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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: School closures
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
There is a lot of discussion in the media today about school closures.
If teachers are not in work everybody notices. I wish this would lead them to appreciate us more.
I want to note that we are not employed as childminders. Would that we were paid childminders rates!
Schools are closed when not enough teachers can get in to school for there to be a safe ratio of adults to children. (Due to traffic chaos, road closures etc) Some of our teachers travel for an hour to school on normal non-snowy days.
I know it inconveniences parents but surely they prefer that to their children being packed in the hall with a couple of TAs as used to happen in the past?
What do you think Shipmates?
[ 10. April 2013, 05:55: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Difficult one. From my own selfish perspective, two points:
1. I had to go into work yesterday and Friday. Two reasons: (a) I had completions to do and clients were relying on me being there to be able to move house and (b)if we didn't turn up, we wouldn't have earned any money. The other private sector people with whom I had dealings on those two days (estate agents, fello solicitors, mortgage advisers, bank staff, etc) all managed to turn up too, so I'm not quite sure why we were able to do it and the local teachers apparently weren't...?
2. Teachers, whether they like it or not, are effectively being increasingly relied upon for childcare in an age where you have single-parent households or where both parents work. One of my fellow-parents was bemoaning the fact that she had to take the day off work on Friday not because she couldn't get into work but because the school was closed and she couldn't arrange child care, There is therefore a big 'on-cost' to families and the wider economy when schools are closed.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Thing is, Matt, I doubt if your office is located in a village 2 miles from the nearest A road ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Schools are closed when not enough teachers can get in to school for there to be a safe ratio of adults to children. (Due to traffic chaos, road closures etc) Some of our teachers travel for an hour to school on normal non-snowy days.
This could easily be solved if "snow days" were declared across a borough and every teacher had to go into the school closest to them.
I imagine that more schools would stay open if teachers didn't get paid for snow days like people in the private sector.
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He hath loved us, He hath loved us, because he would love
Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
My wife is a teacher and has got cross by this media attention, which she regards as yet another "knock-the-teachers" story. After all, they (teachers) are clearly responsible for all the ills which afflict or society today.
I think - certainly for Primary Schools in rural areas - the change from small local village schools to larger more centralised ones has had its effect. In the past teachers lived in the School House and children walked to school (except from outlying farms) - now nearly everyone has to drive or must rely on school bus services, and it is often these rural roads which do not get cleared in snow. It's notable that most of the schools which closed here in Suffolk were rural ones, not the ones in town (although one teacher in my wife's school, who lives in a small village, did not get in to school yesterday).
However there is another side to this which leaves a nasty taste in the mouth! My wife went to school as normal yesterday (by bus as I am unable to drive at present). She got to school on time and noted that not only the roads but also the pavements near the school had been gritted. But only half the children turned up, even though this is a town and the vast majority come on foot. On her journey home (she only works part-time) she saw four children from three families out and about rather than in school. So the parents thought nothing in keeping their children "off" - yet they may be the very same ones who complain if school is shut.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Parents keeping their kids off when teachers can get in is likewise unnacceptable.
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Thing is, Matt, I doubt if your office is located in a village 2 miles from the nearest A road
Neither is our kids' school
[ 22. January 2013, 09:13: Message edited by: Matt Black ]
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
This could easily be solved if "snow days" were declared across a borough and every teacher had to go into the school closest to them.
Possibly, but don't forget the complexities of the (English) education system nowadays with the existence of LEA schools (all 'locally managed'), Academies, Free Schools and the like ... teachers can't just swap from one to the other and issues such as the eligibility of CRB forms, contractual employment and budgetting would inevitably arise.
What you are suggesting might have worked in the past (although even then it would have led to lots of telephoning and organisation); today I think it would be unworkable.
[ 22. January 2013, 09:16: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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AberVicar
Mornington Star
# 16451
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Posted
Keyboard jockeys need to read about incidents like this
Abercarn School Bus - South Wales Argus
before rushing to conclusions.
