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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: CofE clergy titles
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Cruet
Shipmate
# 14586
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Posted
Why are CofE clergy generally addressed as Vicar?
This is uncommon in TEC.
[ 29. September 2011, 07:34: Message edited by: Spike ]
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snake belly land
Posts: 92 | From: Houston, Tx | Registered: Feb 2009
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
Because the vast majority of parish clergy are vicars. I know a couple of villages where the priest is always addressed as 'rector' but that is rarer. Only in a self-consciously advanced Anglo-Catholic shacks is the vicar called "father." Don't think I've ever heard of an English priest being called "mother."
And nowadays, many are just called by their first names. Times changes and so do vocative customs.
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All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
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Lucia
Looking for light
# 15201
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Posted
There's a bit of the history of the titles Rector and Vicar as used by the C of E in this Wikipedia article.
I would guess the historical precedents are different in TEC.
If you scroll down on that page and click on Vicar (Anglicanism) you get more information but I can't link to that page because it's got brackets in the URL!
[ 11. June 2011, 15:57: Message edited by: Lucia ]
Posts: 1075 | From: Nigh golden stone and spires | Registered: Oct 2009
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AberVicar
Mornington Star
# 16451
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Because the vast majority of parish clergy are vicars. I know a couple of villages where the priest is always addressed as 'rector' but that is rarer. Only in a self-consciously advanced Anglo-Catholic shacks is the vicar called "father." Don't think I've ever heard of an English priest being called "mother."
And nowadays, many are just called by their first names. Times changes and so do vocative customs.
We ain't in England (but not too far away) and this is hardly a self-conscious community, and we don't do shacks. Even so, the Vicar of Abertillery has been called Father for over a century. I also get called Vicar, Rector, by my forename, surname, Reverend - and also various other things - the rude ones usually restricted to people outside the parish... ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
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Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, make sure you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes.
Posts: 742 | From: Abertillery | Registered: May 2011
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
There are technical differences between vicars and rectors - to do with historic titles and tithing (not the modern version), so older parishes can have rectors, whose income came, at least in part, from glebe land or other tithes.
You don't address anyone as Rev or Reverend correctly in English English> It is a formal form of address in writing when it takes the definite article - the Reverend [name], and the correct abbreviation is Rev'd.
Father is very Anglo-catholic and many people will not use it as they would see it as papalism, although I can think of people who do call their parish priest Father. There are some CofE churches with the boards inscribed "Father [name]", although I suspect many of the ministers concerned are now part of the Ordinariate. The Roman Catholic priest in town is known as Father.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Father is not all that 'advanced' a-c, though obviously those outside the worshipping community will be less inclined to use it. 'Mother' is rarer, and probably used much more self-consciously and maybe semi-jocularly, but I know of a couple of parishes where their (women) priests are addressed thus.
'Vicar' is the good old standby. I have only been 'vicar' for about half my ordained life but it's not worth being pedantic about it.
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
Isn't it true that before the Oxford Movement - and in fact right up till maybe the 1950s or so - most Anglican priests (in England, anyway) were called simply "Mister"?
That's what I'm to understand. (If true, was it also true in the U.S., does anybody know?)
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
I once knew a parish priest of an American Episcopal Church that was on the high side of things back in the swinging 60s. One Sunday this priest walked into said church which unfortunately had just received word that the scheduled supply priest would be unavailable that Sunday. Someone on the search committee for the new rector noticed the collar on this stranger and walked over and said "Mister or Father." My aquaintance shot back an inquizical "?" and the person asked again "mister or father." Then the priest vaguely understood and answered "I prefer 'father'" and from the smiles that grew on the the face of the questioner, proceedngs were begun and the visiting priest became the rector for a very, very long time.
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All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
Isn't it true that before the Oxford Movement - and in fact right up till maybe the 1950s or so - most Anglican priests (in England, anyway) were called simply "Mister"?
That's what I'm to understand. (If true, was it also true in the U.S., does anybody know?)
Like Mr Beebe and Mr Eager in A Room With a ViewI believe that's the case. I remember finding some old service sheets from the 1950s in the library of my former parish, and the rector (this is in the USA) was referred to in the announcements as "Mr. Eddy." The rector when I was there (late 1980s) was called "Father Link" by some, and he was comfortable with that.
