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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Religious Freedom Laws
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
Religious Freedom Bills trouble Indiana and Arkansa
There's been a major backlash against the law that Indiana passed that has been claimed allows corporations to discriminate against Gays and Lesbians. The Governor and legislators are denying that it is the intent of the law, but both states are trying to decide how to amend the law.
This is an interesting next step in gay rights. While some states will try to prevent it, they're subject to economic pressure from out of state business. It's gratifying if a little surprising that there's been such a sharp reaction from so many.
It appears that at this point, the Governors are trying to back pedal without admitting it. Any guesses on how this will turn out?
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
It appears that at this point, the Governors are trying to back pedal without admitting it. Any guesses on how this will turn out?
"It's the economy, stupid."
Governments don't care very much about the opinions of their citizens - as long as there are slightly more voters prepared to support you than the other guy at the election, you're set. If 45% of the people in your state hate you, you don't really care, as very few of them are going to do anything about it.
On the other hand, if much less than 45% of the large corporations doing business in your state decide that they don't like something you did, and choose to avoid investment in your state, avoid spending in your state, and so on, you're facing a real fiscal penalty.
And when everyone thinks that your law is intended to allow people to refuse to serve teh gays, it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference what you think your law is for.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
The not knowing what the law is far is pretty dishonest. NPR had an interview with the one out gay City Councilor from Indianapolis who pointed out that the legislator who led passage of the bill had first been on the city councilor and vehemently opposed to the anti-discrimination ordinance.
This was apparent when the Governor was unable to give a yes or no answer on whether the law allowed businesses to discriminate based on sexual orientation.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
In some ways, it's unfortunate that this issue has so immediately been flagged as discriminatory specifically against gay people; important as I think it is not to discriminate against people on the basis of characteristics they can't change, it's also important to protect individuals' rights to freedom of conscience.
However such a law works out in practice, here's what strikes me:
What if religious people sincerely wish to conduct the businesses with which they support themselves in accordance with their religious beliefs?
Say I am Hindu. I sell pots and pans. It's against my beliefs to cook or eat beef.
However, when a customer enters my shop, I don't know how he plans to use the pot he asks to buy from me. May I ask him? Must he tell me? If he's cooking steak, may I refuse to sell him anything in which he could conceivably carry out this (to me) sacrilegious act?
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
The religious "freedom" bills are bullshit. What freedom was being threatened? The freedom to worship as you choose? No. Merely the freedom to discriminate.
As far as the Hindu example, it is the same as the Christian one on the other threads here. If you cannot bear to serve all customers equally, don't get into an industry which provides service.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
I think the Indiana law, as much as I know of it, is preposterous nonsense.
The problem with talking about this is that there may be times a shopkeeper might want to refuse service to someone. Suppose you are running a cafe and a person comes in who then behaves very rudely to you or to other customers. Are you allowed to tell the person to leave? What if that person is easily identifiable as a member of a specific class of people? Will you be accused of being homophobic or antisemitic or racist for your action?
We need to distinguish between refusing service to an individual and refusing it to a class of people.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The religious "freedom" bills are bullshit. What freedom was being threatened? The freedom to worship as you choose? No. Merely the freedom to discriminate.
As far as the Hindu example, it is the same as the Christian one on the other threads here. If you cannot bear to serve all customers equally, don't get into an industry which provides service.
Much as I suspect you're righter than a right thing that's right, lilBuddha, there is a real concern here. In the US, we're so accustomed to that mythical "separation" between church & state it's a normative part of the culture. How many businesses actually close on anybody's Sabbath including their own? Some do, but it's not the norm (except, in some states, Sunday morning).
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Why is that a problem? Genuinely mystified.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
In the US, we're so accustomed to that mythical "separation" between church & state
And rightly so, since it's not--thank God!--mythical at all.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
Not to mention that a private business closing on the Sabbath, or indeed any day at all, has nothing to do with the (quite real and good) separation of church and state.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
I always love the "sincerely" dog whistle.
There were a lot of people who sincerely didn't want to serve Black people in their businesses. Yet we treated them the same way we treated the people who insincerely wanted to discriminate against other races.
The issue has been muddied by the Supreme Court decision on "Hobby Lobby". Now most corporations can have sincere religious beliefs as well. The consequences of that are still unfolding.