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Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, make sure you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes.
Posts: 742 | From: Abertillery | Registered: May 2011
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
My school made the call to open late (8.30am), and it was the wrong decision. I live 15 mins walk away, but some teachers live an hour's travel away on a good day. We called in supply teachers to cover the gaps, and closed at 1.30pm, because the weather was exactly as forecast.
I genuinely appreciate the disruption to parents that it causes (because I am one). But there are statutory adult-to-children ratios to consider along with duty of care obligations not just to the staff, but to the pupils as well.
The weather yesterday was filthy. The snow was exactly the wrong temperature, and there was an awful lot of it. Sometimes everyone has to accept that moving many thousands of children around an area where visibility is low and the probability of accidents high isn't the smartest thing to do.
Also, Leprechaun: sure, because teachers are completely interchangeable.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
My eldest's school was closed yesterday as it is a village college with a large rural catchment area and the school buses were cancelled, so quite reasonable. I can also see why they would be cautious if the school buses were still running; a heavy snowfall later might mean children and teachers stranded for several hours. I do not drive and the school is 4 miles away so we are rather reliant on buses.
My youngest's primary school was open but most of the staff and pupils are local. They seldom close.
I am quite certain schools do not close so that everyone can have a fun day off. As an ex-nurse who has walked across fields through all sorts of weather to get to work I can honestly say that, despite what the media says, not all public servants are skivers.
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Dog Activity Monitor
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Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Also, Leprechaun: sure, because teachers are completely interchangeable.
Who says they are? But the issue raised was that its unsafe because the ratios aren't good enough - which could be solved by teachers going to their nearest school. Undoubtedly this wouldn't be a great educational experience, but needs must and all that.
Mind you, I do accept Baptist Trainfan's points about rural schools and decentralisation means my solution is probably not workable.
I live in a major city and nearly all the schools were closed on Friday when there was less than 2cm of snow. I can't think of a single other job where the snow would have been regarded as a legitimate reason not to be in work. Parents were in the impossible situation of having to be in work, but their kids teachers not being. I think there must be a better solution to this somewhere.
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He hath loved us, He hath loved us, because he would love
Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Lep - your interpretation appears to be "teachers are nesh and it's all their fault they could get in if they wanted to or were forced to by facing losing a day's pay?"
That's a bit of an accusation that requires some pretty good evidence beyond "the snow didn't seem that bad to me."
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
No one wants to spend millions on ploughs and gritters that get used for a week a year (if that) when there are other things like schools, libraries, sport facilities, social care etc to pay for.
Alternatively, we do, and it'll cost us more.
On another note, my kids' secondary school opened late yesterday to give extra travel time for teachers - but only between a half and two-thirds of the kids could be bothered to walk in. My school (a primary) had pretty much everyone turn up. (/tangent What is it that happens between primary and secondary that makes some (a reasonably sized minority, at least) children just go 'meh'? /tangent)
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
No one wants to spend millions on ploughs and gritters that get used for a week a year (if that) when there are other things like schools, libraries, sport facilities, social care etc to pay for.
Alternatively, we do, and it'll cost us more.
On another note, my kids' secondary school opened late yesterday to give extra travel time for teachers - but only between a half and two-thirds of the kids could be bothered to walk in. My school (a primary) had pretty much everyone turn up. (/tangent What is it that happens between primary and secondary that makes some (a reasonably sized minority, at least) children just go 'meh'? /tangent)
[tangent]Son #1 is 8 and very meh. He does well at school, and enjoys a lot of what he does there, but his various digits were so crossed on Sunday night that Monday'd be a snow day that I worried he'd give himself arthritis. His view is that it's not that school is awful, but he's got a lot of other things he'd rather be doing. I take a similar view towards work.[/tangent]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
(/tangent What is it that happens between primary and secondary that makes some (a reasonably sized minority, at least) children just go 'meh'? /tangent)
Hormones.
