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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Trump's Evangelical Endorsers
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
One of the leading lights of Donald Trump's 'Evangelical Executive Committee', Robert Morris, will be 'preaching' at HTB this Sunday—just two days before the US election at a church popular with London US expats. It's a miracle!
This is only one of several of Nicky Gumbel's Trump-supporting pals to speak at an HTB event. Anyone planning a protest?
K.
[Title change to reflect broadening of discussion]
[ 16. November 2016, 16:36: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
WTF? Link, please....
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Oh sorry! I messed up the code. One moment please…
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
This link will take you there, but it's one of those accordion-type websites (but, alas, doesn't play polkas).
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Is the CoE allowed to play politics like that?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Is the CoE allowed to play politics like that?
Nicky tries to stand at the edge of the CoE. Both he and (his predecessor) Sandy Millar, frequently invited political guests to speak at events. Tony Blair (ok, a far cry from Donald Trump!) spoke at the HTB leadership conference a few years ago, but this is the horse of a different colour.
I'd be surprised if the ABC would approve of this—and the timing of it is very worrying.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I think a certain brand of evangelical in particular, perhaps because of their naivety, are constantly falling into the trap of believing that because they have got some high-powered politician on the platform, they are having an influence in the corridors of power, being the prophets to the king, and so on; whereas in most if not all cases, they are simply being played for votes.
[ 03. November 2016, 16:24: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I think a certain brand of evangelical in particular, perhaps because of their naivety, are constantly falling into the trap of believing that because they have got some high-powered politician on the platform, they are having an influence in the corridors of power, being the prophets to the king, and so on; whereas in most if not all cases, they are simply being played for votes.
It's a pity, really.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
*Devil's advocate hat on*
Might there not be a jumping to a conclusion here? The website doesn't state what it is he's talking about.
Plus, what if he is talking politics? Should churches have a ban on people talking politics? Christianity is political. His kind of politics might be the kind we disagree with, but what if we want to preach the 'love your neighbour' politics that we find much more palatable than the 'grab them by the pussy' politics? If we seek to pre-emptively condemn or lodge a protest does that not open us up to criticism if we say: quote:
"For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes. He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the foreigner residing among you, giving them food and clothing. And you are to love those who are foreigners, for you yourselves were foreigners in Egypt."
Would it not be better to hear what he has to say and assess him on that?
*Devil's advocate hat off*
That said, what's the point in a career spent preaching against antichrists if you then go and endorse one for president?
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I went there mentally, Sipech, and came back.
Having Tony Blair speak at a random leadership conference is just about plausible. Having a pastor who is a member of Trump's Evangelical Executive Advisory Board preach multiple times - on the Sunday before US Election day - is blatantly political no matter how you look at it.
I have worked on an expenses-paid basis interpreting for Alpha international leaders' conferences a couple of times now, basically to see how much of it I can stand from the safe distance of a translation booth. I have an invitation to go again next year and this news from Komensky has given me pause.
But then again, a boycott is political too. Politics in France is trying to court the Christian vote, too, now (here* is the latest campaign poster for one of the right-wing primary candidates).
What I really hate about this divisive climate is that it is forcing me to mix faith and party politics ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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*The name of this Christian Democrat obviously means "fish" and that ichthus is probably a dog-whistle for Catholics first and foremost, but I'm sure he won't turn down any spare evos.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
In all fairness, what Sipech said.
But it stinks, nevertheless. HTB may, whatever Morris speaks about, be seen to be endorsing Trump. Still, HTB seems these days to be almost a separate denomination, so I doubt if the ABC would have any influence...
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
That said, what's the point in a career spent preaching against antichrists if you then go and endorse one for president?
I can't immediately find out if Morris has endorsed Trump. In a "in Soviet Russia, candidate endorses YOU" moment, the Trump campaign statement says: quote:
The leaders on the executive board were not asked to endorse Mr. Trump as a prerequisite for participating on the board.
