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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Vatican cracks down on liberal nuns
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
And Roman Catholics should care what you think why?
What others say can be very enlightening for the RCC and RC's.
opaWim, I think Beeswax was responding in kind to the first line of this post.
Over the top criticism indeed, and painful, and embarrassing.
But all the same not completely untrue.
We were told that the truth shall make us free.
That belief is not invalidated when the truth turns out to be embarrassing and/or painful.
To which, Roman Catholics, in the Spirit of kiwimacahau, could simply respond...
In your opinion only
What's good for the goose.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
That's the path to authentic faith as opposed to somebody else's truth handed down.
ego enim accepi a Domino quod et tradidi vobis
For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, (1 Cor 11: 23)
Yes - my mention of 'handed down' invited that comment. But both Judaism and Christianity see tradition as dynamic and evolving, which is why Chalcedon could use the term 'homoousios', borrowed from Greek philosophy, to describe something not explicit in the bible.
The Disciples of Christ/RC Commission agreed quote:
Through the Spirit....the power of what is remembered is made present afresh, and succeeding generations appropriate the event remembered....From the earliest times also the prophetic role has been linked to the apostolic, since the Spirit reminds us what may have been forgotten
The ARCIC Final Report quote:
Tradition has been viewed in different ways. One approach is primarily concerned never to go beyond the bounds of scripture. Under the guidance of the Spirit undiscovered values and truths are sought in the Scriptures to illuminate the faith according to the needs of each generation. This is not slavery to the text of Scripture. It is an unfolding of the riches of the original revelation. Another approach, while different, does not necessarily contradict the former. In the conviction that the Holy Spirit is seeking to guide the Church into the fullness of truth, it draws upon everything in human experience and thought which will give to the content of revelation its fullest expression and widest application. It is primarily concerned with the growth of the seed of God's word from age to age
I see tradition as a passing on of skills and resources, tools for induction into a way of belonging.
The test for orthodoxy is if can still nourish life.
Things may often seem to be innovations to those who do not fully know the tradition.
R. Gregor Smith said
quote:
The tradition..and in particular the doctrinal tradition, is truly itself only when it throws itself away. That is, it is not the last word, just as it is not the first word. It is only within the dynamism of history as the place and the time of irreversible personal decisions that the Word is truly heard, and faith truly active
The "unsearchable riches of Christ" (Ephesians 3:8)are bigger than our current understanding of them.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
The church covering up for and tolerating priests raping children- the Vatican won't condemn this but they'll come down like a ton of bricks on women whose experiences in bringing Christ's love to those who most need it, lead them to question the hardline doctrines dreamed up by men in ivory towers.
I do not care about the hungry wolves howling outside the village walls...
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Once they choose to challenge these, in conscience, what's to stop them challenging everything else? That's the path to authentic faith as opposed to somebody else's truth handed down.
... and the mad yapping of the mutt next door is a mere nuisance ...
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
I spend a lot of time helping young people who are trying to discern a vocation. I tend to try and discourage quite a few because I think they are dreaming of a kind of picture post-card type of religious life.
... but when the family dog bites the children, then I get worried.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
the word 'obedience' needs teasing out. At root, it is about listening and discerning. Is this listening to an external authority only or is it to one's own experience and conscience, weighing up scripture, tradition, reason etc.?
It is not the same as the childish 'do what you're told' sort of obedience.
Actually, I think in the context of religious vows it's about submitting to the guidance of your superiors and the authority of the Church. With respect, your definition sounds like a modern spin which subverts the intention of the vow, rather than fulfilling it.
I first heard this view of 'obedience' from a Benedictine abbot.
According to another Benedictine, quote:
Monastic obedience begins with a personal relationship, not an organizational structure. Monastic obedience is a relationship between the monastic and the monastic leader, and then extends to the relationship with all of the monastic community in mutual obedience. The object of monastic obedience is the seeking of God. The monastic leader is a "director of souls," not a work boss nor a manager
here:
Joan Chittister recently quoted here - and it's found elsewhere in other writingas so I don't know where it originated quote:
The Vatican notion of authority exerts power and control out of a false sense of unity inspired by fear. Benedictine obedience and authority, on the other hand, are achieved through dialogue between a community member and her prioress in a spirit of co-responsibility. Obedience has a higher meaning than merely following orders from a legitimate superior
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fuzzipeg:
There is a Support the Sisters petition on line. Chris Chatteris SJ Spiritual Director at St Francis Xavier Seminary in Cape Town signed it and posted it on Facebook. I noticed that one person forcibly declined and another signed happily.
TT, that'll teach you! I do have a problem with the sisters issue because everything out of Rome is a generalisation, not explained and not at all specific with the exception, possibly, of the choice of speakers but I fail to see that as an issue. Guest speakers are guest speakers and you don't have to agree with what they say. If everyone did there wouldn't be much point in inviting them! Does this mean that if I invite an Imam to address a Catholic group I am being disloyal to the Church?
