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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Right wing people can possibly be Christian?
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christianbuddhist
Apprentice
# 17579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by christianbuddhist:
you cannot be Christian and Tory
And John Wesley.
I'm gonna take some liberties here and speculate that christianbuddhist was referring to the Tory party as it has existed from the Thatcher era onward. He/She can correct me if I'm wrong.
I would have thought that anti-Tory Christians would find as much or more to criticise in the Toryism of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, as or than in the Toryism of the last quarter of the twentieth.
Well, again, not wanting to speak for buddhsitchristian, but...
There is the idea that the older, pre-neolib version of the Conservative Party maintained some ideal of an organic social order, lubricated with a sense of noblesse oblige, and functioning for the benefit of all its citizens.
In the UK, I think this tendency is linked most strongly with Disraeli and, later, MacMillan. In Canada, I can say with some assurance it is linked most strongly with Sir John A. MacDonald and Diefenbaker.
Now yes, there are also things about this old- school Toryism that progressives would despise, for example imperialism. But these were present in the Liberal parties as well(the Canadian Liberals sent us into the Boer War), and so aren't really a distinctive factor of Toryism.
I agree. One-nation Toryism was bad enough, but at least contained some sort of reciprocity and duty of care to the poorest, even if it was patronising and phrased in terms of charity rather than justice. Perhaps the world-view of the One-nation Tory is best encapsulated in the rarely-sung final verse of All Things Bright and Beautiful: "the rich man in his castle / the poor man at his gate ... ".
Modern Thatcherite Conservatism, however, is a very different kettle of (piranha) fish.
Posts: 15 | Registered: Mar 2013
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by PennyS:
As for what I may or may not do with what I've got, beyond paying my taxes, that is not your business, thank you very much.
No, it isn't.
Thanks for proving my point, PennyS. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
That assumes you don't claim enough deductions to avoid paying taxes at all. Then, you are just giving them some of theirs. I hope all the Christian Lefties aren't claiming too many deductions. After all, paying taxes is our bounden duty and service.
Indeed it is. And I don't claim deductions I could for interest and maintenance on the house I let out (and to head that one off, it's not out of choice, it's due to shenanigans on the part of the building society, and I rent the house I live in currently); or deductions for part of my union subscription and membership of my professional body.
[ 09. October 2013, 16:49: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Ah, so paying taxes is a sacrament. And you can't be a Christian if you don't believe in high taxes and pay as high a rate as possible. So, paying taxes must be the fundamental sacrament.
Amazing the things you learn on Ship of Fools. ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
Paying your taxes is required of Christians. I don't see how that equates to thinking they're a sacrament or anything about the level of taxation.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Ah, so paying taxes is a sacrament. And you can't be a Christian if you don't believe in high taxes and pay as high a rate as possible. So, paying taxes must be the fundamental sacrament.
Amazing the things you learn on Ship of Fools.
Where do you deduce that bit of nonsense from anything anyone has said on this thread? I resent paying taxes for things like illegal wars, and although I have never done so I think it would be quite Christian to protest by withholding some of it. But in general, tax is part of our responsibility as members of society. And much as some would like to, it is impossible to opt out of being members of society.
Toryism= individualism = the opposite of Christianity. OK that is a caricature but I've yet to be convinced that individualism (in that sense) is encouraged by the Gospel.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
originally posted by PennyS:
As for what I may or may not do with what I've got, beyond paying my taxes, that is not your business, thank you very much.
No, it isn't.
Thanks for proving my point, PennyS.
Let's imagine I am very, very thick. Your point is? I'm simplistic?
I could, instead, have quoted Matthew 6,4, but that would have said more than I wanted to.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Ah, so paying taxes is a sacrament. And you can't be a Christian if you don't believe in high taxes and pay as high a rate as possible. So, paying taxes must be the fundamental sacrament.
Amazing the things you learn on Ship of Fools.
