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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: The BBC - Now Springer!
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Traveller
Shipmate
# 1943
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Posted
The Better Half has just looked at the TV guide and commented that Jerry Springer looks like the best thing on the box tonight.
If I believed in conspiracy theories, I might believe it was planned that way. ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
OTOH, I might just be on the Ship a lot this evening. ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
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I will sing unto the Lord as long as I live:
I will praise my God while I have my being.
Psalm 104 v.33
Posts: 1037 | From: Wherever the car has stopped at the moment! | Registered: Dec 2001
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barrea
Shipmate
# 3211
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Posted
Quote by Ken
A few people - and it is only a few - started whinging about it.
My immediate reaction?
"How dare they try to stop me seeing this play?"
Why would you, if you are a Christian want to see a show That insults and mocks our lord and Saviour
Also it is not just a few people who are protesting against it. We are not protesting so much about the disgusting language which can be heard anynight on TV, as the blasphemy which is
ridiculing God and making nim an object of laughter. I feel angry that this show is going out and angry that so many people on this thread
seem to think that there is nothing wrong with it and some even find it funny' Shame on You.
I think that all true Christians should protst about the showing. As for myselt I would like to see it banned on the TV and in the theatre.
I know I shall be classed by some as a biggot but I don ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif) 't care.
In some countries Christians are dying for the faith, here some won't even stand against blasphemy
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Therefore having been justified by faith,we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:1
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Well I shall be watching it. I expect to find most of it terminally boring and tedious, (the profanity part ... a zillion f**** and you long for a real swear word). C.S. Lewis characterised hell as a very boring place because sin was oh so predictable. Perversely I am therefore looking forward to the "naughty bits" as relief from the mind numbing tedium of it all (bad taste joke Barrea) ... but then again I have never liked American or American-style musicals. This will be a REAL Purgatory. ![[Frown]](frown.gif) I shall stand ready with my email of complaint. What matters now is keeping the pressure up.
[ 08. January 2005, 17:36: Message edited by: Father Gregory ]
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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barrea
Shipmate
# 3211
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Posted
Sorry I did not mean to put the snigger in . I just picked the wrong one I meant anger not snigger
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Therefore having been justified by faith,we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:1
Posts: 1050 | From: england | Registered: Aug 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
<tangent>
quote:
Originally posted by barrea:
some rambling nonsense about true Christians
I have had avatars turned off for a while now, but I turned them on yesterday to check something. I am now in absolute hysterics over barrea's, considering that his "let's talk" avatar is half of the graphic for the board Let's Talk TITS & TESTICLES, where we discussed all kinds of sexual things in very graphic detail.
</tangent>
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Glimmer
Ship's Lantern
# 4540
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Well, I for one would be ok with it, because I am able to recognize plays, television shows and movies for what they are: make-believe.
That's cool, but honestly, are you happy that enough other people have your maturity of discernment? What about the power of make-believe to influence real life? There is no doubt that patently make-believe advertising influences real-life behaviour. Don't you get upset at the unquestioning acceptance and emotional involvement of say, soap operas on the television? I bet you do!
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The original, unchanged 4540.
The Temple area, Ankh Morpork
Posts: 1749 | From: Ankh Morpork, Dorset | Registered: May 2003
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Traveller
Shipmate
# 1943
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Posted
The BBC Website has a page Should BBC show Jerry Springer opera? which seems to have a lot of comment on it. Searching for "Gregory" produces no hits? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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I will sing unto the Lord as long as I live:
I will praise my God while I have my being.
Psalm 104 v.33
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
IngoB, doesn't "freedom for excellence" imply "freedom of choice"? If you want to learn to play Bach, you have to have the freedom to begin with random crap and progress through exercises, easier pieces, and so on. Having freedom of choice to pursue freedom of excellence means that some people might choose to play something you don't like. The existence of bad music is the price that you must pay in order to be free to play Bach.
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
You know Erin ... I have just searched Barrea's posts on Purgatory and I haven't found a single reference to sex. Maybe you've got the wrong end of the stick and so your "joke" falls flat.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
What comes to mind for me is the 'Springtime for Hitler' number in 'The Producers' - complete with high kicking nazis and also Dennis Potter's play 'Brimstone and Treacle' which was banned by the BBC for eleven years on account of a scene where the Devil rapes a mentally handicapped girl but which was screened in I think 1987. Drama has always dealt with taboo subjects - think for a moment about all the murder and incest in Oedipus Rex or the matricide in Oresteia both of those have been on the BBC in one production or another. I've already mentioned the high body count and sexual deviation with the Gods which you can get in classic operas.
