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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: Tat to be melted down and used for.....
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the famous rachel
Shipmate
# 1258
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Coot:
Actually I thought it was a pretty piss-poor effort at taking the piss. Neither funny nor subtle. Piss-taking in Maestro's vein only works if one is a known Anglocatholic. That is, self-piss-taking. Otherwise, it is just an offensive wind-up.
He certainly managed to confuse me! Thankfully I both looked at his profile, and read Wood's comments before I jumped in and made a total fool of myself. Please note that had I jumped in, it would have been to defend ACs - even if rather late in the day! All the best from,
A rather repentant, but still not particulalry famous, Rachel.
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A shrivelled appendix to the body of Christ.
Posts: 912 | From: In the lab. | Registered: Aug 2001
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tomb
Shipmate
# 174
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Posted
Yeah, Maestro's post sort of confused me, too, and I'm a Host and Know Everything and Nothing Confuses Me (tho' Quite A Bit Annoys).I was looking forward to eviscerating him, but then I checked his profile and sheathed my claws. So *pace*, Coot. {sigh} And hell has been so quiet recently. Haven't had a decent meal in ages. Better luck next time, I suppose. I chalk this one up to the absence of verbal signifiers in a text-based system. tomb
(hellhost & deconstructionist)
Posts: 5039 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: May 2001
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joan the Dwarf:
Or female tat princess servers (hello) who hate loathe and despise wearing skirts or dresses in everyday life?
Tat princesses, ay? That sounds full of English promise and makes me come over all lecherous like. I think you should (to quote Rev Gerald) go forth with a deep sense of condemnation at having caused your sister to stumble. Some mortification of the flesh is in order, preferably going a whole Sunday without swinging a thurible or doing dress ups.
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
Hey Wood: quote:
Apologies. It's just that - and this may possibly be my own perception here - you have a real mad-on for the diocese of Sydney, and mention them an awful lot...
Yeah I suppose I do. We A-Cs are a very embattled lot in Sydney, and the actual threat of having our beautiful churches stripped of their tat by zealous evangelical reformers (sometimes for precisely the reason Rachel proposed in her OP, but more often in the name of "Biblical Accuracy" - whatever they mean by that) is only as far away as the Archbishop refusing to allow us to get a A-C rector, or sending his emissaries to white ant the congregation... And these things have happened. I can think of at least 3 places in the last 10 years that this has happened to. And I suppose I use the Ship to vent alot of my frustration; there are a largish number of sympathetic A-Cs here who understand, and with whom I am able to converse and exchange ideas... As well as everyonelse! So sorry for ranting about Sydney sometimes, I do get worked up about it. *sigh*
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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Fiddleback
unregistered
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Posted
I've seen the light!Thank you, Miss o! Would anyone like to swap 32 latin chasubles (all with stole, maniple, burse 'n' veil), a French monstrance, a silver thurible, 4 lace albs and several baroque candlesticks for an OHP and screen, some wall to wall thick pile carpet, 300 comfy plastic chairs and 300 copies of Mission Praise?
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the famous rachel
Shipmate
# 1258
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
300 comfy plastic chairs
If there such a thing as a comfy plastic chair? quote:
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
[QB]300 copies of Mission PraiseQB]
Aaargh no. Now I see me real sin. I am not turning people away from Tat* but towards mission praise.  * Not that you should turn away from Tat.  All the best, Rachel
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A shrivelled appendix to the body of Christ.
Posts: 912 | From: In the lab. | Registered: Aug 2001
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Maestro
Apprentice
# 1881
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Posted
Time to poke my head above the Rood Screen again, but perhaps I should explain first of all that I am by tradition a High Anglo-Cath (evangelical division) who sometimes feels the need to question traditions and who hates hypocrisy. I also have a thing about being a bit God centred rather than 'thing' centred.Coot - It was not my intention to cause the level of offence which you obviously found in what were supposed to be slightly tongue- in- cheek comments. However,I've spent enough time in the TAT sheds of London, Oxford etc to know the difference between real God centered worship and a 'show'and believe me, - 'shows' do exist, particularly in Anglo Catholicism, although some of my charismatic brethren loose the plot at times as well. Occasionaly, I find myself having to stop and ask where God is amidst all of the Anglo-Catholic symbolism. (and I'm one myself, remember !). I just think that sometimes, its good for us all to take a step back and question what we do an why we do it. That's the point I was trying to make in a somewhat sarcastic way (but this is hell after all). Hope we can shake (extends virtual hand) - or at least agree to differ. Moo... Female Anglo-Catholic priests ??? are you sure....