Rather, the formation of the board represents Donald J. Trump’s endorsement of those diverse issues important to Evangelicals and other Christians
Though of course agreeing to be on the board is at least a tacit endorsement of some kind.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Amateur hour at the zoo, frankly. There's an election on Tuesday. He's going to be on the wrong continent on Sunday. Talking to a bunch of people, most of whom can't vote for Trump and a lot of whom wouldn't anyway, instead of being in a mega-church in a swing state convincing the doubters that voting for Trump is the only way of getting a conservative justice on the Supreme Court, or whatever the rationale is for why Jesus wants a certifiable maniac in charge of the world's largest nuclear arsenal.
It's not the evil that appals me. It's the sheer fucking unprofessionalism. It's the sort of thing Jeremy Corbyn would do.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
As Eutychus has said (suggested?!), it's hard to believe the timing is accidental.
This article from Christianity Today (hardly a Lefty organ) gives a flavour of the pack.
As a former member of HTB (who still has friends their), NG is getting very cozy with American right-wing evangelicals. In addition to Joyce Meyer, they are also involving preachers from the Joel Osteen brand.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
That might actually be a calculation on Morris' part. A little reading around suggests he's stopped short of outright endorsement. Being out of the country at a strategic time sounds like a good place to be if hedging one's bets.
HTB will be excited because it looks all newsy and stuff, meanwhile Morris will be able to bask in reflected glory if Trump wins, but distance himself from Trump after the event if he doesn't.
[ETA: I was responding to Callan]
[ 03. November 2016, 17:34: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
From Komensky's linked article: quote:
Gateway Church created the Vote Under God website in 2016, which encourages Christians to vote. Gateway is aiming for 100 percent voter participation among its 36,000 members this fall. Morris identifies the definition of marriage, the right to life, government vs. private health care, the national debt, and religious freedoms as key issues.
I think that tells you which way they want that 100% turnout to vote.
The deal-breaker, though, must surely be this:
quote:
Morris... is on the board of Mark Driscoll’s new Trinity Church in Arizona.
I heard one of Meyer's talks at Alpha Leaders in 2015. I have to say she's a good preacher, and didn't say anything I took exception to. Benefiting from her preaching (via cassette, eons ago) also indirectly played a pivotal role in me reversing my position on women's ministry, so she has that going for her.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Amateur hour at the zoo, frankly. There's an election on Tuesday. He's going to be on the wrong continent on Sunday. Talking to a bunch of people, most of whom can't vote for Trump and a lot of whom wouldn't anyway, instead of being in a mega-church in a swing state convincing the doubters that voting for Trump is the only way of getting a conservative justice on the Supreme Court, or whatever the rationale is for why Jesus wants a certifiable maniac in charge of the world's largest nuclear arsenal.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
My thoughts, too (although I don't think I could've expressed it so well). I can't imagine US voters caring about who's preaching at HTB. In fact, even though I knew about Alpha and Nicky Gumbel, it took me a while to think of what HTB stood for. Seeing Nicky's name is what helped me with that. But most US folks have never heard of him and US evangelicals would be suspicious of a church that's technically CofE no matter how on the fringes it is. At least I think... but I've really lost the ability to understand what US evangelicals will do or believe anymore.
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
That might actually be a calculation on Morris' part. A little reading around suggests he's stopped short of outright endorsement. Being out of the country at a strategic time sounds like a good place to be if hedging one's bets.
HTB will be excited because it looks all newsy and stuff, meanwhile Morris will be able to bask in reflected glory if Trump wins, but distance himself from Trump after the event if he doesn't.
[ETA: I was responding to Callan]
Ah, shades of John Major booking himself in for some dental work when Mrs T. was fighting for her political life. That makes sense from his POV.
Not sure what HTB get out of it. I recently had occasion to spend some time among HTBers and I doubt that many of them are Trump fans and certainly not the younger element and very certainly not the women. Archbishop Justin, the most prominent HTBer in public life, is by no means insensitive to the fact that if we are not careful we (the C of E) might end up giving the impression to the unaffiliated that we are a bunch of cock-wombles and is basically sound on the nationalist question - he came out in favour of Remain. So I doubt that Brer Morris, let alone Trump, is his particular cup of lukewarm beverage. If the older generation do decide that they want to play pat-a-cake with the alt-right they may find themselves with a blazing row on their hands. Let us hope that there was nothing more sinister than naivety is at work. HTB is the one resounding success story in the C of E in recent years and in my recent interactions with them, I found that I rather liked them. So when I say that I hope the weekend passes without incident and is not repeated I am not concern trolling.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
He's going to be on the wrong continent on Sunday. Talking to a bunch of people, most of whom can't vote for Trump and a lot of whom wouldn't anyway, instead of being in a mega-church in a swing state convincing the doubters that voting for Trump is the only way of getting a conservative justice on the Supreme Court, or whatever the rationale is for why Jesus wants a certifiable maniac in charge of the world's largest nuclear arsenal.