To add to the discussion on going into your nearest school. I have rung up the school closest to me in past situations like this and been informed that it would be impossible as it would create all sorts of problems for the school... mainly because they were different LEAs...
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Lep - your interpretation appears to be "teachers are nesh and it's all their fault they could get in if they wanted to or were forced to by facing losing a day's pay?"
My interpretation is
1) teachers were not in work when the vast majority of parents of pupils were (or at least, were planning to be until they had to stay at home)
2) Where I live (and I can't speak for anywhere else) there was not a single other employer of any one of my friends and acquaintances that closed.
3) Plenty of people don't get paid if they don't go in to work. Of course, it may be that all the teachers were busy working away at home doing marking etc.
4) I don't know what nesh means.
I actually have loads of respect for teaching as a profession. I reckon they are largely underpaid for the job that they do, which I certainly couldn't do. But I also think that lots of teachers feel that too, and so any chance for some extra time off is jumped at, almost as a right because the rest of pay and conditions are so rubbish.
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He hath loved us, He hath loved us, because he would love
Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Businesses didn't close, but you can bet that a significant portion of people didn't make it in - certainly the case here. When that happens at most businesses, they carry on with lots of staff not there. When that happens at a school, it has to close because of staff ratios etc.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
We don't live in a rural backwater, and most primary children live close to their school and yet most of the schools were closed.
Our priamry wasn't,and it was one of very few who were open and some of the staff do travel a long way but the school worked around it.
Fair enough if you are rural or there are heating problems etc, but the weather was truly not that bad here and I really can't see why so many had to close
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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claret10
Ship's Paranoid Android
# 16341
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Posted
The two schools I have taught in only ever closed when absolutely necessary. The safety of the teaching staff getting there was never one of the reasons. The majority of time the schools closed was for the safety of the children getting there. Over 50% of the children attended by bus, both schools were rural-ish and one at the top of a hill. There had once been an incident of a bus sliding down the hill on the ice, which was both a risk for the children on the bus and those walking beside it. The other time the school closed was the innability to provide lunch for the pupils. As pupils on free school meals are entitled to lunch, if it can not be provided the school has to close. (I'm not sure on why that is but it happened in both schools)
Another reason I know for some of the local schools in our town closing is stupid health and safety rules that I don't understand and don't seem to apply universally. Apparently they are not allowed to grit paths as if a child or adult then slips they are libel and at risk of being sued.
When I was teaching I hated snow days as usually i managed to get into work, only to spend the morning babysitting groups of kids before sending them home early, there were never enough kids or teachers to carry on 'normally', which meant disruption to the already crowded curriculum and the task i hated, of impromtu management and entertainment of kids who thought it was unfair they had to be there when the buses hadn't made it.
I do agree it is a difficult situation and some parents are inconvenienced. Would like to add however that most teachers do not really get a day off, as any spare time i had was spent marking, planning and completing pointless paperwork.
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Posts: 137 | From: Somewhere, nowhere, anywhere | Registered: Apr 2011
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
Another factor to consider in the staying open stakes - my Dad (now retired) was a teacher in a very deprived part of Birmingham. Considerable numbers of the children were on free school meals. Every effort was made to keep the school open at least until lunchtime, even if the children were just told to play and not taught anything, because it ensured that they would be fed.
I wonder if another reason for the closures is the increasingly litigious culture. Back in the day, if a child had fallen down and broken their arm in the snow, it would have been viewed as one of those unfortunate things that happens. These days I think (some) parents would be much quicker to sue the school.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
The gritted path--->litigation is something of an Urban Myth, IIRC.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
(/tangent What is it that happens between primary and secondary that makes some (a reasonably sized minority, at least) children just go 'meh'? /tangent)
Hormones.
