|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Let us be honest. Islam’s ideology is immoral to its core. Should we ask the Haigh an
|
Greatest I am
Shipmate
# 18671
|
Posted
Let us be honest. Islam’s ideology is immoral to its core. Should we ask the Haigh and U.N. to rule on the free world first duty to the world. Should we declare war against this immoral ideology?
Our collective leadership must lead by honor. Honor demands the first duty of all free people be to do their best to ensure that all the people of the world enjoy the same level of freedom that they enjoy. This is irrefutable, in terms of morality.
Freedom can only be enjoyed in a moral society.
The Haig and U.N. must rule on the duty of the free world to humanity, and decide if it is better to have all these little wars that disrupt our cities and countries, or declare a real ideological war against the barbaric and non-progressive ideology that the Eastern hordes are trying to force down the Wests throat.
As usual, religions are trying to grow themselves by the sword. A redirection is in order and quite necessary if peace is to be achieved.
We, the collective of the free world, must move the war to one of words that judge the ideologies for their moral worth, and seek to live by the best one. That verdict will determine the will of the free world as to which direction we free people wish the world to evolve to; in terms of the limits of freedom and the duty of free people.
The free world has forgotten that its first duty to the world is to work to have the whole world share in that freedom.
A war of words tends to kill fewer people than the murderous religious insurgencies we now suffer.
I think our legislators ought to consider such a strategy.
Do you?
Regards
DL
Posts: 86 | From: Canada | Registered: Sep 2016
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
|
Posted
The Haigh?
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
--------------------
"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Greatest I am
Shipmate
# 18671
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
The Haigh?
Thanks friend.
I am French and a poor proof reader.
Regards
DL
Posts: 86 | From: Canada | Registered: Sep 2016
| IP: Logged
|
|
Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
|
Posted
I'm confused as to what you're actually proposing.
If it's a "war of words" then why do we need the Hague or the U.N.'s (or anyone's) approval? Have at it.
Also I don't think those bodies have the jurisdiction you seem to think they have anyway.
I have to say I find the phrase "Eastern hordes" a bit troubling. It smacks of racism. I'd avoid language like that if I were you.
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
|
Posted
I'm also not sure who you mean by 'we'.
I do hope you don't mean the Christian church in any one or indeed all of its manifestations.
You surely can't be suggesting that the Christian world should make war on the Islamic world.
Even if Islam's ideology were immoral to its core, not a position which I accept, a good number of people would say that Christian ideology throughout the ages has shown the same amount of immorality.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
Let us be honest. Islam’s ideology is immoral to its core. Should we ask the Haigh and U.N. to rule on the free world first duty to the world. Should we declare war against this immoral ideology?
No.
quote:
Our collective leadership must lead by honor. Honor demands the first duty of all free people be to do their best to ensure that all the people of the world enjoy the same level of freedom that they enjoy. This is irrefutable, in terms of morality.
Honour determines that you don't lump a whole group of people in with others - who may only be tangetially related to them - and then punish them for something they haven't done.
I'd have thought that was rather more irrefutable than yours.
quote:
Freedom can only be enjoyed in a moral society.
The Haig and U.N. must rule on the duty of the free world to humanity, and decide if it is better to have all these little wars that disrupt our cities and countries, or declare a real ideological war against the barbaric and non-progressive ideology that the Eastern hordes are trying to force down the Wests throat.
Well for a start that is out of the jurisdiction of any of the law courts at The Hague. And it is hard to see how the UN could enforce it given the massive number of people in the world who are Muslim. How would that even work?
quote:
As usual, religions are trying to grow themselves by the sword. A redirection is in order and quite necessary if peace is to be achieved.
Well, that's quite an uncomfortable 1930s-sounding choice of word to my ears. Would you like to rephrase?
quote:
We, the collective of the free world, must move the war to one of words that judge the ideologies for their moral worth, and seek to live by the best one. That verdict will determine the will of the free world as to which direction we free people wish the world to evolve to; in terms of the limits of freedom and the duty of free people.
The free world has forgotten that its first duty to the world is to work to have the whole world share in that freedom.
I'm not sure I'm entirely understanding your manifesto, who gets to "determine the verdict" and on what basis.
quote:
A war of words tends to kill fewer people than the murderous religious insurgencies we now suffer.
I think our legislators ought to consider such a strategy.
