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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Charismatic Evensong?
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
I enjoy Evensong, but I often wonder if the format has ever been used in less 'traditional' settings or with less traditional contributions.
Has anyone ever come across it in a house or cell church? Has a worship band or a soloist ever taken the place of the choir? Is recorded music ever used instead of live musicians?
And do you think more churches might benefit from adapting the Evensong format for their own circumstances?
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
Well, there's this.
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
I'm not totally clear what you think a "charismatic" Evensong would look like. If you mean a charismatic evening service in a Cathedral, then there are examples of this. Justin Welby recently hosted a celebration service on a Sunday evening at Canterbury Cath - I'm not entirely sure what happened because I didn't go, but it was led by a (extremely) low and charismatic parish church. Other English Cathedrals regularly have low Anglican evening services, thinking particularly of Coventry, which has had it in place for many years.
If you are meaning a less traditional service which follows a set liturgy, then there are many low Anglican churches which follow this pattern. My teenage years were spent in a very Charismatic Anglican church which nonetheless integrated the charismatic "stuff" into the ASB service. I think the fashion today for the most charismatic Anglican churches is to more-or-less ignore the liturgy altogether in most services, but I couldn't say for certain as I've not been in those circles for quite a long time.
But if you are specifically talking about Evensong, which everything that it implies in an English Anglican context, then there are some pretty serious issues which might make it pretty hard to pull off as a low Anglican or charismatic service. For one thing, most Evensongs have little "audience participation", with most of the responses, psalms, anthems etc sung by the choir and listened to by the congregation. What would that look like in a low Anglican church? What are you suggesting would be the setting for the psalms etc?
Of course it is possible to have Congregational or choir-led singing of the liturgy - I know one low but not charismatic Anglican parish where they have their own setting for almost all the liturgy which they sing. Which is odd if you don't know the tune.
Is that a start at answering your question? Or could you be more specific about what it is that you're asking?
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arse
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venbede
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# 16669
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Posted
Of course, Evensong doesn't require a choir.
In my childhood parish Evensong was all sung by the congregation with the canticles sung to Anglican chant (and pretty grim it was). Charismatic it wasn't.
But on weekdays in conscientious parish churches it is recited without singing. There would be space for extempore prayer.
[ 03. June 2016, 08:10: Message edited by: venbede ]
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Of course, Evensong doesn't require a choir.
In my childhood parish Evensong was all sung by the congregation with the canticles sung to Anglican chant (and pretty grim it was). Charismatic it wasn't.
But on weekdays in conscientious parish churches it is recited without singing. There would be space for extempore prayer.
I'm not sure how many Anglican parish churches follow Evensong, but doubt many do it midweek. Reciting the liturgy isn't Evensong, and there are a good number of fairly low Anglican churches which read and never sing or chant the canticles.
When I first heard the Magnificat sung, I wasn't even aware that it could be.
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arse
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I am not sure about evensong. I have, however, been to a fully sung Eucharist that was very definitely Charismatic!
Actually, almost certainly could be, it would require some interest by a Charismatic songwriter in working with the canticles, but given the amount of Biblical stuff they have already got to go with charismatic-style worship music, that would not be too difficult. I would imagine something not a million miles from this youtube version of the magnificat.
Jengie
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
Evening Prayer - and Morning Prayer, come to that - should be said in most churches daily, since it is part of a priest's routine to say the offices daily, and it is preferable that these be said publicly.
In my church the PP says his Offices in church 4 days a week and there is usually someone to say them with him.
As for a 'charismatic Evensong', I'm sure one could work within the basic framework to make the service what you want: one of the joys of the BCP was that the services could be very flexible!
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venbede
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# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Reciting the liturgy isn't Evensong,
Sorry, don't understand you. Evening Prayer aka Evensong is part of the liturgy of the BCP.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
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BroJames
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# 9636
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Posted
Although I think it would be unusual to call it Evensong unless there was actually singing. Without singing it would just be Evening Prayer.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
I should say that I'm not Anglican, and I only know Evensong from one liberal catholic church that has a very good choir, and from occasionally attending services at a cathedral. There's probably a world of 'Evensong experience' that I'm unaware of, and I'd like to know more about whatever kind of diversity exists.