In these kind of surreal dramatic or operatic contexts (especially when your talking about things like a character in a play or an opera hallucinating something bizarre) it's hard to think what would be beyond the pale because we know it's an illusion - it's not real.
L
[ 08. January 2005, 18:15: Message edited by: Louise ]
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
(My last was a response to Glimmer which got rather separated from his query by intervening posts.)
L.
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
... as indeed are the violent video games that disturb some young minds into psychopathy. If you are prepared to take that risk Louise then that's a risk you must take strictly for yourself.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
... as indeed are the violent video games that disturb some young minds into psychopathy. If you are prepared to take that risk Louise then that's a risk you must take strictly for yourself.
I don't think anyone has suggested otherwise. You, however, have been insisting on making the decision for everyone else.
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013
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Posted
I just want you to know Fr Gregory, that I'll only be watching the 'Opera' to keep me awake until Match of the Day shows Oldham Athletic knocking Man City out the FA Cup!
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Scot, this really is ridiculous. Would you support a pornographic image (hardcore that is) on a bill hoarding? ... no you wouldn't. Why? Because an impressionable youngster might see it. Additionally, perhaps because it would coarsen our public life. Now, how is that different from limiting other offensive material easily accessible on the TV? The issue here is the degrading effect on everyone, not just the young. The erosion of a sense of the sacred is not something morally neutral ... but we have all been beguiled into thinking that it is ... or something simply a matter for personal choice.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
We're not talking about a pornographic billboard, are we? We're talking about an Opera late at night on BBC2. A minority artform on a minority channel at a time when we may trust that our children and servants will be safely tucked up in bed.
Frankly, if it wasn't for all this free PR you've been doing for them, it would have been watched by a handful of modern opera fans from the wine and cheese belt of Hampstead whose morals, for good or evil, are hardly going to be affected by an opera. My main TV interest this evening was in Exeter's heroic 0-0 demolition of Manchester United, but I shall now feel obliged to watch the Jerry Springer thing out of curiosity. If I turn into a Monster of Depravity, I shall be sure and let you know.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
Scot, this really is ridiculous. Would you support a pornographic image (hardcore that is) on a bill hoarding? ... no you wouldn't. Why? Because an impressionable youngster might see it. Additionally, perhaps because it would coarsen our public life.
Interesting, coming from someone who is so sensitive about having words put in his mouth.
I am not concerned about what might "coarsen our public life" and I don't worry about kids getting naughty ideas that sex might be a good thing. I would not support such a billboard because it violates common community standards and cannot be reasonably avoided by those who would be offended. Televisions, unlike billboards, can be turned off.
The question is not whether this production is morally neutral. It isn't. The question is whether individuals are free to watch and judge it, or whether the decision should be made by an authority, such as the state or the church.
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
Perhaps it's a bit late now, but I want to go back to what IngoB said about freedom of excellence. I agree absolutely. And as my excellence increases, I am able to challenge the norms I was taught and break the rules. Sometimes it will be good, sometimes not. Often, perhaps usually, it will offend people. But would anything progress if it was not done?
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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Rex Monday
None but a blockhead
# 2569
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
... as indeed are the violent video games that disturb some young minds into psychopathy. If you are prepared to take that risk Louise then that's a risk you must take strictly for yourself.
Which young minds are these, precisely? Scanning through the literature, I can find plenty of studies that show kids who behave aggressively tend to play aggressive videogames - you know, I was sure they'd stick to Scrabble - and that playing violent video games can get you pretty hyped over the short term. Long term issues are very far from being shown, and I can find not one case of a clinical case of psychopathic behaviour that's been tied to a videogame. Perhaps that's because the high-risk kids are all still listening to heavy metal backwards, watching snuff movies, going to rock and roll concerts or whatever induces hypercardia in their elders and betters.
Can you point me at a clinical case of videogame-induced psychopathic behaviour, and the stats of how that compares to other causes of mental disorder, such as Christmas?
(Aside: My son (now 19) is a videogame addict, and is also fond of gore in general, in that charming teenage way. He also experienced an aggressive environment (state school in Tower Hamlets, anyone?) for a long time, and for the latter part of his teenage years has had pretty much unfettered access to that scary Internet thing. His politeness puts me to shame, and I grew up listening to Radio 4.)
