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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Liberals and conservatives think differently
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
And of course it's vital to recognise that economics is not a zero sum game; the poor have got richer despite the rich getting richer, as the World Bank figures CLEARLY demonstrate for the past 30 years.

For sure economics are not zero sum, but I'm not sure why it is vital to recognise that.
For one thing, it proves that all those who think the only valid way of making the poor richer is to make the rich poorer are wrong.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
For sure economics are not zero sum, but I'm not sure why it is vital to recognise that.

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
For one thing, it proves that all those who think the only valid way of making the poor richer is to make the rich poorer are wrong.

Most nations include some element of sliding-scale taxation according to wealth, which in essence is a way of making the poor richer at the expense of the rich.

So it seems by consensus to be *a* valid way of doing it. But I'm not sure what sort of position would hold it to be the "*only* valid way".

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
romanlion
editorial comment
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The US has been doing it for decades, and we as many "poor" now as we ever have.

Progressive taxes have nothing to do with making the poor richer.

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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tclune
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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
The US has been doing it for decades, and we as many "poor" now as we ever have.

Progressive taxes have nothing to do with making the poor richer.

As has been demonstrated ad nauseum, the US tax system is regressive, not progressive. The reason to make the taxes sharply progressive is not to enrich the poor, but to help modulate the greed of the rich. Failure to do that will simply result in the society rotting from the top -- a phenomenon that we are seeing played out among us.

I am quite amazed by how few voices are being raised against this. Mr. Buffett has received a great amount of credit for doing something that you would expect would be universally demanded by the rich and pilloried by the rest of society as being totally inadequate. But then, no one ever went broke by betting on the stupidity of the American public.

--Tom Clune

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This space left blank intentionally.

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
The US has been doing it for decades, and we as many "poor" now as we ever have.

Progressive taxes have nothing to do with making the poor richer.

It seems to me that if you are poor and you pay 10% tax instead of 20% tax you are better off than you might have been. And if you are rich and pay 30% tax instead of 20% you are less well off.

Whether that affects the overall number of people classified as poor doesn't seem to change that. But I'm probably being simplistic about this.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
The US has been doing it for decades, and we as many "poor" now as we ever have.

Progressive taxes have nothing to do with making the poor richer.

True, it makes defence contractors, and their shareholders richer.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Progressive taxes have nothing to do with making the poor richer.

They do have a lot to do with welfare though, and that has a lot to do with keeping the poorest and most vulnerable alive and healthy.

What they don't do is make the rich poorer because the real rich don't pay income taxes much - the main burden of those falls on the better-off middle class. If you really wanted to make the rich poorer you would cut income tax and increase property taxes.

quote:
The US has been doing it for decades, and we as many "poor" now as we ever have..
Also it depends what you mean by "poor". Not very much of your tax money goes to the very poorest, nor does it anywhere. If you compare the rich developed countries with each other, the places with high taxation and high welfare spending don't always do much better than the US or UK at looking after the poorest. That kind of system is often best for those in low-paying steady jobs who are just getting by. Those who might have been called the "respectable poor" 120 years ago.

Pretty much everywhere looks after the very poorest in a sort of way, wether through welfare or charity. Pretty much nowhere looks after them very well or gives them very much or treats them like free equal human beings. The difference between, say the Nordic model of welfare and the US model isn't how they deal with homeless drug addicts, teenage mothers, or immigrants working in burger bars for a minumum wage. Its the chances they give to those who are a little better off than that.

Its probably most biased in France. They tax and spend more than we Brits do, but their problems with slums and crime and drugs and riots and unemployment and all the rest of that crap are worse than ours. Their school system is about the same as ours in outcome, their healthcare is better (but they spend twice as much on it - still not as much as you Americans spend for less though) But France is probably one of the most comfortable places in the world to be a white man married with three kids living in a small town or suburb and doing an ordinary blue-collar job. Heaps of things that Americans, Brits, even Germans would pay for out of their own pockets are available for them. generous child allowances, mortgage subsidies (and even more importantly much cheaper housing outside the Paris area), complex but generous health insurance, decent schools (and none of this British agonising about which one to go to), a 35-hour week, OK, you get paid less than you would in Britain or Germany, and taxed more out of it, and your wife is unlikely to be able to get more than a part-time job (nor will your kids when they grow up unless they do very well at university), but as long as you keep your job (and you are very hard to sack and have good unemployment benefits while looking for a new job) you can probably live more comfortably than your opposite number in other comparable countries.