He couldn't explicitly* stump for Trump at an American church, mega- or not, without endangering that church's tax-exempt status. Maybe that's why he's stumping in England.
*He could almost go there, talking about the need to vote in a way to ensure the unborn will be protected, etc., but he couldn't go so far as to say "vote for Trump."
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I accept I don't know the full fact. Nevertheless, if this man is a Trump advocate. I have a problem with his being allowed to occupy a pulpit on any other basis than 'explain yourself'.
I've no idea whether this chap is coming over here to campaign for Trump among non-domiciled voters, but it strikes me that this is one of the very rare occasions when one can say that it isn't just stupid to vote for Trump, but is actually a sin, wickedness.
I've said before on these threads, that the only people for whom that might not be the case, are his relatives who might feel that family loyalty obliges them to vote for him.
Those church leaders who are embracing Trump because they think he's more likely to give them one or two single issue causes that they have equated with the totality of the Christian gospel are trying to make a bargain that they should know better than to have anything to do with.
This may seem to some shipmates an over simplistic view, but this is a very, very rare and unusual situation, and it's a view I'm sticking to.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
He couldn't explicitly* stump for Trump at an American church, mega- or not, without endangering that church's tax-exempt status. Maybe that's why he's stumping in England.
Is he actually likely to be stumping in England? I was under the impression that overseas voters were likely to have a postal vote that would have to be placed well in advance of the event?
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I heard one of Meyer's talks at Alpha Leaders in 2015. I have to say she's a good preacher, and didn't say anything I took exception to.
AFAICT the issues with her are around her rather over-realized view of the Christian life, and her embrace of Word of Faith/Seed Faith style teachings. I imagine that these are least likely to come out when speaking to leaders.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
He couldn't explicitly* stump for Trump at an American church, mega- or not, without endangering that church's tax-exempt status. Maybe that's why he's stumping in England.
*He could almost go there, talking about the need to vote in a way to ensure the unborn will be protected, etc., but he couldn't go so far as to say "vote for Trump."
Nick could I ask you a question? It is normal round here, where churches are quite often the easiest available large public spaces, to hold hustings in churches and invite candidates each to present their cases to the assembled public, and often to answer questions. It is also normally taken for granted that all the candidates attend on the same basis.
From what you say, would that be illegal in the US? Or would it only put a church's tax-exempt status at risk if appeared to endorse the candidate it liked by only giving him or her the opportunity and not all extending it to all the others.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I think it is illegal in the US for a church to explicitly endorse a candidate. It is OK to invite a pol to speak, just like it is OK to invite a postman, an academic, etc. Nor can the church control what is done outside its premises; many a time I have come out from my church and found a political leaflet tucked under my windshield wiper. The assumption is that, in attending this church, I am a good prospect for whatever cause it is.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
From what you say, would that be illegal in the US? Or would it only put a church's tax-exempt status at risk if appeared to endorse the candidate it liked by only giving him or her the opportunity and not all extending it to all the others.
The latter. Hosting or encouraging political discussion is fine. Taking a position on an election or endorsing a specific candidate is not.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Amateur hour at the zoo, frankly. There's an election on Tuesday. He's going to be on the wrong continent on Sunday. Talking to a bunch of people, most of whom can't vote for Trump and a lot of whom wouldn't anyway, instead of being in a mega-church in a swing state convincing the doubters that voting for Trump is the only way of getting a conservative justice on the Supreme Court, or whatever the rationale is for why Jesus wants a certifiable maniac in charge of the world's largest nuclear arsenal.
Personally, I think the notion of taking a speaking engagement-- any speaking engagement-- overseas this week sounds freakin' brilliant. Get out of town now before the **** hits the fan. Anyone need a D-list left-wing evangelical to speak at their rotary club/ ladies' guild/ boy scout troop this week???