In a previous post, you said:
quote:
The fact that Springer has won awards has no more significance for me than Hitler approving of the work of Leni Riefenstahl. I don't accept the category of art critic as "expert."
So if you don't count art critics as experts in art, who do you count? Are you like the creation science institutions, which make a basic tenet of their science that first and foremost, it must not conflict with their literalist reading of the Scriptures?
And seeing as you're waving me down the Godwin road, I might recommend you spend a few minutes reading about the history of Entartete Kunst, an excellent example of what happens when a rigid worldview declares that art is only valid if it corresponds to certain political and religious philosophies.
Would you count qualified psychologists as 'experts', by the way?
R
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I am largely against organised religion, which is why I am so fond of the C of E.
Posts: 514 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: Mar 2002
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013
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Posted
With regard to Freedom. Whether we live by Freedom for Excellence, or Freedom of Choice, we cannot escape a certain Law. We reap what we sow. In other religions - Karma.
Here's a homily about Freedom of Excellence by a RC Priest.
Homily on Freedom
I find this homily to be rather frightening, not because of its basic ideas, I like the idea of Freedom for excellence. What frightens me, is that this is a call to obedience. As Voltaire cried, 'Remember the atrocities!' There is no mention of those here.
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Dear Rex Monday and Scot
I am aware of all the chicken and egg arguments about violence in the media and violence in society. What you are all missing here is the truism that what a society manifests in the public arena is taken to establish the norms, possibilities and constraints of its shared values, (otherwise there would be no basis for democratic legislation). Whether a child is allowed to stay up to late or (safely) immerses himself in gore is not really the primary issue here at all ... notwithstanding that I used it to make a subsidiary point. It's what us adults deem to be OK that matters.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
I responded to what you wrote in your post. Are you planning on returning the favor? To reiterate, "The question is whether individuals are free to watch and judge it, or whether the decision should be made by an authority, such as the state or the church."
Or, should I assume that you were weighing in on the side of individual freedom when you wrote, "It's what us adults deem to be OK that matters."
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
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Cartwheel
Apprentice
# 5149
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Posted
Fr G
I say "Do as you would be done by"
You bring up cannibalism. Now as I understand it, this is a way of seeing whether my principles hold in a very extreme case (and it's not something I've ever seriously thought about so I DON'T KNOW, though my immediate reaction to the idea is "yuk".)
Now, as I understood it, Jerry Springer the opera looks at how the Jerry Springer show works on much the same lines - i.e. they take the Jerry Springer format and say "what if instead of 'trailer trash', we used the holiest people we could think of and attempted to fit them into this format". I don't think this is being gratuitously offensive, any more than you were being. Why do you assume it's gratuitous?
Posts: 25 | Registered: Nov 2003
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Dear Scot
quote:
"The question is whether individuals are free to watch and judge it, or whether the decision should be made by an authority, such as the state or the church."
Should individuals be free to watch a snuff movie? No. That single example destroys any contention that there should be universal access to any material. The question resolves to:- "why not this material or otherwise?" To answer that would involve me repeating much of my posting on this thread.
quote:
Or, should I assume that you were weighing in on the side of individual freedom when you wrote, "It's what us adults deem to be OK that matters."
No, that meant that we have a responsibility to determine those things.
Dear Cartwheel
As I have already said on this thread, it is my contention that the extent and use of profanity / blasphemy goes well beyond the single claimed intent of the musical. (See my reference earlier to the British Board of Film Censors).
[ 08. January 2005, 19:29: Message edited by: Father Gregory ]
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
Should individuals be free to watch a snuff movie? No. That single example destroys any contention that there should be universal access to any material.
Hardly. Your example includes a measurable harm to an actual victim. For that reason, production of the movie is prohibited. Purchasing the movie creates a market and thereby contributes to the harm done to the victim and is therefore also prohibited. However, aside from issues of production and acquisition, simply watching a "snuff movie" is not illegal (here, anyway), nor should it be.
In the case of the Jerry Springer opera, we are talking about people saying some words that you don't like. It is hardly the same thing, quantitatively or qualitatively, as killing people on film for profit.
However, I agree with you that we each have a responsibility to determine which things matter. We should not allow the you (or the state at your behest) to make that determination for us.
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Glimmer:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Well, I for one would be ok with it, because I am able to recognize plays, television shows and movies for what they are: make-believe.