Its not the poorest who are the big losers in the US way of doing things. Its ordinary workers and small business owners. Construction workers, shopkeepers, plumbers, truck drivers, farmers. All those who don't make enough to buy their own healthcare or their kids college education, and don't have a Big Brother employer (whether private corporations or public service) to buy it for them.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Soror Magna
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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
The US has been doing it for decades, and we as many "poor" now as we ever have. ...

In the good old days, the top tax rate was 90% and one could buy a house and a car and support a family on one blue-collar job. What the USA has been doing for decades is steadily lowering that top rate and shrinking real wages. OliviaG

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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Bullfrog.

Prophetic Amphibian
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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
The US has been doing it for decades, and we as many "poor" now as we ever have.

Progressive taxes have nothing to do with making the poor richer.

But we don't have to send our kids to work overtime in textile mills anymore. That's something.

ETA: A nuance.

[ 30. April 2012, 15:49: Message edited by: Bullfrog. ]

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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg

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Ender's Shadow
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This article indicates how much poverty reduction programmes expanded in the US:
quote:
From 1980 to 2011, annual spending on these programs grew from $126 billion to $626 billion (all figures in inflation-adjusted “2011 dollars”); dividing this by the number of people below the government poverty line, spending went from $4,300 per poor person in 1980 to $13,000 in 2011. In 1962, spending per person in poverty was $516.
That's the data; draw your own conclusions...

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Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.

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Bullfrog.

Prophetic Amphibian
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quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
This article indicates how much poverty reduction programmes expanded in the US:
quote:
From 1980 to 2011, annual spending on these programs grew from $126 billion to $626 billion (all figures in inflation-adjusted “2011 dollars”); dividing this by the number of people below the government poverty line, spending went from $4,300 per poor person in 1980 to $13,000 in 2011. In 1962, spending per person in poverty was $516.
That's the data; draw your own conclusions...
Of course someone who advocates the opinions of such a
well established think tank would deny that Washington is dominated by special interests...how could they but say otherwise?

--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg

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romanlion
editorial comment
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quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
But we don't have to send our kids to work overtime in textile mills anymore.

Kids don't work at all anymore, ISTM.

I took my first job at 14. After school 3 days a week till dark. All day Saturday and Sunday.

None of the 14 year olds I know work, and I know a few.

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Bullfrog.

Prophetic Amphibian
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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
But we don't have to send our kids to work overtime in textile mills anymore.

Kids don't work at all anymore, ISTM.

I took my first job at 14. After school 3 days a week till dark. All day Saturday and Sunday.

None of the 14 year olds I know work, and I know a few.

Frankly, if I had to hold down a crappy job in HS, my studies would've suffered, and at this point in time the studies have proven more fruitful.

--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg

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romanlion
editorial comment
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quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
But we don't have to send our kids to work overtime in textile mills anymore.

Kids don't work at all anymore, ISTM.

I took my first job at 14. After school 3 days a week till dark. All day Saturday and Sunday.

None of the 14 year olds I know work, and I know a few.

Frankly, if I had to hold down a crappy job in HS, my studies would've suffered, and at this point in time the studies have proven more fruitful.
I am sorry you had to study for what passes as education in this country. I didn't.

And I didn't have to work, I wanted to, and would gladly have fought you for the job had it come to that.

What I've learned working has long ago eclipsed anything I picked up in government schools in terms of overall value.

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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Bullfrog.

Prophetic Amphibian
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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
But we don't have to send our kids to work overtime in textile mills anymore.

Kids don't work at all anymore, ISTM.

I took my first job at 14. After school 3 days a week till dark. All day Saturday and Sunday.

None of the 14 year olds I know work, and I know a few.

Frankly, if I had to hold down a crappy job in HS, my studies would've suffered, and at this point in time the studies have proven more fruitful.
I am sorry you had to study for what passes as education in this country. I didn't.