Erin....
I know it may cause a bit of grief, but this is a great thread. After all If we can't stand the heat....... 
I'm off to organise the annual orange-throwing ceremony (with as much TAT as possible.. I promise to cense them and spinkle them with Holy Water - only not in that order of course... Goodwill to all Maestro
Posts: 14 | From: Newbury, Berks UK | Registered: Nov 2001
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Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf
Ship's curiosity
# 1283
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joan the Dwarf:
Or female tat princess servers (hello) who hate loathe and despise wearing skirts or dresses in everyday life?
quote:
To which the Coot replied:Tat princesses, ay? That sounds full of English promise and makes me come over all lecherous like. I think you should (to quote Rev Gerald) go forth with a deep sense of condemnation at having caused your sister to stumble. Some mortification of the flesh is in order, preferably going a whole Sunday without swinging a thurible or doing dress ups.
Sibling Coot, I apologise unreservedly for so placing this stumbing block. I shall mortify my flesh forthwith. How about Sunday after next? I shall dedicate my tat-free Sunday to the Lord in deep penitance. It can also be my penance for the deeply impure thoughts I entertained about the very nice young lady at the bank this afternoon...  [Unsnarled the UBB code. The software does not permit one to nest a quotation within a quotation. ] [ 07 December 2001: Message edited by: tomb ]
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"There is a divine discontent which has always helped to better things."
Posts: 1123 | From: Floating in the blue | Registered: Sep 2001
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katybird
Apprentice
# 1897
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Posted
quote:
And another thing. I was at the Victoria and Albert Museum in London recently. There is a fine collection of religious vestments and objects. Amongst them is a chalice which some clutz has labelled as follows " ...It WAS believed that the wine became the blood of Christ ... " ... WAS .... WAS !!!!
OUCH!!! That made my teeth ache!
At the Cleveland Museum of Art, they have a really nice reliquary containing several relics in crystal chambers. They were still in there, and there were what appeared to be teensy little scrolls of rolled up paper - about the size of a fortune-cookie fortune - in with them. Like all the museum objects, this one had a label cataloging its physical "ingredients" (You know "Oil on canvas" "Carved oak with polychrome and gilt" etc). This one said "Reliquary, 12th century, German (or whatever it was). Gold, enamel, precious stones, rock crystal, relics." Um... perhaps you could IDENTIFY the relics? After all, I think an art historian could make a pretty good guess, based on provenance, the images on the thing, AND THE LITTLE SCRAPS OF PAPER! Nothing even to explain what a relic IS. I find visiting the Cloisters in NYC to be upsetting. For, though I love to see all the wonderful things there, it makes me so sad to see it all divorced from it's intended setting. There's a "chapel" set up with contemporary scraps of eclesiastical things from France. It makes me soooo sad, because it's not REAL. The altar isn't really consecrated and doesn't really go with the things around it. There are stools in the room to make it feel churchy, but it's just all wrong. For me, anyway. [added a bold UBB tag] [ 10 December 2001: Message edited by: tomb ]
Posts: 2 | From: Philadelphia, PA | Registered: Nov 2001
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the famous rachel
Shipmate
# 1258
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by katybird:
This debate reminded me of a very upsetting article I read in the New York Times Sunday Magazine a couple of years ago.
Hi Katy, I read the article with interest. I found it thought-provoking rather than offensive and upsetting. One of the things I have been thinking about since starting this thread has been the challenge that has been put to me (several times ) to sell everything I have and give it to the poor.
Perhaps in order to avoid the personal issues this raises, I have been thinking about what would happen if we all did that. By "all" I mean every Christian, of whatever stripe. I don't know what the curent figures are, but we are talking perhaps 10% or so of the populations of Britain and the US. Now, if we all gave everything we possess to the "true" poor - ie those who can't afford food, clothing or shelter, rather than those who can't afford a car, or a computer - then, this would have a sizeable affect on consumer spending in the west.
I was in the US during and after the 9/11 attacks, and one of the things I remember about the news coverage after things had started to calm down, was that the powers that be were trying to keep people spending money - maintaining consumer confidence I think it's called - as this was one of the things which was most likely to prevent recession. Now, if all of us either sold everything we had and gave it to the poor - or as Singer is suggesting, gave all our "spare" cash, then the downturn in consumer spending would be significant, which might be enough to precipitate global recession and a massive increase in worldwide poverty. Tricky, huh? So, is my thinking sensible, or is this just the kind of moral cop out of which I accuse other people? . I know I seem to be trying to play both ends against the middle here - for which I apologise. This thread has made me think if nothing else, and this is part of my thought process. All comments welcome, All the best, Rachel.