Where do you deduce that bit of nonsense from anything anyone has said on this thread? I resent paying taxes for things like illegal wars, and although I have never done so I think it would be quite Christian to protest by withholding some of it. But in general, tax is part of our responsibility as members of society. And much as some would like to, it is impossible to opt out of being members of society.
Toryism= individualism = the opposite of Christianity. OK that is a caricature but I've yet to be convinced that individualism (in that sense) is encouraged by the Gospel.
Well, if paying taxes is our bounden, duty, and service (Arethosemyfeet said so) as is the Eucharist, then it must be a sacrament. If we have to pay taxes to be Christians but baptism is optional (leo said that), then paying taxes must be the fundamental sacrament.
Individualism is part of the Gospel. Ultimately, we make the decision to follow Jesus or not. We are responsible for which master we serve. Actually taking the NT as a whole gives a picture of mutual obligation more akin to One Nation Toryism than those who want to blame the rich for every problem society faces. Again, I don't think One Nation Toryism is any more Christian than any other political system in the United States or UK. Furthermore, the NT is about forming intentional communities apart from the larger society for the benefit of the larger society and it is life in those communities the NT writers primarily address. In Acts, the church in Jerusalem forms a community that shares everything in common. Nothing is preventing Christians from forming intentional communities like that. Some are. However, I note that it is in writing to a similar community at Thessaloniki that Paul chastises the idol for being a burden to the larger community. If Christians formed such intentional communities that shared everything in common, the ones providing the most would soon become annoyed with those who contributed nothing. I've seen how protective people can be of their own resources but are willing to be quite generous the other people's money.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
I'm sorry, I'm not up on my secret catholic codewords for the Eucharist. Maybe if you used arguments for the purpose of generating light rather than heat that might be helpful?
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Generating heat instead of light? Here we are on page 5 of a thread charging that right wing people can't be Christians supported by nothing but a smattering of prooftexts coupled with unproven assertions the Gospel is clearly all about Left Wing politics. Again, this statement was far less controversial than Zach82's claim (which has far more support from scripture and tradition) that those who aren't baptized aren't Christians. I'm just taking the argument to its logical conclusion.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I think that might be a wee bit overstated. I would tend to say that right wing values seem to be about less sharing than moderate people. The left has it's own problems, which might be the subject of another thread(?).
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Why do so many posters on this thread ignore the fact that the Gospel is mostly paradox? And that two seemingly opposed things can be true at the same time?
I said 'individualism in that sense' (ie 'I have no responsibility for others') is incompatible with the Gospel. That doesn't deny the truth that we each have to respond to the call, and each of us is a unique incarnation of the divine.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Why do so many posters on this thread ignore the fact that the Gospel is mostly paradox? And that two seemingly opposed things can be true at the same time?
Moreover, what isn't paradox is parable. Those were the days of parable and we have to a great extent lost the ability to understand them. Above all they were subtle, and we are now in a very cut-and-dried era where clarity is prized at the expense of accuracy. I mean that: it is all too easy to make a decision on this side or that of a convenient and perhaps arbitrary line, even though that line might not be in the right place!
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I do beg your pardon Doublethink, I missed your intervention. Hall of False Dichotomies as a paraphrase of Hall of Mirrors. Man of straw.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Dinghy Sailor
Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
... See, if they were sharing the wealth by giving people the money and letting them spend it as they see fit that would be one thing. Taking the money and giving it back to people in the form of those services the State decides they need is something completely different. ...
So you say it's different. So fucking what? Have you heard of the concept of economy of scale?
Have you heard of diseconomies of scale? No? I thought not.
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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Posts: 2821 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
... See, if they were sharing the wealth by giving people the money and letting them spend it as they see fit that would be one thing. Taking the money and giving it back to people in the form of those services the State decides they need is something completely different. ...
So you say it's different. So fucking what? Have you heard of the concept of economy of scale?
Have you heard of diseconomies of scale? No? I thought not.
However, you are not comparing like with like. The economies of scale of say, the NHS, far outweigh both the diseconomy of its size, and the lack of organisation of the individual.