[ 11. June 2011, 16:36: Message edited by: Oblatus ]
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
"Father" isn't particularly Anglo-Catholic in the USA, nor even exlusively High Church. Lots of MOTR places have had that usage, though it varies regionally and from diocese to diocese. Use of first names has somewhat supplanted the Use of Father as a form of address in recent years. "Mother" is also encountered in places that are basically MOTR to High-ish MOTR.
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jordan32404
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# 15833
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Posted
Are there cases of Anglican clergy in the US being called "Vicar" or "Rector" (or even perhaps "Pastor")? Something like, "Good morning, Vicar/Rector/Pastor X"
Posts: 268 | From: Albany, NY | Registered: Aug 2010
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Joan_of_Quark
Anchoress of St Expedite
# 9887
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
It's Mr Collins in Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice too, thinking about it.
And the dreadful Mrs Elton in Emma has a habit of referring to her husband as "Mr E."
Round here (London UK) it's mostly Rev'd Ann, spoken or in writing, and occasionally Sister Ann. Mother is rare but not unheard of.
I've heard of women priests using Father as their own title but never met one or seen it in writing. Is this attested anywhere?
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"I want to be an artist when I grow up." "Well you can't do both!"
further quarkiness
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jordan32404:
Are there cases of Anglican clergy in the US being called "Vicar" or "Rector" (or even perhaps "Pastor")? Something like, "Good morning, Vicar/Rector/Pastor X"
Rare, if ever - at least in my experience. "Pastor" seems (to me at least) a more Lutheran/Baptist thing. I don't believe I've ever heard an Episcopal priest called this.
Never "Rector" - that's more or less a function here. (As you'd never call a corporate VP "Vice President Smith.")
Maybe Vicar - but nobody uses that around here that I know of, except in downtown Manhattan! In parishes there, you often have both a "Rector" and a "Vicar." Nobody uptown understands what this is about, though.... ![[Biased]](wink.gif) )
[ 11. June 2011, 17:28: Message edited by: TubaMirum ]
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joan_of_Quark:
I've heard of women priests using Father as their own title but never met one or seen it in writing. Is this attested anywhere?
Heard of this, too, and I still think it's bizarre.
What makes sense to me is "Mother" for female priests in the same shacks where male priests are called "Father."
I've also heard "Pastor N." used in places where "Father" and "Mother" are deemed too A-C and where there's collaboration with Lutherans. But even RC parishes, which have "pastors," never use "Pastor" as a form of address. Interesting to observe the differences from place to place in Anglicanism (not a complaint; just an observation).
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
Never "Rector" - that's more or less a function here. (As you'd never call a corporate VP "Vice President Smith.")
A former bishop of this diocese had his own rules (which everyone was supposed to follow) calling clergy by their function or position. Rectors were called "Rector Whoever," and other priests were "Priest So-and-So." Envelopes were addressed the same way. We all cringed and happily returned to normal when he retired.
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Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
In the United Church of Canada it's "Rev. X, Minister of Y United Church" or "Z Pastoral Charge".
Clergy are Ministers. It's all very Kirky, showing our heritage.
In conversation a minister might be Rev. Firstname, Rev. Lastname or just Firstname.
The correct abbreviation in the UCCan is Rev., none of this Rev'd stuff. Even ordained Moderators, the only people who deviate from pure Rev. to Right Rev. during office and Very Rev. after their three-year term use Rev.
Some ministers might call themselves Pastor but I find that to be excessively Baptist.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
Isn't it true that before the Oxford Movement - and in fact right up till maybe the 1950s or so - most Anglican priests (in England, anyway) were called simply "Mister"?
Until the late 19th century most Roman Catholic priests were also 'Mister'. Indeed it's debatable whether 'Father' came into general use before a few Anglo-catholics (the East End priest Father Wainright for example) became so known. Though of course Religious priests would have been 'Father'.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
Isn't it true that before the Oxford Movement - and in fact right up till maybe the 1950s or so - most Anglican priests (in England, anyway) were called simply "Mister"?
Until the late 19th century most Roman Catholic priests were also 'Mister'. Indeed it's debatable whether 'Father' came into general use before a few Anglo-catholics (the East End priest Father Wainright for example) became so known. Though of course Religious priests would have been 'Father'.