I'm sure, TT, that you have reservations about the statement because it is so vague.
I will give you the hermeneutical key to understand the document: ecclesiology.
A few years ago I had to act in a similar way with a group who were part of the area for which I have pastoral responsibility. They believed their appointed chaplain was far too "liberal" and so set about undermining her. They drew up their own activities, with their own set of "approved" speakers, own versions of acceptable liturgy and so on. They drafted a new constitution for themselves which included a kind of doctrinal test for anyone coming to speak to them (to make sure they were "Orthodox") and a vetting system for priests who could be invited to celebrate Mass. That way they could entirely by-pass the Chaplain. They were setting themselves up as the "real" Catholics as opposed to the "liberal" imposed upon them.
How should I respond? There was no way I could accept such a parrallel Church. I tried to encourage them away from their chosen path and to engage in dialogue with their Chaplain. I had long meetings with the Chaplain to try and get her to at least hear their concerns. I tried to arbitrate and invited them to a meeting with both me and the Chaplain. I pointed out that they had no authority from anyone to conduct what would in effect be their own auto da fe. It was the bishop and not themselves who could decide who was and was not an acceptable priest. They refused to meet me, unless they could have one of their chosen priests also present. It went on like that at some length. In the end I made a ruling that unless they engaged with the properly authorised and appointed Chaplain (appointed by the Archbishop) they would no longer be allowed to operate in their setting and that I would make it known that they did not have the approval of the Catholic Church. They would not be allowed to use the name Catholic. Anyone who participated in their activities would need to know that. The result? They screamed about being oppressed, began an internet campaign against me and moved their activities to a Starbuck's Cafe where they could be themselves without my oppressive interference.
It seems to me the LCRW has done the same thing: set up a parallel Church. The CDF document seems to me to be very mild indeed as these things go. And at its heart it seems to me to be asking for that parallelism to be corrected.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
There is often an identifiable point at which a thread gets silly.....this is that point
Really? I thought it was about a page before. I stayed out while it was going somewhere.
And for the record the proportion of Roman Catholic Nuns in the US affiliated with the group the Vatican is trying to crack down in is IIRC somewhere in the region of 80%.
[ 23. April 2012, 15:54: Message edited by: Justinian ]
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
There was a nun of Radio 4's 'Sunday' programme yesterday who said that the hierarchy is not used to dealing with highly educated women. Pius 12 urged women's education. Vatican 2 urged engagement with the world. But the hierarchy doesn't understand those who obey these things.
On the specific issue of healthcare, she said that 2 US federal courts had established that abortion was not part of it.
The nuns invited the Vatican to dialogue with them in 2010.
It would, thus, seem that the Vatican prefers its own monologue.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
the word 'obedience' needs teasing out. At root, it is about listening and discerning. Is this listening to an external authority only or is it to one's own experience and conscience, weighing up scripture, tradition, reason etc.?
It is not the same as the childish 'do what you're told' sort of obedience.
Actually, I think in the context of religious vows it's about submitting to the guidance of your superiors and the authority of the Church. With respect, your definition sounds like a modern spin which subverts the intention of the vow, rather than fulfilling it.
I first heard this view of 'obedience' from a Benedictine abbot.
And how is that view of obedience working for his house? How many vocations a year are they receiving, compared to--say--100 years ago?
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
And how is that view of obedience working for his house? How many vocations a year are they receiving, compared to--say--100 years ago?
It makes a nice quip, but given that Catholic families are no longer raising one child for the church--with the expectations made clear from a very young age--and given that those with overly romanticized views of the call are now being discouraged, it's not exactly fair, is it?
I'm also not quite sure what IngoB meant above. Is he suggesting that discouraging anyone from the priesthood or religious life is somehow undermining the Catholic Church? Having met a few people who thought they would make good priests, I think the best thing any church can do is make certain that a call is based on something more solid than watching "The Bells of St. Mary's" and reading "In This House of Brede"!
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
No kidding! In This House of Brede made the teen-aged me want to be a nun! The fact that we were Baptists was a bit of a problem, especially since I thought you had to be born Catholic - I didn't know they took converts. But I still wanted to be a nun.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
The Vatican treats highly educated women who disent from the official teaching the same way it treats highly educated men who dissent from the official teaching. The RCC had done this for centuries prior to the nuns ever taking a vow of obedience. I can't for the life of me understand why anybody is really shocked. I understand why people disagree with the Vatican. Surprise? I don't get it. This is the Vatican doing what the Vatican has done for centuries. Sort of reminds me of this classic Chris Rock bit.
Crazy Tiger
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
I'm also not quite sure what IngoB meant above. Is he suggesting that discouraging anyone from the priesthood or religious life is somehow undermining the Catholic Church? Having met a few people who thought they would make good priests, I think the best thing any church can do is make certain that a call is based on something more solid than watching "The Bells of St. Mary's" and reading "In This House of Brede"!