Since Evensong is often described as the church's 'best kept secret' one might expect there to be some attempt to promote and adapt its charms for different contexts and situations.
(I'm aware that the CofE obviously has other services, and that Evening Prayer doesn't use a choir, but it's Evensong that interests me.)
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Evening Prayer - and Morning Prayer, come to that - should be said in most churches daily, since it is part of a priest's routine to say the offices daily, and it is preferable that these be said publicly.
In my church the PP says his Offices in church 4 days a week and there is usually someone to say them with him.
This may be true in your parish and in your corner of the Anglican church, but it certainly isn't true in mine nor in the majority of the "rump" of low Anglican churches.
The vast majority of low Anglican parish churches have 3 services a week (excepting weddings, funerals etc) - twice on a Sunday and a midweek communion.
I've never ever heard of a parish church that had daily (or near daily) Morning and Evening prayer and if the incumbent is expected to follow the liturgy in their own prayers, I've never ever been invited to join him or her.
And, I have to say, I'd find a church which had two services a day of led prayers very attractive. I don't believe such places exist very often in the Anglican Church in England, and certainly don't exist in the circles in which I've moved for decades.
quote:
As for a 'charismatic Evensong', I'm sure one could work within the basic framework to make the service what you want: one of the joys of the BCP was that the services could be very flexible!
Hahahaha. I rather like the idea of a BCP charismatic service. That would be very interesting to attend.
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arse
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I should say that I'm not Anglican, and I only know Evensong from one liberal catholic church that has a very good choir, and from occasionally attending services at a cathedral. There's probably a world of 'Evensong experience' that I'm unaware of, and I'd like to know more about whatever kind of diversity exists.
Well it does, but it depends exactly how you are defining the terms. As I've suggested above, there are charismatic Anglican churches which regularly use the liturgy (although I'm doubting many use the BCP). And there are low Anglican churches which are some way along the road towards the charismatic which use (for example) guitars and drums instead of a choir in liturgical services.
And there are some churches which are not charismatic and do not have a choir but have what they describe as "Evensong" which is a service where everyone sings the psalms and other responses. I went to one like this the other week.
If you are asking whether the psalms and canticles could be written in a contemporary style and sung by the congregation with the backbone of the Anglican liturgy, then I'm sure they can - and it might be possible to argue that this is Evensong.
But if you are looking at the New Wine end of the Charismatic Anglican spectrum and asking whether there could be "manifestations of the Spirit", words, pictures, extended periods of contemporary Christian music and so on - then I'd say no. These kinds of service do not tend to work very well with structured liturgy. I'm not sure how one would organise it with the BCP, the ASB, Common Worship etc.
It might be possible to do something with the Anglican liturgy which came out to be more-or-less like a Taize service, but I'm not sure whether you'd be defining that as "charismatic".
quote:
Since Evensong is often described as the church's 'best kept secret' one might expect there to be some attempt to promote and adapt its charms for different contexts and situations.
I think Evensong is a particular thing in a particular context - which in a British context usually means a choral service with a trained choir and a defined liturgy. I'm struggling to understand how you think it would be possible to take it out of that context and into another one - when the one you want to transplant it into is (to some extent) the antithesis of it.
Anglican liturgy can do many things, but giving structure to those who want services without that kind of structure isn't one of them.
quote:
(I'm aware that the CofE obviously has other services, and that Evening Prayer doesn't use a choir, but it's Evensong that interests me.)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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arse
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
The CofE is not my church, as I said, so it's not for me to say to what extent any kind of adaptation of Evensong would be possible, acceptable, or desirable in the CofE. I'm just an outsider who sits in a pew!
My title for this thread didn't presume any fixed idea of what 'charismatic' meant. I used it as an example of the possible diverse settings and adaptability of Evensong. I might equally have used 'Home Church Evensong?' or 'Messy Church Evensong?' or whatever. Others are free to state if and how these contexts and their associated practices might or might not be compatible with Evensong.