I would also suggest it is a supervision thing, with secondary kids more likely to be left at home to look after themselves. Parents would have to look after the primary school ones at home so are more likely to take them in. There's also more likely to be distance and transport issues with secondary schools. I'm guessing older ones find it easier to bunk off too, as their parents don't walk them to school.
Saying that, my eleven year old was keen to get back to school today, he likes the structure of a school day.
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'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
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Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by claret10:
Apparently they are not allowed to grit paths as if a child or adult then slips they are libel and at risk of being sued.
Are you absolutely sure of this- i.e. have you actually seen directives which say it? I'm afraid it does sound like one of those "Health and Safety" urban myths that everyone believes but which have no substance in law.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
The gritted path--->litigation is something of an Urban Myth, IIRC.
I agree, our school always grits the paths, though they do shut the playground if it is icy (the kids play in a field of snow at break instead ![[Smile]](smile.gif) )
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Dog Activity Monitor
My shop
Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I strongly suspect our local authority closes schools so that it can put its gritting efforts into keeping the main commuter routes open (which it generally does).
My daughter is off today. I'm sitting here with a mug of hot chocolate and a plate of freshly baked cookies as a result, so I'm feeling entirely benevolent about the situation!
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Tangent - our primary school was built and is maintained through PPI; all the paths are gritted and cleared whether or not the school is open, as apparently the PPI contract means the maintenance company can charge for work done regardless. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Point of order - local authorities do not close schools. It's the headteacher's call.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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claret10
Ship's Paranoid Android
# 16341
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by claret10:
Apparently they are not allowed to grit paths as if a child or adult then slips they are libel and at risk of being sued.
Are you absolutely sure of this- i.e. have you actually seen directives which say it? I'm afraid it does sound like one of those "Health and Safety" urban myths that everyone believes but which have no substance in law.
Well personally I was told this by someone who works at that particular school and was shocked. I'd never come across it before as all the schools I taught in happily gritted the paths. So i'm not sure if the school has it in writing. The person who told me was a cleaner and doesn't get paid unless she works and was irritated by the answers she had been given. It may be one of those grapevine rumours that covers why someone was too lazy to grit. However I will see this person later and I guess conversation will come to this topic, so I will investigate, cos it does seem ludicrous to me.
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Just when you think life can't possibly get any worse it suddenly does
Posts: 137 | From: Somewhere, nowhere, anywhere | Registered: Apr 2011
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kingsfold
Shipmate
# 1726
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Posted
quote:
posted by KarlLB:
Point of order - local authorities do not close schools. It's the headteacher's call.
Not sure if that's the case in Scotland. I seem to recall some discussion a couple of years back about the schools being closed if authorities couldn't guarantee that they could get the kids in and back home again as the majority were on School buses. NEQ? You'd have a better idea on that one.
Posts: 4473 | From: land of the wee midgie | Registered: Nov 2001
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Leprechaun: quote:
...teachers were not in work when the vast majority of parents of pupils were (or at least, were planning to be until they had to stay at home)...
I am sure all the teachers of the schools that closed were also planning to be at work until they had to stay at home. Most of them are probably also concerned about how their classes will make up the lost time, especially any whose pupils are due to take exams or SATS next term.
I think the suggestion that large numbers of teachers take any excuse they can to get out of going to work is outrageous, although I see the Chinless Wonder who is currently Minister for Education is busy maligning them all. No doubt he will be among the first to put the boot in if any children are injured or killed as a result of this tough line on keeping schools open that he is advocating.
My daughter's school is open (though we haven't had that much snow here - a couple of inches, maybe). Even in The Big Snow the winter before last, when we had about a foot of it, they only closed for one day. However, our village is right next to a main road (always kept well-gritted), most of the teachers live less than half an hour's journey away (some are within walking distance if all else fails) and nearly all the children walk to school. I can quite understand why headteachers in rural areas have to close their schools; and secondary schools have bigger catchment areas, so they are more likely to have difficulties than primaries. Of course, if the head knew in advance how many pupils were going to skive off it might be possible to reach a suitable staff/student ratio even if half the staff can't get in... but in the absence of any other information they have to assume every pupil will be there.