If you watch the back pedaling, the Republicans are busy saying.. "no,no,no it's a misunderstanding and there was no intent to discriminate." It's going to be hard to deal with any blurry edge between rights of conscience and rights of those being discriminated against when there's so much dissembling going on.
Still it is fun to watch.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
10 situations where Xn bakers should refuse to bake
quote:
the Lord laid it on my heart that gay people aren’t the only people we should deny cake to. This got me pretty excited, because I really enjoy saying “no cake for you!”
The list includes career-minded brides to be, just married soldiers, bank employees. All with firm biblical justification.
Personally, I think we should also be allowed to throw cake.
[ 02. April 2015, 20:01: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
10 situations where Xn bakers should refuse to bake
That should be required reading in every legislature in the country.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
In the US, we're so accustomed to that mythical "separation" between church & state
And rightly so, since it's not--thank God!--mythical at all.
Christmas is a federal holiday.
Pastors' signatures are fine for City Hall marriage licenses.
My state sells booze. You can't buy it anywhere before noon on Sunday. Why not close Wednesday morning instead.
There are official chaplains in the armed services and state and federal legislatures. Sessions generally open with prayers.
. . . and so on.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Why is that a problem? Genuinely mystified.
It's a problem for anyone who wishes to observe Sabbaths or their equivalent or holidays relevant to their religious traditions when they happen to belong to a "minority" faith -- especially for multi-day observances.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Why is that a problem? Genuinely mystified.
It's a problem for anyone who wishes to observe Sabbaths or their equivalent or holidays relevant to their religious traditions when they happen to belong to a "minority" faith -- especially for multi-day observances.
Yeah, funny how that becomes a problem when Christianity is involved, but not so much for the other religions.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
Hey, I'm not claiming sympathy with the people actually kicking up a fuss here; I'm merely pointing out that there are others potentially affected who might have an actual issue, and we don't do those folks any favors by ignoring that fact. I have staff who, because they're followers of a minority religion, are constantly expected by our company policies, hours, standards, etc. either to transgress one or more religious observances or be absent from their duties for reasons not considered by company policy to be 'legitimate.'
I swear I spend half my work life creating work-arounds (or pinch-hitting) for them.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
In some ways, it's unfortunate that this issue has so immediately been flagged as discriminatory specifically against gay people; important as I think it is not to discriminate against people on the basis of characteristics they can't change, it's also important to protect individuals' rights to freedom of conscience.
However such a law works out in practice, here's what strikes me:
What if religious people sincerely wish to conduct the businesses with which they support themselves in accordance with their religious beliefs?
Say I am Hindu. I sell pots and pans. It's against my beliefs to cook or eat beef.
However, when a customer enters my shop, I don't know how he plans to use the pot he asks to buy from me. May I ask him? Must he tell me? If he's cooking steak, may I refuse to sell him anything in which he could conceivably carry out this (to me) sacrilegious act?
In my opinion, you should be allowed to ask, he should be allowed to either tell you or say that it's none of your business, and the both of you should be free to refuse to continue the transaction if you choose. I really DO believe there are people who are truly trying to follow their religion and get into trouble that way at work, and I think our societies can and ought to tolerate the inconvenience allowing them to do so creates.
And good on you for creating workarounds for your employees who cross company policy when they try to stay faithful to their religion, minority religion or not. That's awesome, and I hope a day comes for you when you won't have to do that anymore, because your company sees the light.
I wish folks would stop assuming the worst of other people's behavior. If they say it's religiously motivated, why not take them at their word? Instead of assuming they are lying assholes.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Everyone should have the right to practice their beliefs as long as that does not include inflicting them on anyone else.
not sure why this is so difficult.
As fas as assholes, I do not assume people are hateful even though their beliefs amount to that.
I've encountered people who were absolutely wonderful people aside from them thinking our skin colour meant something more than a different level of tolerance to sun exposure.
Belief can have consequences beyond an individual's actions. Which is why we have anti-discrimination laws.
These bills are pro-discrimination laws. Simples.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
It's not at all easy to practice one's religion faithfully and never have it impact anyone but oneself. What of the person who truly believes he cannot work Sundays? The teen who will not skip church for soccer practice at the same time? The secretary instructed by her boss to lie to a caller? The employee told to be loyal to coworkers and claim to know nothing about a department-wide breach of policy when investigators ask? The notary public under great pressure to falsify her own records and say she witnessed a signature on a given day because telling the truth would put a family at risk of deportation? ̣̣This last is why I refused to become a notary when I had the opportunity. It would have put me at the center of so many conflicts between telling the truth and compassion/family loyalty/community loyalty...