Without the rocket fuel of unreasonable enthusiasm, no higher calling ever gets off the ground, whether medical, scientific or religious. Yes, some will burn out prematurely and drop back to the ground, and some will even explode mid air. But if you want to reach the stars, then risk is involved. Some will get hurt. Thats strictly "shit happens". It is reasonable to assess whether the abilities of a candidate are up to the job. In particular for something like the priesthood, where ample opportunity exists to hurt others than oneself. But if a young person enters any training for a vocation without being high on romantic idealism, then they should be kicked out on those grounds. The last thing we need is the old hands requiring their "realism" of newbies. That's just forgetting that they weren't always the cynic fat bastards that they have become.
There is good reason why young people are enthusiastic, middle aged people are realistic and old people are wise. Those in the business of catching dreams need the best humanity can offer, and it is all of the above.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
There was a nun of Radio 4's 'Sunday' programme yesterday who said that the hierarchy is not used to dealing with highly educated women. Pius 12 urged women's education. Vatican 2 urged engagement with the world. But the hierarchy doesn't understand those who obey these things.
On the specific issue of healthcare, she said that 2 US federal courts had established that abortion was not part of it.
The nuns invited the Vatican to dialogue with them in 2010.
It would, thus, seem that the Vatican prefers its own monologue.
Leo - have you actually read the CDF document about this?
It specifically suggests the very opposite of what the nun you report on said, i.e. that there is evidence (inter alia) an inadequate formation, of which education surely plays a major part.
And as to the surprise, they were told about this at a meeting on 22nd April 2009. Have they been asleep for three years? In other such similar events, there is usually an extended period of consultation, requests for clarification etc. beforehand. I am not privy to what went on here, but there has clearly been something going on. Don't believe me? - try using the Google search customization facility to screen out the period relating to the current hoohah. It goes back years.
[ 23. April 2012, 21:19: Message edited by: Honest Ron Bacardi ]
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
No kidding! In This House of Brede made the teen-aged me want to be a nun! The fact that we were Baptists was a bit of a problem, especially since I thought you had to be born Catholic - I didn't know they took converts. But I still wanted to be a nun.
They could do far worse then reading "In This House of Brede" no simpering, cOokie-cutter characters there (many based on nuns at Stanbrook). They were indeed small-o orthodox but of the best kind.
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
Mary LA, could I ask you, or anyone else who actually knows South Africa, what the real situation is in regard to AIDS transference there?
I gather it is not mainly spread by genuinely monogamous couples? Especially not mainly monogamous Roman Catholic couples in the Republic, as I believe most South African Christians are Protestant.
I can understand the nuns social welfare initiative, aimed at damage minimization and societal improvement amongst the most disadvantaged (those in the townships?), who are not necessarily Roman Catholic and therefore neither subscribe to nor follow its tenets, clashing with official Vatican teaching, which is primarily aimed at Roman Catholics and certainly not binding on those who do not adhere to the Catholic Faith.
As someone officially outside the Church I see a titanic clash of wills on this one.
My gut feeling is that the Vatican will hold fast. I guess progressive Catholics will either have to take it or lump it. Speaking as an outside observer, I suspect that the Vatican will match the PR of progressive Catholics and their outside supporters.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Mary LA
Shipmate
# 17040
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Posted
Sir Pellinore, I'm going to answer this seriously and assume it isn't snark, something I may not always spot as I'm new to debates like these.
I'm sure Fuzzipeg can corroborate what I say.
To begin with, you need to understand that sexual violence in South Africa is a major problem. A recent Guardian article pointed out that according to statistics, a women is more likely to be raped than learn to read or write. This violence is endemic in townships but also in rural areas.
Sexual violence in South Africa
One of the highest rates of HIV transmission is amongst the youth who call it 'winning the lottery'. This means that by the time young men and women settle down in marriage, one or other are already infected with HIV and should be practising safe sex (use of condoms) to prevent the spouse being infected.
The rate of babies born with HIV infection is very high, although most children do not survive long enough to become sexually active.
One of the populations most vulnerable to rape here, as in the United States, is young men because of the high incarceration rates in local prisons. The rates of sexually transmitted HIV in prisons is rising.
We have an influx of destitute and often traumatised refugees and asylum seekers from Somalia, Mozambique, Zimbabwe, Rwanda, Congo etc. Many women are forced into prostitution in order to feed their children. There is little stigma attached to women who work as prostitutes under such circumstances and many attend church and receive counselling from pastoral workers. This contributes to the spread of Aids.
So the question of choice in a country where sexuality is predominantly coercive is a key factor in the spread of AIDS. To be a faithfully married young woman means little if you are living in an area where gangrape is the norm.