Is this a particularly English thing? I mean, in France, RC priests have always been "Pčre," haven't they?
Maybe just a Reformation thing, I guess?
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Quam Dilecta
Shipmate
# 12541
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Posted
In the USA, the Rector/Vicar distinction does survive, at least on paper. A self-supporting parish is led by a rector, whereas a mission aided by the diocese is led by a vicar. To digress a bit, the title "curate" seems to be disappearing, having been replaced by "associate rector" or some such term borrowed from the business world. Is "parish" doomed to be replaced by "franchise"?
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Blessd are they that dwell in thy house
Posts: 406 | From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA | Registered: Apr 2007
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Business world? In Presby parlance they are Associate Ministers, have been forever. You may be flying a bit too close to PCUSA but that never hurt anyone.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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wrinkley
Apprentice
# 7673
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Posted
The rector of my church is addressed as "Father".
He said that he had been addressed as Rev'd, but felt that that was too high an honour, as Rev'd means 'Honorable" and he wasn't sure he was.
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If I can see, If I can feel, If I can hear, And if I can speak,breath, and if I have love, there is nothing else that I need
Posts: 13 | From: usa | Registered: Jun 2004
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
Is this a particularly English thing? I mean, in France, RC priests have always been "Pčre," haven't they?
Maybe just a Reformation thing, I guess?
No, only religious priests are Pčre; diocesan priests are Abbé even today. In most histories of the church in France in the 19th Century, a lot of the priests will be referred to as "Monsieur <last name>."
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
AFAICT, John Wesley always styled himself "Mr. Wesley".
I style myself Br. Joshua, but that is because I am a member of a religious order. If I weren't, it would be Mr. Joshua.
ETA: It bugs me when people give themselves the title "Reverend". I've always been given to understand that "reverend" is a term you give to others as a sign of respect, never to yourself.
[ 12. June 2011, 05:20: Message edited by: Padre Joshua ]
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
Never "Rector" - that's more or less a function here. (As you'd never call a corporate VP "Vice President Smith.")
A former bishop of this diocese had his own rules (which everyone was supposed to follow) calling clergy by their function or position. Rectors were called "Rector Whoever," and other priests were "Priest So-and-So." Envelopes were addressed the same way. We all cringed and happily returned to normal when he retired.
Why the cringe? This seems quite sensible to me. In fact, with the exception that we only do it with sacramental/canonical order and not job titles, that is the practice we follow in the Orthodox Church.
Forms of address such as "Vladyka" and "Father" are somewhat informal and may be affectionate (such as at the dismissals at services) but if you shouldn't find them in any directory of clergy. If you do, it is probably convert influence from another tradition.
Properly, we are addressed by our sacramental place within the Body of Christ. Laymen and women are "the servant/handmaiden of God, name; clergy are "Priest name, Protodeacon name, and so forth.
This makes sense to me, as our life in the Church is a sacramental one.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
Isn't it true that before the Oxford Movement - and in fact right up till maybe the 1950s or so - most Anglican priests (in England, anyway) were called simply "Mister"?
Until the late 19th century most Roman Catholic priests were also 'Mister'. Indeed it's debatable whether 'Father' came into general use before a few Anglo-catholics (the East End priest Father Wainright for example) became so known. Though of course Religious priests would have been 'Father'.
The Father / Mister distinction was actually between 'religious' / 'secular' clergy (ie monastic / parochial). Until The 19th century parish clergy Roman and Anglican were usually known as Mister (as they are in other European languages). Before the Reformation 'Sir" (as in Spanish 'Don") was common.
Following Catholic Emancipation and mass Irish immigration to England Catholic parishes were frequently served by religious (trained secular priests just not being available). Catholics therefore got used to thinking all priests were called Father.
It is indeed possible that it was Anglo-Catholic parish clergy who first started using Father (to emphasize their sacred calling) and that Roman secular clergy followed suit.
'Mother' or "Mo' is not unusual among (the relatively few)Anglo-Catholic parishes inLondon which have women priests.
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sacred London:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
Isn't it true that before the Oxford Movement - and in fact right up till maybe the 1950s or so - most Anglican priests (in England, anyway) were called simply "Mister"?