Religion is not practiced in a bottle, anymore than politics, philosophy, or ethics are. And if you are faithful, you are bound to step on someone's toes. Who will then feel justified in penalizing you.
That's all very well for the Christian, who expects to catch shit from friends, neighbors, etc. occasionally for doing what s/he thinks is right. We were warned. But why should the law be adding to the burden?
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
It's not at all easy to practice one's religion faithfully and never have it impact anyone but oneself. What of the person who truly believes he cannot work Sundays? The teen who will not skip church for soccer practice at the same time? The secretary instructed by her boss to lie to a caller? The employee told to be loyal to coworkers and claim to know nothing about a department-wide breach of policy when investigators ask? The notary public under great pressure to falsify her own records and say she witnessed a signature on a given day because telling the truth would put a family at risk of deportation? ̣̣This last is why I refused to become a notary when I had the opportunity. It would have put me at the center of so many conflicts between telling the truth and compassion/family loyalty/community loyalty...
Only the first two examples have anything to do with religion; an employer would be required to make reasonable efforts to accommodate the employee, but playing soccer is a voluntary activity. The other situations could apply to anyone of any or no faith. Christians are not the only folks who think it is important to tell the truth, nor are they the only folks who are sometimes pressured to do otherwise.
Which leads me to the next problem with "religious freedom" laws: do they apply to non-religious sincerely-held beliefs? Because I don't want to have anything to do with bigots.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Everyone should have the right to practice their beliefs as long as that does not include inflicting them on anyone else.
not sure why this is so difficult.
Here's why:
One of my clients goes swimming once a week. As the client doesn't drive, and requires fairly close supervision, one of my staff takes him.
The staff person's religious modesty rules require him to keep his upper arms and legs covered in mixed company (there are no public pools in our area with one-sex swimming sessions). The pool requires swim trunks in the pool and refuses to bend (and we've already switched pools twice); the staff person must either stay out of the pool, or violate modesty rules.
There's an important religious festival that happens roughly annually which is (ideally) attended over a period of three days by three of my staff.
If you genuinely think it "shouldn't be difficult" for me to fill in for three full-time staff for each of three full work days, let me just assure you: it poses a teensy bit of a challenge, yes.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
... The staff person's religious modesty rules require him to keep his upper arms and legs covered in mixed company (there are no public pools in our area with one-sex swimming sessions). The pool requires swim trunks in the pool and refuses to bend (and we've already switched pools twice); the staff person must either stay out of the pool, or violate modesty rules.
...
or Google "full body swimsuit".
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
or Google "full body swimsuit". [/QB][/QUOTE]
Repeat: the pool requires standard swim trunks. They don't allow these. We've checked.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Porridge,
I see the pool as the same as the establishments which refuse to serve gay people identically to straight.
And, I should think that an official complaint could be made in regards to their refusal using existing laws and not needing bills which are designed as an end run around marriage equality.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
It's not at all easy to practice one's religion faithfully and never have it impact anyone but oneself. What of the person who truly believes he cannot work Sundays? The teen who will not skip church for soccer practice at the same time? The secretary instructed by her boss to lie to a caller? The employee told to be loyal to coworkers and claim to know nothing about a department-wide breach of policy when investigators ask? The notary public under great pressure to falsify her own records and say she witnessed a signature on a given day because telling the truth would put a family at risk of deportation? ̣̣This last is why I refused to become a notary when I had the opportunity. It would have put me at the center of so many conflicts between telling the truth and compassion/family loyalty/community loyalty...
Only the first two examples have anything to do with religion; an employer would be required to make reasonable efforts to accommodate the employee, but playing soccer is a voluntary activity. The other situations could apply to anyone of any or no faith. Christians are not the only folks who think it is important to tell the truth, nor are they the only folks who are sometimes pressured to do otherwise.
Did I say so?
But you are in effect defining as "religious" only activities that do not apply to the majority of the human race. Essentially, you are ripping the guts out of religion; because everybody will admit that truth telling is far more central to religion than, say, observing a particular worship hour or day, or wearing a certain kind of swim trunks. Even if they ALSO hold that those other things must be observed.