Fuel co-ops can command a far lower price per unit than individual customers can. While not being able to over the very lowest price, an entirely nationalised energy industry will still be able to offer one lower than offered to individuals by several 'competing' suppliers.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Pommie Mick
Shipmate
# 12794
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
quote:
Posted by Pommie Mick
Isn't it obvious that one can be a Christian-Buddhist, but not a Tory Christian?
NO. (Read the thread.) ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
There's a lot of repetition of "Greed is Good" as if this is something from a Conservative Party manifesto or similar, when in fact it comes from a FILM - Wall Street - which was a work of fiction.
I think you missed my sarcasm.
Posts: 185 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Jul 2007
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by christianbuddhist:
you cannot be Christian and Tory
And John Wesley.
I'm gonna take some liberties here and speculate that christianbuddhist was referring to the Tory party as it has existed from the Thatcher era onward. He/She can correct me if I'm wrong.
I would have thought that anti-Tory Christians would find as much or more to criticise in the Toryism of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, as or than in the Toryism of the last quarter of the twentieth.
Well, again, not wanting to speak for buddhsitchristian, but...
There is the idea that the older, pre-neolib version of the Conservative Party maintained some ideal of an organic social order, lubricated with a sense of noblesse oblige, and functioning for the benefit of all its citizens.
Really?
How was concern for the benefit of all “citizens” (which would have been a dangerous word to use in those days) demonstrated by the Tories’ opposition to the French Revolution and its supporters in Britain?
(I realize that it was even more effectively opposed by Burke, so perhaps we could have a thread on whether it was possible to be a Whig and a Christian – it couldn’t be any sillier than this one).
Or by the Tories’ violent counter-measures to popular misery and discontent after the Napoleonic Wars eg Peterloo (“I met murder on the way / He had a face like Castlereagh…”)?
Or by Tory efforts to block the Great Reform Bill of 1832?
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
So you say it's different. So fucking what? Have you heard of the concept of economy of scale?
Have you heard of diseconomies of scale? No? I thought not.
Well of course, and there is a valid argument for small government or local government (coff, devolution, we've had threads on it, it wasn't a left/right issue* and for what it's worth my position is for a fractal pattern).
But so often you see the undertones that's it's not the efficiency of the body doing it that's the problem, it's what it's doing.
*or rather it was, but not in a simple way.
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
FWIW:
1. Harold Macmillan was a radical, with only a generation between him and the croft. His family were in the radical wing of the Liberal party, and moved to the Conservative and Unionist party (its correct title for many years) over Irish Home Rule. For solid evidence of his radicalism, read his book The Middle Way as well as his autobiography, esp volumes 2 and 3. Macmillan was a devout Anglo-Catholic for most of his life.
2. Macmillan married into the Cavendishes. Like the Churchills (and Macmillan was a protege of Winston Churchill) they had been Whigs for a couple of centuries, but again split from the Liberal party over Irish Home Rule.
3. The Tory wing of the Conservative and Unionist party in the postwar years is best exemplified by Eden, Salisbury and Butler. Macleod and Heath were more technocrats in the Pompidou/d"Estaing style.
[ 10. October 2013, 06:51: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by christianbuddhist:
you cannot be Christian and Tory
And John Wesley.
I'm gonna take some liberties here and speculate that christianbuddhist was referring to the Tory party as it has existed from the Thatcher era onward. He/She can correct me if I'm wrong.
I would have thought that anti-Tory Christians would find as much or more to criticise in the Toryism of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, as or than in the Toryism of the last quarter of the twentieth.
Well, again, not wanting to speak for buddhsitchristian, but...
There is the idea that the older, pre-neolib version of the Conservative Party maintained some ideal of an organic social order, lubricated with a sense of noblesse oblige, and functioning for the benefit of all its citizens.
Really?
How was concern for the benefit of all “citizens” (which would have been a dangerous word to use in those days) demonstrated by the Tories’ opposition to the French Revolution and its supporters in Britain?