Then there is polygamy. Our President has just married his fourth or his sixth wife, depending on whether you count the wife who divorced him or the wife who committed suicide. Polygamy is the dominant practice in the rural areas but is growing in the cities. By and large the Christian churches (including the RCC) turn a blind eye to this because it is African custom and men are encouraged to bring only the most senior wife to church. Helen Epstein's reports on the spread of AIDS in rural southern Africa listed polygamy as another cause of the transmission of Aids.
South Africa is predominantly Protestant, but as the traditional denominations (Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, Anglican) have splintered, reformed as United churches, diminished or fallen away, we have experienced the rise of fundamentalist evangelical or Pentecostal 'Prosperity' churches. Where I live, many white members of the Dutch Reformed Church now attend the rallies of Pastor Chris from Nigeria and the village sangoma has more white clients than Xhosa. The sangoma-led shamanistic faiths often found within independent black Zionist and Ethiopian churches, including the Church of Moria in Limpopo are increasing. Roman Catholic influence has to do not so much with dwindling parishes and a shortage of priests in many areas but with the Catholic health care and educational facilities, especially in rural areas.
This is of course in contrast to the prevalent folk Catholicism of Mozambique and Angola and in several of my posts I was referring to those areas, not specifically South Africa.
I hope this goes some way to answering your questions. Catholic health workers serve whoever needs help.
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“I often wonder if we were all characters in one of God's dreams.”
― Muriel Spark
Posts: 499 | From: Africa | Registered: Apr 2012
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DitzySpike
Shipmate
# 1540
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Posted
Broadening the discussion on 'Obedience' started by Leo. Here's take on the concept from the religious order of another tradition:
quote:
This is the obedience that is needed today, and especially after 9/11. It is not an obedience which is the blind submission to the dictates of religious superiors. It is rather that deep attentiveness to those who speak different languages, and live by different sympathies and imagination. It is that ascetic exposure to other geographies of mind and heart, even within our own communities, so that we may be drawn out from the narrow prisons that separate human beings from each other. It is a creative obedience, in which together we seek new and old words, which offer fresh air and mutual ease. Religious communities should be the crucibles of renewed language. - Timothy Radcliffe, OP
The full paper is downloaded .here
Posts: 498 | From: Singapore | Registered: Oct 2001
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
Thank you Mary LA.
I thought the coercive sex and AIDS situation, which interact, were bad in RSA, but had no idea that they were quite so dreadful. A national disaster.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Fuzzipeg
Shipmate
# 10107
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Posted
Yes, Sir P, I fully endorse MaryM's comments. The situation was exacerbated by government denial under Mbeki and a good transport system that enabled infection to spread very rapidly often via migrant workers and truck drivers.
Extreme poverty has encouraged prostitution of children as well as mothers. Just one example I have is of a rescued 10 year old child forced into prostitution by her father to pay for medication for her mother dying of AIDS. After her mother's death the father enjoyed the extra income.
The RCC has done much through its health desk and the best known example of diocesan help has been through Kevin Dowling, Bishop of Rustenburg - an extremely poor diocese - who has built a hospice in the grounds of his house and spends much time, personally, with dying mothers and children. He has also been a strong advocate of prophylactics as protection against infection. He is not alone.
Come TT, I don't think that is a very good analogy. There is a big difference between your little eccentric group and the representatives of 44 000 religious who live under authority. They are certainly not an homogeneous group and there will obviously be those with radical opinions and those who are more conservative. I doubt whether Starbucks would be able to accommodate them.
Fortunately in this country we do not have separate organisations representing male and female religious, there is one organisation for both and that probably creates a more balanced approach.
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http://foodybooze.blogspot.co.za
Posts: 929 | From: Johannesburg, South Africa | Registered: Aug 2005
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
Let's just get back on track, harrowing and moving though the stories about AIDS in South Africa and the Catholic Church's response may be. That probably deserves a thread of its own.
You may shift the ground, dear Fuzzipeg, by talking of my "eccentric little group" by making a joke about Starbucks. The issue is not size: it is setting up a parallel Church.
I fully endorse your last paragraph though.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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kiwimacahau
Apprentice
# 12142
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
originally posted by opaWim:
What others say can be very enlightening for the RCC and RC's.
But apparently not for Old Catholics in New Zealand.
Try reading the entire conversation.
I have but perhaps you were not talking to me?
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It is necessary for some people to advertise they are christians, as no one would believe it from their behaviour. H. Haydon.
Posts: 33 | From: Deepest Darkest NZ | Registered: Dec 2006
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
Thanks Fuzzipeg. That information is harrowing indeed. Sounds similar, in many ways, to the way AIDS spread in India.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Broadening the discussion on 'Obedience' started by Leo. Here's take on the concept from the religious order of another tradition:
quote:
This is the obedience that is needed today, and especially after 9/11. It is not an obedience which is the blind submission to the dictates of religious superiors. It is rather that deep attentiveness to those who speak different languages, and live by different sympathies and imagination. It is that ascetic exposure to other geographies of mind and heart, even within our own communities, so that we may be drawn out from the narrow prisons that separate human beings from each other. It is a creative obedience, in which together we seek new and old words, which offer fresh air and mutual ease. Religious communities should be the crucibles of renewed language. - Timothy Radcliffe, OP
The full paper is downloaded .here
The fact that you are quoting Tim Radcliffe undermines the point you are trying to make given that when he was Master of the Dominicans he cassated the current Secretary of the Congregation for Divine Worship when the latter was elected Provincial of the Eastern Province of the US.