Until the late 19th century most Roman Catholic priests were also 'Mister'. Indeed it's debatable whether 'Father' came into general use before a few Anglo-catholics (the East End priest Father Wainright for example) became so known. Though of course Religious priests would have been 'Father'.
The Father / Mister distinction was originally between 'religious' / 'secular' clergy (ie monastic / parochial). Until the 19th century parish clergy Roman and Anglican were usually known as Mister (as they are in other European languages). Before the Reformation 'Sir" (as in Spanish 'Don") was common.
Following Catholic Emancipation and mass Irish immigration to England Catholic parishes were frequently served by religious (trained secular priests just not being available). Catholics therefore got used to thinking all priests were called Father.
It is indeed possible that it was Anglo-Catholic parish clergy who first started using Father (to emphasize their sacred calling) and that Roman secular clergy followed suit.
'Mother' or "Mo' is not unusual among (the relatively few) Anglo-Catholic parishes in London which have women priests.
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
The Father / Mister distinction was originally between 'religious' / 'secular' clergy (ie monastic / parochial). Until the 19th century parish clergy - Roman and Anglican - were usually known as Mister (as they are in other European languages). Before the Reformation 'Sir" (as in Spanish 'Don") was common.
Following Catholic Emancipation and mass Irish immigration to England Catholic parishes were frequently served by clergy from religious orders (trained secular priests just not being available). Catholics therefore got used to thinking all priests were called Father.
It is indeed possible that it was Anglo-Catholic parish clergy who first started using Father (to emphasize their sacred calling) and that Roman secular clergy followed suit.
'Mother' or "Mo' is not unusual among (the relatively few) Anglo-Catholic parishes in London which have women priests.
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
The Father / Mister distinction was originally between 'religious' / 'secular' clergy (ie monastic / parochial). Until the 19th century parish clergy - Roman and Anglican - were usually known as Mister (as they are in other European languages). Before the Reformation 'Sir" (as in Spanish 'Don") was common.
Following Catholic Emancipation and mass Irish immigration to England Catholic parishes were frequently served by clergy from religious orders (trained secular priests just not being available). Catholics therefore got used to thinking all priests were called Father.
It is indeed possible that it was Anglo-Catholic parish clergy who first started using Father (to emphasize their sacred calling) and that Roman secular clergy followed suit.
'Mother' or "Mo' is not unusual among (the relatively few) Anglo-Catholic parishes in London which have women priests.
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
I would like to delete this double posting, but 'flood control' won't let me.
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
Flood control problems
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
It should never, ever, be Reverend Smith; if the Reverend is to be used, the proper address is either,the Rev Mr (or Ms) Smith. Otherwise, it is simply Mr or Ms Smith, or Father Alf or Mother Jenny.
But of course there is the excdption to even such an ironcast rule. The previous chaplain at school was always "Rev", and remains such with his emeritus status. He even has his own rgby jersey, with REV emblazoned on it.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
We only use Rev Mr. for deacons; priests use Rev for formal occasions, Fr. otherwise.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joan_of_Quark:
I've heard of women priests using Father as their own title.
Oh good Lord! Bring Miss Amanda some smelling salts, there's a dear!
It is also common in the USA for women attorneys to use the title "Esq." when everyone knows that only a gentleman can correctly do so. To her credit, I once heard a woman attorney opine that her colleagues should adopt "Goodwife" as their honorific, to be abbreviated "Gdwf" of course. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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anne
Shipmate
# 73
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Posted
I almost always introduce myself as "Anne" and that's what most people call me, but in the last week I've also been addressed in the following ways:
"Am I going to Hell Vicar?" (by a bridesmaid swigging gin from a hip flask as we waited for the bride to arrive)
"This is for Father Anne" (by a young member of the Sunday School)
"It's the Rev." (my Dad who thinks that this is hilariously funny)
"Hello, Reverend Anne" (by a funeral director.)
By and large, if people are polite, I'll answer to most things, and I'm getting more relaxed about the 'Father' thing, since it's mostly used by youngsters who are clearly doing their best and not being at all cheeky.