(I realize that it was even more effectively opposed by Burke, so perhaps we could have a thread on whether it was possible to be a Whig and a Christian – it couldn’t be any sillier than this one).
Or by the Tories’ violent counter-measures to popular misery and discontent after the Napoleonic Wars eg Peterloo (“I met murder on the way / He had a face like Castlereagh…”)?
Or by Tory efforts to block the Great Reform Bill of 1832?
I think if he'd just put "an older" rather than "the older"....
One Nation Conservatism as a distinct philosophical strand post-dates all the examples you cite, having really come to the fore under Disraeli (whose allegorical novel Sybil is the core text) in the 1870s. Consequently, I'm not sure how going back to before that period disproves One Nation Conservatism. The Conservatism you're highlighting there is more properly paleo-conservatism.
Even then though the French Revolution example is pretty easily explainable in One Nation terms - you look across the Channel, see the chaos, and think, it's better for everyone frankly if we keep a lid on it - not that that's why they did it, more that a century later I don't think One Nationers would have done anything different but for different reasons.
Very interesting post 1832 though how an awful lot of the those agitating for the Great Reform Act in Parliament subsequently ended up in the Tory party once it had been passed...
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
If we have to pay taxes to be Christians but baptism is optional (leo said that), then paying taxes must be the fundamental sacrament.
The bit about baptism is somewhat out of context and not a direct quotation.
Paul doesn't say taxes are sacramental but he does commend them quote:
This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
Romans 13
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
You quote Isaiah 5? I suppose you are also a fan of the temperance movement? You do realize God says He will punish both nobles and masses, don't you? Sorry, leo, sound exegesis is really important to me.
In which case you'd have read Isa 5:11 more carefully - nothing about teetotalism but about more about alcoholism or drunkenness- people getting up first thing in the morning to have a drink and then continuing all day until bedtime.
I like my drink but not to that extent.
[ 10. October 2013, 14:39: Message edited by: leo ]
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
If we have to pay taxes to be Christians but baptism is optional (leo said that), then paying taxes must be the fundamental sacrament.
The bit about baptism is somewhat out of context and not a direct quotation.
Paul doesn't say taxes are sacramental but he does commend them quote:
This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
Romans 13
Take what you said on the Church thread with what you said on this thread and you clearly get baptism is optional. Yes, Paul commends taxes. He also commends paying your debts in the portion you didn't quote: the death death penalty. Paul supports nothing close to Left Wing politics.
quote:
originally posted by Leo:
The Jubilee was to STOP people accumulating vast amounts of land. The law was promulgated after every tribe was given EQUAL amounts of land.,
Yes, after the tribes were given equal amounts of the Canaanite land, they divided it. It is too late to do that in the UK. In the US, we could probably distribute land. One Republican congressman called for a New Homestead Act. See Marvin's post of why the Jubilee concept is bat shit crazy.
quote:
originally posted by Leo:
In which case you'd have read Isa 5:11 more carefully - nothing about teetotalism but about more about alcoholism or drunkenness- people getting up first thing in the morning to have a drink and then continuing all day until bedtime.
The temperance movement wanted alcohol prohibited because of the societal problems associated with drunkenness. Problems they saw as afflicting the working classes more than the rich. Isaiah pronounces God's judgment on the whole nation both rich and poor.
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
I think if he'd just put "an older" rather than "the older"....
Yes. And, to refer back to what I actually wrote...
quote:
There is the idea that the older, pre-neolib version of the Conservative Party maintained some ideal of an organic social order, lubricated with a sense of noblesse oblige, and functioning for the benefit of all its citizens.
So, I was describing an idea that some people have, which is not neccessarily my own.
Personally, I've always been a bit skeptical of the way in which some progressives lionize previous generations of Conservatives, as a supposed contrast to the current neo-liberal ones.
Of course I can see a difference between, say, MacDonald and Harper(to go back to Canadian examples), but I find that the sentimental revisionism tends to gloss over the more unsavoury aspects of old-school Toryism. At the end of the day, even when they promoted projects that benefitted the public welfare, they were always basically looking after the interests of business, or at least certain sections of it.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
they were always basically looking after the interests of business, or at least certain sections of it.