[ 24. April 2012, 11:04: Message edited by: CL ]
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
Mary LA, could I ask you, or anyone else who actually knows South Africa, what the real situation is in regard to AIDS transference there?
I gather it is not mainly spread by genuinely monogamous couples? Especially not mainly monogamous Roman Catholic couples in the Republic, as I believe most South African Christians are Protestant.
I can understand the nuns social welfare initiative, aimed at damage minimization and societal improvement amongst the most disadvantaged (those in the townships?), who are not necessarily Roman Catholic and therefore neither subscribe to nor follow its tenets, clashing with official Vatican teaching, which is primarily aimed at Roman Catholics and certainly not binding on those who do not adhere to the Catholic Faith.
As someone officially outside the Church I see a titanic clash of wills on this one.
My gut feeling is that the Vatican will hold fast. I guess progressive Catholics will either have to take it or lump it. Speaking as an outside observer, I suspect that the Vatican will match the PR of progressive Catholics and their outside supporters.
That is as maybe, but what is abundantly clear is that progressive Catholics now will have to be clandestine when dealing with the Vatican and those who will secretly report their non-conformance to them.
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Again, speaking as an outsider: Is the Vatican also cracking down on, say, syncretic beliefs and practices of churches in non-Christian-dominant countries? Because if this sudden urge to clean theological house is only directed toward American nuns, not also, say, toward developing-world churches where devotion to the indigenous religion of the area is tacitly or even explicitly a part of the belief/practice of local clergy and religious...then isn't this really not about theology and ecclesiastical obedience after all? In other words, is the Vatican equally concerned about nuns in the US who aren't being faithful enough foot soldiers to the political party line they're expected to convey to those whom they serve, and priests/religious in some, say, sub-Saharan country who for all intents and purposes have mingled Christianity with the animistic local belief system in a way that would make it difficult to identify a congregation, to an objective outsider, as an RC congregation in good standing with Rome? Is there a different standard for these two situations, and if so why?
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Again, speaking as an outsider: Is the Vatican also cracking down on, say, syncretic beliefs and practices of churches in non-Christian-dominant countries? Because if this sudden urge to clean theological house is only directed toward American nuns, not also, say, toward developing-world churches where devotion to the indigenous religion of the area is tacitly or even explicitly a part of the belief/practice of local clergy and religious...then isn't this really not about theology and ecclesiastical obedience after all? In other words, is the Vatican equally concerned about nuns in the US who aren't being faithful enough foot soldiers to the political party line they're expected to convey to those whom they serve, and priests/religious in some, say, sub-Saharan country who for all intents and purposes have mingled Christianity with the animistic local belief system in a way that would make it difficult to identify a congregation, to an objective outsider, as an RC congregation in good standing with Rome? Is there a different standard for these two situations, and if so why?
Is that the case? It wasn't in any part of Africa I've had dealings with.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
the word 'obedience' needs teasing out. At root, it is about listening and discerning. Is this listening to an external authority only or is it to one's own experience and conscience, weighing up scripture, tradition, reason etc.?
It is not the same as the childish 'do what you're told' sort of obedience.
Actually, I think in the context of religious vows it's about submitting to the guidance of your superiors and the authority of the Church. With respect, your definition sounds like a modern spin which subverts the intention of the vow, rather than fulfilling it.
I first heard this view of 'obedience' from a Benedictine abbot.
And how is that view of obedience working for his house? How many vocations a year are they receiving, compared to--say--100 years ago?
The Holy Father himself isn't concerned with numbers. He'd rather have a smaller, remnant church that a bigger, compromising institution.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Again, speaking as an outsider: Is the Vatican also cracking down on, say, syncretic beliefs and practices of churches in non-Christian-dominant countries? Because if this sudden urge to clean theological house is only directed toward American nuns, not also, say, toward developing-world churches where devotion to the indigenous religion of the area is tacitly or even explicitly a part of the belief/practice of local clergy and religious...then isn't this really not about theology and ecclesiastical obedience after all? In other words, is the Vatican equally concerned about nuns in the US who aren't being faithful enough foot soldiers to the political party line they're expected to convey to those whom they serve, and priests/religious in some, say, sub-Saharan country who for all intents and purposes have mingled Christianity with the animistic local belief system in a way that would make it difficult to identify a congregation, to an objective outsider, as an RC congregation in good standing with Rome? Is there a different standard for these two situations, and if so why?