That's cool, but honestly, are you happy that enough other people have your maturity of discernment? What about the power of make-believe to influence real life? There is no doubt that patently make-believe advertising influences real-life behaviour. Don't you get upset at the unquestioning acceptance and emotional involvement of say, soap operas on the television? I bet you do!
I don't see that Erin is responsible for the exercise of the 'maturity of discernment' in 'other people'. And I wonder who can confidently claim to be.
Funnily enough, (don't know about Erin) but I can a little riled, rather than upset, when I come across the occasional example of someone who lets themselves get pulled into soapland. But I have no wish to stop them watching. Firstly, because if they are ordinary rational people like me and you, being sucked into the fantasy is their choice; and secondly, because most ordinary rational people don't get sucked in to begin with.
If they are not ordinary rational people then the likelihood of them needing soap opera specifically (or tonight's offering) to encourage them in their delusion is small, and their lack of 'maturity of discernment' could be as evident in a trip to the shops for a pint of milk as in switching on BBC2, 10 o'clock on a Saturday night.
Speaking personally, I am anticipating (which is prejudicial of me I know) my reaction to the show to be that certain sections of it are at least impious, and that a part of me will be wondering how the actors dare to 'image' Christ in the way that he is supposed to have been portrayed. And I don't mean 'how dare they!' from an 'is outrage' perspective, but from a 'gosh, aren't they worried about thunderbolts from above' kind of persepective.
I know it's a naive reaction, (I don't think I even believe in a thunderbold dealing God!), but it does speak of the awe that I do feel for the person of Christ, and the disturbance I feel within myself that there should be an impious distortion of that person, albeit in such a plausible context.
I guess I'm in the totally inconsistent position of not wishing to prevent others from viewing it, but also wishing that it had never been created.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Pasco
Shipmate
# 388
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Posted
quote:
Its main target is cheap television that uses people and makes them objects of ridicule.
Shocking Private Revelations Involving Noisy Gesticulations Expletively Reciprocated - ?
Posts: 997 | From: Domiciling 'ere, living locally. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Glimmer
Ship's Lantern
# 4540
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Posted
Louise and Scot
Is there any material you would not wish your parents or children to see, that you would object to on their behalf?
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The original, unchanged 4540.
The Temple area, Ankh Morpork
Posts: 1749 | From: Ankh Morpork, Dorset | Registered: May 2003
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Dear Scot
I think it's both possible and desirable when two people are at an impasse in a discussion with irreconcilable positions for that exchange to come to a natural conclusion. It's not that we misunderstand each other or are being obtuse ... either of us. We just have radically different positions on this one. Peace.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Glimmer
Ship's Lantern
# 4540
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Posted
And it's not on late at night on a minority channel, for Goodness' sake, it's on now - nine o'clock in the evening on BBC2 with other terrestrial channels showing a 'mystery' drama and tabloid stuff.
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The original, unchanged 4540.
The Temple area, Ankh Morpork
Posts: 1749 | From: Ankh Morpork, Dorset | Registered: May 2003
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Glimmer:
Louise and Scot
Is there any material you would not wish your parents or children to see, that you would object to on their behalf?
My parents? Absolutely not. They are adults and can choose to watch what they want. I shield my children from viewing some things, but generally only things that would be too confusing (as opposed to corrupting) for them to grasp at their current ages. It is extremely rare for us to encounter something in this category that we cannot readily avoid.
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
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HopPik
Shipmate
# 8510
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Posted
I haven't read this thread, only just looked at it and it's too long. We are going to watch the show tonight with our teenage children, doubtless have a lot to talk about afterwards. What has shocked me about what I've heard in the media these last couple of days, is how so many of my fellow Christians have totally failed to understand what free speech is about. Because freedom of speech doesn't just include the right to offend, it IS the right to offend. It's only when people are offended that they'll want to shut you up, if you're never going to offend anyone you don't need freedom of speech!
And of course if you are offended, you have the right to reply, within the law, which is where those Sikhs went wrong the other week. But there is no such thing as a right not to be offended, or to silence those who offend you. Being offended is part of life. Live with it. Are we Christians so pathetic we can't handle that?
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Never wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and supposedly the pig enjoys it. G.B. Shaw
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Glimmer:
And it's not on late at night on a minority channel, for Goodness' sake, it's on now - nine o'clock in the evening on BBC2 with other terrestrial channels showing a 'mystery' drama and tabloid stuff.
Glimmer, that's the feature about the Jerry Springer show which precedes it - not the opera which doesn't start until ten and goes on until midnight and BBC 2 is meant to be a minority channel for arts and things not expected to draw ratings on BBC1.