As several people have already pointed out, most teachers live further away from the school than the pupils. It's no fun living in your school's catchment area; every time you poke your head outside your front door you're liable to be accosted by a pupil or parent, so it's like being at work all the time.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by kingsfold:
quote:
posted by KarlLB:
Point of order - local authorities do not close schools. It's the headteacher's call.
Not sure if that's the case in Scotland. I seem to recall some discussion a couple of years back about the schools being closed if authorities couldn't guarantee that they could get the kids in and back home again as the majority were on School buses. NEQ? You'd have a better idea on that one.
Not sure. Mine's off today because school transport isn't running, and that definitely isn't the headteacher's call.
I'm not allowed to drive my child to school if the bus isn't running. The school have a responsibility for any child delivered to school by school transport; they don't want to get landed with children who have been driven to school in case the parents can't pick them up again. ( I assume this would be waived if the parent actually worked in the school.)
I think the local authority has certain triggers which mean that schools can't open (if a certain pupil / teacher ratio can't be met, if frozen pipes are affecting the water supply, if there's a problem with supplying school meals etc) and it's the head teacher's call in borderline cases.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by claret10:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by claret10:
Apparently they are not allowed to grit paths as if a child or adult then slips they are libel and at risk of being sued.
Are you absolutely sure of this- i.e. have you actually seen directives which say it? I'm afraid it does sound like one of those "Health and Safety" urban myths that everyone believes but which have no substance in law.
Well personally I was told this by someone who works at that particular school and was shocked. I'd never come across it before as all the schools I taught in happily gritted the paths. So i'm not sure if the school has it in writing. The person who told me was a cleaner and doesn't get paid unless she works and was irritated by the answers she had been given. It may be one of those grapevine rumours that covers why someone was too lazy to grit. However I will see this person later and I guess conversation will come to this topic, so I will investigate, cos it does seem ludicrous to me.
This is firmly in Health and Safety mythology:
Government guidance says quote:
Don’t be put off clearing paths because you’re afraid someone will get injured. Remember, people walking on snow and ice have a responsibility to be careful themselves.
Follow the advice below to make sure you clear the pathway safely and effectively.
And don’t believe the myths - it's unlikely you'll be sued or held legally responsible for any injuries if you have cleared the path carefully.
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On other days you are the windscreen.
Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
4) I don't know what nesh means.
Someone who is nesh wears thermal underwear and a scarf in May.
The opposite of nesh is the archetypical Geordie clubber in sleeveless dress or T-shirt in a Northumbrian snowstorm.
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
I imagine that more schools would stay open if teachers didn't get paid for snow days like people in the private sector.
In every US state that I have lived in, the schools are required to be open a certain number of days, which means the teachers are required to work. If there are a lot of snow days, the school lets out later in the spring.
Moo
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Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
I imagine that more schools would stay open if teachers didn't get paid for snow days like people in the private sector.
In every US state that I have lived in, the schools are required to be open a certain number of days, which means the teachers are required to work. If there are a lot of snow days, the school lets out later in the spring.
Moo
So teachers who have booked holidays would have to cancel them?
Actually, a school closure results in a heck of a lot of work - rearranging lessons, rebooking resources etc.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
quote:
And don’t believe the myths - it's unlikely you'll be sued or held legally responsible for any injuries if you have cleared the path carefully.
So it is true. If you clear a path carelessly, you can be held responsible for injuries caused by your carelessness. And who will be the judge of whether you were careless? The ambulance chasers will. Stay safe and leave the path untreated. Nothing they've said has put my mind at rest.
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
I imagine that more schools would stay open if teachers didn't get paid for snow days like people in the private sector.
In every US state that I have lived in, the schools are required to be open a certain number of days, which means the teachers are required to work. If there are a lot of snow days, the school lets out later in the spring.