To put it very simplistically Rome is currently trying to deal with the source of the loopy syncretism in the Developing World, i.e. heterodox/heretical Western clergy and religious who exported warped theologies through the missions. Asia has suffered particularly badly in that regard at the hands of the Jesuits (a particularly bilious old gasbag based in Tokyo comes to mind). Cut the root and the weed will die.
Fortunately the clean up has also started in these areas under a newer generation of bishops, such as Cardinal Ranjith in Sri Lanka.
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The Holy Father himself isn't concerned with numbers. He'd rather have a smaller, remnant church that a bigger, compromising institution.
The Pope never said he'd rather that, he merely posited that a smaller, "purer" Church may be inevitable for a variety of reasons.
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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opaWim
Shipmate
# 11137
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Posted
Feeling better after venting your bile?
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It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.
Posts: 524 | From: The Marshes | Registered: Mar 2006
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
Feeling better after venting your bile?
I have absolutely no idea what this is in reference to.
--Tom Clune
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This space left blank intentionally.
Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
I have absolutely no idea what this is in reference to.
Almost certainly, this post by CL just above?
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
You don't? This is opaWim's version of the now classic progressive retort, "Why are you so angry?" It rarely ever makes sense to non-progressives but progressives still enjoy saying it. The now classic non-progressive response is ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) with saying, "whatever," optional.
In any event, the question and reply signal an end to the productive phase of the conversation assuming any previous phase of the conversation was productive.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Genevičve
Mother-Hatting Cat Lover
# 9098
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Again, speaking as an outsider: Is the Vatican also cracking down on, say, syncretic beliefs and practices of churches in non-Christian-dominant countries? Because if this sudden urge to clean theological house is only directed toward American nuns, not also, say, toward developing-world churches where devotion to the indigenous religion of the area is tacitly or even explicitly a part of the belief/practice of local clergy and religious...then isn't this really not about theology and ecclesiastical obedience after all? In other words, is the Vatican equally concerned about nuns in the US who aren't being faithful enough foot soldiers to the political party line they're expected to convey to those whom they serve, and priests/religious in some, say, sub-Saharan country who for all intents and purposes have mingled Christianity with the animistic local belief system in a way that would make it difficult to identify a congregation, to an objective outsider, as an RC congregation in good standing with Rome? Is there a different standard for these two situations, and if so why?
To put it very simplistically Rome is currently trying to deal with the source of the loopy syncretism in the Developing World, i.e. heterodox/heretical Western clergy and religious who exported warped theologies through the missions. Asia has suffered particularly badly in that regard at the hands of the Jesuits (a particularly bilious old gasbag based in Tokyo comes to mind). Cut the root and the weed will die.
Fortunately the clean up has also started in these areas under a newer generation of bishops, such as Cardinal Ranjith in Sri Lanka.
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"Ineffable" defined: "I cannot and will not be effed with." (Courtesy of CCTooSweet in Running the Books)
Posts: 4336 | From: Eastern US | Registered: Feb 2005
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
Thanks, one and all. No more clues to the clueless are required.
--Tom Clune
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This space left blank intentionally.
Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Genevičve
Mother-Hatting Cat Lover
# 9098
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Posted
It is obvious what this is all about, and the only thing that surprises me--quite seriously--is that it has taken so long for the Pope to get busy stompin' the uppity women. Stomping down--always under the guise of upholding theological orthodoxy, created for the very purpose of being available when needed for the stompin' down--uppity women who dare to think for themselves has been going on for millenia in various religions. We can be grateful the Pope does not have the clout to use brutality of the Inquisition, or the Taliban trick of burning down buildings and throwing acid in the eyes of girls who want to learn to read (because, yes, reading does lead to independ thinking and then uppity behavior.)
We are seeing some of this in the US in our current political debates on the "role" of women.
Keep em' barefoot, pregant, and doing all the scut work in the church and all will be well.
No doubt other posters will suggest I am going off track, not taking the debate seriously, throwing in a red herring, etc. and yadda yadda. But I am very serious about what I see happening. Religion has unfortunately been a very forceful and effective tool in keeping women subjugated and under CONTROL.
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"Ineffable" defined: "I cannot and will not be effed with." (Courtesy of CCTooSweet in Running the Books)
Posts: 4336 | From: Eastern US | Registered: Feb 2005
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
Well, I must say, Genevieve, you've quite won me round with your mastery of the facts and quiet reason. How long have you been driving taxis now?
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Shame those nuns are forced to remain in such a misogynistic institution guided by an evil man who wants to throw acid in their eyes and burn them at the stake. Shame other churches don't have nuns or even women priests. Shame churches don't exist in which most of the opinions the Vatican takes issue with are bog standard.
Oh wait...
Well, it's certainly wrong for the Roman Catholic Church to only discipline women. Only women who do what women aren't traditionally supposed to do. The Vatican also has a disgusting habit of disciplining a surprising number of women with male names like Hans, Charles, Leonardo, Paul, Matthew and Josef. I had always assumed they were men. However, if the Vatican disciplined them, they must be women because the Vatican only disciplines educated women who think for themselves.
quote:
originally posted by Genevieve:
No doubt other posters will suggest I am going off track, not taking the debate seriously, throwing in a red herring, etc. and yadda yadda.