And I didn't have to work, I wanted to, and would gladly have fought you for the job had it come to that.

What I've learned working has long ago eclipsed anything I picked up in government schools in terms of overall value.

We clearly have different experiences. Sometimes I wish the system did more for people who go that way, but I wouldn't say that working, for me, would be a suitable replacement for education. And I'm very glad that the opportunity for education is there.

And what I studied for was apparently good enough to skip me out of a college level class at a fairly respected private school. Apparently public school education is good for something.

Back in college, I openly fretted to a co-worker about how I'd never had a chance to learn lifeskills stuff because I'd been in education for so long. He said (and I think he was right) that the education is more valuable, because eventually you pick up the other stuff by nature.

I think he was right. I'm at a job now that's tough and teaching me things I'd never learned in school. That happens. If I'd had to work at a place like this instead of getting an education, I'd have never, EVER been able to get any of the other stuff.

[ 30. April 2012, 17:26: Message edited by: Bullfrog. ]

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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg

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Mere Nick
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My oldest is holding down two jobs and working on a masters degree. It doesn't have to be an either/or situation unless you want it to.

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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ianjmatt
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I think this quote from Thatcher is interesting. Bearing in mind she was more a Liberal (in the classic J S Mill sense) than she was Conservative (in the traditional Tory mould) I think this explains her thinking well - not that people would necessary agree with it:

quote:
Some socialists seem to believe that people should be numbers in a state computer. We believe they should be individuals. We are all unequal. No one, thank heavens, is like anyone else, however much the socialists may pretend otherwise. We believe that everyone has the right to be unequal, but to us, every human being is equally important. A man's right to work as he will, to spend what he earns, to own property, to have the state as servant, and not as master - these are the British inheritance. They are the essence of a free economy. And on that freedom, all our other freedoms depend.


[ 30. April 2012, 19:07: Message edited by: ianjmatt ]

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You might want to visit my blog:
http://lostintheheartofsomewhere.blogspot.com

But maybe not

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
That's the data; draw your own conclusions...

I'm not sure it is *the* data, it's some data and probably spun at that.

But even if it wasn't I'm not sure that the conclusion is that it's a worthless activity. Or on a fundamentally mistaken footing. Or that if only the morons doing it would listen to x it would be better.

It reminds me of an onlooker watching someone trying to draw a drowning man out of the water, and advising that the effort is misguided on the basis that the drowning man is still taking in quite a lot of water despite all the effort expended trying to get them out.

All poverty alleviation programmes around the world in every shape and form fail. Because the poor are with us always. That doesn't mean we should stop trying.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Bullfrog.

Prophetic Amphibian
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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
My oldest is holding down two jobs and working on a masters degree. It doesn't have to be an either/or situation unless you want it to.

True, though I wouldn't expect that to be the norm. Or at least it shouldn't have to be.

--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg

Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
Bullfrog.

Prophetic Amphibian
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quote:
Originally posted by ianjmatt:
I think this quote from Thatcher is interesting. Bearing in mind she was more a Liberal (in the classic J S Mill sense) than she was Conservative (in the traditional Tory mould) I think this explains her thinking well - not that people would necessary agree with it:

quote:
Some socialists seem to believe that people should be numbers in a state computer. We believe they should be individuals. We are all unequal. No one, thank heavens, is like anyone else, however much the socialists may pretend otherwise. We believe that everyone has the right to be unequal, but to us, every human being is equally important. A man's right to work as he will, to spend what he earns, to own property, to have the state as servant, and not as master - these are the British inheritance. They are the essence of a free economy. And on that freedom, all our other freedoms depend.

I like it, but one issue is that there are worse masters than the state, and sometimes the state's responsibility is to protect people from these masters. Very, very few fortunate people can really say that they have no master.

--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
My oldest is holding down two jobs and working on a masters degree. It doesn't have to be an either/or situation unless you want it to.

Has it occurred to you that maybe not everyone is capable of that, nor should they be required to be?

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
My oldest is holding down two jobs and working on a masters degree. It doesn't have to be an either/or situation unless you want it to.