For example, if you're saying that adapting Evensong beyond a certain point would destroy the structure and purpose of Evensong in a CofE context, then fair enough. That makes sense. I suppose that non-traditional church groups might use Evensong as a resource to be plundered, if you like, but the end result wouldn't be Evensong itself. (So far, though, the thread hasn't yielded any examples of this.)
I don't understand your 'confused' emoticon at the end. What's the issue there?
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Local parish church to me has Morning Prayer at 8:30am as part of the routine of opening the church for the day. Different people lead on different days. There is also a public Evening Prayer one evening. It's not the first parish church I've attended where this is normal. At another church we had morning, midday and evening prayer said publicly in the church during Lent.
Evensong tends to be chanted by the congregation or Choral Evensong sung by the choir. I have attended, and led, alternative evening services, Taize, prayer walks, labyrinth prayer, Café church, but these ran alongside a monthly Choral Evensong, and were not as well attended as the formal Evensong services. (Incredibly positive in other ways, so many people, one or two each week, looking for an open church on a Sunday evening to come and pray.)
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Evening Prayer - and Morning Prayer, come to that - should be said in most churches daily, since it is part of a priest's routine to say the offices daily, and it is preferable that these be said publicly.
In my church the PP says his Offices in church 4 days a week and there is usually someone to say them with him.
This may be true in your parish and in your corner of the Anglican church, but it certainly isn't true in mine nor in the majority of the "rump" of low Anglican churches.
The vast majority of low Anglican parish churches have 3 services a week (excepting weddings, funerals etc) - twice on a Sunday and a midweek communion.
I've never ever heard of a parish church that had daily (or near daily) Morning and Evening prayer and if the incumbent is expected to follow the liturgy in their own prayers, I've never ever been invited to join him or her.
Beware of generalisations. The church nearest to me is as low as you can get (north-end communion with black scarf) but they say Morning Prayer every morning, and ring the bell as recommended in the BCP. I'm not sure if they do the same in the evening but I wouldn't be surprised.
Sorry if I sound like a grumpy old man (well, I am), but I don't think the abandonment of the Anglican tradition as suggested above, has much to do with 'churchpersonship', but more to do with laziness. And to be fair, the much more stressed and overworked life of the clergy. But if they are not praying regularly they can't be very effective spiritually, pastorally or any other way.
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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Sorry if I sound like a grumpy old man (well, I am), but I don't think the abandonment of the Anglican tradition as suggested above, has much to do with 'churchpersonship', but more to do with laziness.
I was rather under the impression that it was required by the canons both for every priest to say morning and evening prayer daily, and for every incumbent to ensure that morning and evening prayer was said daily in one of the churches in his parish.
Yes, here it is.
quote:
C 26 Of the manner of life of clerks in Holy Orders
1. Every clerk in Holy Orders is under obligation, not being let by sickness or some other urgent cause, to say daily the Morning and Evening Prayer, either privately or openly; and to celebrate the Holy Communion, or be present thereat, on all Sundays and other principal Feast Days. He is also to be diligent in daily prayer and intercession, in examination of his conscience, and in the study of the Holy Scriptures and such other studies as pertain to his ministerial duties.
There's more wriggle room about saying it publicly - canons B11 and B14A allow the Bishop and PCC to dispense with the requirement "for good reason", which in these degenerate days would probably include "nobody comes".
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I've never ever heard of a parish church that had daily (or near daily) Morning and Evening prayer and if the incumbent is expected to follow the liturgy in their own prayers, I've never ever been invited to join him or her.
Every church i have ever belonged to - that's 5 over my lifetime, had had and still does have the daily offices and a decent number of layfolk who support the priest (or replace him/her on his/her day off).
[ 03. June 2016, 14:06: Message edited by: leo ]
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Beware of generalisations. The church nearest to me is as low as you can get (north-end communion with black scarf) but they say Morning Prayer every morning, and ring the bell as recommended in the BCP. I'm not sure if they do the same in the evening but I wouldn't be surprised.
I was just wondering if I was going completely mad and so looked at the service times of all the parishes in my deanery.
There are 19 parishes. 4 have Morning Prayer on weekdays, one of those has Evening Prayer on one of the days.