No doubt at all
Oh...
Why are you so angry?
Feeling better after venting all your bile?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Genevičve
Mother-Hatting Cat Lover
# 9098
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Posted
Chesterbelloc,
Who ever controls the meta-narrative, whoever controls the waydiscourse is handled has the power. I offered what I consider to be an illumination of the larger struggle going on.
This struggle has gone on, and continues to go on in various religious institutions and settings. I stand by that position.
I wouldn't expect you to agree with me; I wouldn't even expect you to think my interpretation is correct. But I would not take a shot at you personally. Of course, if I were driving taxis I might be making more money.
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"Ineffable" defined: "I cannot and will not be effed with." (Courtesy of CCTooSweet in Running the Books)
Posts: 4336 | From: Eastern US | Registered: Feb 2005
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Genevičve
Mother-Hatting Cat Lover
# 9098
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Posted
Yes, thank you, BW, I do feel better after expressing my opinion.
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"Ineffable" defined: "I cannot and will not be effed with." (Courtesy of CCTooSweet in Running the Books)
Posts: 4336 | From: Eastern US | Registered: Feb 2005
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windsofchange
Shipmate
# 13000
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
No kidding! In This House of Brede made the teen-aged me want to be a nun! The fact that we were Baptists was a bit of a problem, especially since I thought you had to be born Catholic - I didn't know they took converts. But I still wanted to be a nun.
They could do far worse then reading "In This House of Brede" no simpering, cOokie-cutter characters there (many based on nuns at Stanbrook). They were indeed small-o orthodox but of the best kind.
Yes, and just at the cusp of Vatican II - in fact, the novel is basically an overview in microcosm of that era in Catholic Church history just before and just after VII.
It's one of my favorites too, but I think it's time for a sequel, in which Dame Phillipa is now Phillipa, the Coordinator.
Cecily, driven to the point of insanity by too much Marty Haugen and Cary Landry, has finally left and set up housekeeping with an elderly but still vital Dame Maura (now just "that old dame").
And Hilary? She's still in the kitchen, peeling potatoes and enjoying the knowledge that she really doesn't HAVE to do any of this if she doesn't want to. Some things never change.
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"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on." (owner of Coney Island Freak Show, upon learning someone outbid him for a 5-legged puppy)
Posts: 153 | From: Reseda, CA, USA | Registered: Sep 2007
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opaWim
Shipmate
# 11137
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
You don't? This is opaWim's version of the now classic progressive retort, "Why are you so angry?"
That is only a part of what I meant, though I fail to understand what is particularly progressive about that. Surely you don't mean to say that inquiring why their opponents are angry isn't the done thing for non-progressives?
I wouldn't have bothered to react to the gratuitous biliousness of that -for all I know possibly even unwarranted- minispeech, were it not that CL neglected to supply the name of that "particularly bilious old gasbag based in Tokyo". In fact, he didn't supply any name at all, apart from the name of the good guy, which left it all hanging in a vacuum.
Is wondering who attacks are directed against progressive too?
In hindsight I should have just asked CL outright who he meant, but I'm only human.
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It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.
Posts: 524 | From: The Marshes | Registered: Mar 2006
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
You don't? This is opaWim's version of the now classic progressive retort, "Why are you so angry?"
That is only a part of what I meant, though I fail to understand what is particularly progressive about that. Surely you don't mean to say that inquiring why their opponents are angry isn't the done thing for non-progressives?
I wouldn't have bothered to react to the gratuitous biliousness of that -for all I know possibly even unwarranted- minispeech, were it not that CL neglected to supply the name of that "particularly bilious old gasbag based in Tokyo". In fact, he didn't supply any name at all, apart from the name of the good guy, which left it all hanging in a vacuum.
Is wondering who attacks are directed against progressive too?
In hindsight I should have just asked CL outright who he meant, but I'm only human.
Pardon me for forgetting that this forum isn't part of the Catholic blogosphere where my reference wouldn't need to be spelled out as it would be blindingly obvious who I was talking about - Fr Joseph O'Leary of Sophia University; devotee of Rahner, Schillebeeckx and Buddha.
[ 24. April 2012, 21:45: Message edited by: CL ]
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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kiwimacahau
Apprentice
# 12142
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The Holy Father himself isn't concerned with numbers. He'd rather have a smaller, remnant church that a bigger, compromising institution.
The Pope never said he'd rather that, he merely posited that a smaller, "purer" Church may be inevitable for a variety of reasons.
To be both blunt and honest, the Vatican is one of those institutions human history would be much, much better without. It's insistence on the maintenance of male power structures, it's handling of those who disagree, it's desire to see itself as the sole vehicle of divine grace all point to it's overweening pride and arrogance.