Has it occurred to you that maybe not everyone is capable of that, nor should they be required to be?
This arguably ties in quite nicely with the thread on depression. One of the best articles I've ever seen on depression talked about people being different strength fuses, and observed that if you try to put, say, 15 amps through a 10 amp fuse, it will blow. Every time.

15 amp fuses exhorting 10 amp fuses to suck it up and take those extra amps is a useless exercise.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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mdijon
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# 8520

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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
My oldest is holding down two jobs and working on a masters degree. It doesn't have to be an either/or situation unless you want it to.

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Has it occurred to you that maybe not everyone is capable of that, nor should they be required to be?

Or that the oldest in question might have made better and more rapid academic progress without the need to hold down two jobs.

And however gifted one is, a PhD is going to be a lengthy exercise if one is also working full time, and the time lost will limit career options on completion.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
one issue is that there are worse masters than the state

I'm not so sure. Corporations screw people over, but they're only doing it for the money and if you haven't got anything they want they'll lose interest in you. The State, on the other hand, will screw people over for idealogical reasons and it will never stop chasing you. Ever.

The State has police (and an army) with which to force universal compliance to its will. Corporations have advertising with which to beg us to buy what they're selling. The State can lock us up for decades if we don't want to give it any money. Corporations can't even force us to enter their stores if we don't want to give them money. Corporations have to set their prices to a level at which people will still be able to buy from them, or else they'll go bust through lack of sales. The State can set the tax rate to whatever the fuck it wishes, and we just have to suck it up and pay whether or not we can afford to do so.

[ 01. May 2012, 09:31: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]

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Hail Gallaxhar

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mdijon
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The only reason there are those limitations on the power of big business is because of the state.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
The only reason there are those limitations on the power of big business is because of the state.

Yes - the State acting as a servant of the people. But we need to be incredibly wary lest it ever becomes a far worse master than any corporation could ever dream of being. All this talk of "if you've got to have a master the State is a good one" is bunk, because the State would be a real evil bastard of a master, and one from which we would never be able to escape.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
one issue is that there are worse masters than the state

I'm not so sure. Corporations screw people over, but they're only doing it for the money and if you haven't got anything they want they'll lose interest in you. The State, on the other hand, will screw people over for idealogical reasons and it will never stop chasing you. Ever.

The State has police (and an army) with which to force universal compliance to its will. Corporations have advertising with which to beg us to buy what they're selling. The State can lock us up for decades if we don't want to give it any money. Corporations can't even force us to enter their stores if we don't want to give them money. Corporations have to set their prices to a level at which people will still be able to buy from them, or else they'll go bust through lack of sales. The State can set the tax rate to whatever the fuck it wishes, and we just have to suck it up and pay whether or not we can afford to do so.

Ah, corporations. The bigger of them have serious power, way beyond influence: why else would we have the Leveson enquiry? Surely Thatcher's idea of individual liberty and freedom didn't encompass that of a corporation both insulating a dominant individual from responsibility while giving them awesome political and economic power!

Astonishingly the state takes a more favourable attitude to corporations than it does to individuals; how that lines up with Mill or any of the other proponents of individual freedom, liberty or the rights of man is a mystery to me.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

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Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
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# 8520

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
All this talk of "if you've got to have a master the State is a good one" is bunk, because the State would be a real evil bastard of a master, and one from which we would never be able to escape.

Indeed, the state unfettered by democracy is pretty bad. As bad as big business unfettered by the state. But when people talk of needing either the state or business as the master, I think what they mean is the balance of power between state and business in a representative democracy.

Fortunately we have an option of the state fettered by democracy *and* business fettered by the state.

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Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
The only reason there are those limitations on the power of big business is because of the state.

Yes - the State acting as a servant of the people. But we need to be incredibly wary lest it ever becomes a far worse master than any corporation could ever dream of being. All this talk of "if you've got to have a master the State is a good one" is bunk, because the State would be a real evil bastard of a master, and one from which we would never be able to escape.
I notice that your monolithic "The State" makes no distinction between the 3 different arms of government.

Which is rather the point, isn't it. You can't actually have a big, bad bogeyman State in countries where the idea that each of the 3 arms helps check the power of the other 2 is operating as it was intended to do.