5 have midweek services, one has two services in the week.
I can't find accurate information about one of them.
Of those which have Morning Prayer, only one could be described as "low Anglican".
So approximately a quarter of my local churches have weekday morning prayer services. Hence, whichever way you might want to divide it, having daily Morning Prayer services is not normal practice around here.
quote:
Sorry if I sound like a grumpy old man (well, I am), but I don't think the abandonment of the Anglican tradition as suggested above, has much to do with 'churchpersonship', but more to do with laziness. And to be fair, the much more stressed and overworked life of the clergy. But if they are not praying regularly they can't be very effective spiritually, pastorally or any other way.
I don't think it is laziness, I think it is a lack of appreciation from your part that all Anglican churches are not the way you'd want them to be. In fact, the vast majority are not following the pattern of worship you seem to think is normal.
That you think the "lowest of the low" Anglican churches are characterised by "north-end communion with black scarf" just shows how little you know about a large number of churches in your own denomination.
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arse
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Every church i have ever belonged to - that's 5 over my lifetime, had had and still does have the daily offices and a decent number of layfolk who support the priest (or replace him/her on his/her day off).
I've a regular at 5 Anglican parish churches, most of which have been very low or charismatic. None of them had Morning Prayer when I was there, one has started it since.
We all experience the Anglican church in different ways.
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arse
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Anyway, I wonder if we can agree what the essence of Evensong is. I'd think it was the sung psalms, canticles and responses in a distinct liturgical form.
Can it be Evensong if there is no liturgical form? Could a church, say, sing the various different parts without the rest of the liturgy?
I suspect there are contemporary songs based on the Magnificat and canticles, would it be Evensong if they were used?
My view is that Evensong without the surrounding liturgy is stretching the meaning of the term. But I can't really see that using the liturgy with modern settings for the music is.
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arse
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
Surely Evensong has to include (a) at least the obligatory liturgical passages from the BCP or Common Worship service of Evening Prayer; and (b) at least some singing, not necessarily by a choir.
Anything less is either some other kind of "evening service" or isn't evensong.
[ 03. June 2016, 14:41: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I don't think it is laziness, I think it is a lack of appreciation from your part that all Anglican churches are not the way you'd want them to be. In fact, the vast majority are not following the pattern of worship you seem to think is normal.
That you think the "lowest of the low" Anglican churches are characterised by "north-end communion with black scarf" just shows how little you know about a large number of churches in your own denomination.
Ok, the 'laziness' comment was unfair, and grumpy. I take that back. And of course I appreciate that the office is not everybody's devotional cup of tea. But a church that is locked from one weekend to the next is not the most inspiring witness.
And of course I know that many Anglican churches have very little in the way of formal liturgy. Perhaps it's a difference of definition, but I wouldn't equate charismatic and low-church worship (or even evangelical theology, but that is another debate). All I was doing was pointing out that regular saying of the offices, publicly in church, is not confined to one section of the church. And black scarf communion is low church however you look at it.
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Surely Evensong has to include (a) at least the obligatory liturgical passages from the BCP or Common Worship service of Evening Prayer; and (b) at least some singing, not necessarily by a choir.
Anything less is either some other kind of "evening service" or isn't evensong.
'Evensong' is simply the traditional name for what the BCP (and modern RC books) call Evening Prayer, or traditionally in the RCC Vespers. Presumably it gets the name because it was traditionally sung in monasteries and 'quires and places where they sing', but 'said Evensong' is not a contradiction in terms and I have often heard the expression.
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
]Ok, the 'laziness' comment was unfair, and grumpy. I take that back. And of course I appreciate that the office is not everybody's devotional cup of tea. But a church that is locked from one weekend to the next is not the most inspiring witness.
Absolutely agree.
quote:
And of course I know that many Anglican churches have very little in the way of formal liturgy. Perhaps it's a difference of definition, but I wouldn't equate charismatic and low-church worship (or even evangelical theology, but that is another debate).
Yes, I agree it isn't necessarily all the same thing. The charismatic Anglican parish church of my teenage years was very charismatic but had fully robed clergy.
