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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Trump's Evangelical Endorsers
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
He probably is a decent genuine sort of person. I've never met a fully fledged supporter of Donald Trump - in the UK at least they appear to be fairly closely types - but I would be surprised if they all came across as being the love child of Ming The Merciless and Servalan.
A great deal of evil, alas, happens because decent and genuine people come to the conclusion that they have to suppress their conscience because the cause demands it. That seems to me to be the best description of evangelical supporters of Trump.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
He probably is a decent genuine sort of person. I've never met a fully fledged supporter of Donald Trump - in the UK at least they appear to be fairly closely types - but I would be surprised if they all came across as being the love child of Ming The Merciless and Servalan.
A great deal of evil, alas, happens because decent and genuine people come to the conclusion that they have to suppress their conscience because the cause demands it. That seems to me to be the best description of evangelical supporters of Trump.
Some very good points here. That Trump and his campaign are explicitly racist, sexist, ignorant and bigoted is clear. Morris has made the choice to join that campaign—amongst the ugliest in recent US history. He can talk about teddy bears at HTB for all I care, this is a man directly and willingly aligned with a sick and morally bankrupt political movement. That Nicky Gumbel should invite should a beast into his church as a speaker is, among many other examples, an indictment of his lack of moral fortitude. I do hope that Nicky is eventually exposed for this, and other, sinister and manipulative acts. He has officially joined the ranks of the right-wing loons that populate so much of the American evangelical scene.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
He probably is a decent genuine sort of person. I've never met a fully fledged supporter of Donald Trump - in the UK at least they appear to be fairly closely types - but I would be surprised if they all came across as being the love child of Ming The Merciless and Servalan.
A great deal of evil, alas, happens because decent and genuine people come to the conclusion that they have to suppress their conscience because the cause demands it. That seems to me to be the best description of evangelical supporters of Trump.
Some very good points here. That Trump and his campaign are explicitly racist, sexist, ignorant and bigoted is clear. Morris has made the choice to join that campaign—amongst the ugliest in recent US history. He can talk about teddy bears at HTB for all I care, this is a man directly and willingly aligned with a sick and morally bankrupt political movement. That Nicky Gumbel should invite should a beast into his church as a speaker is, among many other examples, an indictment of his lack of moral fortitude. I do hope that Nicky is eventually exposed for this, and other, sinister and manipulative acts. He has officially joined the ranks of the right-wing loons that populate so much of the American evangelical scene.
K.
I'm inclined to cut Morris a bit more slack. I suspect that he will have been invited onto the advisory board with the explicit proviso that he is not being asked to endorse Trump. He hasn't been asked to join the campaign in the sense of endorsing Trump, and he may be very unhappy about the racism, sexism, ignorance and bigotry which has characterised it.
He and many of those he cares for as pastor will probably have been life-long Republicans, and though they probably don't care for their party's candidate, are facing the reality that Trump is the person through whom the concerns and interests of their party may be realised at presidential level.
Morris and others on the 'bigly' named Evangelical Executive Advisory Board* will be/ have been hoping that they can bring a Christian influence to the campaign. Some of them have probably considered the balance between their chances of affecting the campaign and the use Trump will make of having their names on the board - even though his campaign expressly says the members of the board were not asked to endorse Trump.
Personally, I think Christians who feel that the policies and stance of the Republican party resonate with what they consider to be core issues in society from a Christian POV, find themselves in a very hard place with Trump as the candidate. How can they promote those Republican policies without also supporting Trump, and how can they criticise Trump without also detracting from the likelihood that those policies will gain presidential support? I think theirs is a specific example of a general problem within GOP since Trump won the primaries.
* Has the promised 'Faith and Cultural Advisory Committee' which this 'executive' advisory board was supposed to lead actually been launched? I can't find any trace of it on Google.