So if I follow your lead, I'm left with an empty shell of minor activities that most of the world considers crazy. Those are the only ones you'll consider religious, and therefore those are the only ones the law could apply to. No wonder you--general you here-- think we're lunatics. if that's what religion means to you, well, conversation over. We're never going to make a mental connection.
Look, truth telling, standing up for the poor, keeping honest, and the like are certainly all-human moral imperatives; but they happen to lie at the heart of religious--oh, screw it, Christian practice as well. They may not be deeply religious to you, but they are right at the beating, bleeding heart of it for me. And they are the kinds of things I get crap for. In fact I may be losing a paying gig as we speak because I can't do something that "everybody else is doing" which could conceivably, just possibly, result in someone's death. But, they say, my name won't be on it, and no one will ever know. That should make it all right with me, y'see?
And tomorrow I'm going to have to ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) myself by saying the deeply uncool words, "Well, God would know, and I kinda care about his opinion. No, not because I'm afraid of him,because I love him. Wait a minute, this is getting too damn personal too fast. Pretend you didn't hear that. Delete, delete..."
̣̣̣́́́́̃́́...deep breath...
You know, I'm not really arguing in favor of religious protection laws, at least not wholeheartedly. That's because I frankly don't believe they'll ever do diddleysquat. It's so damned easy to make a person's life a misery by way of their faith, whatever the hell it might be; and there are plenty of bullies out there who take great pleasure in it. And I'm too cynical to think that our so-called "tolerant" society will ever learn to tolerate the handful of people it's still okay--even praiseworthy--to loathe. The religious. The uneducated. The fat. The poor. Because we won't. We like being self-righteous. We like the applause of the rest of the world. And if it puts some poor freak of a baker or photographer or swimming helper out of a job, well, we won't be sorry. Because we're going to make everybody tolerant, by God, and we're going to do it according to our own perfect understanding. Whether they like it or not.
Fuck that. I'm trying oh-so-slowly to learn to love even the intolerant. It's part of learning to love my enemies. And taking their freaking livelihoods away from them because their views don't agree with mine isn't love.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
You know, I'm not really arguing in favor of religious protection laws, at least not wholeheartedly. That's because I frankly don't believe they'll ever do diddleysquat. It's so damned easy to make a person's life a misery by way of their faith, whatever the hell it might be; and there are plenty of bullies out there who take great pleasure in it. And I'm too cynical to think that our so-called "tolerant" society will ever learn to tolerate the handful of people it's still okay--even praiseworthy--to loathe. The religious. The uneducated. The fat. The poor. Because we won't. We like being self-righteous. We like the applause of the rest of the world. And if it puts some poor freak of a baker or photographer or swimming helper out of a job, well, we won't be sorry. Because we're going to make everybody tolerant, by God, and we're going to do it according to our own perfect understanding. Whether they like it or not.
Fuck that. I'm trying oh-so-slowly to learn to love even the intolerant. It's part of learning to love my enemies. And taking their freaking livelihoods away from them because their views don't agree with mine isn't love.
But these people aren't your enemies, they're enemies of other people who have conveniently served as a target for hatred abuse. It's real easy for you to love those who are intolerant of others when others don't include yourself. And you paint them as poor bullied misfits when they seemed to have a majority of legislators on their side.
You don't seem to love those who intolerant of those who passed these Discrimination Protection laws. Why not?
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I'm confused, LC. No one is proposing taking anyone's livelihood or saying people should lie about their beliefs.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Porridge--
You've probably already thought of this, but...
Question about your staff members' holidays: Are they at all amenable to taking different parts of those 3 days off?
I used to work in an office building that was very close to a Catholic church. Many of the staff in my department were RC, or other flavors of Christian. So when Good Friday came around, many people wanted to go to the 3 hr. service in the afternoon. We couldn't all take the day or afternoon off. So sometimes we went on our lunch hours, and IIRC we sometimes took turns taking an hour or so off. We couldn't do the full service, but we were there for at least part of it.
FWIW, YMMV.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Everyone should have the right to practice their beliefs as long as that does not include inflicting them on anyone else.
not sure why this is so difficult.
There's also this: in a country where the majority is (or has been) nominally Christian, "off" days are nicely arranged to coincide with days when regular religious observances typically take place.
Hence my characterization of church-state separation as "mythical." It wasn't an accident of nature that arranged a Monday-through-Friday work week for vast swathes of the populace, with Saturdays and Sundays off.