Not that it's perfect, mind you. The High Court here got itself in quite a difficult exercise a few years back, grappling with the difference between mandatory detention (for people who arrive here without visas), and jail. Because only the judiciary can send you to jail, but the executive can keep you in detention when the legislature has demanded it...

...on the flipside, there's all the other bits of the executive getting in the way, like the Ombudsman. I've actually seen quite interesting arguments that offices like the Ombudsman potentially constitute a FOURTH arm of government.

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Ah, corporations. The bigger of them have serious power, way beyond influence: why else would we have the Leveson enquiry?

Ah yes, the phone hacking scandal. Where an evil megacorporation used the unchecked ability to spy on people to further their nefarious aim of selling newspapers.

If the State had the unchecked ability to use phone hacking in such an indiscriminate manner, they'd use it to lock people the fuck up. Not to put juicy stories on newsstands in the hope that they might just persuade us to buy their paper. Sure, phone hacking is a bad thing - but which of those end results do you really fear the most?

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Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
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# 8520

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I fail to see where this logic is leading.

It seems to me that the state needs democracy to hold it in check, and big business needs legislation from the state to hold it in check.

The state would get worse in the absence of democracy, and big business would be worse in the absence of a legislature.

What's the choice that we need to make?

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Angloid
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# 159

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Corporations can't even force us to enter their stores if we don't want to give them money.

True. But we'd starve (in most urban societies anyway) if we didn't use supermarkets. And since they are increasingly monopolistic (nearly every food store that's bigger than a basic corner shop within 3 miles of here is owned by Tesco) that's getting quite near to 'forcing'.

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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bullfrog.

Prophetic Amphibian
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Corporations are not only producers of goods, but also employers of people. I was thinking more of employee-employer power than producer-consumer power when I made that post. Though as has been said, producers in a monopolistic environment do carry a good deal of weight.

And what's been said about business is especially true in smaller municipalities where there isn't enough business to foster real competition.

I'm not saying the State is always wonderful, but I think that Thatcher's idea that a weak state means everyone is freer doesn't make sense. Some people, I think, benefit from a stronger state and would prefer it even at the cost of some freedom.

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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Ah, corporations. The bigger of them have serious power, way beyond influence: why else would we have the Leveson enquiry?

Ah yes, the phone hacking scandal. Where an evil megacorporation used the unchecked ability to spy on people to further their nefarious aim of selling newspapers.

If the State had the unchecked ability to use phone hacking in such an indiscriminate manner, they'd use it to lock people the fuck up. Not to put juicy stories on newsstands in the hope that they might just persuade us to buy their paper. Sure, phone hacking is a bad thing - but which of those end results do you really fear the most?

Hmm. JUST to sell newspapers?

Also to ruin lives/careers while doing it. Possibly in some cases to simply not care whether or not lives/careers are ruined, but in some instances there's an air of agenda as to who the newspaper has decided to 'get'.

Owning a newspaper, or media, is not simply about the numbers, it's also about what you're going to tell those numbers when you have their loyalty and attention. Many media outlets have a clear political agenda.

[ 01. May 2012, 22:36: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Niteowl

Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Ah, corporations. The bigger of them have serious power, way beyond influence: why else would we have the Leveson enquiry?

Ah yes, the phone hacking scandal. Where an evil megacorporation used the unchecked ability to spy on people to further their nefarious aim of selling newspapers.

If the State had the unchecked ability to use phone hacking in such an indiscriminate manner, they'd use it to lock people the fuck up. Not to put juicy stories on newsstands in the hope that they might just persuade us to buy their paper. Sure, phone hacking is a bad thing - but which of those end results do you really fear the most?

Hmm. JUST to sell newspapers?

Also to ruin lives/careers while doing it. Possibly in some cases to simply not care whether or not lives/careers are ruined, but in some instances there's an air of agenda as to who the newspaper has decided to 'get'.

Owning a newspaper, or media, is not simply about the numbers, it's also about what you're going to tell those numbers when you have their loyalty and attention. Many media outlets have a clear political agenda.

Martin also leaves out the obscenity of violating the parents of a murdered child, "just to sell newspapers". He minimizes the act that was obscene for the violation of those whose phones were hacked.