With regard to your previous post you miss my point about context. In the context of a hallucinatory episode by a character in a comic opera late at night I can't think of any fictional portrayal not involving actual harm/exploitation to those doing the acting/involved with the production which I would automatically want to have banned. If stuff is done in a surreal manner as part of a ludicrous hallucination in an opera, it is simply not in the same ball park as non-fictional depictions of bestiality, child abuse, cannibalism etc.
With regard to my own children, (if I had one apart from part shares in the fiance's teenager) it would depend on the child and what I knew about their ability to cope with fictional depictions of stuff. When one of my friends was very young she couldn't cope with Bambi's mother dying - that doesn't mean the whole of UK television must be pitched at the level of a four year old. I would expect to make that decision - not the broadcasters and if I did have a naughty child who sneaked off to a friend's home and watched a controversial opera on BBC2 instead of drinking vodka shots and playing Grand Theft Auto to all hours, I'd probably be surprised and delighted.
L.
PS the idea of censoring what my parents would watch is just daft to me - they're adults that's up to them.
[ 08. January 2005, 20:50: Message edited by: Louise ]
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Broadcast +9 minutes. First reaction, puerile, boring. Waste of good voices. It's only act 1 though so I don't expect things to change before Act 2. See ya later. Jerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
....Ban the show? Well, most of us don't want it banned at all - although, even perhaps the most die hard "freedom-of-expressionists" here might cavil at a (different) musical celebrating the "joys of paedophilia."....
I realize it's in the movie theaters rather than on BBC, and it's not exactly the "joys of paedophilia", but I really must bring to your attention, Father Gregory, the existence of this movie review.
Perhaps you can take it on as your next campaign to save us all from the horrors of a secular society.
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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Glimmer
Ship's Lantern
# 4540
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Posted
Yes, Louise, I know the first hour is a build-up, but it is still part of the programme (anyone decided to skip the first part? Or anyone watching the first part then switching off?). And my point about Saturday evening is still valid, I think.
quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
BBC 2 is meant to be a minority channel for arts and things not expected to draw ratings on BBC1.
Perhaps it was in the sixties but it's not now.
quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
With regard to your previous post you miss my point about context. In the context of a hallucinatory episode by a character in a comic opera late at night I can't think of any fictional portrayal not involving actual harm/exploitation to those doing the acting/involved with the production which I would automatically want to have banned.
Well, I may not have expressed myself adequately. My interest with this thread is much more with the way people have different moralities when it comes to themselves. From your above comment, it appears that you don't mind very realistic and convincing depictions of horrible acts as long as no-one got actually hurt. [/QB][/QUOTE]
quote:
<snip> their ability to cope with fictional depictions of stuff.
Yes, of course. That's perfectly natural to me. BUT you are taking upon yourself the responsibility to judge what is acceptable to someone else. At times I thought that FG was a fox with the baying hounds after his blood - I just don't believe that those advocating complete freedom of expression for others really have nothing to which they would object themselves. I could go on fetching up examples but that would be pointless and just get us into a wrangle over semantics.
I hope you enjoy the show; I'm sure you will appreciate the irony and satire that will be missed by many who are looking for thrills.
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The original, unchanged 4540.
The Temple area, Ankh Morpork
Posts: 1749 | From: Ankh Morpork, Dorset | Registered: May 2003
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Well, I'm up to the "baby" sketch ... and I honestly don't know how I'm going to endure the next 83 minutes. It's just so unfunny, (no, I actually mean, not funny). The audience are laughing ... I'm asking:- "at what?" It feels like it's seaside humour ... go on say something naughty, go on, go on ... Oh OK (to rather nice music) p***, f***, s*** ... various orifices back to score etc. more of the same tee hee ... how funny! NOT. Stifles yawn.
Of course, it's Act 2 that I'm waiting for.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
I've given up. Boring, boring. And mildly disagreeable, because I hate opera and the Jerry Springer show. Have a great evening, Gregory!
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Well at least we're totally agreed on that Hatless. As I said earlier I am only staying with this for Act 2. I really really really hate American and American style musicals, (only marginally more so than the Springer genre itself. Eh up Jerry's got shot. Good ole Kirsty Wark is warning us now about the blasphemy. She can't use that word of course ... just in case a judge awakes from his slumber.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Talitha
Shipmate
# 5085
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Posted
Imagine if all the people protesting about Jerry Springer: The Opera protested about something really obscene, like child slavery, unfair trade laws, third world debt, imprisonment without trial, torture, <insert your favourite cause here>.
