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Source: (consider it) Thread: Charismatic Evensong?
leo
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That's interesting - I looked at their website and found that they were doing Lent for the first time last years but that they'd regularly fasted.

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Galilit
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quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
Although I think it would be unusual to call it Evensong unless there was actually singing. Without singing it would just be Evening Prayer.

I have been to a Choral Evensong in a NZ city cathedral where "the first words of the service" were: "The choir is on school holidays, the Bishop and the Dean are at a conference in Sydney so tonight's service will be 'Said Evensong'"

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Gamaliel
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I attended St Matthias Burley for a while in 1981. The morning service was a well orchestrated traditional eucharist. The evening services were more charismatic with a singing in tongues bit in the middle.

At the time, I found this more convincing than the AoG Pentecostalism I'd encountered in South Wales - 'angara-bangera-sundera-hondera' - particularly as the participants were better educated and more middle class. St Mathias might have been in a working class area but it tended to attract middle-class charismatic blow-ins.

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
I have been to a Choral Evensong in a NZ city cathedral where "the first words of the service" were: "The choir is on school holidays, the Bishop and the Dean are at a conference in Sydney so tonight's service will be 'Said Evensong'"

Makes perfect sense, as has been noted on the previous page, "Evensong" being simply an old word for "Evening Prayer." You can have Morning Prayer and Evening Prayer, or you can have Mat(t)ins and Evensong. Same things. Whether they're sung or not is another matter. So "Choral Evensong" isn't redundant, and neither is "Sung Evensong."

But this may be a losing battle, as it may end up just being easier to say it's Evening Prayer when said and Evensong when sung. Sad, though, as it would mean it's been decided the traditional usage isn't worth teaching and learning anymore.

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Jengie jon

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
That's interesting - I looked at their website and found that they were doing Lent for the first time last years but that they'd regularly fasted.

Yes, the Protestant/Puritan form of fasting which marks a season of repentance and renewal in the congregation's life. Normally it is not forty days. Based on the fasting/grieving Isreal went through when they returned to the Lord.

Protestant/Puritan food practices are not what people think they are.

Jengie

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
Makes perfect sense, as has been noted on the previous page, "Evensong" being simply an old word for "Evening Prayer." You can have Morning Prayer and Evening Prayer, or you can have Mat(t)ins and Evensong. Same things. Whether they're sung or not is another matter. So "Choral Evensong" isn't redundant, and neither is "Sung Evensong."

Well not really. Cramner's concept of Evensong was a bastardisation of other traditions and was certainly intended to be celebrated in a musical context, just as the liturgy of the monastic hours are/were sung.

Hundreds of years later we're now using the term in slightly different ways - some using it to mean Evening Prayer, some specifically to mean a choral Anglican evening service.

To my mind, the latter is clearly what was intended. We have various other words for spoken evening services (such as Compline mentioned above), so to my mind it is a rather silly fashion to use Evensong for a spoken liturgical service.

Clearly, though, mileage varies.

quote:
But this may be a losing battle, as it may end up just being easier to say it's Evening Prayer when said and Evensong when sung. Sad, though, as it would mean it's been decided the traditional usage isn't worth teaching and learning anymore.
I think that's rubbish.

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balaam

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I have attended Compline with music.

Evensong itself is an attempt to merge two services, Vespers and Compline, into one. The merge was a little messy, hence the Lords Prayer being said twice.

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
To work out what a charismatic evensong might look like it is necessary first to work out what evensong is doing for and in those parishes and people whose lives it is part of.

[...]
The particular charism of evensong is its working into the fabric of things, rather than its gathering force; the latter, to me, is one of the charisms of the eucharist. Evensong happens, and where it happens, it forms part of the pulse. People come to recharge that pulse,and to be recharged by it. I agree it has some liturgical features, but not to my mind the same ones or in the same way as the eucharist.

Thanks for this post.

For me as a non-Anglican, the significance of Evensong is probably very different from how it fits into the CofE world.