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A shrivelled appendix to the body of Christ.
Posts: 912 | From: In the lab. | Registered: Aug 2001
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blackbird
Shipmate
# 1387
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Posted
rachel, we really do need your sense of justice in the world...but i'm afraid i disagree with your tactic for helping the poor. i think crucifer is right about the poor sometimes squandering what is given to them. often the poor don't have the habits necessary for prudent spending. or they've gone without for so long that they feel compelled to be extravagant when they come into a little money. we all like to feel good. some anthropologists have found that when studying indigenous people, a common experience noted by those doing the studying is theivery and begging for "stuff" by the local people. apparently acquiring things is something we almost all find irresistable.also, as a child raised in poverty, i'm not sure i can agree that giving to the poor helps in and of itself. i can, unfortunately, point to many people in my family who have been poor, none of whom i would like to see enabled by handouts...my father squandered his paycheck at the pubs, my brother-in-law gambled the house out from under himself, my sister and her 3 toddlers, my cousin drank himself to death leaving 5 children penniless. having almost been on the receiving end of "giving to the poor" i can say that it frequently doesn't make it past the most powerful in the family...usually the user, abuser, self-centered authority...not that we aren't all entitled to food and shelter, mind you...it's just that fixing things isn't quite so simple. i thank God St. Paul's cathedral existed in boston for me to go on my lunch hour...i'd light candles there and sit and think... and at the heart of all the excess of the city, i felt where the center was.
Posts: 1236 | From: usa | Registered: Sep 2001
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Crucifer
Shipmate
# 523
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Posted
blackbird:
I guess my point was not clear enough. What I was referring to is that if the poor were given more money, they might go out and spend it on things that more affluent people would consider necessities--not that they would waste it. For example, a poor person might go out and buy a cheap used car that would enable them to drive to a job, whereas if the same money was spent by a wealthy person, it might be spent on a new stereo system or something like that. The point is that spending helps the economy, regardless of whether it is a rich person or a poor person spending the money, so justifying the retention of wealth by the already well-off on the grounds that it is better for the economy, does not appear to be a valid argument. (But then, I don't have an economics degree, either ).
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Crucifer
Posts: 232 | From: Diocese of Rupert's Land, Canada | Registered: Jun 2001
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Scottie
Apprentice
# 1528
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Posted
As one who has moved from Baptist to RC I've seen life at both sides of the "tat" barrier as it were. I can relate to Rachel's point because when I was Baptist, I confess that was my point of view as well - but now that I've crossed over - I can see that evangelical churches have their own version of tat which although seldom displayed in museums has cost probably as much, doesn’t look as good, and benefits only those in the church. What is this stuff - technology - pa systems, multimedia projection systems, computers, lighting rigs etc etc. Any self respecting "alternative" service seems duty bound to have a pa system worthy of Wembly - Industrial Light & Magic style lighting rig and enough multimedia kit to make a U2 concert look boring. Does all this stuff count as "tat"? It seems to serve the same visual function but without the sacramental value and as far as cost goes - a monstrance, cross, candlestick or whatever is bought once - and used for many, many years - modern technology dates within months and having a husband in the sound industry - I know how much this kind of kit costs to rent. Even a moderately sized evangelical church (such as the one I used to belong to) has a concert sized pa system with all the related mics, amps, speakers, compressors, main desk, taping desk etc etc - all this for two Sunday services and the odd event. The church office is equipped with 5 Apple Macs, printer, e-mail, a small print and file sharing network and the pastor has a laptop - all paid for by the church. I'm sure that this church is not unique. Yet, they'd be the first to throw stones at the RCs and Anglo-Catholics. I guess at the end of the day we're all guilty, both individually and corporately as Christ's Church of looking after our own interests before those of the poor - and when the day of judgement comes, we will be judged on what WE did as individuals - how did OUR lives measure up.God bless
Scotty
Posts: 8 | From: Scotland | Registered: Oct 2001
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scottie:
I can see that evangelical churches have their own version of tat which although seldom displayed in museums has cost probably as much, doesn’t look as good, and benefits only those in the church.
How does any tat benefit those outside the church? Not a swipe... I really want to know.
quote:
Even a moderately sized evangelical church (such as the one I used to belong to) has a concert sized pa system with all the related mics, amps, speakers, compressors, main desk, taping desk etc etc - all this for two Sunday services and the odd event. The church office is equipped with 5 Apple Macs, printer, e-mail, a small print and file sharing network and the pastor has a laptop - all paid for by the church. I'm sure that this church is not unique.