I also realise now that one of the regular worship songs was a setting of the Magnificat, played on the guitar. I don't know why I hadn't realised that before.
A low-but-not-really-charismatic church I attended for some years had a very cutdown and limited liturgy and the vicar never wore any robes or anything. I don't think I ever even saw him wear a dog collar.
quote:
All I was doing was pointing out that regular saying of the offices, publicly in church, is not confined to one section of the church. And black scarf communion is low church however you look at it.
In the lowest Anglican churches, priests wear nothing identifiable as clerical garb.
It seems to me that there is a layer of "lowness" beyond that which you are aware.
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
'Said Evensong' is not a contradiction in terms and I have often heard the expression.
So have I (and I've used it too!), but it still doesn't sound right.
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
if they are not praying regularly they can't be very effective spiritually, pastorally or any other way.
agree but many clergy find the offices too wordy for prayer - a much stripped down office would help and there are some in existence.
Pish-tush. It's perfectly possible to do BCP MP or EP in 15 or so minutes- although possibly with some selectivity among the psalms. And the repetition is part of the framework within which other prayer can happen. But in any case, this isn't just about the cleric's private devotions: it should be part of a corporate act,all pulling on the same rope.
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
]In the lowest Anglican churches, priests wear nothing identifiable as clerical garb.
It seems to me that there is a layer of "lowness" beyond that which you are aware.
I am perfectly aware. But 'informal' and 'low church' are not the same thing. Traditional 'low' Anglican worship was defined by loyalty to the BCP and the clergy wearing surplice and scarf for everything. I have experienced informal (not always charismatic) worship in churches that would self-describe as 'liberal' or even 'catholic'; and I have presided at the eucharist in such churches wearing ordinary street clothes.
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I am perfectly aware. But 'informal' and 'low church' are not the same thing. Traditional 'low' Anglican worship was defined by loyalty to the BCP and the clergy wearing surplice and scarf for everything. I have experienced informal (not always charismatic) worship in churches that would self-describe as 'liberal' or even 'catholic'; and I have presided at the eucharist in such churches wearing ordinary street clothes.
I stand corrected, you're using a different definition of "low" to me.
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arse
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Sipech
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# 16870
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Posted
If a charismatic church were to adopt something like an Evensong, then I think the key question would be: What do you hope to get from it? Or perhaps, what is it about such an Anglican service that is good and could serve as inspiration for a charismatic church?
If you’re a conservative, taking the BCP to be normative, then one would have to do a copy+paste job, which would seem to defeat the object. Where the charismatic church makes room for the Holy Spirit, the liturgical largely excludes it by scripting the whole service. Though perhaps one could look at On Fire Mission for hints at how these two approaches might be balanced.
You have to remember that from a charismatic perspective, most Anglican services look alike. It's a bit like someone from Manchester looking at London and taking the whole place as one large area, while the Londoners view Hampstead and Chelsea as wholly different parts of the world which only a fool would get wrong.
If you dropped me or most charismatics in the middle of an Anglican service, we probably couldn't tell (without looking at the watch or the script sheet) whether we were in a Matins, a Mass or an Evensong. It's all minor variations at one end of christianity. Likewise, if an Anglican stumbled into a charismatic church, they might not be able to tell the difference between a New Frontiers church and Hillsong.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
There are several things that Evensong could potentially bring to, or emphasise, in charismatic worship.
One is that Evensong a very contemplative space. To me, this mirrors a certain something in Pentecostalism which is that even in the midst of loud singing, prayers and other people speaking in tongues, the individual is free, somehow, to engage in his or her own prayers and contemplations.
The other is the repetitive nature of Evensong. Following exactly the same format week after week liberates me from the yearning I've often had for something different and 'uplifting' in a (non-charismatic) church service. Such a yearning, I found, frequently led to disappointment in church worship. In charismatic churches where there's a certain weariness setting in due to everyone looking for the 'next big thing' it might provide a kind of antidote.
More generally, although the Protestant way is often to emphasise the importance of the sermon, sermons may be vacuous, jumbled, or just don't seem relevant to one's own spiritual needs. With Evensong, though, the sermons are often very short and focused on a single point without padding. This would presumably be transferable to the kinds of charismaticism where most learning occurs in small groups, meaning that the longish, rambling sermon isn't necessary.