I was thinking that 'charismatic Evensong' might enable charismatic churches to expand what they do and broaden their appeal, but since Evensong doesn't exist to 'appeal' to anyone as such that idea probably doesn't make a lot of sense to people who are on the inside.

(Indeed, the pragmatic and evangelistic side of some charismatic/evangelical congregations might see the low attendances at Evensong as a sign of its lack of 'appeal'.)

If you're saying that Evensong is about providing a balance to the Eucharist, then those charismatics who place less emphasis on the Eucharist won't need it for that purpose.

And maybe CofE fans of Evensong are likely to be fans of traditional forms of (CofE) worship in general, rather than people who want to encourage cross-breeding in terms of ideas and worship styles? (OTOH, though, the CofE is so broad that hybridisation is inevitable, to judge from what I'm reading here...)

Are other denominations ever invited to take part in Evensong, or is it not considered to be a suitable service for ecumenicalism?

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

Are other denominations ever invited to take part in Evensong, or is it not considered to be a suitable service for ecumenicalism?

I don't know that it is specifically good for "ecumenicalism" - as one would have to be a fan of the choral settings to appreciate it - but there are other denominations who regularly use it. For example the Kirk in Glsagow Cathedral (IIRC) has a weekly Evensong, and I've read about various other denominations which use it.

Interestingly (again, IIRC) the CoS doesn't have as regular communion as might happen in the Anglican church - and I think they have a second communion service after Evensong when they do.

I guess that is one aspect of Evensong which might make it more widely of interest in that it is not a Eucharistic service.

I suppose that also might avoid potential issues with Ecumenical relations with other churches, maybe that's what you are implying.

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Baptist Trainfan
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Our United Service for the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity this year was a full High Church Choral Evensong with Benediction, complete with incense.

Next year it will be a Methodist service. We agreed that we would not go for the "lowest common denominator" approach but learn to appreciate other traditions. Mind you, many of us were flummoxed by the Benediction, despite an explanation.

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I think that's rubbish.

I think that's rude of you.
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Liturgylover
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quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
I have been to a Choral Evensong in a NZ city cathedral where "the first words of the service" were: "The choir is on school holidays, the Bishop and the Dean are at a conference in Sydney so tonight's service will be 'Said Evensong'"

Makes perfect sense, as has been noted on the previous page, "Evensong" being simply an old word for "Evening Prayer." You can have Morning Prayer and Evening Prayer, or you can have Mat(t)ins and Evensong. Same things. Whether they're sung or not is another matter. So "Choral Evensong" isn't redundant, and neither is "Sung Evensong."

But this may be a losing battle, as it may end up just being easier to say it's Evening Prayer when said and Evensong when sung. Sad, though, as it would mean it's been decided the traditional usage isn't worth teaching and learning anymore.

You are absolutely right. Only recently has there been a tendency to use Evening Prayer to denote said and Evensong as sung. Right up to the late 1960s my parish had daily evensong which was said. Look at parish magazines across the Anglican spectrum and it was the same.
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Liturgylover
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

Are other denominations ever invited to take part in Evensong, or is it not considered to be a suitable service for ecumenicalism?

I don't know that it is specifically good for "ecumenicalism" - as one would have to be a fan of the choral settings to appreciate it - but there are other denominations who regularly use it. For example the Kirk in Glsagow Cathedral (IIRC) has a weekly Evensong, and I've read about various other denominations which use it.

Interestingly (again, IIRC) the CoS doesn't have as regular communion as might happen in the Anglican church - and I think they have a second communion service after Evensong when they do.

I guess that is one aspect of Evensong which might make it more widely of interest in that it is not a Eucharistic service.

I suppose that also might avoid potential issues with Ecumenical relations with other churches, maybe that's what you are implying.