I'm also reminded that my Mum's 'phone book always has the parish priest under P for Parson.
anne
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‘I would have given the Church my head, my hand, my heart. She would not have them. She did not know what to do with them. She told me to go back and do crochet' Florence Nightingale
Posts: 338 | From: Devon | Registered: May 2001
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minstermusic
Shipmate
# 16462
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Posted
I have never considered 'Father' to be a particularly AC form of address - around these parts, most clergy who are middle-of-the-road use it.
One thing which does irritate me is the incorrect use of 'Reverend'. This really started after the ordination of women to the priesthood when people usually from a non-church background didn't know how to address them. (Despite what some others have said, I've never encountered 'mother') Thus interviewers will address someone as 'Reverend Angela', 'Reverend Smith', or perhaps worst of all, just plain 'Reverend'. These of course are quite wrong - the title should only be used when referring to someone as 'The Reverend Angela (or A.) Smith'.
A priest I know was once most amused to receive a letter from a couple enquiring about getting married, where they addressed him as 'Your Holiness'. Very singular!
First prize however must go to Mrs Proudie, wife of the Bishop of Barchester, who really wore the trousers (or gaiters) in the Bishop's palace, yet very deferentially always addressed her husband as 'My Lord'.
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Take heed ye unwise among the people: O ye fools when will ye understand? Ps.94.8.
Posts: 103 | From: Stoke-on-Trent | Registered: Jun 2011
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
I'm afraid it might be simpler than the ordination of women--American usage has probably crept its tentacles across the pond. Titles and honorifics are not as big a deal in America as they are over there. Overall, we just don't care.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
I'm in the UK and not sure I've ever actually met a vicar who wants to be called Father (I'm sure they exist I just haven't been in those circles). I'd find it a bit odd to be honest, but then I tend to be in MOTR churches these days where the vicar tends to be called by the first name.
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
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tomsk
Shipmate
# 15370
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Posted
This is a good explanation of the technical differences between rectors, vicars and curates.
For practical purposes, the changes in financial arrangements, and the modern trend for priests in charge on (at least in theory) fixed-term contracts to be appointment, rather than incumbents with the freehold, has lead to the difference disappearing.
Posts: 372 | From: UK | Registered: Dec 2009
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Joan_of_Quark:
I've heard of women priests using Father as their own title.
Oh good Lord! Bring Miss Amanda some smelling salts, there's a dear!
It is also common in the USA for women attorneys to use the title "Esq." when everyone knows that only a gentleman can correctly do so. To her credit, I once heard a woman attorney opine that her colleagues should adopt "Goodwife" as their honorific, to be abbreviated "Gdwf" of course.
This thread came to mind today. I was engaged in a conversation with an RC bloke I met at hospital, politely curious about my denomination, and whether I was a priest(I was collared up visiting a parishioner); and throughout the whole conversation he kept calling me 'Father', very casually and in a natural way.
I came to the conclusion he just simply didn't know what to call any other kind of clergyperson, let alone a lady-lumpity kind like me! So he was just addressing me in the same way he would've his own priest.
It was the most peculiar feeling, though. It left me chuckling all the way home. I don't think I would like to be 'Father' all the time though! I'm quite happy with all the variations on 'Reverend' and 'Rector' and my name that I usually get.
[ 12. June 2011, 20:42: Message edited by: Anselmina ]
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Joan_of_Quark
Anchoress of St Expedite
# 9887
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Posted
So we've had a couple of sightings in the wild of women who are OK with others calling them Father, but none who prefer it or suggest it themselves. Maybe these fabled creatures do not in fact exist? Or maybe it's about time someone tried it!
Ordained people here: did you change your title on passport, credit cards etc. or do most people stay as Mr/Ms/etc on those?
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"I want to be an artist when I grow up." "Well you can't do both!"
further quarkiness
Posts: 1025 | From: The Book Depository | Registered: Jul 2005
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Emma Louise:
I'm in the UK and not sure I've ever actually met a vicar who wants to be called Father (I'm sure they exist I just haven't been in those circles). I'd find it a bit odd to be honest, but then I tend to be in MOTR churches these days where the vicar tends to be called by the first name.
If it's a choice between 'Father' and 'Sir' (let alone 'Reverend') I prefer the former. I'm ambivalent about people addressing me by christian name; I generally prefer it but get the feeling some people might try to take advantage of over-familiarity. Hence I mostly prefer 'Father Christianname' in semi-formal situations or on first meeting.