Posts: 554 | From: Cambridge, UK | Registered: Oct 2003
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Glimmer:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Well, I for one would be ok with it, because I am able to recognize plays, television shows and movies for what they are: make-believe.
That's cool, but honestly, are you happy that enough other people have your maturity of discernment? What about the power of make-believe to influence real life? There is no doubt that patently make-believe advertising influences real-life behaviour. Don't you get upset at the unquestioning acceptance and emotional involvement of say, soap operas on the television? I bet you do!
Not really. In fact, I've never given it much thought. As to others having my maturity of discernment... well, on the whole, people are stupid, so I have no doubt that the world would be a better place if I were in charge. But like it or not, society in the form of the government has decided that people 18 and older are responsible for their very own selves. Neither I nor you nor Fregory have been given the task of deciding what's best for everyone else. Fregory seems to think he has, but he hasn't, not really.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Glimmer
Ship's Lantern
# 4540
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Posted
Go on, Talitha, tell me it would make a difference. And precisely to whom should protests be made?
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The original, unchanged 4540.
The Temple area, Ankh Morpork
Posts: 1749 | From: Ankh Morpork, Dorset | Registered: May 2003
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rex Monday:
As is playing the piano. Surely the history of the 20th century is precisely that freedom is something to be worked at, often to the death.
First, let's not get silly about piano playing - it's largely meant as an analogy, not as a demonstration. Obviously, everybody accepts that a large amount of practice has to go into making a good piano player, whose freedom actually means something (namely, having a large range of music he can play). Practical skills can never go all the way with "freedom of indifference", although some "craftsmen" seem to be trying hard. ![[Biased]](wink.gif) The essential point is that with regards to social and moral (and religious...) behaviour, we have largely lost the idea of "freedom for excellence". At best it has been relegated to child rearing, again because it is unavoidable there. However, for adults "freedom of indifference" rules supreme: "If I choose to do this, what gives you the rights to restrict my freedom?" This argument is essentially absolute, without considering what it is that is being done - pure Ockham.
I would also like to keep the struggle for democracy and against tyranny a separate issue. On that issue it's enough to point out that St Thomas Aquinas, a champion of "freedom for excellence", actually suggested representative democracy as the ideal form of government. He was also in favor of the separation of church and state (although he acknowledged - correctly - that the pope at that time was both a religious and secular power). All that in the 13th century!
quote:
Originally posted by Rex Monday:
Ingo seems to be promoting the idea of rigid hierarchies of 'proper' thought, with the higher levels having complete control over the lower - including how one progresses upwards.
Actually, no. The very first thing that gets critiqued when you adopt "freedom of excellence" is the rigid morals of obligation that have been introduced - since the time of Ockham (go figure...). It is obvious, really: if faced with a freedom which is indifferent to "the good", the answer which has to be given in order to maintain "the good" is an ever growing catalogue of rules covering all eventualities. Which has meant that Christianity has largely lost its plot, busying itself with being a moral watchdog of the faithful. A perfect example of this is how the "Sermon of the Mount" - a pure piece in "freedom of excellence" - has lost its pride of place in Christian morals, and actually vanished from the moral manuals! It was replaced by the Decalogue and legalistic derivations from it to deal with "cases of conscience". But again, this is much better discussed in Pinckaers' book.
If everybody - or most people - followed "freedom of excellence", our problem here would simply disappear! I assume that this play is actually bad, that it is not is some way or the other a major cultural advance, not even in the sense of a "minority rebellion". Note that I've asked about three times if anyone thinks otherwise, and apparently nobody really does. Thus: an excellent playwright would not have written the play, an excellent theatre manager would not have staged it, excellent actors would not have taken part in it, excellent theatre visitors would not have watched it, excellent critics would not have given it awards, excellent BBC program directors would not have picked it up, and an excellent TV audience would ignore it completely anyway.
If I'm asking for "restrictions", then that's simply a pragmatic response in our current environment dominated by "freedom of indifference". However, my ideal world is quite different.
quote:
Originally posted by Rex Monday:
Records, the radio and cheap music technology now means that people can hear and make keyboard music in many more ways. There's a lot more rubbish, but there's a lot more new and exciting and diverse stuff too - and as people are able to sort out the rubbish for themselves, this is a very good thing.