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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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If the end is banal, does that excuse any crime, however heinous? I guess as long as the criminal is a conservative, it's okay. Yes, apparently liberals and conservatives DO think differently, Virginia.

[ 02. May 2012, 01:43: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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Yeah, see, I think banality makes it worse. If a criminal is doing something visionary, I can at least give them some kind of grudging admiration.

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QLib

Bad Example
# 43

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
If the State had the unchecked ability to use phone hacking in such an indiscriminate manner, they'd use it to lock people the fuck up. Not to put juicy stories on newsstands in the hope that they might just persuade us to buy their paper. Sure, phone hacking is a bad thing - but which of those end results do you really fear the most?

Well, if people are locked up after an appropriate legal process, then the answer is to fear the newspaper use more - because it is an abuse of power and because they are not just doing it to sell newspapers. Even when they aren't smearing politicians, they are directly or indirectly fuelling the political agendas of their proprietors.

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
What's the choice that we need to make?

It's in response to Bullfrog's post which essentially states "you've got to have a master, so the State is the best one to choose". To which I'm responding "bollocks, I fear being a vassal of the State far more than I fear being a vassal of corporations".

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Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Many media outlets have a clear political agenda.

And the State doesn't?

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
He minimizes the act that was obscene for the violation of those whose phones were hacked.

I clearly said that it was bad. It's just that, given that those in power are going to do bad - even obscene - things whoever they are, which end result would you prefer them to be aiming for?

Corporations just want to make as much money as they can. The State wants to control every aspect of our lives. Both need to be reined in if possible, but if we can only stop one then I know which one I'd choose.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Ender's Shadow
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# 2272

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Yeah, see, I think banality makes it worse. If a criminal is doing something visionary, I can at least give them some kind of grudging admiration.

This story provides a possible example of a justified crime in this area. We seem to have two cases: one where a conviction occurred as a result, the other where an innocent person had their privacy invaded to no effect. The first case seems to be justified by the result - by such a post facto justification is... problematic. The second appears to be justified by the witch hunting which the media indulges in with respect to convicted paedophiles; a 6 figure payout to the victim - perhaps payable to the paedophile's victim rather than the rehabilitated criminal - would appear to be appropriate. Let the media gamble - and if they lose, pay out big.

Of course at the heart of this issue is the reality that there is no 'due process' clause in British jurisprudence: illegally obtained evidence can often be presented in criminal cases. The result is some guilty people get convicted - but an ethos of private investigations is enabled which the American system rejects.

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Test everything. Hold on to the good.

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Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Niteowl

Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
He minimizes the act that was obscene for the violation of those whose phones were hacked.

I clearly said that it was bad. It's just that, given that those in power are going to do bad - even obscene - things whoever they are, which end result would you prefer them to be aiming for?

Corporations just want to make as much money as they can. The State wants to control every aspect of our lives. Both need to be reined in if possible, but if we can only stop one then I know which one I'd choose.

Either state or corporation doing it is obscene, but the fact that one does it just for money strikes me as worse. The well being of their customers goes cheap these days.

Here in the U.S. corporations have too much power as our Supreme Court ruled they have as much rights as individuals. We used to be a country by the people and for the people, now we are a country for the Corporation with corporate money buying Congress and the Presidency. And far too many of them employ more people out of the country than in it. We need to have jobs to buy their cheap crap is what they fail to realize. We used to have good products that were a source of pride and worth the money. I personally will spend a little more to get a well made American product rather than Chinese crap that breaks at first opportunity. I find I end up spending less in the long run when I can find them.

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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Corporations just want to make as much money as they can. The State wants to control every aspect of our lives. Both need to be reined in if possible, but if we can only stop one then I know which one I'd choose.

Either state or corporation doing it is obscene, but the fact that one does it just for money strikes me as worse.
Really?

the difference as I see it is the corporation, which is only after your cash, will leave you alone once it becomes damn clear that you're not going to (or can't) give them any. Whereas the State, which is after control, will never leave you alone. No corporation is going to persecute people if it ends up losing them money, but the State will spend millions just to keep us under its thumb, even if it never sees a penny of that money again.