I know two Lutheran churches in Berlin that have choral evensong (or a variation of it) One is a rather magical service called Noonsong on Saturdays which attracts a crowd ten times larger than the regular Sunday Gottesdienst.
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Gamaliel
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I think the issue here isn't so much about charismatic churches - Anglican or otherwise - adopting Evensong specifically, as adopting more contemplative or 'quieter' styles more generally.

FWIW I think this is already taking place in some Alt.worship and 'Emerging Church' settings - although not necessarily in a parallel format to traditional Anglican evensong.

I can't imagine our local evangelical charismatic vicar entertaining evensong in any way, shape or form.

He once complained to me about how the 1662 service has the intonation of 'And make Thy chosen people joyful' in what he took to be a mournful and unjoyful way. I laughed and told him not to be so literal.

He didn't like that.

Thing is, as a son of the manse, he has a complete and utter antipathy to anything approaching traditional Anglican styles - which he sees as not being conducive to a 'move of the Spirit.'

He once told me that he felt at his most 'New Testament' during a visit with his dad to the Toronto Vineyard Fellowship in 1994. When I challenged him to show me anywhere in the NT where 'Toronto' style manifestations are clearly in evidence he simply shrugged and closed the conversation down.

So, I think it's a big ask for some charismatics to adopt a more contemplative or reflective approach - or a more liturgical one such as found in Compline or Evensong etc.

It certainly does happen with those who've been through the charismatic thing and come out the other side or who weigh charismaticism in the balance and find it wanting ...

But then, I'm also convinced there's a personality thing going on here. Some people 'get' Evensong. Others don't. Some people 'get' Benediction, others struggle with it - I know I do ...

Conversely, some people 'get' the repetitive singing of worship songs and choruses or the kind of things that go on in Hillsongs, New Frontiers or other forms of full-on charismatic expression - whilst it leaves others completely cold.

I've done both so I can see both sides of this one.

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think the issue here isn't so much about charismatic churches - Anglican or otherwise - adopting Evensong specifically, as adopting more contemplative or 'quieter' styles more generally.

FWIW I think this is already taking place in some Alt.worship and 'Emerging Church' settings - although not necessarily in a parallel format to traditional Anglican evensong.

Yes, this does make more sense.

AFAIK it's not even as if the leadership of the CofE particularly promotes Evensong as a 'good thing', so why would the people in CofE pews be expected to want it, if it's not already a part of their local church's heritage? There's no proof that it would meet with much demand in churches where it doesn't exist.

Moreover, while there might be some interest in calm, meditative worship styles, 'Evensong' as a label probably wouldn't be meaningful to the majority of people who might have such an interest. It might even put them off.

From the Methodist point of view, a service that regularly attracted so few worshippers (plus the choristers, who may or may not be 'worshipping') in so big a space would soon cease to to be held. Even within the CofE many churches have other priorities, quite reasonably, and it doesn't seem as if anything looking much like Sung Evensong could or would be done on the cheap.

[ 05. June 2016, 21:09: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
From the Methodist point of view, a service that regularly attracted so few worshippers (plus the choristers, who may or may not be 'worshipping') in so big a space would soon cease to to be held. Even within the CofE many churches have other priorities, quite reasonably, and it doesn't seem as if anything looking much like Sung Evensong could or would be done on the cheap.

I made this point here a year or two back after attending Evensong in our Parish Church, where the congregation consisted of 4 people, including the (paid) sidesman, the Vicar's mother visiting for the weekend and myself. (This is in a church which has already had 8 am Morning Prayer, 9.30 am Choral Mattins and 10.30 am Parish Eucharist, by the way).

I can't find the thread now - but the strong consensus was "that's what we Anglicans do" and even "it doesn't matter if no-one comes because the regular worship is being offered and God recognises that" (I paraphrase, you understand). I'm afraid that was a very alien view to me, as a Nonconformist. (The service was lovely, by the way).