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
You could always take my slot back home this Sunday: I'm preaching out of town and doing an afternoon session on Revelation, or the Apocalypse as it's known here,
I think the timing is coincidental, but the temptation to talk about, and suitably interpret, beasts with ten horns and so on may prove irresistible...
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
That might actually be a calculation on Morris' part. A little reading around suggests he's stopped short of outright endorsement. Being out of the country at a strategic time sounds like a good place to be if hedging one's bets.
HTB will be excited because it looks all newsy and stuff, meanwhile Morris will be able to bask in reflected glory if Trump wins, but distance himself from Trump after the event if he doesn't.
[ETA: I was responding to Callan]
This sounds utterly sinister to me. Morris has openly and willingly joined a foul, racist and bigoted political movement. He can't be let off such a serious breach so lightly.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I suppose I shouldn't really care, but this is a pretty stupid move on the part of Holy Trinity Brompton.
There have always been British evangelicals who have to some extent brushed noses with the more extreme USAmerican evangelicals - usually operating within the subset of creationism, anti-abortionism and/or Northern Irish style Paisley-ism - however for the last 20 years, HTB has generally projected a message that they're friendly and above such things. So Alpha was extended to include Roman Catholics and so on.
By engaging with idiots who seem to give time to other extremist Conservative Evangelicals, then HTB can't help looking like an outfit that is giving them some level of legitimacy. By lauding someone who is this close to Trump (albeit, one might say, some lateral and literal distance from him, clearly the Evangelical Executive Committee must be designed to curry some kind of favours with the US Evangelical community) they can't help looking like they're giving support to Trump.
I'm sure that HTB would bluster that they're just engaging with current events, listening to a broad spectrum of views blahdiblah, but this and other recent moves are firmly putting the HTB brand - and by extension the Alpha brand - further into the Conservative Evangelical territory.
Which makes it interesting as to the dynamics within the wider Evangelical camps that they inhabit, more particularly the ones in the Anglican church. The uber Conservative Evangelical wing of the church (as opposed to the HTB wing) is small, angry and sidelined. The intersection with New Wine is much bigger - but has been reeling from their own scandals with major figures being toppled by sexual misconduct.
And what of the Alpha brand?
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arse
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
Tom Mullins, who runs a church in Florida that my relatives attend, was asked on the board. Mullins went to the meeting to find out more – including why he’d been asked. He’s not a big a beast as some of the other invitees. He was totally blunt about the invite to advise as not being the same as an endorsement. In the end, he decided not to accept.
Reaction to the invite amongst the congregation was pretty negative. Proving the US evangelical scene is not as clear cut as it can sometimes appear.
We’ve been a few times whilst we were on holiday and it seemed quite sensible. I’d consider attending if we lived there. Congregation members tell me that when there were a few shouts from the pews of “Go Trump” and “America is the best”, the leadership were very quick to shut them down. They were very blunt about not endorsing anyone or getting involved in politics.
Whilst some on the list would probably endorse anything Republican, a few may have accepted in the hope of being a positive influence. Which seems to be working out well. (Not).
An American has been asked to preach in a church in another country. Whilst HTB might have some American expats, their postal votes are likely to have been sent in ages ago so anything he says will have limited influence. I’m not seeing the big conspiracy here. But any church that invites the likes of Joel O is off my Christmas card list. Total wolf in sheep’s clothing.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
Whilst HTB might have some American expats, their postal votes are likely to have been sent in ages ago so anything he says will have limited influence.
Irrespective of the actual influence, it still comes across as a political statement, unavoidably so given the timing.
I can imagine it takes humility and fortitude to turn down an invitation to serve on such a committee.
I also think the biggest sign of it being a trap is that it has been made public by the Trump campaign.
When politicians actually want advice (as opposed to tacit endorsement), they don't advertise the fact or use it as part of their platform. After, as I recall, a notorious photograph of him kneeling to pray with a US President, Billy Graham seems to have learned from this mistake early on and advised subsequent incumbents much more discreetly.
