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A team of Valley high schoolers and parents rally for a separate prom that bans gays.

NBC 2's Paige Preusse reports how Sullivan High School says there's nothing legally they can do to allow it... several students and parents are taking matters into their own hands.

Several parents, students, and others who believe gays should be banned from the Sullivan High School prom met Sunday at the Sullivan First Christian Church.

"We don't agree with it and it's offensive to us," said Diana Medley.

Their idea is to create their own separate...traditional prom. Students say there are several others from their high school who agree, but are afraid to take a stand.

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Prior to the 1954 decision of the Supreme Court of the United States in Brown v. Board of Education, most schools in the southern United States were racially segregated. The process of integration of schools was slow, and many schools did not become integrated until the late 1960s and early 1970s. In order to avoid having to hold an integrated prom, many high schools stopped sponsoring any prom*, and private segregated proms were organized as a replacement.

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
We need a Dead Horses/Hell hybrid so that I can properly express myself on this.

Separate but equal isn't.

There is no Christian love in "You buggers go over there, away from us God fearing people."

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Originally posted by Gee D:

The whole point of Brown's case is that what is separate is not equal. But the argument cannot extend to a so-called private party - there's just not the legal power to do so. However, if those organising the private party made any use at all of school information or property, then the courts could step in.

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Originally posted by Palimpsest:
It's depressing that one of the instigators of this crap is a special ed teacher who deals with gay students.

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"Homosexual students come to me with their problems, and I don't agree with them, but I care about them. It's the same thing with my special needs kids, I think God puts everyone in our lives for a reason," said Madley.

"'So the same goes for gays? Do you think they have a purpose in life?' No I honestly don't. Sorry, but I don't. I don't understand it. A gay person isn't going to come up and make some change unless it's to realize that it was a choice and they're choosing God," said Medley. (my bold)

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Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
[QB][QUOTE] Sorry, but I don't. I don't understand it. A gay person isn't going to come up and make some change unless it's to realize that it was a choice and they're choosing God," said Medley.

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Originally posted by Palimpsest:
It's depressing that one of the instigators of this crap is a special ed teacher who deals with gay students.
I take some confort in the fact that they are poisoning the reputation of their church. Just like the segregationists who aren't mentioned much by the current church, these people will be an embarassment in days to come.
I do wonder how many of the students wanted their separate prom, and how much they're just not talking about how nasty their parents are.

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Originally posted by Palimpsest:
I take some confort in the fact that they are poisoning the reputation of their church. Just like the segregationists who aren't mentioned much by the current church, these people will be an embarassment in days to come.

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Originally posted by Niteowl:
But it is a school function, not a private party - whether it's held on school property or not.

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Nope. The whole point of the post-Brown segregated prom is that it is a wholly private event; organized, held, and paid for outside the public school system. This system endures today (or at least as recently as four years ago) in a few portions of the U.S.

This whole nonsense started when some concerned parents queried the principal of Sullivan High School about whether same-sex couples would be permitted in the Grand March ( ) at the prom. Not liking the answer they got (any student could come to prom and participate fully), these concerned parents decided to hold their own prom and only invite the "right" people. If they want to rent a space, hold a dance, and call it a "prom" there's no law to stop them.

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Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
How can a school continue to employ a person who's publically admitted that they consider that some of the students that they work with don't even have a purpose in life? Surely that's a bigger issue than a school dance, and if a headteacher or a board isn't addressing statements like that, then there're far bigger problems inherant in the system than an end of year party.

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Originally posted by Crœsos:
The whole point of the post-Brown segregated prom is that it is a wholly private event; organized, held, and paid for outside the public school system. This system endures today (or at least as recently as four years ago) in a few portions of the U.S..

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Oh my goodness. I must be really naive to have thought that that sort of thing would have become a total non-issue decades ago.

I was imagining that similarly the epic (but interesting, if at times repetitive) Homosexuality and Christianity thread might gradually dribble off into a non issue (it's languishing on page 3 here at the moment). Maybe not then.

Why?

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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)

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Originally posted by luvanddaisies:

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Originally posted by Crœsos:
The whole point of the post-Brown segregated prom is that it is a wholly private event; organized, held, and paid for outside the public school system. This system endures today (or at least as recently as four years ago) in a few portions of the U.S..

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Oh my goodness. I must be really naive to have thought that that sort of thing would have become a total non-issue decades ago.

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
My friend couldn't attend her prom because her school wouldn't let her wear trousers to it

And this is a regular comprehensive in Cambridgeshire!

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Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
My friend couldn't attend her prom because her school wouldn't let her wear trousers to it

And this is a regular comprehensive in Cambridgeshire!