Do you?
Regards
DL
Not in the way you've described it above, no.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
|
Posted
I don't normally think of a religion as having an "ideology". I think of it has possessing a "theology". Many people who participate in a religion also have other beliefs and preferences which might constitute an ideology, but that may be entirely separate.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Teekeey Misha
Shipmate
# 18604
|
Posted
GIa - Since you have "come to this place to War with Christians and Muslims" as you assert here, I presume you have started a thread similar to this on various Islamic websites asking them to join you in fighting against Christianity’s ideology, which is, you've assured us, also "immoral to its core."
Surely, you think "our legislators ought to consider such a strategy"?
--------------------
Misha
Don't assume I don't care; sometimes I just can't be bothered to put you right.
Posts: 296 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2016
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
|
Posted
quote:
Freedom can only be enjoyed in a moral society.
The Haig and U.N. must rule on the duty of the free world to humanity, and decide if it is better to have all these little wars that disrupt our cities and countries, or declare a real ideological war against the barbaric and non-progressive ideology that the Eastern hordes are trying to force down the Wests throat.
Considering that one reason for the rise of Islamism is because of western intervention in the Middle East, whether it be the Russian invasion of Afghanistan or the US propping the Shah in Iran, or the rather cozy relationship American politicians have with Saudi Arabia, it might be more the case of the West forcing down the East's throat.
The world is a lot more complicated and exists in shades of the grey that the black and white picture you paint.
--------------------
It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
ADMIN NOTE
Greatest I am,
We note that this is now the third thread you have started here. And, on both of your previous threads there are a substantial number of comments and questions from others that you haven't responded to.
Starting another thread without showing others the courtesy of responding to what they have said creates an impression that you are not really interested in discussing with others. The obvious alternative to that is that you are here to just preach your particular viewpoint. That is what we here call "crusading", and the Commandments you agreed to abide by when you signed up here explicitly forbid that
quote:
8. Don't crusade
Don't use these boards to promote personal crusades. This space is not here for people to pursue specific agendas and win converts.
Kindly engage with the questions and comments of others, or else we will be forced to conclude that you are here to promote a personal agenda.
Alan
Ship of Fools Admin
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Greatest I am
Shipmate
# 18671
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Paul.:
[QB] I'm confused as to what you're actually proposing.
If it's a "war of words" then why do we need the Hague or the U.N.'s (or anyone's) approval? Have at it.
]
It is a matter of world wide human rights and the duty of free people to insure that all people are free. That would include freedom of speech.
If the U.N. can consider bills as shown here,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=UTdKxCz2FIQ
The U.N. can also consider having a moral right for children not to be indoctrinated into an immoral creed. That could well be considered child abuse.
Shall I get you some Islamist links to their teaching their children to hate all those not Muslim?
Regards
DL
Posts: 86 | From: Canada | Registered: Sep 2016
| IP: Logged
|
|
Greatest I am
Shipmate
# 18671
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
I'm also not sure who you mean by 'we'.
I do hope you don't mean the Christian church in any one or indeed all of its manifestations.
You surely can't be suggesting that the Christian world should make war on the Islamic world.
Even if Islam's ideology were immoral to its core, not a position which I accept, a good number of people would say that Christian ideology throughout the ages has shown the same amount of immorality.
No argument as both Christianity has grown themselves with the sword instead of good deeds.
Christianity though has been brought to heel.
Islam refuses to be. It lacks honor.
Yes, I am saying that if Christians did as Jesus suggests and warred with words against evil, evil would not stand. I would include the Muslims who respect Jesus as a better prophet than Muhammad.
I would say that to all good moral people.
Regards
DL
Posts: 86 | From: Canada | Registered: Sep 2016
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
hosting/
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
Shall I get you some Islamist links to their teaching their children to hate all those not Muslim?
No.
/hosting
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Greatest I am
Shipmate
# 18671
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
Let us be honest. Islam’s ideology is immoral to its core. Should we ask the Haigh and U.N. to rule on the free world first duty to the world. Should we declare war against this immoral ideology?
No.
quote:
Our collective leadership must lead by honor. Honor demands the first duty of all free people be to do their best to ensure that all the people of the world enjoy the same level of freedom that they enjoy. This is irrefutable, in terms of morality.