[ 07. November 2016, 10:28: Message edited by: BroJames ]
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
This priest is at least straight forward about it. I almost prefer this to the subtle message I expect many Catholics got last Sunday.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
This is the link I meant to post. I think the internet is rigged.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
The parish priest responsible for that garbage is clearly Jack Chick re-incarnated, and I claim my £5.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
I'm inclined to cut Morris a bit more slack. I suspect that he will have been invited onto the advisory board with the explicit proviso that he is not being asked to endorse Trump.
Robert Morris is fairly connected with other groups - like Charisma Magazine/Strang Publications - who have been pushing Trump quite heavily, so I don't necessarily agree with your evaluation.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
I'm inclined to cut Morris a bit more slack. I suspect that he will have been invited onto the advisory board with the explicit proviso that he is not being asked to endorse Trump.
But this is naive in the extreme. I can't see any point of the board's existence being publicised except to use it as a tacit endorsement of Trump by leading evangelicals.
Disgraced Kansas City Prophet Paul Cain at least the good sense to observe that when it came to advising heads of government, the quieter you are about it, the further you get.
For there to be any hope of meaningful input the advice would have to be private.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I suppose they won't be inviting Bill Maher to provide some kind of balance?
Might be interesting material to review in their home groups. OR --- they could invite a Mormon spokesperson, I suppose.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Not HTB, but this seemed the best thread to post the news that Bill Johnson, leader of Bethel church, Redding, California, has revealed he voted for Trump, outlining his reasons; quote:
he voted for Trump "with a good conscience", and "I believe the outcome is from the Lord"
In summary, for him DH issues trump social justice ones.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Oh, and Israel.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Trump won four out of five evangelical Christian votes. Whatever his appeal, it clearly over-rides the pussy grabbing and the foul mouth.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
It was four out of five white evangelical voters, Brenda.
It's different across the pond. All the members of my local evo church, and other Christian friends from an evo background, who have posted on Facebook (and that's a lot of them) are completely horrified by the result.
I'm not sure what thought-world the majority of US white evangelical Christians inhabit but it sure aint mine, of that of my friends.
[ 11. November 2016, 16:32: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I regret saying that most Vietnamese Americans of my acquaintance voted for Trump. I asked one why and was told that someone (an internet source) told them Trump would protect Vietnam from China. I doubt he ever said word one on Vietnam, but they are terribly vulnerable to liars who spread wild stories, not having much familiarity with the reality of how US politics works.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
It's different across the pond. All the members of my local evo church, and other Christian friends from an evo background, who have posted on Facebook (and that's a lot of them) are completely horrified by the result.
I'm not sure your sample is representative. I suspect a lot of UK evos voted Leave for reasons that overlap with Trump voters. I also suspect not a few French evos will vote Marine Le Pen, again for similar reasons plus anti-Muslim sentiment.
On the one hand Johnson's revelation doesn't come as a surprise - mystical pro-Israel Charismatic sounds perfect for Trump propaganda - but it certainly gives the lie to that superficial laid-back Californian view I had of him. I wonder if John Wimber would have voted Trump?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
John Wimber would not have voted Trump. Jim Wallis did not vote Trump. Tony Campolo did not vote Trump.
But of course the last two are generally classified as "liberals" or even "socialists" in the conservative evangelical world.
My personal sample may not be at all representative! It's likely that I have a lot of "dodgy, liberal" friends. Probably some self selection going on.
Plus I wasn't surprised by Bill Johnson.
[ 11. November 2016, 17:38: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Not HTB, but this seemed the best thread to post the news that Bill Johnson, leader of Bethel church, Redding, California, has revealed he voted for Trump, outlining his reasons; quote:
he voted for Trump "with a good conscience", and "I believe the outcome is from the Lord"
In summary, for him DH issues trump social justice ones.
Actually, following (almost) all the threads and posts about the Trump selection, I have had the question in my mind: What do SoF members think God has to do with any of it? Is this God's will?
Please be assured that the question is not posed in a cynical manner as I am as always interested in the discussion and the many interesting points of view.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
What do SoF members think God has to do with any of it? Is this God's will?