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Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Angloid
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# 159

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A non-elected totalitarian state no doubt would. But we're not talking about that. Surely regular elections provide the necessary checks and balances?

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Lone voice: I'm not!

Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
A non-elected totalitarian state no doubt would. But we're not talking about that. Surely regular elections provide the necessary checks and balances?

Up to a point. Elected representatives look at things in that optimistic way but I've spent enough time on the inside to know that some senior unelected officials (in certain departments of state more than in others) crave that form of power that comes through control of citizen's lives. Do you really think the ID card scheme was dreamt up by ministers?

So I'm with Marvin, for once.

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(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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mdijon
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# 8520

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It's in response to Bullfrog's post which essentially states "you've got to have a master, so the State is the best one to choose". To which I'm responding "bollocks, I fear being a vassal of the State far more than I fear being a vassal of corporations".

Well as covered above I don't think he meant it in quite as stark terms as that. In either case seems better to me to argue how state should be regulated and how business should be regulated on their own merits, rather than set up a false dichotomy over it.

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Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Many media outlets have a clear political agenda.

And the State doesn't?
The State ADMITS it.

Wait. There you go again with your monolith.

The Executive does, and admits it.

The Legislature is designed precisely for the purpose of arguing about politics.

The judiciary? In my experience, in sane countries where judges don't run for office, doesn't.

[ 02. May 2012, 12:27: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Yeah, see, I think banality makes it worse. If a criminal is doing something visionary, I can at least give them some kind of grudging admiration.

This story provides a possible example of a justified crime in this area. We seem to have two cases: one where a conviction occurred as a result, the other where an innocent person had their privacy invaded to no effect. The first case seems to be justified by the result - by such a post facto justification is... problematic. The second appears to be justified by the witch hunting which the media indulges in with respect to convicted paedophiles; a 6 figure payout to the victim - perhaps payable to the paedophile's victim rather than the rehabilitated criminal - would appear to be appropriate. Let the media gamble - and if they lose, pay out big.

Of course at the heart of this issue is the reality that there is no 'due process' clause in British jurisprudence: illegally obtained evidence can often be presented in criminal cases. The result is some guilty people get convicted - but an ethos of private investigations is enabled which the American system rejects.

Ah, the public interest. One of my favourite phrases. Because it's almost never used by the media in the way it's supposed to be used, as a matter of law.

Since when is it a reporter's job to put holes in a defence case? Funny, I could have sworn there WERE people whose job it is. They're called the prosecution. They get given specific powers to, oh, I don't know, do things like intercept phone calls and e-mails - WITH LEGAL CONTROLS AS TO HOW AND WHEN.

Bugger that, thinks the reporter, I can cut through all that unnecessary red tape of legal authorisation and get the truth 'in the public interest'.

[Roll Eyes]

As someone who writes laws for a living, I've got no sympathy at all. I spend half my bloody working life asking questions about "who can do this, what circumstances, what conditions or restrictions", and a reporter jumps up, cries out "who the f*** cares" and does what he likes? Not on my watch.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
A non-elected totalitarian state no doubt would. But we're not talking about that. Surely regular elections provide the necessary checks and balances?

Up to a point. Elected representatives look at things in that optimistic way but I've spent enough time on the inside to know that some senior unelected officials (in certain departments of state more than in others) crave that form of power that comes through control of citizen's lives. Do you really think the ID card scheme was dreamt up by ministers?

So I'm with Marvin, for once.

But this is precisely why the executive is accountable to the legislature.

Again speaking from my own experience, nothing quite scares an unelected official with wobbly ideas about what they can do through delegated legislation than "the Senate Scrutiny Committee won't like it". Because, in our system, if the Senate Scrutiny Committee doesn't like it, they'll write to the Minister, and the Minister will then ask the unelected official 'what the hell was that thing you got me to sign?'. And yea, verily, unelected officials do NOT like being faced with that question without a good answer.

The prospect of telling a Minister 'the drafting office told us it was a bad idea and that the Senate would ask questions' is frankly THE single most effective device I and my colleagues have for heading off the excesses of the executive in our little corner of the rule of law.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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