[ 06. June 2016, 07:29: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I made this point here a year or two back after attending Evensong in our Parish Church, where the congregation consisted of 4 people, including the (paid) sidesman, the Vicar's mother visiting for the weekend and myself. (This is in a church which has already had 8 am Morning Prayer, 9.30 am Choral Mattins and 10.30 am Parish Eucharist, by the way).

Are you saying that there was a choir, the vicar, the vicar's mother, the sidesman, you and one other person? Or do you mean that the four of you and the vicar were a congregation singing the liturgy?

If the former, I guess it could be argued to be good practice for the choir.

quote:
I can't find the thread now - but the strong consensus was "that's what we Anglicans do" and even "it doesn't matter if no-one comes because the regular worship is being offered and God recognises that" (I paraphrase, you understand). I'm afraid that was a very alien view to me, as a Nonconformist. (The service was lovely, by the way).
I don't understand - you're saying that Baptists wouldn't hold regular services for four people because it wasn't "worth it"? I know personally of some churches which have been kept going for years with very small congregations, subsequently to grow rapidly.

Of course, many others dwindle and close.

But I don't understand why you don't understand the notion of keeping going in prayer even if nobody else seems to notice.

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Baptist Trainfan
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There were four of us plus the choir and Vicar. We made the said responses and sung the hymns, the choir sang the Office.

As far as Baptist churches go:

1. Yes, there are chapels in small villages which rightly continue with very small numbers. But I can't see a church which already has three services on a Sunday having another one which does not appear to be "wanted" by its members or the outside world. They'd scratch their heads and talk and pray to see if they could do something different, or change the time, or suchlike.

2. Baptist churches are, by and large, completely self-supporting. Few have endowments to - say - keep a choral tradition going. At the very least they would think twice about the costs of lighting and heating a large building for such a small congregation, quite apart from any other costs involved. As it happens, we have a small Evening Service (as well as our morning one), but it takes place in a small room rather than the main church.

3. Of course we have things like prayer meetings etc. But these are distinct from the "public services of worship". We'd be happy to have a prayer group with just a few people (although we'd hold it in a small room on church premises or in someone's home). But we'd question offering a regular Worship Service for such a small number, if we were also offering other opportunities on a Sunday. Indeed, we would tend to regard singing Evensong with no congregation as a rather pointless exercise - although I accept that the musicians may themselves be worshipping.

[ 06. June 2016, 09:17: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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mr cheesy
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Hahaha, this might be one of the reasons I'm not a Baptist. Wrong economics.

I'd suggest most of the costs you're ascribing here are fixed. So if you have already heated the building on a Sunday and have already paid for a day of the sidesperson's time and already have the choir for the more popular services, you may as well have Evensong - providing at least the choir is keen to have it continue.

I don't know about your church, and it is a long time since I've regularly attended a Baptist/Evangelical church, but in general the pattern is of two services on a Sunday and a midweek prayer meeting. The rest of the time the building (or, if there is an office in the building, the Sanctuary) is unused.

OK, yes the heating may not be on, but all the other costs of keeping a large building are fixed.

To me it makes much more sense to have as many services as humanly possible, even if some of them have very few participants, in as many different styles and tempos as can be accommodated.

Fair enough if there are limited staff or others prepared to lead, but not having small services because of the - relatively small - variable costs involved seems ridiculous to me.

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Gamaliel
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I think there's a lot in what Baptist Trainfan says, however, in the instance he cites it would appear that Evensong was part of the expected pattern - even if few people attended such a service.

Which seems to me a different thing to what SvitlanaV2 is describing ie. some kind of appetite to 'extend' the practice of Evensong to parishes or communities which don't already have it as part of their spiritual DNA or tradition.

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not aware of any instances of a dean, archdeacon or what have you rolling up somewhere and saying, 'Hmmm ... the parishes hereabouts don't have an Evensong tradition. We must address that at once and coerce them to do so ...'

As someone who has worshipped in both non-conformist settings and Anglican ones - as well as 'new church' ones - I can understand the 'non-conformist' mindset which both SvitlanaV2 and Baptist Trainfan 'demonstrate' (if I can put it that way) from their Methodist and Baptist perspectives respectively.