I'm not opposed to progress in any way. Excellence does not mean ignoring developments, to the contrary. To cite the modern music industry as a sign of good progress seems somewhat ironic though - Brittney Spears vs. Mozart and all that.
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
IngoB, doesn't "freedom for excellence" imply "freedom of choice"? If you want to learn to play Bach, you have to have the freedom to begin with random crap and progress through exercises, easier pieces, and so on. Having freedom of choice to pursue freedom of excellence means that some people might choose to play something you don't like. The existence of bad music is the price that you must pay in order to be free to play Bach.
"Freedom of choice" is not exactly the same as "freedom of indifference". The additional, detrimental, idea in "freedom of indifference" is that on the level of choice it does not matter what the alternatives are like, what matters is purely that you get to choose between them. Thus, if I'm "free", that means I can choose crap if I'm so inclined. However, note that excellent piano players (to refer back to the analogy) clearly have the freedom of choice to play random crap on the piano, but practically never choose to do so. They are not indifferent to this at all, it hurts their ears! Actually, because that is so, they can make a point by playing random crap. If the greatest pianist of our times chooses to randomly whack the keys, it can mean something. If I do it, I'm just making noise.
"Freedom for excellence" implies an endless learning progress along a trajectory of "good". Clearly, at the beginning I must be allowed to choose to play the piano rather incompetently: nobody is an instant "master", indeed, that's the very point here. But note that right from the start I need to choose "good" in order to progress: I must play finger exercises, as boring as they may be, rather than random crap, as fun as that may be (for a while). Otherwise I will not become more free. Acknowledging this learning process implies also humility: I will not claim that my finger exercises are "great music". (By the way, concerning morals the Decalogue would be exactly the Christian equivalent to "finger exercises", not the "greatest music".)
Thus, yes, lots of "bad music" will be played in the quest for "freedom of excellence". But that's just judging from the final goal of perfection. However, in truth along the way at every point one plays the best music one can! It's just that one gets better with time...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Glimmer
Ship's Lantern
# 4540
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
<snip>... well, on the whole, people are stupid, so I have no doubt that the world would be a better place if
... someone I could trust ... quote:
were in charge.
I do so agree.
By the way folks, it did occur to me that why do we need to have a satire on the Jerry Springer thing, if we are smart enough to see through the real thing anyway?
Hope everybody who watched it thought it was worth staying up for. Truly.
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The original, unchanged 4540.
The Temple area, Ankh Morpork
Posts: 1749 | From: Ankh Morpork, Dorset | Registered: May 2003
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Yes, from where I'm standing; my original surmise is correct. It is blasphemy and it doesn't serve the artistic purpose of the satire. It goes well beyond that. Only a culture that thinks the whole thing is a fairy story could have produced something like this. It is indeed sickening. I will listen to the last 22 minutes but I should imagine that I will be making a formal complaint. What sickens me little less is to have endured this thread as well and heard from Christians who think that, according to some sort of higher principle, this execrable garbage can be justified. This is me bowing out now. Nothing more to see here from my point of view at least.
[ 08. January 2005, 22:38: Message edited by: Father Gregory ]
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Wow, what a fantastic show!!!! ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
So clever the way the second half linked in with the first half.
Brilliant singing.
Very thought provoking.
Monty Python meets Les Miserables.
How on earth will I manage to keep a straight face in church tomorrow? ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Glimmer:
Yes, Louise, I know the first hour is a build-up, but it is still part of the programme (anyone decided to skip the first part? Or anyone watching the first part then switching off?). And my point about Saturday evening is still valid, I think.
quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
With regard to your previous post you miss my point about context. In the context of a hallucinatory episode by a character in a comic opera late at night I can't think of any fictional portrayal not involving actual harm/exploitation to those doing the acting/involved with the production which I would automatically want to have banned.
Well, I may not have expressed myself adequately. My interest with this thread is much more with the way people have different moralities when it comes to themselves. From your above comment, it appears that you don't mind very realistic and convincing depictions of horrible acts as long as no-one got actually hurt.
quote:
<snip> their ability to cope with fictional depictions of stuff.
quote:
Yes, of course. That's perfectly natural to me. BUT you are taking upon yourself the responsibility to judge what is acceptable to someone else. At times I thought that FG was a fox with the baying hounds after his blood - I just don't believe that those advocating complete freedom of expression for others really have nothing to which they would object themselves. I could go on fetching up examples but that would be pointless and just get us into a wrangle over semantics.