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It is necessary for some people to advertise they are christians, as no one would believe it from their behaviour. H. Haydon.
Posts: 33 | From: Deepest Darkest NZ | Registered: Dec 2006
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kiwimacahau
Apprentice
# 12142
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
You don't? This is opaWim's version of the now classic progressive retort, "Why are you so angry?"
That is only a part of what I meant, though I fail to understand what is particularly progressive about that. Surely you don't mean to say that inquiring why their opponents are angry isn't the done thing for non-progressives?
I wouldn't have bothered to react to the gratuitous biliousness of that -for all I know possibly even unwarranted- minispeech, were it not that CL neglected to supply the name of that "particularly bilious old gasbag based in Tokyo". In fact, he didn't supply any name at all, apart from the name of the good guy, which left it all hanging in a vacuum.
Is wondering who attacks are directed against progressive too?
In hindsight I should have just asked CL outright who he meant, but I'm only human.
Pardon me for forgetting that this forum isn't part of the Catholic blogosphere where my reference wouldn't need to be spelled out as it would be blindingly obvious who I was talking about - Fr Joseph O'Leary of Sophia University; devotee of Rahner, Schillebeeckx and Buddha.
Ah, so your problem with this man would seem to be that he does not deal with others via the usual politics of power that the Vatican uses.
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It is necessary for some people to advertise they are christians, as no one would believe it from their behaviour. H. Haydon.
Posts: 33 | From: Deepest Darkest NZ | Registered: Dec 2006
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by kiwimacahau:
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The Holy Father himself isn't concerned with numbers. He'd rather have a smaller, remnant church that a bigger, compromising institution.
The Pope never said he'd rather that, he merely posited that a smaller, "purer" Church may be inevitable for a variety of reasons.
To be both blunt and honest, the Vatican is one of those institutions human history would be much, much better without. It's insistence on the maintenance of male power structures, it's handling of those who disagree, it's desire to see itself as the sole vehicle of divine grace all point to it's overweening pride and arrogance.
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by windsofchange:
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
No kidding! In This House of Brede made the teen-aged me want to be a nun! The fact that we were Baptists was a bit of a problem, especially since I thought you had to be born Catholic - I didn't know they took converts. But I still wanted to be a nun.
They could do far worse then reading "In This House of Brede" no simpering, cOokie-cutter characters there (many based on nuns at Stanbrook). They were indeed small-o orthodox but of the best kind.
Yes, and just at the cusp of Vatican II - in fact, the novel is basically an overview in microcosm of that era in Catholic Church history just before and just after VII.
It's one of my favorites too, but I think it's time for a sequel, in which Dame Phillipa is now Phillipa, the Coordinator.
Cecily, driven to the point of insanity by too much Marty Haugen and Cary Landry, has finally left and set up housekeeping with an elderly but still vital Dame Maura (now just "that old dame").
And Hilary? She's still in the kitchen, peeling potatoes and enjoying the knowledge that she really doesn't HAVE to do any of this if she doesn't want to. Some things never change.
That is an uncannily close account of what has happened at and to Stanbrook in the last ten or so years.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
quote:
Originally posted by windsofchange:
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
No kidding! In This House of Brede made the teen-aged me want to be a nun! The fact that we were Baptists was a bit of a problem, especially since I thought you had to be born Catholic - I didn't know they took converts. But I still wanted to be a nun.
They could do far worse then reading "In This House of Brede" no simpering, cOokie-cutter characters there (many based on nuns at Stanbrook). They were indeed small-o orthodox but of the best kind.
Yes, and just at the cusp of Vatican II - in fact, the novel is basically an overview in microcosm of that era in Catholic Church history just before and just after VII.
It's one of my favorites too, but I think it's time for a sequel, in which Dame Phillipa is now Phillipa, the Coordinator.
Cecily, driven to the point of insanity by too much Marty Haugen and Cary Landry, has finally left and set up housekeeping with an elderly but still vital Dame Maura (now just "that old dame").
And Hilary? She's still in the kitchen, peeling potatoes and enjoying the knowledge that she really doesn't HAVE to do any of this if she doesn't want to. Some things never change.
That is an uncannily close account of what has happened at and to Stanbrook in the last ten or so years.
"The truth will out"? Ultimately.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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opaWim
Shipmate
# 11137
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
Pardon me for forgetting that this forum isn't part of the Catholic blogosphere
Just curious, how/why could/would you forget that?
quote:
where my reference wouldn't need to be spelled out as it would be blindingly obvious who I was talking about - Fr Joseph O'Leary of Sophia University; devotee of Rahner, Schillebeeckx and Buddha.
Thankfully I'm no longer part of the Catholic Bogosphere, and after googling "Fr. Joseph O'Leary", I am once again reminded why I don't care to be.
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It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.
Posts: 524 | From: The Marshes | Registered: Mar 2006
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