Honour determines that you don't lump a whole group of people in with others - who may only be tangetially related to them - and then punish them for something they haven't done.
I'd have thought that was rather more irrefutable than yours.
quote:
Freedom can only be enjoyed in a moral society.
The Haig and U.N. must rule on the duty of the free world to humanity, and decide if it is better to have all these little wars that disrupt our cities and countries, or declare a real ideological war against the barbaric and non-progressive ideology that the Eastern hordes are trying to force down the Wests throat.
Well for a start that is out of the jurisdiction of any of the law courts at The Hague. And it is hard to see how the UN could enforce it given the massive number of people in the world who are Muslim. How would that even work?
quote:
As usual, religions are trying to grow themselves by the sword. A redirection is in order and quite necessary if peace is to be achieved.
Well, that's quite an uncomfortable 1930s-sounding choice of word to my ears. Would you like to rephrase?
quote:
We, the collective of the free world, must move the war to one of words that judge the ideologies for their moral worth, and seek to live by the best one. That verdict will determine the will of the free world as to which direction we free people wish the world to evolve to; in terms of the limits of freedom and the duty of free people.
The free world has forgotten that its first duty to the world is to work to have the whole world share in that freedom.
I'm not sure I'm entirely understanding your manifesto, who gets to "determine the verdict" and on what basis.
quote:
A war of words tends to kill fewer people than the murderous religious insurgencies we now suffer.
I think our legislators ought to consider such a strategy.
Do you?
Regards
DL
Not in the way you've described it above, no.
Do you think Islam's ideology is a moral one?
If so, so, ok.
If not, how would you propose we rid ourselves of it?
Regards
DL
Posts: 86 | From: Canada | Registered: Sep 2016
| IP: Logged
|
|
Greatest I am
Shipmate
# 18671
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
I don't normally think of a religion as having an "ideology". I think of it has possessing a "theology". Many people who participate in a religion also have other beliefs and preferences which might constitute an ideology, but that may be entirely separate.
Whatever you would name Islam and Sharia, do you see it as a moral whatever?
Regards
DL
Posts: 86 | From: Canada | Registered: Sep 2016
| IP: Logged
|
|
Greatest I am
Shipmate
# 18671
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
GIa - Since you have "come to this place to War with Christians and Muslims" as you assert here, I presume you have started a thread similar to this on various Islamic websites asking them to join you in fighting against Christianity’s ideology, which is, you've assured us, also "immoral to its core."
Surely, you think "our legislators ought to consider such a strategy"?
I have only one Islamist site that has not banned me. They do not tolerate any disrespect. Only Catholic sites and the literalist fundamentalist are worse.
You are right though about the Christian ideology.
If they did not ignore most of the worst, secular forces would have had to come down on them as hard as the had previously come down on the non-Christians.
We would, of course, not be as blood thirsty.
Regards
DL
[ 30. September 2016, 22:18: Message edited by: Greatest I am ]
Posts: 86 | From: Canada | Registered: Sep 2016
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
Let us be honest. Islam’s ideology is immoral to its core.
Let us be honest. This is no way to set up an actual debate.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Greatest I am
Shipmate
# 18671
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
quote:
Freedom can only be enjoyed in a moral society.
The Haig and U.N. must rule on the duty of the free world to humanity, and decide if it is better to have all these little wars that disrupt our cities and countries, or declare a real ideological war against the barbaric and non-progressive ideology that the Eastern hordes are trying to force down the Wests throat.
Considering that one reason for the rise of Islamism is because of western intervention in the Middle East, whether it be the Russian invasion of Afghanistan or the US propping the Shah in Iran, or the rather cozy relationship American politicians have with Saudi Arabia, it might be more the case of the West forcing down the East's throat.
The world is a lot more complicated and exists in shades of the grey that the black and white picture you paint.
I agree with all but your last.
I think that if the West had a higher sense of duty and honor, thy would pull all forces back home and see if the expenditures towards their military forces are well spent in terms of peace keeping or not.
Let other countries solve their own problem.
That or enforce morality through the U.N.
Regards
DL
Posts: 86 | From: Canada | Registered: Sep 2016
| IP: Logged
|
|
Greatest I am
Shipmate
# 18671
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
ADMIN NOTE
Greatest I am,
We note that this is now the third thread you have started here. And, on both of your previous threads there are a substantial number of comments and questions from others that you haven't responded to.