Just by publicising the committee's existence, Trump has ensured debate in evangelical circles and thus further free publicity for his own brand in those circles, remembering that there is no such thing as bad publicity.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
He was totally blunt about the invite to advise as not being the same as an endorsement. In the end, he decided not to accept.
Help me understand the point of the Evangelical Executive Committee if it is not intended, in some way, to give Trump credibility to and from the Evangelical community.
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arse
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
He was totally blunt about the invite to advise as not being the same as an endorsement. In the end, he decided not to accept.
Help me understand the point of the Evangelical Executive Committee if it is not intended, in some way, to give Trump credibility to and from the Evangelical community.
Well yes, that’s totally the point of it. Mullins, to his credit, realised the whole thing was a con and refused his invite.
Whilst Mullins Snr is fairly traditionally evangelical in his views, his church has always been politically neutral. He probably decided that a) being involved with Trump would compromise that and b) given the amount of ill feeling that going to a meeting to explore the possibility of being on the Board caused, there were more minuses than pluses.
Billy Graham and his organisations never endorsed anyone for President. Then Franklyn took over and they endorsed the GOP / Romney. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
He's going to be on the wrong continent on Sunday. Talking to a bunch of people, most of whom can't vote for Trump and a lot of whom wouldn't anyway, instead of being in a mega-church in a swing state convincing the doubters that voting for Trump is the only way of getting a conservative justice on the Supreme Court, or whatever the rationale is for why Jesus wants a certifiable maniac in charge of the world's largest nuclear arsenal.
He couldn't explicitly* stump for Trump at an American church, mega- or not, without endangering that church's tax-exempt status. Maybe that's why he's stumping in England.
*He could almost go there, talking about the need to vote in a way to ensure the unborn will be protected, etc., but he couldn't go so far as to say "vote for Trump."
I thought the way round that was, in the course of a twenty minute sermon, to at one point disavow all intention of telling his hearers how to vote but to insist that they must minutely scrutinise their conscience and then, a few minutes later, tell them that Jesus will require from them, on the great day of judgement, an account of what they did to protect the unborn. White evangelicals don't vote as a bloc for decades without a little encouragement from their leadership.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
Whilst HTB might have some American expats, their postal votes are likely to have been sent in ages ago so anything he says will have limited influence.
Irrespective of the actual influence, it still comes across as a political statement, unavoidably so given the timing.
...
I don’t disagree. But people, even smart ones, aren’t always good at thinking about how something might look from an external perspective.
Someone was probably so pleased about getting a high profile, external US based preacher to lead the Sunday before the election they might not have gone onto the next thought … That it would be better to have someone neutral rather than someone directly connected with one particular campaign.
Over the years, I have come to the conclusion that one of my contributions at work and elsewhere is pointing out stuff that should be blooming obvious to someone with half a brain but isn’t …
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
Something from The Huffington Post about the Executive Council of Evangelical Leaders.
I wonder if Robert Morris was booked to come HTB before or after the group was announced in June. HTB's web site is uninformative about what he will be doing, though the Gateway Church is probably (well-)known within the HTB constituency.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
I wonder if Robert Morris was booked to come HTB before or after the group was announced in June.
If before, then they should have pulled the gig. That's what professionals do when there's a potential conflict of interest, to protect their brand, and HTB projects professionalism and branding from every pore.
ETA and Tubbs, there's absolutely no way he's neutral at this stage.
[ 04. November 2016, 11:42: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
You could always take my slot back home this Sunday: I'm preaching out of town and doing an afternoon session on Revelation, or the Apocalypse as it's known here,
I think the timing is coincidental, but the temptation to talk about, and suitably interpret, beasts with ten horns and so on may prove irresistible...
Tell me about it. I'm on tap this Sunday, and the lectionary hands me 2 Thess 2, including these verses:
quote:
Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for [that day will not come] until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
I think I can just barely restrain myself from substituting "Donald" for "man of lawlessness".... but it won't be easy...
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
<snip> But any church that invites the likes of Joel O is off my Christmas card list. Total wolf in sheep’s clothing.
Tubbs
Or even a wolf in wolf's clothing. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
This is all sounding like ideal material for a Jack Chick-style tract, got up regardless, and complete with The Faceless God requiring an explanation.....