I've heard this as the basic foundations of our English speaking democracies. Which might well mean that all of them are founded on pseudo-Christianity, foundations of moral sand.
The appeal of mid-20th century social gospel has much appeal to those of raised with it. In Canada, get rid of profit taking out-of-province corporations, provide more comprehensive services based on government-public owned and Crown corporations, e.g., telephone system, natural gas, electricity, water, oil, insurance (auto, personal, property), some mining and forestry, health. They were able to redirect profits toward underserved people and areas of the country, reduce prices and improve efficiencies. The very opposite that the right wing suggests government management does.
The explicit tying of Christian values to the political and economic policies was so obvious that we didn't really discuss alternatives. We knew in actual figures that we paid less for everything, except taxes, which were the great equalizer. But the combined tax burden plus basic costs of living for essential services were shown to be always cheaper in total or very close to the cheapest.
How the right managed to represent this as both wrong and inefficient, and that God wants the inequalities to be increased is one of the most amazing spin jobs ever seen by this western Canadian. We went from the baptist minister Tommy Douglas, premier of Saskatchewan, talking about "building Jerusalem in this fair land", and helping "the little guy", to this all being considered anti-Christian is one of awe and amazement. We took equality and community together as part of the Christian equation, whereas now, inequality and separation, individualism, have now been branded as Christian.
Perhaps as some of you have posted, that Christianity cannot be captured by any stripe, and that the individual consequences of the political economy are irrelevant to salvation and the Godly direction of a people. But, I have to say, we thought we were supposed to be our brothers' and sisters' keeper. They drummed it into us at school and church, and we listened and it was enscribed on our hearts: that we should share, not be greedy, and that we were responsible for both ourselves and to others. With the denial of something, like heat and light, medicine and shelter because of economic circumstances being an evil. Those principles built Saskatchewan, the province of my birth. And heavily influenced federal politics and the social fabric of Canada.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Africa in particular needs that cheiropteran faeces insanity.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
the Jubilee concept is bat shit crazy.
OK - let us dump Holy Scripture as being 'bat shit crazy'. What authority shall we look to instead? My subjective judgement? Yours?
Are we looking to scripture for how to govern a country? Like I've said, the Christian Reconstructionists are the only ones arguing we truly do this. I called their ideas bat shit crazy as well. You would object to almost all of what they propose and every last bit of it has scriptural support. You are only interested in scripture as an authority when it supports your own political opinions and more than happy to ignore or rationalize it away when it does not.
quote:
originally posted by Martin PC no & Ship's Biohazard:
Africa in particular needs that cheiropteran faeces insanity.
When I think Kingdom of Heaven, Mugabe's Zimbabwe always pops into my head.
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
When I say the Our Father, I'm praying to God not the government or political activists. My faith is in God to bring God's kingdom to earth. I don't trust the latter to even know what that would look like.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
So do you omit 'thy kingdon come, thy will be done on earth...'?
I understand that a fairly major element of the Kingdom of God will be constant praise and worship offered by the people towards God. Should we therefore attempt to pass a law making constant worship of God compulsary for all citizens, whether they want to do so or not, as a way of bringing the Kingdom to earth?
If not, then what's the difference between that and passing a law making giving to the poor compulsary for all citizens, whether they want to or not?
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Hail Gallaxhar
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
The role I play is in how I live my day to day life where I am not in trying to impose some vision of the Kingdom of Heaven by legislation. I have my own political opinions that aren't represented entirely by any political party in the United States. In the voting booth, I try to pick the candidates that align as closely to those beliefs as possible. Now, if the US was governed exactly how I think it should be, would that be heaven come to earth? Not even close. Those doing the governing will still be human. Humans are prone to corruption. Any radical change from the status quo will only bring another set of problems (Won't Get Fooled Again).
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
And you have no role in what you pray for? Is not the Church a 'sign' of the kingdom?