I can't speak for anyone else, but my take is this:
The NT seems to accept the existence of authorities as God-given and generally encourages respect for them as better than anarchy. Christians are encouraged to live as responsible citizens. At the same time, there is precedent in both old and new testaments for non-violent protest against the authorities if obedience to them is seen as being in direct contradiction to obedience to God.
It is a big leap from there to seeing any particular candidate being elected as a direct outworking of God's specific will.
Bill Johnson's comments in this respect are ambiguous, I'd say.
He might be saying Trump was God's appointed candidate even before being elected; for a Christian actually saying that before the election, see here; I think most people on the Ship would put this approach very definitely in the fruitcake zone, but it probably goes some way to explaining that 80% of white evangelical voters.
On the other hand, he might simply be saying "well, since the guy has been elected, I now think it is God's will that he should be in power". Which for his constituency is not that different, ultimately, from the kind of thing Obama or Clinton have been saying to the general public about a peaceful handover.
[ 12. November 2016, 09:41: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Bill Johnson's comments in this respect are ambiguous, I'd say.
He might be saying Trump was God's appointed candidate even before being elected; for a Christian actually saying that before the election, see here;
I think they are less than ambiguous when it comes to the detail of his comment:
""I also found that accusation is a trick of the devil to create fear, thus manipulating peoples decision making process. I found that the devil himself is called the accuser, and that often times good people fall into that trap thinking they are doing the rest of us a good service by creating an evil image of someone when their perception is in itself wrong. Trump was never called a racist until he ran against Clinton.""
By implying that the devil is actively working against Trump, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that his statement is meant to give the impression that a vote for Trump is a vote for the will of God.
I must say that it doesn't surprise me; charismatics especially have a tendency to romanticise the strongman, possibly due to the dynamics of the movement. I remember much talk in church circles in the 80s and early 90s about how such-and-such right wing dictator was really a Christian.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
Except that Johnson did say he voted for Trump. That's more than passive acquiescence. This furthermore suggests that, in his mind, dead horse issues trumps (sic) not only justice issues but character issues. By their fruits will you know them, in this case the rotten fruits of dubious business practice, self confessed sexual assault, lies, vile abuse of women, minorities and disabled people, insulting behaviour to those who have sacrificed all for their country, and just about any general behaviour which would be liable to bring discredit to the Gospel.
I have previously thought well of Johnson, in spite of the misgivings of others, but that is something of which I now repent.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Oh, I agree his stance as a whole is pretty unambiguous. But the particular comment SusanDoris highlighted is, and I think many Christians might say something like "the outcome is from the Lord" even if they did not approve of Trump.
I'm also seeing this whole thing increasingly as a conflict between empowerment and enfeeblement. It seems to me that the Republicans are seeking to preserve the status quo in terms of who has power, and keep the weak weak. One similarity between Johnson and HTB is that while there might be talk of empowerment, at the end of the day their supporters are beholden to their respective brands and thus enfeebled.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
I think the fact that the con-evos are prepared to claim that everything from rock music to d&d is from the devil points firmly to the idea that things they approve of coming from God and things they don't coming from elsewhere.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Eutychus
?Thank you for your reply. Will read again later, as I'm out this afternoon.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I think the fact that the con-evos are prepared to claim that everything from rock music to d&d is from the devil points firmly to the idea that things they approve of coming from God and things they don't coming from elsewhere.
For varying values of "God" and "elsewhere" I'd say that attitude is true of many, many, many groups.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
I'd still be surprised if more than a tiny number of HTB attendees are pro-Trump. My experience of HTB is that, at least at a congregational level, they are pretty "right on". Sure, they can be mocked because of the socio-economic monoculture (which is probably not really an accurate stereotype anyway), but the predominant political culture is a narrow band left and right of centre. Think Tony Blair here. I think there is a wide cross section of people invited to speak, from Orthodoxen and Catholics to people of the likes of Johnson. There, indeed, is a "brand", but it is far from being tied to the American right. For one thing, the vibe is much more English than that.