Starting another thread without showing others the courtesy of responding to what they have said creates an impression that you are not really interested in discussing with others. The obvious alternative to that is that you are here to just preach your particular viewpoint. That is what we here call "crusading", and the Commandments you agreed to abide by when you signed up here explicitly forbid that
quote:
8. Don't crusade
Don't use these boards to promote personal crusades. This space is not here for people to pursue specific agendas and win converts.
Kindly engage with the questions and comments of others, or else we will be forced to conclude that you are here to promote a personal agenda.
Alan
Ship of Fools Admin
I answer where I think an answer is required and if I miss a pertinent point I expect to be reminded.
I am still in all my threads so I am easy to find.
Regards
DL
Posts: 86 | From: Canada | Registered: Sep 2016
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
That or enforce morality through the U.N
You seem a bit confused about what the UN actually is.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
A google on the first paragraph of the OP indicates that this masterpiece has been posted on numerous other sites as well. Though, interestingly, with alternative spellings of "Hague".
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Teekeey Misha
Shipmate
# 18604
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
You are right though about the Christian ideology.
How can I be right about Christian ideology when I haven't commented on it? I have only quoted you.
Needless to say, I don't think you are "right right about Christian ideology". There is, of course, no point my saying so; it will just be another of the posts you "carefully ignore".
--------------------
Misha
Don't assume I don't care; sometimes I just can't be bothered to put you right.
Posts: 296 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2016
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
A google on the first paragraph of the OP indicates that this masterpiece has been posted on numerous other sites as well. Though, interestingly, with alternative spellings of "Hague".
Is THAT what he meant? I thought for sure he was talking about the Haigh Tashberry.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Is THAT what he meant? I thought for sure he was talking about the Haigh Tashberry.
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
--------------------
"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Is THAT what he meant? I thought for sure he was talking about the Haigh Tashberry.
Honestly, I googled that to see if it was maybe a brand of Ben And Jerry's, along the lines of Cherry Garcia.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
Let us be honest. Islam’s ideology is immoral to its core.
Let us be honest. This is no way to set up an actual debate.
Your very first statement is prejudiced and incorrect.
Islam is a religion of peace, respect, compassion, not so different from Christianity.
The 'Islamists' who are committing such horrendous crimes are distorting the message in order to further their own desire for power – many of them, it has been suggested, are disaffected young men (and romantic young women) who are totally disconnected from traditional Islam.
Sure there have been periods when Muslims have fought wars against Christians – but who were the most vicious warriors in the Crusades, who slaughtered Jews and eastern Christians on their way to the Holy Land?
GG
--------------------
The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
I have only one Islamist site that has not banned me. They do not tolerate any disrespect. Only Catholic sites and the literalist fundamentalist are worse. ...
So you've come here because you think we might be nicer and might not mind being dissed so much? Or are you assuming that we should feel it is our Christian duty to turn the other cheek? Or are you testing us to see how long we will go on doing that for?
Have you reflected, though, that a series of dogmatic assertions and accusations against things that are important to those you are presumably trying to persuade, might not be the most effective way of winning friends and influencing people?
Have you reflected also, that an unmoderated confidence in one's own judgement, spiritual particularity etc might not be the best place to start if one eventually wants to find what is really true, or as you would presumably put it, the gnosis?
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
Do you think Islam's ideology is a moral one?
That's a stupid question, on the level of asking whether I think all apples are red.
I could ask you to define all the terms you are using, but I get the impression you tend to like asking questions more than answering them.
quote:
If so, so, ok.
What is that supposed to mean?
quote:
If not, how would you propose we rid ourselves of it?
See, I have a big problem with the idea that the world needs ridding of something you don't like but equates to a large proportion of the population of the planet.
As I've already said, that's the kind of language we got in 1930s Germany.
Why are you using that kind of language? What is so awful about Islam as a religion that you are prepared to use that kind of language?
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Russ
Old salt
# 120
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
Honor demands the first duty of all free people be to do their best to ensure that all the people of the world enjoy the same level of freedom that they enjoy. This is irrefutable, in terms of morality.
Freedom can only be enjoyed in a moral society.
So the name of your God is Honor. And in obedience to Honor's commandment you think the West should impose Western ideas of "freedom" on the East ? Which doesn't include the freedom to worship Allah ?