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Did students have to advise what they were wearing before the prom? I would have thought they would have just turned up.

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Originally posted by Albertus:
socks with sandals will probably do you no harm.

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Originally posted by Albertus:
A school prom? In Cambridgeshire?
Prom in British usage:
(i) A seafront walkway, usually giving on to a beach. Dress code: whatever you like but traditionally summer dresses, shorts (for both sexes), gumby hats (possibly) etc. In Cambs, not even Tydd St Giles is close enough to the sea for one of these.
(ii) A promenade concert, notably those held at the Albert Hall in the summer. Dress code: again, whatever you like, but if you want to pass for a hard-core prommer, socks with sandals will probably do you no harm.

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Proms are just school balls...? And they're not especially new here, my secondary school had its first in 2003 (this was in Coventry) and I've heard of UK schools having them before this. I don't see the need for outrage over school proms existing here, as if every American import is bad.

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For some of us, a 'tradition' that begins in 2003 makes it very, very new.

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Originally posted by Anglican't:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Proms are just school balls...? And they're not especially new here, my secondary school had its first in 2003 (this was in Coventry) and I've heard of UK schools having them before this. I don't see the need for outrage over school proms existing here, as if every American import is bad.

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For some of us, a 'tradition' that begins in 2003 makes it very, very new.

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:

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Originally posted by Albertus:
socks with sandals will probably do you no harm.

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No. This is Wrong. Socks with sandals is wrong. no matter the time, no matter the place. Socks with sandals damages your soul to such an extent, you may as well lay waste to continents. Socks with sandals is a sin against humanity. Socks with sandals is the sin for which there is no forgiveness.
Now back to where we were, oh yes, "Get off my lawn!"

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:

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Originally posted by Albertus:
socks with sandals will probably do you no harm.

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No. This is Wrong. Socks with sandals is wrong. no matter the time, no matter the place. Socks with sandals damages your soul to such an extent, you may as well lay waste to continents. Socks with sandals is a sin against humanity. Socks with sandals is the sin for which there is no forgiveness.
Now back to where we were, oh yes, "Get off my lawn!"

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Originally posted by Crœsos:

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Originally posted by Anglican't:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Proms are just school balls...? And they're not especially new here, my secondary school had its first in 2003 (this was in Coventry) and I've heard of UK schools having them before this. I don't see the need for outrage over school proms existing here, as if every American import is bad.

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For some of us, a 'tradition' that begins in 2003 makes it very, very new.

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This is getting to be quite a tangent, but does everything you do have to be a tradition?

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Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:

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Originally posted by Albertus:
socks with sandals will probably do you no harm.

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No. This is Wrong. Socks with sandals is wrong. no matter the time, no matter the place. Socks with sandals damages your soul to such an extent, you may as well lay waste to continents. Socks with sandals is a sin against humanity. Socks with sandals is the sin for which there is no forgiveness.
Now back to where we were, oh yes, "Get off my lawn!"

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Indeed--this is why tradition cannot be trusted: the Romans wore socks with sandals. 2000 years of fashion crime.

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Originally posted by leo:
This bit may appeal in Ecclesiantics, where all things Roman are either loved or loathed.

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Or indeed provide evidence of the inherent rightness of the Anglo-catholic position: doing Roman things in an British, indeed English, way.

Won't satisfy the Anglo-papalists, of course, who would see frostbite of the toes as a sign of faithfulness

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Proms are just school balls...? And they're not especially new here, my secondary school had its first in 2003 (this was in Coventry) and I've heard of UK schools having them before this. I don't see the need for outrage over school proms existing here, as if every American import is bad.

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Originally posted by deano:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Proms are just school balls...? And they're not especially new here, my secondary school had its first in 2003 (this was in Coventry) and I've heard of UK schools having them before this. I don't see the need for outrage over school proms existing here, as if every American import is bad.

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Ah! A ball! Why on earth didn't you say so. May Balls are a great tradition going back centuries. We have a perfectly good name we all understand here in the UK so let's not use the word prom anymore eh?

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Originally posted by Niteowl:

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Originally posted by deano:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Proms are just school balls...? And they're not especially new here, my secondary school had its first in 2003 (this was in Coventry) and I've heard of UK schools having them before this. I don't see the need for outrage over school proms existing here, as if every American import is bad.

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Ah! A ball! Why on earth didn't you say so. May Balls are a great tradition going back centuries. We have a perfectly good name we all understand here in the UK so let's not use the word prom anymore eh?