As an aside, I attended an evening service there which was being led by Johnson's brother and his wife. The pre-service atmosphere had been quite expectant, but by 20 minutes in, they had lost most of the Congo, as evidenced by the recourse to social media of pretty well all those sitting around me.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
One of the main speakers and chief prophet at my Leicester CoE char-evo megachurch, has taken down his let he who has eyes to hear support, for the candidate who cared more for the unborn than the born, from FaceBook, after I challenged it in my inimitable way.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
There's a local pastors' fraternal coming up in a couple of weeks that includes our local Bethel-inspired church. Should be interesting...
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
Martin Saunders of Christian Today has made a fairly detailed and devastating response to Bill Johnson's apologia for voting for Trump.
Thanks. Thoughtful and thought-provoking. 16% of white evangelicals voted for Hillary Clinton. Showing that, although a minority, there are still some independent-minded thinkers within that group.
Some may be in the same frame of mind as our good Shipmate cliffdweller. It is a moot point whether they should "stay in tent and piss out, rather than leave the tent and piss in". That community needs genuine prophetic voices. Using the standard OT example. Prophets challenge the wisdom and authority of kings and rulers.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
Martin Saunders of Christian Today has made a fairly detailed and devastating response to Bill Johnson's apologia for voting for Trump.
Encouraging, at least in places. When will evangelicals disown deluded notjobs like Bill Johnson? His defence of Trump reads like one straight out of a Waco siege.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
When will evangelicals disown deluded notjobs like Bill Johnson? His defence of Trump reads like one straight out of a Waco siege.
That's the problem with evangelicalism. It isn't formed as an organisation like Anglicanism or Methodism is. You can't really kick someone out. We can state that we disagree with someone and try to "disown" them, but no one has the proprietary rights to the term 'evangelical'. And oftentimes, it can be quite tiresome trying to keep up with the list of so-called influential evangelicals (most of whom us Brits have never heard of) that we're supposed be denouncing.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Can Bethel lose its tax-exempt status for supporting a candidate?
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
Martin Saunders of Christian Today has made a fairly detailed and devastating response to Bill Johnson's apologia for voting for Trump.
Encouraging, at least in places. When will evangelicals disown deluded notjobs like Bill Johnson? His defence of Trump reads like one straight out of a Waco siege.
K.
Personally, I am very happy to disown his defence of Trump, as is Martin Saunders. So evangelicals are disowning him, in the same way as Muslims are disowning IS. It's just that the nut jobs of whatever stripe are the ones that make news.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
Martin Saunders of Christian Today has made a fairly detailed and devastating response to Bill Johnson's apologia for voting for Trump.
Encouraging, at least in places. When will evangelicals disown deluded notjobs like Bill Johnson? His defence of Trump reads like one straight out of a Waco siege.
K.
Personally, I am very happy to disown his defence of Trump, as is Martin Saunders. So evangelicals are disowning him, in the same way as Muslims are disowning IS. It's just that the nut jobs of whatever stripe are the ones that make news.
Thanks for that. It seems essential to me, that the zanier and politically dangerous end of the evangelical spectrum be marginalised—the the reasons you've already mentioned. The statistics are not encouraging regarding evangelical support for Trump. Here's hoping!
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
Personally, I am very happy to disown his defence of Trump, as is Martin Saunders. So evangelicals are disowning him
Might I invite you to join the debate on precisely what evangelicals (or those with evangelical leanings) that feel the same way might own rather than disown, here?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Can Bethel lose its tax-exempt status for supporting a candidate?
K.
Theoretically, yes. The IRS does have regulations. In actuality? What I fear is that the Orange One will thwart any such move. But, of course, only in favor of his supporters.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I saw a Trump video on Facebook only today, from his campaign, in which he was pledging to do exactly the opposite (i.e. allow churches to support politicians without losing tax-exempt status).