Evensong in a charismatic context might simply provide an opportunity for calmer, low-key worship for members who don't gel completely with the livelier, more extrovert style of the morning service.
(As I said above, though, I'm not trying to be prescriptive, or to make assumptions about charismaticism.)
[ 03. June 2016, 17:09: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm sorry, Sipech, but I feel uncomfortable with this thing about less liturgical churches 'making room for the Holy Spirit' - it suggests that God the Holy Spirit can only 'work' or 'move' without a 'script' as it were.
From what I can gather and from my reading of the NT, the Jewish synagogue service was fairly 'scripted' ... and when Jesus and the disciples observed the Passover and so on they would have been doing so in the context of a liturgical tradition ...
I agree with the point you make, though, about Anglican services looking 'alike' to non-Anglicans - in the same way that a Hillsongs or New Frontiers meeting might look the same to someone who isn't from a charismatic background.
However, if you went to a New Wine-ish Anglican service it'd be pretty obvious how it differed from, say, a MoTR Anglican parish or a spikey-Anglo-Catholic one.
On the other points, I agree with Baptist Trainfan and mr cheesy, for Evensong to be Evensong it has to be done in a particular way - otherwise it simply becomes 'evening prayer' or something more generic. Which would be fine, but it wouldn't be Evensong.
Context is everything.
While we're on the subject of Evensong, how about Compline? That has to be one of my favourite Anglican forms of service and yet it's as rare as hens' teeth.
As for clergy saying the offices and so on - I bet if you asked our local evangelical vicar whether he said the offices he'd look at you daft (as we used to say in South Wales) ...
He'd be aware of what the offices are, of course, but I'd be surprised if he's ever said one in his life ... unless under duress ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
There are several things that Evensong could potentially bring to, or emphasise, in charismatic worship.
One is that Evensong a very contemplative space. To me, this mirrors a certain something in Pentecostalism which is that even in the midst of loud singing, prayers and other people speaking in tongues, the individual is free, somehow, to engage in his or her own prayers and contemplations.
The other is the repetitive nature of Evensong. Following exactly the same format week after week liberates me from the yearning I've often had for something different and 'uplifting' in a (non-charismatic) church service. Such a yearning, I found, frequently led to disappointment in church worship. In charismatic churches where there's a certain weariness setting in due to everyone looking for the 'next big thing' it might provide a kind of antidote.
More generally, although the Protestant way is often to emphasise the importance of the sermon, sermons may be vacuous, jumbled, or just don't seem relevant to one's own spiritual needs. With Evensong, though, the sermons are often very short and focused on a single point without padding. This would presumably be transferable to the kinds of charismaticism where most learning occurs in small groups, meaning that the longish, rambling sermon isn't necessary.
Evensong in a charismatic context might simply provide an opportunity for calmer, low-key worship for members who don't gel completely with the livelier, more extrovert style of the morning service.
(As I said above, though, I'm not trying to be prescriptive, or to make assumptions about charismaticism.)
These are interesting observations and I'd share the sentiments to a certain extent ... however, given that you're describing a journey I've taken/am taken, it begs the question ... why bother with the charismatic at all? At least in the way it's traditionally understood within Pentecostalism and charismatic-dom?
You could argue that Pentecostalism is echoing something found in the older traditions - rather than the other way around - insofar that if there is space for reflection and for contemplation this is because there was already space for that in the wider and older tradition/s from which Pentecostalism derived and emanated in the first place.
So, what Evensong provides for you and what you are tapping into, has always been there ... it's just that you might not have appropriated it in the same way before.
I completely agree that forms of service like Evensong, Compline - or their equivalents in other more sacramental traditions such as Vespers in the Orthodox tradition or the various RC 'hours' and offices ... provide an antidote for the sense of let-down that one often gets after the rah-rah-rah of charismaticism.
There comes a point though - and I may have reached that - where one thinks, 'Well, it's such a good antidote, why bother with the up-and-down switch-back ride of charismaticism at all?'