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Well Pastor Morris will certainly be addressing a lot of people: he's scheduled to 'preach' at all HTB services plus one at their Onslow Square outpost.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
I wonder if Robert Morris was booked to come HTB before or after the group was announced in June.
If before, then they should have pulled the gig. That's what professionals do when there's a potential conflict of interest, to protect their brand, and HTB projects professionalism and branding from every pore.
ETA and Tubbs, there's absolutely no way he's neutral at this stage.
I totally agree. But, given my experience of seeing brand management and marketing in action, it’s amazing the stuff that people don’t think of. Stuff that seems glaringly obvious as an outsider looking in.
To us, having a pro-Trump speaker at your church a few days before the election given everything that’s gone on is an act of clossial stupity … To them, it’s probably great they’ve got someone so directly connected with a high profile current event. Show’s how relevant and important they are. Most churches can’t get speakers of that calibre. Go them!
[My teeny tiny church is currently well chuffed with itself as we the current head of the BU is coming to preach later this year. Unlike any of the bigger Baptist churches in the area. But we’ve known him for years and he’s coming because he’s a mate. But, I don't begrudge the congregation the opportunity to be smug. It's not often we get bragging rights]
Tubbs
[ 04. November 2016, 15:06: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Not that long ago the former mayor of an African capital with population of over a million people attended my church. He expected no special treatment and sat along with everybody else, including people who had been on a mission team with a para-church organisation to his city.
The latter were and still are blissfully unaware of who he was, and of the fact that his intelligence services had been watching over their safety throughout their stay, when he was still in office.
HTB's enslavement to the external trappings of power is so thoroughly worldly it's untrue.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
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Posted
I am likely to be attending one of the services as I am meeting a friend who attends HTB.
I am happy to report back on how he is introduced and what he has to say, if anyone is interested.
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
Posts: 2210 | From: london | Registered: Aug 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
I am likely to be attending one of the services as I am meeting a friend who attends HTB.
I am happy to report back on how he is introduced and what he has to say, if anyone is interested.
Will be interesting. Taking one for the team!
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
Rather you than me. My ex goes there, but not sure which service she goes to. A meeting I'd rather not have.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
HTB publish all (or nearly all?) sermons as downloads on their website, so I guess that by, say, Wednesday, anyone with access to a computer will be able to make their own judgements on the merit or otherwise of what Morris has to say.
In fairness to HTB, I don't think so much that they are political in the sense of having, say, a right wing agenda (at least since Sandy Millar handed over to NG,) but rather they give opportunity for various shades of opinion to be expressed, and encourage their congos to make up their own minds. I very much doubt that Morris will find particular support amongst the bright young things who allegedly make up the majority of HTB attendees.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
HTB publish all (or nearly all?) sermons as downloads on their website, so I guess that by, say, Wednesday, anyone with access to a computer will be able to make their own judgements on the merit or otherwise of what Morris has to say.
In fairness to HTB, I don't think so much that they are political in the sense of having, say, a right wing agenda (at least since Sandy Millar handed over to NG,) but rather they give opportunity for various shades of opinion to be expressed, and encourage their congos to make up their own minds. I very much doubt that Morris will find particular support amongst the bright young things who allegedly make up the majority of HTB attendees.
I disagree. NG has made his political allegiances very clear. He has been a vocal supporter of his fellow Etonian, David Cameron. In American politics he is on the far-right. He has made a point of aligning himself with several outspoken Trump supporters. The latest Trump-ette is par for the course, not a derivation from it.
K.
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
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Posted
Whatever Robert Morris may think about politics, it would not be possible to guess from what he said at HTB today, at least at the service I attended. His remarks did not address the subject at all, not even obliquely, nor did he give any kind of social commentary.
He was introduced as the pastor of a large church in Dallas, and author of a few books. He was in London for the weekend on his way back from Israel to America, and had his family with him.
He spoke primarily about two things, how to listen to the Holy Spirit, and how to be generous.
I got the impression that he was not a prosperity gospel type.
I am not an evangelical but I found him ok. I am not an infallible judge of character but he seemed a decent genuine sort of person to me.
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
Posts: 2210 | From: london | Registered: Aug 2006
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