How is your position any more moral than the jihadists' position ? You consider your God to be "true" and theirs false; they would say the same in reverse.
Maybe the "first duty" is to leave other people alone to do what seems good to them...
--------------------
Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
Let us be honest. Islam’s ideology is immoral to its core. Should we ask the Haigh and U.N. to rule on the free world first duty to the world. Should we declare war against this immoral ideology?
Our collective leadership must lead by honor. Honor demands the first duty of all free people be to do their best to ensure that all the people of the world enjoy the same level of freedom that they enjoy. This is irrefutable, in terms of morality.
Freedom can only be enjoyed in a moral society.
The Haig and U.N. must rule on the duty of the free world to humanity, and decide if it is better to have all these little wars that disrupt our cities and countries, or declare a real ideological war against the barbaric and non-progressive ideology that the Eastern hordes are trying to force down the Wests throat.
As usual, religions are trying to grow themselves by the sword. A redirection is in order and quite necessary if peace is to be achieved.
We, the collective of the free world, must move the war to one of words that judge the ideologies for their moral worth, and seek to live by the best one. That verdict will determine the will of the free world as to which direction we free people wish the world to evolve to; in terms of the limits of freedom and the duty of free people.
The free world has forgotten that its first duty to the world is to work to have the whole world share in that freedom.
A war of words tends to kill fewer people than the murderous religious insurgencies we now suffer.
I think our legislators ought to consider such a strategy.
Do you?
Regards
DL
No.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
GIa - Since you have "come to this place to War with Christians and Muslims" as you assert here, I presume you have started a thread similar to this on various Islamic websites asking them to join you in fighting against Christianity’s ideology, which is, you've assured us, also "immoral to its core."
Surely, you think "our legislators ought to consider such a strategy"?
I have only one Islamist site that has not banned me. They do not tolerate any disrespect. Only Catholic sites and the literalist fundamentalist are worse.
You are right though about the Christian ideology.
If they did not ignore most of the worst, secular forces would have had to come down on them as hard as the had previously come down on the non-Christians.
We would, of course, not be as blood thirsty.
Regards
DL
How did we win the Second World War?
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
BabyWombat
Shipmate
# 18552
|
Posted
In my years in health care I have worked closely with Muslims (and this in a rural setting where one might expect such to be rare): they were lovely, peaceful, caring professionals focused on doing good and bringing healing and health to their patients, most of whom were Christian or Jewish.
In my current clerical placement our neighboring UU pastor also has ordination (or whatever it is called in the sect) as an Islamic Sufi leader. She is a gentle, kind and giving individual passionate for justice and peace for everyone. She is a trusted colleague.
The Fred Phelps folk were Christian, and did evil things (not reopening that debate, which is on the Hell thread). ISIS and their ilk are Muslims, and do evil things (of greater ferocity and impact.)
IMHO we know people by their works, their actions in our midst. To call for a ban on a religious tradition solely based on the actions of a few… well, we’d all be left without religion, for I suspect there is not one that has fallen short of the original ideal.
--------------------
Let us, with a gladsome mind…..
Posts: 102 | From: US | Registered: Feb 2016
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
|
Posted
We have hosted two Muslim students over the past six years. We have found both of them very moral. Since your first proposition is not proven, all else is false.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
|
Posted
My answer to the OP is no and it is obviously a wind up.
However, while I buy my vitamins from a guy who I think went on the Haj last year, and we get on fine, that does still beg the question of the ideology of Islam. As soon as you get to know someone, they stop being 'other' and start being John or Sue.
ISTM that all racism,sexism and hateful 'otherness' happens from a distance.
However, if there is a constitutional mandate for enforcing Sharia anywhere, then stuff that, I want to sign up to stop it.
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wesley J
Silly Shipmate
# 6075
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
A google on the first paragraph of the OP indicates that this masterpiece has been posted on numerous other sites as well. Though, interestingly, with alternative spellings of "Hague".
Good observation, Stetson. Yep, at least three others.
ETA: Nope, make that four!
ETA ETA: Five!!
[ 02. October 2016, 02:19: Message edited by: Wesley J ]
--------------------
Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wesley J
Silly Shipmate
# 6075
|
Posted
Ok, I give up: 9 other sites, found by putting the first two sentences in inverted commas. - How can anyone keep up with discussions on at least 10 different sites at the same time?