Medium sized? It may not be unique, but it sounds very affluent to me. quote:
I guess at the end of the day we're all guilty, both individually and corporately as Christ's Church of looking after our own interests before those of the poor - and when the day of judgement comes, we will be judged on what WE did as individuals - how did OUR lives measure up.
Amen to that at least?
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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blackbird
Shipmate
# 1387
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Posted
sorry if i misunderstood, crucifer...thanks for clarifying...i agree with your point economically, but i still throw cold water on the idea that the poor won't waste money...any more than anyone else...and perhaps more because they don't have the stability that nurtures wise investment...and may never have it. a lot of people lose motivation when they are guaranteed basic necessities. this does not mean i don't think we should care for people in need...but it can become a vicious cycle after a while. affordable housing, education, parenting classes, and raising confidence and expectations...i think those are worthwile investments for "the poor" if we hope to really help.truthquest, i think it depends on the locale as to how much the poor feel like outsiders. when i was 9 my family moved to a different city, not affluent, but parts were well-heeled. that's when my family stopped going to church because my parents felt so out of place, and their names were posted on a public list of people who did not tithe...whereas in a poor innercity neighborhood (full of tat, thank God for something beautiful!), even the episcopal church had a large contingent of poor, so we fit in.
Posts: 1236 | From: usa | Registered: Sep 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scottie:
But to spread the net a bit wider - what is the benefit of the church as a whole to those outside it... unless we should get rid of all of the tat, old and new, sell all we have and become as Christ - homeless and posessionless - sounds good on paper, but I know I can't do it.
If the tat or the elaborate sound systems enable people to worship God better and draw closer to him, then this should have an effect on their behavior outside the church. The closer you are to God, the greater awareness and compassion you have for other people. I don't think that outreach necessarily has to be done by the church as an institution. It can also be done by individual Christians using their particular talents to reach out to those they come in contact with. I have known saintly people working in secular jobs who showed God's goodness to those who would never enter a church. I think this kind of witness is at least as effective as any program a church could come up with. Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Old Fashioned Crab
Shipmate
# 1204
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Posted
quote:
An icon in the home consecrates the profane; it transforms a neutral dwelling-place into a "domestic church". With prayer, it turns and the life of the faithful into an unceasing liturgy
I like this idea very much. Are there any particular activities associated with icons in the home?
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O dear white children casual as birds,
Playing among the ruined languages,
So small beside their large confusing words,
So gay against the greater silences
Of dreadful things you did
Posts: 397 | From: Croydon UK | Registered: Aug 2001
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Astro
Shipmate
# 84
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Posted
OK what about buildings, should our church buildings be sold off and the land used for low cost housing? Given the amount spent on the upkeep of buildings are the churches that meet in hired school halls onto a good thing? For a while I lived in a parish where one particular church seemed to be known to the non-church goers as the "church with the collection box"!
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if you look around the world today – whether you're an atheist or a believer – and think that the greatest problem facing us is other people's theologies, you are yourself part of the problem. - Andrew Brown (The Guardian)
Posts: 2723 | From: Chiltern Hills | Registered: May 2001
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Old Fashioned Crab
Shipmate
# 1204
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Posted
There was a very interesting PCC at my Church recently in which we discussed how we were going to raise the £0.5 million needed to keep the rain out of our Church and also restore some victorian fixtures at the east end. In the same meeting we discussed, and voted in favour of a diocesan report recommending cuts in central services, including 15 discretionary clergy posts, to the value of £1.5 million. It was observed that the RC Church in our town has 11 Church buildings, where as the C of E has 44. Now, I daresay every congregation thinks it has a right to hang on to its ugly, tumbledown brick pile. My fellow parishioners plainly feel it is worth prioritising the preservation of our particular grade 2 listed building. But I would sooner have seen the clergy posts kept and a few buildings sold off for apartments.
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O dear white children casual as birds,
Playing among the ruined languages,
So small beside their large confusing words,
So gay against the greater silences
Of dreadful things you did
Posts: 397 | From: Croydon UK | Registered: Aug 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I have only been into one home with lots of icons (the widow of a clergyman)
If you're near Seattle on the first of January, you're welcome to our New Year's Day party! And you can see a normal Orthodox family's home with its many icons. quote:
Together with the wall paintings they are like a giant child's picture bible.