I'm not unsympathetic to either.

There are things that go on in the CofE that don't make any practical sense whatsoever.

But - for all the pragmatic arguments against such a thing - I can quite understand the mindset of someone who might want to continue with a particular practice because they see it as part and parcel of their Anglican (or whatever else) identity.

That doesn't make it right, wrong, good bad or indifferent ...

Some of these things only make sense from the 'inside' as it were.

I once asked an Orthodox priest why they still have the 'doors' thing in the Liturgy when the doors aren't closed any more nor are catchechumens shoo-ed out and asked to depart. 'Depart ye catechumens ... let all catechumens depart ... let no catechumens remain ...' etc etc - and you look around and no one departs, no one shuts and bolts the doors, no-one passes Go and collects their £200 ...

His answer was that it's there in case it's ever needed again in future, in the same way as most of us store lumber in our attics ...

[Big Grin]

It made sense to him, but no sense to anyone who doesn't share the same mindset.

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bib
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We have found that Choral Evensong is one of our most popular services and there are people who will attend even when it is winter and the rain is falling. I am sure the congregation would be most perturbed if we tampered with the format, and can't understand why people would want to and still call it Evensong. Just have a different service and call it something else. My experience has been that if you mess with what people know and love they will drop out and it doesn't necessarily draw new people.

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Honest Ron Bacardi
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Just on a point of information, Evensong is not a bastardisation of RC liturgy. It was a practice introduced pre-reformation to the Spanish church by Cardinal Quiñones - to whom Cranmer owed much in the formulation of the first BCP. It being an amalgamation of vespers and compline. It hasn't persisted there so far as I know.

And of course it continues in some RC ordinariate parishes.

[ 11. June 2016, 12:01: Message edited by: Honest Ron Bacardi ]

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by bib:
We have found that Choral Evensong is one of our most popular services and there are people who will attend even when it is winter and the rain is falling. I am sure the congregation would be most perturbed if we tampered with the format, and can't understand why people would want to and still call it Evensong. Just have a different service and call it something else. My experience has been that if you mess with what people know and love they will drop out and it doesn't necessarily draw new people.

I wasn't suggesting that someone should mess around with a service that's known and loved in a particular setting. My thinking was rather that it could be taken on and customised for different people in a different setting. But I've already accepted that this is unlikely to happen as I imagined it.

On a positive note, it's wonderful that Evensong is so popular where you are. That's a rare thing over here.

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ThunderBunk

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quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Just on a point of information, Evensong is not a bastardisation of RC liturgy. It was a practice introduced pre-reformation to the Spanish church by Cardinal Quiñones - to whom Cranmer owed much in the formulation of the first BCP. It being an amalgamation of vespers and compline. It hasn't persisted there so far as I know.

And of course it continues in some RC ordinariate parishes.

Fascinating - I had no idea and neither, I suspect, do many of those who hold such views this side of the pond.

On the Ordinariate point, again there may be pond differences - I would have to check, but I suspect there might.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged
venbede
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# 16669

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quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Just on a point of information, Evensong is not a bastardisation of RC liturgy.

I may have missed something but whoever said it was? It is the BCP equivalent to Vespers, with material from Compline.

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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged
Honest Ron Bacardi
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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Just on a point of information, Evensong is not a bastardisation of RC liturgy.

I may have missed something but whoever said it was? It is the BCP equivalent to Vespers, with material from Compline.
Thunderbunk did.

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Anglo-Cthulhic

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Gee D
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FWIW, I think it was Mr Cheesy.

We do a Choral Evensong one Sunday a month, with Evening Prayer said every weekday. The Evensong draws some from nearby Uniting and Catholic churches (as does a Taizé service said on a Sunday a month). A change made a couple of years ago to the usual format is that the congregation chants some responses with the choir - a very popular move, it gets the congregation more involved.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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