Moo
So teachers who have booked holidays would have to cancel them?
Actually, a school closure results in a heck of a lot of work - rearranging lessons, rebooking resources etc.
If there is the possibility of the school year needing to run longer due to closure days, a smart system would have the staff contracted to work during the week after the end of the year on things like training, reporting or preparation for the next school year. If the school year needs to run longer, those days would be converted to normal school days. If it's not, then the staff could do those other duties or take that time off with pay to compensate them for the huge amounts of unpaid overtime that all teachers work during the school year.
If it's possible to satisfy the requirements based on hours open instead of days open, it could work to extend the school day by one extra period, or by all periods being five minutes longer than is needed. Enough 'bonus' time could easily be accumulated this way to account for a fair few unplanned closure days. Once the part of the year prone to weather closures is over, if the school is still 'ahead' it could switch to working in reverse by having a shorter day or finishing the school year a few days early.
[ 22. January 2013, 15:46: Message edited by: the giant cheeseburger ]
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
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And don’t believe the myths - it's unlikely you'll be sued or held legally responsible for any injuries if you have cleared the path carefully.
So it is true. If you clear a path carelessly, you can be held responsible for injuries caused by your carelessness. And who will be the judge of whether you were careless? The ambulance chasers will.
Nope. The judge, not the lawyers.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
In every US state that I have lived in, the schools are required to be open a certain number of days, which means the teachers are required to work. If there are a lot of snow days, the school lets out later in the spring.
So teachers who have booked holidays would have to cancel them?
Yes, of course. If they booked a holiday starting the day after the last scheduled day of the school year, they would have to cancel or reschedule. But most districts plan the make-up days when they plan their annual calendar. If there are no days to make up, then the day marked as the last day of school is the last day of school. If there are make-up days, then the school year runs through however many make-up days are necessary.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
In every US state that I have lived in, the schools are required to be open a certain number of days, which means the teachers are required to work. If there are a lot of snow days, the school lets out later in the spring.
I think this is an excellent idea - and would endorse its introduction.
But it wouldn't stop those who think of schools as childminding centres from complaining.
The insinuation that teachers don't want to be in school is plain insulting. Teachers work incredibly hard and very long hours. When I taught full time I was in school at 7:30, left at 6:00 and did at least an hours marking every evening. Sunday was written planning day. I now get paid for teaching two days but work four when you include the marking and preparation. Add to that the fact that we need to be as vigilant as air traffic controllers all day long.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
Let me start by saying that my daughter's teachers are amazing people, who are very probably underpaid and certainly don't get as many holidays as they deserve. I know that since I know the school calendar.
Having said that, although schools are clearly not primarily child minding centers, they are among other things clearly that. If all parents are working, then they will have plans for what to do about their children. School-age children will clearly be planned to be in school. Yes, ideally everyone would have a backup plan that would cover not just sick children but also inclement weather days, but as noted in the thread about the teacher who tok her sick kid to class, that's a lot easier said than done for many people. Of course unplanned school holidays, as scheduled by the weather are really frustrating to parents. While I promise not to blame the teachers, I think it unfair to suggest parents should not be able to expect their children will be at school on a schoolday. One Has to expect life to be normal or one would go crazy!
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Perhaps Michael Gove and his hordes of 'experts' would step in and cover for teachers unable to get to work. Since he appears to believe that class sizes do not matter, he and his friends should each be able to keep around 100 children constructively occupied and edified for the one or two days in the British winter when the weather causes problems.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by kingsfold:
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posted by KarlLB:
Point of order - local authorities do not close schools. It's the headteacher's call.
Not sure if that's the case in Scotland. I seem to recall some discussion a couple of years back about the schools being closed if authorities couldn't guarantee that they could get the kids in and back home again as the majority were on School buses. NEQ? You'd have a better idea on that one.