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
It is directly contravening the Constitution (separation of church and state), but the Orange isn't very well versed in that document so no surprise. And I am willing to bet that with enforcement, where the rubber hits the road, there will be a distinct thumb on the scales.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Green Mario
Shipmate
# 18090
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Posted
Komensky - you seem to have a vendetta against Nicky Gumbell, do you know him personally and does the animosity flow out of that? or is it just that he is a high profile representative of a form of Christianity that you don't appreciate?
Posts: 121 | Registered: Apr 2014
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Green Mario:
Komensky - you seem to have a vendetta against Nicky Gumbell, do you know him personally and does the animosity flow out of that? or is it just that he is a high profile representative of a form of Christianity that you don't appreciate?
I don't have a vendetta against him, no. I will, however, call out snakes in the grass. Should a C of E vicar be taking part in promoting political candidates at home or abroad? No. I will certainly write to HMRC to see that HTB is investigated for breaking the rules that determine tax-exempt status. This is not his first time.
To be honest, I think Nicky's support of Trump is not aimed so much as his own congregation, but rather at his American market. He has closely allied himself to snake-oil salesman Bill Johnson, who has written a lengthy piece (cited above) in defence of Trump and he voted for him. Nicky has long been courting the far right of the American con-evo scene; which is dangerous stuff.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I saw a Trump video on Facebook only today, from his campaign, in which he was pledging to do exactly the opposite (i.e. allow churches to support politicians without losing tax-exempt status).
Oh dear. I wouldn't think that the office of the POTUS has the power to do that on its own though, right?
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I'm not a US legal expert, but I'd expect the Supreme Court to have something to say about it. Oh, wait...
Meanwhile, Johnson has issued a non-apology (warning, it's Charisma magazine, pop-ups inviting more of the Holy Spirit into your life...) for his statement.
It seems mostly to say "sorry that associates of mine caught flak for this" and admit some Christians might support Clinton, but I can't see him actually backing off the endorsement. The article seems to expect us to feel his pain...
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Ugh. I had hoped you guys were safe from this over in Britain. What happened to that plan for Scotland to bar the Orange One from coming in? I'd move on that.
In the meantime an American Christian bails out. I've long held that the great folly of the faith in our generation is getting into bed with politicians. For pete's sake don't you guys do the same thing. We fought hard for our title of Stupidest Nation on Earth, you know. You can't top us; don't even try.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
I adjusted the title to reflect the now broader scope of the thread.
B62, Purg Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I saw a Trump video on Facebook only today, from his campaign, in which he was pledging to do exactly the opposite (i.e. allow churches to support politicians without losing tax-exempt status).
Oh dear. I wouldn't think that the office of the POTUS has the power to do that on its own though, right?
K.
The regulations have always been enforced capriciously and politically. Under W, many con-evo churches did the sorts of things here-- explicitly handed out voter guides, etc. with no repercusions. Meanwhile, a local church that endorsed no candidate or position, but simply preached a sermon outlining a biblical argument vs. war in general, had to fight a 5- year battle to retain it's tax exemption.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I adjusted the title to reflect the now broader scope of the thread.
B62, Purg Host
Thanks. I think that will help the thread.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I saw a Trump video on Facebook only today, from his campaign, in which he was pledging to do exactly the opposite (i.e. allow churches to support politicians without losing tax-exempt status).
Oh dear. I wouldn't think that the office of the POTUS has the power to do that on its own though, right?
K.
The regulations have always been enforced capriciously and politically. Under W, many con-evo churches did the sorts of things here-- explicitly handed out voter guides, etc. with no repercusions. Meanwhile, a local church that endorsed no candidate or position, but simply preached a sermon outlining a biblical argument vs. war in general, had to fight a 5- year battle to retain it's tax exemption.
Billy Graham, for example, took out full-page newspaper ads urging people to vote for Romney. There seems not to have been any consequences for that.
Does the 700 Club have tax-exempt status?
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Billy Graham, for example, took out full-page newspaper ads urging people to vote for Romney.
That I find surprising. Can you back this up?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I'm surprised it was the father and not the son. I wonder if the father actually approved it?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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