But please, carry on.
--------------------
Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BabyWombat:
In my current clerical placement our neighboring UU pastor also has ordination (or whatever it is called in the sect) as an Islamic Sufi leader. She is a gentle, kind and giving individual passionate for justice and peace for everyone. She is a trusted colleague.
Interesting. I've heard of a Sufi sect where you don't have to be Muslim at all. I don't know how the rest of Sufism feels about that.
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
The type and reach of Islam obviously varies a lot, even in the Western countries where most of us on this website live. It's possible that the OP reflects anxieties borne out of difficult local conditions.
Be that as it may, even if we agreed with the OP I can't see how 'we' would get rid of Islam. It's not a small, tribal religion. It's followers are youthful on the whole, and they don't fear the non-Muslim world.
To engage in a war against all Muslims would only create more bloodshed and antagonism. That surely goes without saying. As things stand, the theological and ethical arguments would also destroy Christian and secular communities.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
What a ghastly OP. Talk of Islam's 'ideology' is completely unsupported, and phrases such as 'declaring war' and 'Eastern hordes' are disgusting.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Greatest I am
Shipmate
# 18671
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
Let us be honest. Islam’s ideology is immoral to its core.
Let us be honest. This is no way to set up an actual debate.
Your very first statement is prejudiced and incorrect.
Islam is a religion of peace, respect, compassion, not so different from Christianity.
The 'Islamists' who are committing such horrendous crimes are distorting the message in order to further their own desire for power – many of them, it has been suggested, are disaffected young men (and romantic young women) who are totally disconnected from traditional Islam.
Sure there have been periods when Muslims have fought wars against Christians – but who were the most vicious warriors in the Crusades, who slaughtered Jews and eastern Christians on their way to the Holy Land?
GG
Look again for the first time.
http://www.therebel.media/tiffany_gabbay_april_19
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pSPvnFDDQHk
Regards
DL
Posts: 86 | From: Canada | Registered: Sep 2016
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
Let us be honest. Islam’s ideology is immoral to its core.
Let us be honest. This is no way to set up an actual debate.
Your very first statement is prejudiced and incorrect.
Islam is a religion of peace, respect, compassion, not so different from Christianity.
The 'Islamists' who are committing such horrendous crimes are distorting the message in order to further their own desire for power – many of them, it has been suggested, are disaffected young men (and romantic young women) who are totally disconnected from traditional Islam.
Sure there have been periods when Muslims have fought wars against Christians – but who were the most vicious warriors in the Crusades, who slaughtered Jews and eastern Christians on their way to the Holy Land?
GG
Look again for the first time.
http://www.therebel.media/tiffany_gabbay_april_19
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pSPvnFDDQHk
Regards
DL
How can one look again for the first time?
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Greatest I am
Shipmate
# 18671
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
I have only one Islamist site that has not banned me. They do not tolerate any disrespect. Only Catholic sites and the literalist fundamentalist are worse. ...
So you've come here because you think we might be nicer and might not mind being dissed so much? Or are you assuming that we should feel it is our Christian duty to turn the other cheek? Or are you testing us to see how long we will go on doing that for?
Have you reflected, though, that a series of dogmatic assertions and accusations against things that are important to those you are presumably trying to persuade, might not be the most effective way of winning friends and influencing people?
Have you reflected also, that an unmoderated confidence in one's own judgement, spiritual particularity etc might not be the best place to start if one eventually wants to find what is really true, or as you would presumably put it, the gnosis?
I know enough about truth to know that all clergy are liars as they speak of things they cannot possibly know.
And yes, I am quite comfortable with that judgement.
Regards
DL
Posts: 86 | From: Canada | Registered: Sep 2016
| IP: Logged
|
|
Greatest I am
Shipmate
# 18671
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
[QUOTE]
Why are you using that kind of language? What is so awful about Islam as a religion that you are prepared to use that kind of language?
Have you been living in seclusion somewhere?
How long a list would you like?
Regards
DL
Posts: 86 | From: Canada | Registered: Sep 2016
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
I know enough about truth to know that all clergy are liars as they speak of things they cannot possibly know.
Would you care to enlighten us by imparting some of your knowledge of this truth of which you speak?