I hope you enjoy the show; I'm sure you will appreciate the irony and satire that will be missed by many who are looking for thrills.
If you can't appreciate the difference between two different feature programmes providing context - including an interview from the director of the Churches Media Council - and the very opera which you say represents such a horrid departure from normal standards then you're just discrediting your own case.
And no I don't 'mind very realistic and convincing depictions of horrible acts as long as no-one got actually hurt.' I watch, for example, Quentin Tarantino films and I understand the concept 'this isn't real - it's only a movie' - perhaps because I have been involved with programming and screening films or other media since I was fifteen and was encouraged to think about the issues involved.
I am not taking it upon myself to judge what is acceptable to someone else - I know the programme is unacceptable to Father Gregory and many others - I said so earlier in this thread
quote:
I don't expect you to like the programme, I respect the fact that you think it is offensive and awful and should never be screened by the BBC,
My issue is with public service broadcasters being neutered to spare the religious sensibilities of those who don't want to watch the programme themselves because it conflicts with their religious beliefs, but who won't allow those whose religious beliefs aren't offended and who do want to watch to see it.
And I am not advocating complete freedom of expression for others, or saying that nothing ever offends me. I am saying that in this sort of surreal context (a hallucinatory scene in a comic opera) the fuss isn't IMO justified, and I'd find it fairly hard to be so offended by something done in such a surreal vein that I'd want it banned, and additionally, that stirring up a huge campaign about blasphemy in order to stop something like that sets a bad precedent which may come back one day to bite Christians and others on the bum.
Finally if this sort of debate, where I know I for one have been careful to look at the relevant legislation, provide supporting evidence and give examples and links to back up my arguments, is your idea of being torn apart by a pack of hounds, then I suggest you talk to more foxes.
L.
[saw opera, will stick review in different post]
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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Dave Marshall
Shipmate
# 7533
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Posted
Exactly my reaction, Chorister. Never thought an opera would keep my interest for 2 hours.
Now, were you being ironic? I'm not.
Posts: 4763 | From: Derbyshire Dales | Registered: Jun 2004
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HopPik
Shipmate
# 8510
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Posted
I'm on the whole with Chorister here, though with some reservations... eg I blinked somewhat at a line in the finale to the effect that there is no right or wrong... though that's not really a religious objection, I'd have blinked as hard in my atheistic years.
Like all everyday art it was a mixture... profound and shallow in turns. Great art is only such with hindsight. Day to day we get what the workers at the coalface turn out, some good and some bad. The depiction of Jesus as a baby who says he's a "bit gay" is a travesty of the Jesus of the gospels, but I'd say it's a fairly accurate satire on the way Jesus is thought of by some Christians. I have in particular mind here the Christian Fellowship at my college!
Fr Gregory I think said something criticising Christians who will accept blasphemy in the name of some "higher principle". To me the hightest principle is that of free expression, and I believe that comes from God. Jesus died on the cross mainly because he refused to keep his mouth shut. When people cannot speak the truth as they see it, all manner of nightmares will fill the vacuum. Springer the Opera wasn't a masterpiece, it wasn't Verdi, it was just workaday art doing its job. And I applaud it.
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Never wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and supposedly the pig enjoys it. G.B. Shaw
Posts: 2084 | From: London | Registered: Sep 2004
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Ham'n'Eggs
Ship's Pig
# 629
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
You know Erin ... I have just searched Barrea's posts on Purgatory and I haven't found a single reference to sex. Maybe you've got the wrong end of the stick and so your "joke" falls flat.
Or just maybe Purgatory does not comprise the entire Ship, so a substantial amount sneaks under your radar.
quote:
Originally posted by barrea on "School of Prophesy" :
I have got a copy of the'Act of Marriage'still on my bookshelf. I bought it at the Dales' Bible week about 1978. I don't know why I bought it as I had had been married for 27 years then. Pehaps I wanted to get the Christian view of things. If anyone wants it they can have it,or maybe do an exchange for a book of sex for the well over 70s
However I think that what Erin had in mind was rather his regular diatrabes against "swearing" (read "uncouth language") referred to on threads such as Language:
quote:
Originally posted by barrea:
Take no notice of them Angelfish. You are wasting your time with this lot. Yhey do not understand.
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"...the heresies that men do leave / Are hated most of those they did deceive" - Will S
Posts: 3103 | From: Genghis Khan's sleep depot | Registered: Jun 2001
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