indicate that this is a church of Our Lady in a particular township (ND de Stanbridge, ND de Lac Station, ND de Portneuf etc). ND de Ham is another township name, and has nothing to do with luncheon meat. One of my favourites is ND du Loup (OL of the Wolf).
Northern Irish shipmates may or may not be relieved that the church of Notre Dame de Stormont received the dedication of Saint Felix instead.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
The situation in the UK is indeed different, insofar as the church there does not include the proper adjective Episcopal as part of its name.
Could have fooled me:
http://www.scotland.anglican.org/
Where do you think the Americans got it from?
Apology--I meant England.
Posts: 1240 | From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2008
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Aberdeen had a medieval "Our Lady of the Snow" church, long gone. It fell into disrepair following the Reformation, though legend says that secret masses were held in its ruins by those clinging to the Old Faith. The site of the Snow kirk became the Roman Catholic cemetery and it remains, tiny, muddy, neglected, with haphazard graves, utterly poignant.
The Snow cemetery is one of those places where time stops when you pass through the gates.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
The Snow kirk(yard) in Aberdeen recalls one of the names of the Basilica of St Mary Major on the Esquiline Hill in Rome. The site was chosen for this major basilica after a 'miraculous' fall of snow on the Esquiline hill in the night of the 4th to the 5th August AD 355.
In the Roman liturgy the festival of our Lady of the Snows is kept on the 5th August.Within the basilica itself the event is commemorated with a fall of white rose petals from the dome of the building. Notre Dame des Neiges,Maria Schnee,Our Lady of the Snows is not too uncommon a dedication for a Catholic church.
Our Lady of the Snows was the name of the parish kirk in Old Aberdeen,as opposed to the cathedral of St Machar.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Anglicano
Shipmate
# 18476
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Posted
Our Lady of Walsingham is important to high Anglicans, and not only in Norfolk, England. I gather that there is an Episcopal church dedicated to her in Florida, too.
The unsuccessful English "Personal Ordinariate" is also dedicated to Our Lady of Walsingham.
I had some correspondence on-line with a Roman Catholic about Marian apparitions. He told me that the only place he'd witnessed one was at the CofE shrine in Walsingham.
Posts: 61 | From: Cheshire, England | Registered: Sep 2015
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Our Lady of Coventry appears to have been commissioned and blessed by the RC Archbishop of Birmingham, so not just for Anglicans it seems. The BVM is patron of the entire universe so I can't see the cheek of local Marian devotions myself.
Also don't forget the other UK RC Marian shrines at Doncaster, Ipswich and Cardigan, and Knock in Ireland.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglicano:
Our Lady of Walsingham is important to high Anglicans, and not only in Norfolk, England. I gather that there is an Episcopal church dedicated to her in Florida, too.
The unsuccessful English "Personal Ordinariate" is also dedicated to Our Lady of Walsingham.
I had some correspondence on-line with a Roman Catholic about Marian apparitions. He told me that the only place he'd witnessed one was at the CofE shrine in Walsingham.
OK, I'll bite. Unsucessful?
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Anglicano
Shipmate
# 18476
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Posted
OK, I'll bite. Unsucessful?
Er, we were told that this was a "seismic change", and possibly a further/final nail in the coffin of the CofE. But five years later the Ordinariate only has some 3,500 adherents and has had remarkably little impact. It depends how you define success. Would you prefer the word "insignificant"?
Posts: 61 | From: Cheshire, England | Registered: Sep 2015
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
And even fewer here. The much-forecast incorporation of the Church of Torres Strait, which would bring in about 9 or 10 thousand, has not happened and looks no closer now than when first mooted. With some good will all around, it's not too late for that church to become either an Anglican province of its own, or perhaps even come back into the Anglican Church of Australia.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Can Anglicano tell us a little more about the Marian apparition at Walsingham ?
Who were the visionaries ? How many people claim to have seen the apparition ?
Does the CofE shrine at Walsingham publicise the apparition ?
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Anglicano
Shipmate
# 18476
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Posted
Can Anglicano tell us a little more about the Marian apparition at Walsingham ?
Who were the visionaries ? How many people claim to have seen the apparition ?
Does the CofE shrine at Walsingham publicise the apparition ?
I'm sorry, but I'll have to pass on that. I was in conversation with a RC poster on a now disbanded board and he told me that it was his experience.
Posts: 61 | From: Cheshire, England | Registered: Sep 2015
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
Frankly, it sounds like bitter grapes to me. I don't recall Pope Benedict making predictions about seismic changes or nailed coffins when he created the ordinariate. I believe that it was church pundits who made such comments. It was a response to a petition by Anglican bishops--admittedly mostly in North America--but it seems to serve the spiritual needs of some.
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Anglicano
Shipmate
# 18476
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Posted
Frankly, it sounds like bitter grapes to me. I don't recall Pope Benedict making predictions about seismic changes or nailed coffins when he created the ordinariate. I believe that it was church pundits who made such comments. It was a response to a petition by Anglican bishops--admittedly mostly in North America--but it seems to serve the spiritual needs of some.
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Bitter grapes?
The comment was made by Ruth Gledhill, religious affairs correspondent of The Times, a Murdoch newspaper, and reiterated more than once on the BBC (whose Director General and Chairman were both RC at the time). The relative lack of success of such a high profile initiative has been given little or no publicity.
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Anglicano
Shipmate
# 18476
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Posted
It was a response to a petition by Anglican bishops--admittedly mostly in North America
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No the petition was from RCs, mainly clerics, in England. There are a disproportionately high number of priests to lay persons. One RC priest I know, who I cannot name, regards the whole thing as an embarrassment and finds it a matter of concern that an ex-Anglican RC priest can be married but he can't.
Posts: 61 | From: Cheshire, England | Registered: Sep 2015
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Anglicano
Shipmate
# 18476
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Posted
And even fewer here. The much-forecast incorporation of the Church of Torres Strait, which would bring in about 9 or 10 thousand, has not happened and looks no closer now than when first mooted. With some good will all around, it's not too late for that church to become either an Anglican province of its own, or perhaps even come back into the Anglican Church of Australia.
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I used to be a member of Anglican Forums, until I was banned for supporting Dr Welby on women bishops. Anyhow, in that forum you'll come across a whole range of reactionary ex-Anglican "churches", small in size but with plenty of bile.
I've followed the meanderings of John Hepworth with interest. I somehow doubt that Rome would be that keen to have him back, at least not as a priest.
Posts: 61 | From: Cheshire, England | Registered: Sep 2015
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Dear all,
This discussion of the Ordinariate (successful or otherwise) is not really appropriate for Ecclesiantics. Let's keep it to debate over Marian devotion.
Anglicano - I know you probably have no intention of doing so, but just a heads up not to import debates from other bulletin boards over here. We've had bad experiences of this in the past!
Thanks all for their cooperation...
dj_ordinaire, Eccles host
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
With all due respect, the apparition of Our Lady to Richeldis at Walsingham in 1061 seems to me to be one of the most positive of such events, in that Herself (rather than just telling people to Be Good, Say Your Rosary, And Obey The Pope) was concerned that England should be forever reminded in a concrete manner of the importance of the Incarnation of Our Lord.
This is (IMHO) the great strength of Walsingham to this day, for Anglicans, RCs, and Orthodoxen alike.
Given the ambience of Walsingham (at its best, again IMHO, on a quiet autumn day like today - I find crowds difficult....), it's hardly surprising that people may have had visions of Herself in the years since 1061! More details would be welcome, of course, if there's anyone else out there who might be able to comment.......
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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