In your survey of clergy, did you get 100% coverage or did you use a statistical sample (and an extrapolation thereof) to ascertain their levels of honesty? Did you also do this across denominations including those who tend not to refer to leaders/teachers as "clergy" or did you stick to only those who habitually use the term?
Epistemologically, how do you justify the term 'possibly' in your statement. How have you established the limits of knowledge?
--------------------
I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Greatest I am
Shipmate
# 18671
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
Honor demands the first duty of all free people be to do their best to ensure that all the people of the world enjoy the same level of freedom that they enjoy. This is irrefutable, in terms of morality.
Freedom can only be enjoyed in a moral society.
So the name of your God is Honor. And in obedience to Honor's commandment you think the West should impose Western ideas of "freedom" on the East ? Which doesn't include the freedom to worship Allah ?
How is your position any more moral than the jihadists' position ? You consider your God to be "true" and theirs false; they would say the same in reverse.
Maybe the "first duty" is to leave other people alone to do what seems good to them...
For evil to grow, all good people need do is nothing.
A shame though that you do not recognize the first duty of a free person.
You put a lot of words in my mouth. Please stop.
I am more concerned with out ability to criticize Allah than whether he is a moral God or not.
Note how the free press is forced into silenced and self censorship by threats from a religion of peace whenever a new cartoon is printed.
Regards
DL
Posts: 86 | From: Canada | Registered: Sep 2016
| IP: Logged
|
|
Greatest I am
Shipmate
# 18671
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BabyWombat:
In my years in health care I have worked closely with Muslims (and this in a rural setting where one might expect such to be rare): they were lovely, peaceful, caring professionals focused on doing good and bringing healing and health to their patients, most of whom were Christian or Jewish.
In my current clerical placement our neighboring UU pastor also has ordination (or whatever it is called in the sect) as an Islamic Sufi leader. She is a gentle, kind and giving individual passionate for justice and peace for everyone. She is a trusted colleague.
The Fred Phelps folk were Christian, and did evil things (not reopening that debate, which is on the Hell thread). ISIS and their ilk are Muslims, and do evil things (of greater ferocity and impact.)
IMHO we know people by their works, their actions in our midst. To call for a ban on a religious tradition solely based on the actions of a few… well, we’d all be left without religion, for I suspect there is not one that has fallen short of the original ideal.
Anecdotal renderings are always interesting but not as interesting as the statistics of evil shown for the religion you like.
I guess that you have yet to look at their practices from a moral POV.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pSPvnFDDQHk
Regards
DL
Posts: 86 | From: Canada | Registered: Sep 2016
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
I have only one Islamist site that has not banned me. They do not tolerate any disrespect. Only Catholic sites and the literalist fundamentalist are worse. ...
So you've come here because you think we might be nicer and might not mind being dissed so much? Or are you assuming that we should feel it is our Christian duty to turn the other cheek? Or are you testing us to see how long we will go on doing that for?
Have you reflected, though, that a series of dogmatic assertions and accusations against things that are important to those you are presumably trying to persuade, might not be the most effective way of winning friends and influencing people?
Have you reflected also, that an unmoderated confidence in one's own judgement, spiritual particularity etc might not be the best place to start if one eventually wants to find what is really true, or as you would presumably put it, the gnosis?
I know enough about truth to know that all clergy are liars as they speak of things they cannot possibly know.
And yes, I am quite comfortable with that judgement.
Regards
DL
Then you ae in good company.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am:
Honor demands the first duty of all free people be to do their best to ensure that all the people of the world enjoy the same level of freedom that they enjoy. This is irrefutable, in terms of morality.
Freedom can only be enjoyed in a moral society.
So the name of your God is Honor. And in obedience to Honor's commandment you think the West should impose Western ideas of "freedom" on the East ? Which doesn't include the freedom to worship Allah ?
How is your position any more moral than the jihadists' position ? You consider your God to be "true" and theirs false; they would say the same in reverse.
Maybe the "first duty" is to leave other people alone to do what seems good to them...
For evil to grow, all good people need do is nothing.
A shame though that you do not recognize the first duty of a free person.
You put a lot of words in my mouth. Please stop.
I am more concerned with out ability to criticize Allah than whether he is a moral God or not.
Note how the free press is forced into silenced and self censorship by threats from a religion of peace whenever a new cartoon is printed.
Regards
DL
We will if you will.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Printer-friendly view