And in the days before universal literacy, this was more important than you might guess. Iconoclasm was, in part, an effort to take the gospel away from the poor (whether by accident or by intent, is left as an exercise to the reader). Icons have a "language" all their own, a symbolism code that, once learned, unlocks the story of the saint or event depicted. quote:
I suppose our equivalent is stained glass windows.
Only the really good ones, the historical ones with great images. A rose window, although beautiful, does not tell a story. quote:
I have heard that the icons are not like idols or graven images to be worshipped but are to be looked through to the worship beyond. Whether or not this is easy to do, or requires a lifetime of practice, it is certainly true that they are magnificent works of art.
Some are. Some are butt-ugly. At one time one of the tsars of Russia actually prohibited people from writing icons who couldn't draw, because the icons were getting so ugly and garish. It does, indeed, take a lifetime to learn how to "use" icons properly. As a former evangelical, there is some hesitation in my response to icons, as well as some measure of going overboard after long years of starvation. Reader ALexis
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
Well, our PCC have just voted to increase our diocesan contribution (for clergy salaries etc.) despite having to raise money for our exceedingly leaky roof. We do not own much of value since most has already been nicked. I suggested selling off the organ.....  .....howls of protest  I am not a PCC member, so I take no credit for their decision.
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London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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Scottie
Apprentice
# 1528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sacredthree:
1: Alt.Worship is not my nature Evangelical
2: Alt.Worship does not require lots of Gizmos
3: Yes it is Tat, and yes like most Tat it is worth it.
1. Could you elaborate on that - in the part of the UK where I live, any and all alternative worship services have been run by churches who would label themselves Evangelical.
2. I did not say that it did - but it frequently makes use of them. 3. Worth what? God bless Scotty
Posts: 8 | From: Scotland | Registered: Oct 2001
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scottie:
1. Could you elaborate on that - in the part of the UK where I live, any and all alternative worship services have been run by churches who would label themselves Evangelical.Scotty
Down here, mebbe because of use of candles, physical movement around the place, no specific preaching, acceptance and integration of differing points of view, the idea that it's a bit 'new-agey', some evangelicals don't like it. I have experienced it mainly in feminist groups, people who feel distanced from the church, lent prayer retreats and groups who don't feel tied to trad liturgy. The only really high-tech/high-tat time was at friends' wedding, where we all wore fancy dress and had a multi-media occasion in a barn on a farm.
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London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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Scottie
Apprentice
# 1528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scottie:
3. Worth what?
Sorry - just re-read that and it sounded very snotty - I just wondered what you meant by "worth it". I can see the worth of both high-tech and traditional "tat" as long as it draws the worshipper closer to Christ and so become more like Him - but as no-one but God knows what goes on in the heart of the individual - one man's tat may be another man's route to the divine. Peace Scotty
Posts: 8 | From: Scotland | Registered: Oct 2001
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Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf
Ship's curiosity
# 1283
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Posted
Pyx_e - I thought exactly the same when I read that at MP. And thought it was a good reminder not to let tat become an end in itself or something we make holy: its worth comes soley from God who makes it holy.
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"There is a divine discontent which has always helped to better things."
Posts: 1123 | From: Floating in the blue | Registered: Sep 2001
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RevTimothy
Apprentice
# 1882
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Posted
Thanks, Mousethief for the Orthodoc input above.Now I had all this worked out in my head a day or so ago - i bet I can't remember what I wanted to say - it was so eloquent too i think that this question over whether tat (liturgical or buildings) should be got rid of to pay money to the poor falls into the trap of humanism rather than Christianity. Surely Christians are such because they seek and worship the Ineffible Other that became Man, not to throw a bit of cash around? Our focus is on Paradise where the Beatitudes are realised? Sure social justice in this world is an intimate part of the working out of our faith in the fear of God, but splashing the cash is just not going to do it! The fundamental issue with poverty is not access to money but access to the means of production - ownership of land, control over ones own farming and subsistence requirements (at a basic level). Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day, give a man a rod and teach him to fish and feed him for a lifetime - give a man a river and he will take away what you gave to him. In addition, our natural reaction to God is to offer him the best of what we can provide in our own sinful way - of ourselves and our belongings, thus God is due all the wealth (and primarily BEAUTY) that we can muster. Now modern sensibilities err towards a simple beauty rather than the effusive - I as a clergyman prefer simple, yet beautiful Churches and vestments, but that does not mean that we don't use the finest materials we can lay our hands on. Pant, pant, did that make sense?
Kindest
Timothy
Posts: 40 | From: Peterhead, Scotland | Registered: Nov 2001
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And that's as close you'll get to a kiss and make up offer.