Belong to a religion which uses a lunar calendar, or whose holy days tend to coincide with various natural events in parts of the world where you're not currently living, and work and religion clash quickly and often. Belong to a religion where communality rather than individuality has typically been the norm for observance and for carrying out boatloads of basic daily living tasks, and see how "simples" it is to neatly compartmentalize work, faith, and life in this society.
Frankly, it would be much, much easier for me -- in theory -- not to hire people from this culture / faith . . . except for the fact that, of all my staff, these three are the ones who never lose their tempers or get frustrated with some very difficult clients. These three are the ones who needed zero training in accepting some very difficult clients for who they are, as they are, as fully human, fully deserving, fully equal people.
I have other staff who complain constantly; who, after weeks of training and years of service, still don't quite "get" that a human being remains a fully-paid-up member of the race regardless of his IQ is or his revolting hygiene or how vilely he behaves under influences we have not yet learned to manage.
These three are the staff who never utter the smallest murmur about the nastiest, smelliest, filthiest, most unpleasant and dangerous aspects of our work; they simply carry on and do what is needed.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Porridge--
You've probably already thought of this, but...
Question about your staff members' holidays: Are they at all amenable to taking different parts of those 3 days off?
I used to work in an office building that was very close to a Catholic church. Many of the staff in my department were RC, or other flavors of Christian. So when Good Friday came around, many people wanted to go to the 3 hr. service in the afternoon. We couldn't all take the day or afternoon off. So sometimes we went on our lunch hours, and IIRC we sometimes took turns taking an hour or so off. We couldn't do the full service, but we were there for at least part of it.
FWIW, YMMV.
That's basically how we've been managing. Not being a believer, I don't pray. If I did, I'd pray for those holidays to arrive on weekends.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
Whole Foods in Ottawa is being investigated for opening on Good Friday, not for being open on the start of Passover.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
but playing soccer is a voluntary activity.
so is going to church.
Not according to God.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I am going to do something extreme and refer to the OP.
The laws referenced in it have bugger-all to do with days off work or tolerating non-christian requirements or desires.
Back to the tangent.
Employer relations to employees are different to service provider to customer. Legally, for certain. Morally as well, I think. This is not to say less important, but different. And more complex.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
But these people aren't your enemies, they're enemies of other people who have conveniently served as a target for hatred abuse. It's real easy for you to love those who are intolerant of others when others don't include yourself.
Bullshit.
What do you know about my life?
Have you been denied service in a restaurant on account of racism? I have, repeatedly.
Have you been denied a loan because you've produced a mixed-race child? I have.
Do your next door neighbors hate you for the color of your skin? Do they repeatedly fuck you over in petty ways while referring to you as the "little brown people" next door? Yep.
Have you been denied career advancement because of a ̣̣̣disability? I have.
Have you been fired for being over-educated and of the wrong gender? I have.
Tell me that I don't know shit about discrimination.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
but playing soccer is a voluntary activity.
so is going to church.
Not according to God.
Keeping Shabbat holy has nothing to do with going to church.
And unless you are getting paid for it, soccer isn't work.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Tell me that I don't know shit about discrimination.
Yes, you're so knowledgeable about discrimination against yourself, that you've decided that discrimination against other people for other reasons isn't important.
It is so nice of you to offer your ever so expert opinion that abuse of other people doesn't matter compared to your goal of loving their enemies.
Some of us who have been attacked on the street, lost jobs and kicked out of restaurants for sexual orientation don't care about your theories that it just doesn't matter. And we'd like to have the same legal protection for anti-discrimination that you get for race and gender. It's feeble but a useful start.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
Palimpsest--you're up against a brick wall on that subject with LC. Just save yourself the headache and disregard it.
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
This is an interesting discussion.
Does not part of this depend on how the country and its laws balance individual and and collective rights? In Canada, it is generally the case that the individual's religious beliefs are fine to be expressed except when they infringe on the rights of others. Thus, justices of the peace who have the job of issuing marriage licenses and performing civil marriages (duties vary depending on the province) must issue marriage licenses to all couples regardless of their beliefs. Those who wouldn't had to lose their jobs.
It would also be entirely illegal for someone to refuse to sell anything to anyone unless they knew it would be used in a crime. Thus, it would be illegal to refuse the sale of a pot because it would be used to cook meat, just as it was for a bridal shop to refuse service to Rohit Singh, a transgender woman. I generally believe that discrimination however motivated is wrong, and that the truly religious would refrain from imposing their ideas on others, no matter how heart felt, and act decently. The law in Canada generally agrees.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
{Holiday tangent.}
Porridge--
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
That's basically how we've been managing. Not being a believer, I don't pray. If I did, I'd pray for those holidays to arrive on weekends.