I believe it's perfectly possible to remain 'charismatic' in the broader sense within a more sacramental or liturgical framework. It's simply a case of moving the locus and focus away from the apparently spontaneous and working it out in the more formal or 'set' pattern of things ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
Our Parish Church does a late (8.40pm) Choral Compline by candlelight six times a year on Fridays. Poorly attended but special.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
A few further thoughts ...
Has anyone has experience of Evensong in a charismatic Anglo-Catholic context?
If so, does it differ in any way from how Evensong is conducted elsewhere?
Also, the charismatic and the contemplative are not necessarily at variance - as the history and development of the Quakers indicates. Yet many/most conservative charismatics would have issues with contemporary Quakerism, particularly herein the UK,I suspect.
On the issue of more contemplative or reflective styles of service within the charismatic constituency more widely - I get the impression that these are not entirely unknown these days.
There is a more reflective end of the charismatic spectrum, particularly, I would say, among some of the Vineyard people and among charismatic Baptists and Anglicans. The extent to which this mirrors or echoes traditional Anglican or other 'historic church' practices will vary according to setting and context.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
I can't answer your question I'm afraid - but it's an intriguing one!
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
Anglo-catholics in the UK would be unlikely to do Evensong, seeing it as the vanguard of the C of E's bastardisation of the Catholic heritage it received. UK Anglo-Catholics do RC Evening Prayer, i.e. vespers.
To me, a charismatic evensong would have to perform the same processes as the traditional monastic offices, from which evensong was developed, within and for those who live within the charismatic tent. They constitute the respiration of the church - they are the means by which it breathes, it gathers its energy, and by which it brings its oldest prayers, celebrations and lamentations, the psalms, to life.
What would a Charismatic put in that place? Would such a gathering be closer to a Quaker meeting - a time set aside each week to see what arrives from the holy spirit, with no expectation of other liturgical or quasi-liturgical actions? A time to remember how to wait on the Spirit, which seems to me to be the heart of the charismatic...erm....charism?
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
Anglo-catholics in the UK would be unlikely to do Evensong, seeing it as the vanguard of the C of E's bastardisation of the Catholic heritage it received. UK Anglo-Catholics do RC Evening Prayer, i.e. vespers.
Many anglo-catholics and MOTR clergy used the modern RC offices in preference to the BCP, when saying them privately. Some still do, though since the advent of Common Worship I suspect fewer of them. But celebrating them publicly is a different matter, and one of the markers of a traditional Anglo-catholic parish is, on Sunday evenings, sung Evensong from the BCP followed by Benediction. That is the case even in those churches which use the Roman rite for mass.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
Not all of them, at least not as I understood what I was seeing/taking part in.
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Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
Gamaliel, I suppose the point is that, for those to whom it feels native, evensong precisely makes space for the holy spirit by being this process of respiration I'm talking about. If it is suffocating, it can't also be a process of respiration.
The question is what provides that same supra-personal, supra-occasional process of respiration that is provided by the offices, behind and around the more obviously liturgical occasions of which the eucharist/mass is the equivalent.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
Gam, I think if one was a Charismatic Anglican, you may well not be familiar with any of any of the liturgy of the prayerbooks - BCP, ASB or CW.
I think it must vary, but the majority of the services at the charismatic Anglican church of my teenage years, most (but not all) of the services were directly from the ASB. Some used none of the official liturgy.
Other charismatic Anglican churches I know project bits of the liturgy onto a screen, but I don't know that the majority of the (mostly young) congregation would know where in the prayerbook to find them. If you were to ask them about Morning Worship, Evening Worship (never mind Compline), I'd be willing to bet that they wouldn't be able to tell you anything about it.
Other churches I've attended (which I'm going to describe as low, but maybe that's not correct based on what Angloid has said above) have a printed card they use for the regular responses (which doesn't specify what the service is). Even when I physically held the ASB, I usually only used the same pages of it, so I might have been aware that other services existed but never used them.
I think it is very likely that someone whose only exposure to Anglicanism is via New Wine style charismatic Anglican services would feel totally at sea in any kind of structured Anglican service, at a Cathedral at another Anglican church outside of their tradition, etc.