I've checked - it is the headteacher's decision. However, that decision has to be made within a set of guidelines, so its not clear to me how much discretion the headteacher has to remain open in bad conditions.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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AberVicar
Mornington Star
# 16451
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Perhaps Michael Gove and his hordes of 'experts' would step in and cover for teachers unable to get to work. Since he appears to believe that class sizes do not matter, he and his friends should each be able to keep around 100 children constructively occupied and edified for the one or two days in the British winter when the weather causes problems.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, make sure you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes.
Posts: 742 | From: Abertillery | Registered: May 2011
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Perhaps Michael Gove and his hordes of 'experts' would step in and cover for teachers unable to get to work. Since he appears to believe that class sizes do not matter, he and his friends should each be able to keep around 100 children constructively occupied and edified for the one or two days in the British winter when the weather causes problems.
Yes - great idea - then send in OFSTED
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
In every US state that I have lived in, the schools are required to be open a certain number of days, which means the teachers are required to work. If there are a lot of snow days, the school lets out later in the spring.
So teachers who have booked holidays would have to cancel them?
Yes, of course. If they booked a holiday starting the day after the last scheduled day of the school year, they would have to cancel or reschedule.
Or their weddings? Reschedule?
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
My employer recently shut down for part of a day for snow, but the decision was made at 11 am, when public transit service to that location was shut down. Of course, this meant that anyone who *did* make it to work on transit had to find some other way to get home. So the problem isn't just getting to work or school, it's also getting back later in the day, when there may be more snow and it's getting darker and colder. If it's tough to get child care in the day, imagine trying to arrange for it at night if you end up stuck at your office.
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Sleepwalker
Shipmate
# 15343
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
I imagine that more schools would stay open if teachers didn't get paid for snow days like people in the private sector.
In every US state that I have lived in, the schools are required to be open a certain number of days, which means the teachers are required to work. If there are a lot of snow days, the school lets out later in the spring.
Moo
In theory, that is the case in England as well. Or rather, children are entitled to a certain number of hours of education each year and teachers are required to teach a certain number of hours each year. However, at the school where I was based for a teaching practice, they were in negotiations to adapt the rules to facilitate a week's school closure when the snow overwhelmed the country in 2010.
On the point about 'snow days' and teachers filling in at their local schools, this was tentatively suggested to the profession recently but the unions and teachers protested. I think it's a very sensible. While not ideal over a long period, such an arrangement would facilitate children learning, parents working and schools functioning until the weather returned to normal.
Posts: 267 | From: somewhere other than here | Registered: Dec 2009
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
On the Canadian prairies, the schools are always open, even on days when the school buses do not run. Whether rural or urban. My children were sent home one day in the 17 years (their 12 years of education overlapped) in the afternoon. I drove myself, part way home that day, and then had to park in a snow drift and walk about 3 km (2 miles). The drifts were over the roof when I got home. It was about -35 and very windy. I did have some frostbite on one cheek. But at a no never mind level. I skied to the car in the morning and got it going, and off to work again. We supposed to get 10 cm today and tonight, and had about each of the same the past 3 days.
The recommended travel by car on the highway: always have a large candle, some food, additional warm clothes, a sleeping bag. A candle will raise the inside temp in a car to near freezing even in -30s weather. Also having a neck tube, extra toque, some mittens (not finger gloves), some ski pants (you wear them over your pants, they are insulated and generally nylon), proper winter boots and a scarf.
One thing that interests me is your use of the word "gritter". What is it? Here a grader is a plowing contraption and sand trucks are like 3 or 5 ton dump truck with a sand spreader that twirls and distributes a mix of sand and salt as the truck drives around dumping its load. They vary the mix of salt added with the temp. It doesn't melt anything below a certain temp. I have thought perhaps "gritter" refers to a sand truck. We also see sand trucks with plows on the front of them which clear highways. They generally go about 80 km/hr (50 mph).
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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