Are there any holidays that other people take off? Maybe they could trade?
Long ago, I saw a TV movie about Jewish and Christian workers in New York who filled in for each other on holidays. So a Christian would fill in for a Jew on a High Holiday, and a Jew would fill in for a Christian on Christmas.
FWIW.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
With all respect, painfully obvious solutions sometimes occur even to me.
Alas, I have no Jewish staff, and it wouldn't help if I had, with only 7 staff total. They are paid through Medicaid, which means my agency gets reimbursed only for actual services provided; we can't bill for travel time, reporting time (and reporting obligations are considerable), break time, etc. The clients live independently and are spread all over a largish rural catchment area.
Clients' needs (and hence services) are highly individualized. Some female clients cannot be paired with male staff, and vice versa, due to the nature of services provided or to aspects of the clients' behavior.
Each staff person is scheduled for a full 40-hour week, with 3 hours reserved for meetings, trainings, and supervision. These hours render my unit a money-losing proposition due to Medicaid requirements; it's part of my job to keep these losses to a strict minimum.
It would be ideal if we had one male and one female staffer whose responsibilities were just to "float" and fill in for staff out sick, injured, on leave, or observing holidays few people in our area have ever heard of, but this "float" job actually falls to me.
It's messy, inefficient, frustrating, and basically impossible, and we somehow pull it off every month.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Apologies.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
This is an interesting discussion.
Does not part of this depend on how the country and its laws balance individual and and collective rights? In Canada, it is generally the case that the individual's religious beliefs are fine to be expressed except when they infringe on the rights of others. Thus, justices of the peace who have the job of issuing marriage licenses and performing civil marriages (duties vary depending on the province) must issue marriage licenses to all couples regardless of their beliefs. Those who wouldn't had to lose their jobs.
It would also be entirely illegal for someone to refuse to sell anything to anyone unless they knew it would be used in a crime. Thus, it would be illegal to refuse the sale of a pot because it would be used to cook meat, just as it was for a bridal shop to refuse service to Rohit Singh, a transgender woman. I generally believe that discrimination however motivated is wrong, and that the truly religious would refrain from imposing their ideas on others, no matter how heart felt, and act decently. The law in Canada generally agrees.
I would agree that discrimination is wrong in a secular society. I would disagree that the truly religious would refrain from imposing their ideas on others. Some, perhaps including your group of truly religious may do so. But there are a lot varieties of truly religious. Not all of them are compatible with a secular multi faith society.
Some of them believe they have a duty to impose their faiths on others.
This to me is the crux of the phrase "sincere religious belief". Quite often that's used by someone who agrees that their interpretation of faith supports a secular society, but they have share scriptures with another group that traditionally does not support tolerance. By itself, it's an odd usage. If you do harmful things, what does it matter if you are sincere or insincere?
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Tukai
Shipmate
# 12960
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Posted
I gather that ISIS, Al Sabah etc justify their massacres on the grounds of their "sincere religious belief" that those who do not share their beliefs deserve to die - a very a severe form of discrimination!
Conclusion: "sincere religious belief" is not automatically a ground to disobey the law of the land. (Even in Iraq, I bet that murder is illegaal , even if it is frequent.)
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A government that panders to the worst instincts of its people degrades the whole country for years to come.
Posts: 594 | From: Oz | Registered: Sep 2007
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
The thing is, though, that just as having speech freedom for myself requires that I put up with speech I disagree with and even abhor, religious freedom for me means allowing others practices, rituals, and beliefs I disagree with and/or find appalling.
Sincerity (despite my bringing it up in the first place) is actually not particularly relevant here. Only public profession of a belief, or overt practices and rites, are at issue, and they're at issue because, being public, they affect people outside the professing / practicing group.
If insincerity can be shown, that's another issue; then it becomes clear that the intent of the profession or practice is to discriminate, not to profess / practice.
In the case of the pizzeria people, a refusal to cater a gay wedding holds no water if it can be shown that they regularly serve pizza to already-married gays in their establishment.
And, unless they demand to see some sort of non-existent "straight card" at the door, they may well have been doing this all along.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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