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arse
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
Gamaliel, I suppose the point is that, for those to whom it feels native, evensong precisely makes space for the holy spirit by being this process of respiration I'm talking about. If it is suffocating, it can't also be a process of respiration.
I think all churches are actually liturgical, it is just that some are more structured than others. I think it is the nature of religion to be expressed as a form of liturgy.
But the problem with what you've outlined above is that you are implying that everyone - all Anglicans - do the same thing. They don't. Some clearly think that they do not need to regularly use the written liturgy.
Their "breathing" may indeed take the form of a regular pattern of prayer, but this has very little to do with the written liturgy that the Anglican structure expects them to use. I think we're kidding ourselves if we really think everyone is on the same page on this.
And I'm not even sure that it is true that the majority of Anglican churches have held Evensong services for a very long time. Those who follow the Evening Prayer pattern on Sunday may not be using all of it - and so on.
They days of all parishes having choirs and a choral tradition are long gone.
quote:
The question is what provides that same supra-personal, supra-occasional process of respiration that is provided by the offices, behind and around the more obviously liturgical occasions of which the eucharist/mass is the equivalent.
I think it depends on exactly who it is that we're talking about - there is a massive diversity within the Anglican umbrella, never mind outside.
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arse
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
Mr Cheesy, I wasn't intending to imply anything else, so I should have been clearer.
What I was meaning to say was that to work out what a charismatic evensong might look like it is necessary first to work out what evensong is doing for and in those parishes and people whose lives it is part of. I wasn't meaning to say it was universal outside certain specific groups; I know from my own experience that this is far from being the case. Apologies for the lack of clarity.
I think my point, insofar as I have one, is that the particular charism of evensong is its working into the fabric of things, rather than its gathering force; the latter, to me, is one of the charisms of the eucharist. Evensong happens, and where it happens, it forms part of the pulse. People come to recharge that pulse,and to be recharged by it. I agree it has some liturgical features, but not to my mind the same ones or in the same way as the eucharist.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
Mr Cheesy, I wasn't intending to imply anything else, so I should have been clearer.
What I was meaning to say was that to work out what a charismatic evensong might look like it is necessary first to work out what evensong is doing for and in those parishes and people whose lives it is part of. I wasn't meaning to say it was universal outside certain specific groups; I know from my own experience that this is far from being the case. Apologies for the lack of clarity.
Oh sorry I must have totally misunderstood your meaning. I agree with the above.
quote:
I think my point, insofar as I have one, is that the particular charism of evensong is its working into the fabric of things, rather than its gathering force; the latter, to me, is one of the charisms of the eucharist. Evensong happens, and where it happens, it forms part of the pulse. People come to recharge that pulse,and to be recharged by it. I agree it has some liturgical features, but not to my mind the same ones or in the same way as the eucharist.
Mmm. I'm not even totally convinced that all Anglican churches (or Anglicans) share the same understanding of the Eucharist. But I'm not totally sure that differences necessarily follow the other dividing lines in the church.
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arse
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
Anglo-catholics in the UK would be unlikely to do Evensong, seeing it as the vanguard of the C of E's bastardisation of the Catholic heritage it received. UK Anglo-Catholics do RC Evening Prayer, i.e. vespers.
That's a huge generalisation. Lots of UK Anglo-Catholics do Evensong.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
Anglo-catholics in the UK would be unlikely to do Evensong, seeing it as the vanguard of the C of E's bastardisation of the Catholic heritage it received. UK Anglo-Catholics do RC Evening Prayer, i.e. vespers.
That's a huge generalisation. Lots of UK Anglo-Catholics do Evensong.
Sounds as if more do than I thought. The ones I've been part of and know don't, but they sound atypical.
For my part, I'm very happy about that, because I'm a great lover of evensong, but I'd never have called myself a fully paid up A-C, and less so now than at some stages.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Wheh a studrnt, I occasionally went to St. Matthias Burley, in a working class part of Leeds...
Last time I was there, on a Low Sunday many years ago, smebody got up and announced that they'd had a "word" and, to help recommitment to faith and vangelism, the following Tuesday would see the start of a 40 day fast.......
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
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