When I worked with a female colleague who didn't want to be Mother, I quietly encouraged people to drop the Father for me as well. To give one priest and not the other a courtesy title is worse than giving one to neither.
As someone upthread pointed out, 'Sir' used to be a title for priests in the middle ages. Nowadays I'm sure it's extremely rare, but in the rural village where I grew up certain of the more traditional (and often upper-middle-class, who would have expected to be thus addressed by their 'inferiors') laity addressed the clergy thus.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joan_of_Quark:
So we've had a couple of sightings in the wild of women who are OK with others calling them Father, but none who prefer it or suggest it themselves. Maybe these fabled creatures do not in fact exist? Or maybe it's about time someone tried it!
Ordained people here: did you change your title on passport, credit cards etc. or do most people stay as Mr/Ms/etc on those?
Renewing my UK passport I learnt that one would have to provide evidential proof of the 'Reverend' bit. Much easier just to be First Name, Middle Name, Second Name. No title required. Not that attached to the handle.
I notice that one of my credit cards has a 'Rev' on it; must have been a black out moment. I think I'm otherwise Miss on non-clerical related paperwork. Though I've also noticed that since moving to Ireland people are more inclined to put the 'Rev' on, if they know I'm a clerge.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755
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Posted
I had Rev. on one credit card. This was the one I used for church expenses and I did it so it was easier to keep business expenses separate, when it came to tax time.
Posts: 2641 | From: Third planet from the sun. USA | Registered: Nov 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
Titles and honorifics are not as big a deal in America as they are over there.
As a Brit who worked for a US company for 14 years, I can assure you that that is not true, On the whole Americans are far more formal than we are and care far more about rank and titles.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
Titles and honorifics are not as big a deal in America as they are over there.
As a Brit who worked for a US company for 14 years, I can assure you that that is not true, On the whole Americans are far more formal than we are and care far more about rank and titles.
Like the Italians, Germans and to a slightly lesser extent, the French. Think of all those Professors, Doctors, Engineers, Advocates, to say nothing of Herr Doktor Advocat, not as descriptions of the occupation, but as a title for everyday use. Once there's no real basis for a title, it becomes much more important to have one.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
Titles and honorifics are not as big a deal in America as they are over there.
As a Brit who worked for a US company for 14 years, I can assure you that that is not true, On the whole Americans are far more formal than we are and care far more about rank and titles.
okay, ken
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by minstermusic:
I have never considered 'Father' to be a particularly AC form of address - around these parts, most clergy who are middle-of-the-road use it.
One thing which does irritate me is the incorrect use of 'Reverend'. This really started after the ordination of women to the priesthood when people usually from a non-church background didn't know how to address them. (Despite what some others have said, I've never encountered 'mother') Thus interviewers will address someone as 'Reverend Angela', 'Reverend Smith', or perhaps worst of all, just plain 'Reverend'. These of course are quite wrong - the title should only be used when referring to someone as 'The Reverend Angela (or A.) Smith'.
*snip*
First prize however must go to Mrs Proudie, wife of the Bishop of Barchester, who really wore the trousers (or gaiters) in the Bishop's palace, yet very deferentially always addressed her husband as 'My Lord'.
Minstermusic is quite fortunate; North Americans have been longtime grievously oppressed by the use of Reverend as a stand-alone noun or vocative. By now it has acquired a backwoods dialectic legitimacy, I imagine, but it always grates. Here at Circumlocution Canada, I take much cheer in correcting it in correspondence dockets.
Mrs Proudie is to be emulated! My favourite clerical title was that which an NDP activist gave to the Venerable Ken Bolton, when he was elected MLA for Middlesex Centre in 1969(?), who referred to him as Comrade Archdeacon.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
Martin L: That's Mr. ken to you ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
The Anglican Church of Canada seems not to be keen on the use of "Father" as formal address for clergy.
I can't find the resource offhand, but ISTM that the title of "Vicar" is also Very Much Not Used in the Anglican Church of Canada, where "Rector" or "Incumbent" is preferred. (Most confusing to those of us who grew up with the show Vicar of Dibley and assume C of E usage applies.)
[ 13. June 2011, 01:16: Message edited by: Leaf ]
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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