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The word Prom is common here and is used for the news stories referred to here. It is the word I will use as I understand U.S. proms, a tradition going back pretty far. Some U.S. proms are formal, as was my high school prom, some are not. It depends on the school. You have a new word in your vocabulary.

In this instance, some are trying to take a school event and turn it into a vehicle of discrimination. There are already enough social stresses that cause harm to kids this age, why add yet another layer of stigma saying "you're second class" to the mix.

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Originally posted by Bran Stark:
Although I take the traditional position on the sinfulness of homosexual acts, I still think this school is being ridiculous and unfair. A school dance is just that, a dance. It is neither a sacramental nor an erotic activity. There is nothing immoral about two men dancing together, no more than it's immoral for them to shake hands.

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Originally posted by deano:
I'm sorry. I was refering to British people using the word "prom" instead of the more common British word "ball" to describe "a dance".

If we British have a perfectly good word, why confuse people by using an American word? Doesn't make any sense to me. A prom is a concert, or a pavement besides the sea in Britain.

Of course Americans should keep using the word "prom". It wouldn't make any sense to use a different word when it is completely part of your language.

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Originally posted by Crœsos:

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Originally posted by Bran Stark:
Although I take the traditional position on the sinfulness of homosexual acts, I still think this school is being ridiculous and unfair. A school dance is just that, a dance. It is neither a sacramental nor an erotic activity. There is nothing immoral about two men dancing together, no more than it's immoral for them to shake hands.

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If you'll read the linked article carefully, or even just the top half of the thread, you'll discover that it's not the school that's the problem. It's a group of "concerned parents" who don't like the fact that the school apparently won't be discriminating against same-sex couples at a school event and who are trying to organize a competing straights (and closeted gays) only event.

This was, of course, the tactic applied in the Deep South after public schools were integrated. Proms were turned into private events rather than being connected with the public schools, allowing them to maintain a tradition of racial discrimination long after Brown v. Board.

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Today, public debate over interracial unions has generally died since this Court’s Loving v. Virginia decision in 1967 such that we are now long past the time when anyone would seriously claim that race-based marriage equality threatens the moral fabric of our civilization, is contrary to nature, or is harmful to children. Yet these arguments, however discredited, have not disappeared altogether. Instead, they have been recycled to oppose same-sex marriage. See generally Courtney Megan Cahill, Same-Sex Marriage, Slippery Slope Rhetoric, and the Politics of Disgust: A Critical Perspective on Contemporary Family Discourse and the Incest Taboo, 99 Nw. U. L. Rev. 1543 (2005).

This brief demonstrates that there is nothing new about the arguments marshaled to oppose same-sex marriage; the very same arguments — eventually categorically rejected in Loving v. Virginia — were assembled in opposition to interracial marriage. As a society, we have rightfully come to embrace full human dignity for interracial couples and individuals. We should do no less for same-sex couples.

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Originally posted by no prophet:
Because it involved the students from the school and was discussed in the school, it became a matter for the school to become involved. The understanding was that the school had an ethical and moral responsibility, and might even have legal liability if it knew about it and did not seek to do anything. I think this is probably correct.

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Originally posted by no prophet:
The examples you note are trivial compared to a bush party situation where 50 or 150 students might attend. Obviously small parties wouldn't attract attention.

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Originally posted by no prophet:
Numbers are part of it, but only part. It is also what the activity is, and what level of harm could come from it. In my view, it is different for a teacher to see 2 students smoke a joint off of the school property than for the same students to be seen hotboxing (smoking up in a car and trapping the smoke). I would probably note the first, but report the second myself.

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Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
But they are still students in a school until they graduate or drop out, so the school has some legal liability in relation to them.

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Originally posted by no prophet:
They forfeit nothing, except the 'right' to be really stupid or to do really risky things. The Education Acts give schools the power of a parent over students, within some bounds, and this creates mutual obligations.

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Originally posted by Crœsos:
Could you expand this? Going by your previous post the "bounds" seem pretty expansive, giving a school the right to forbid any gathering it wishes, even outside of normal school operations. Hanging out with a couple friends on weekends, inviting your classmates to your bar mitzvah, getting a group together to attend that concert, all of these actions seem, by your argument, to be subject to veto by the school system. If there are "bounds" on this authority, where are they?

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Originally posted by no prophet:
There is precisely zero possibility that a grad dance here could be segregated even if completely private. Because it is tied to the school however unofficially. The moment they decided to have it with the history that it has as tied to the grad dance would make it a problem.

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Originally posted by no prophet:
If read "moral influence and sense of obligation" into "right", you would be closer the the truth. You are making it sound legalistic and rule bound, when it is about agreement and willingness to respond. The school can forbid nothing, but influence much.

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