Church, yes. Government, no. Unless you want a theocracy of course.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
When I say the Our Father, I'm praying to God not the government or political activists. My faith is in God to bring God's kingdom to earth. I don't trust the latter to even know what that would look like.
and when you pray 'forgive us our debts as we forgive those indebted to us' - is that not a condition on you/me/us? Does it not relate to the law of jubilee? To the cancellation of 3rd world debt? To the paying of decent wages.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
So do you omit 'thy kingdon come, thy will be done on earth...'?
I understand that a fairly major element of the Kingdom of God will be constant praise and worship offered by the people towards God. Should we therefore attempt to pass a law making constant worship of God compulsary for all citizens, whether they want to do so or not, as a way of bringing the Kingdom to earth?
If not, then what's the difference between that and passing a law making giving to the poor compulsary for all citizens, whether they want to or not?
Everlasting worship seems a bit pious to me until, i remember that worship is supposed to outflow in lives of justice. The supreme act of worship, the eucharist, involves the taking of matter, God's gift, plus what human labour has transformed it into and then sharing it.
As for whether or not people want to give to the poor, this is a matter of justice. Wealth tends to be built on exploitation - paying poor wages and accruing vast profits. So it isn't giving, it is returning to the people one stole it from in the first place.
The 'kingdom' of God, as i understand it, is summarised in the following: quote:
When we pray, "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth," we are praying for the abolition of individualism and the coming of the higher individuality through collective action as members of God's Home on earth.
Kirby Page
quote:
to the rich members of your congregations, the great subscribers of your salaries O preachers! who turn up at your church or chapel service and follow you in praying, “Thy kingdom come; Thy will be done, as in heaven, so upon the earth.” Can they, do you think, believe that there is anything in heaven corresponding to the wretched slum-dwellers of Whitechapel or Spitalfields? Are there any in heaven corresponding to these Christian rent-takers, who wax fat at the expense of the downtrodden? What are you ministers and plutocratic members of the rich churches and chapels doing to make earth like heaven? Why, it would need an entire change in the basis of society, and the means whereby incomes are obtained. Are these religious plutocrats and preachers trying to change the basis of society, so that better conditions shall prevail? Assuredly not. On the contrary, they are determined opponents of those who do try to make such changes
T Mann.
quote:
Thy Kingdom come, O God
Thy reign on earth begin
Break with thine iron rod
The tyrannies of sin. is primarily a call for the coming of the Kingdom, and a new world of "peace, and purity, and love," when "war shall be no more," nor "lust, oppression, crime.
Fr. Benson SSJE
[ 11. October 2013, 15:06: Message edited by: leo ]
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
and when you pray 'forgive us our debts as we forgive those indebted to us' - is that not a condition on you/me/us? Does it not relate to the law of jubilee? To the cancellation of 3rd world debt? To the paying of decent wages.
Who prays that? The only versions I've ever found in a liturgy say either "trespasses" or "sins".
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Hail Gallaxhar
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Everlasting worship seems a bit pious to me until, i remember that worship is supposed to outflow in lives of justice. The supreme act of worship, the eucharist, involves the taking of matter, God's gift, plus what human labour has transformed it into and then sharing it.
You're avoiding the question.
quote:
As for whether or not people want to give to the poor, this is a matter of justice. Wealth tends to be built on exploitation - paying poor wages and accruing vast profits. So it isn't giving, it is returning to the people one stole it from in the first place.
Not only is that bollocks, it's irrelevant to the point I was making.
quote:
The 'kingdom' of God, as i understand it, is summarised in the following: quote:
When we pray, "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth," we are praying for the abolition of individualism and the coming of the higher individuality through collective action as members of God's Home on earth.
Kirby Page
The Kingdom of God consists of a bunch of bland, conformist drones following only the will of the collective? Fuck that.
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Hail Gallaxhar
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Everlasting worship seems a bit pious to me until, i remember that worship is supposed to outflow in lives of justice. The supreme act of worship, the eucharist, involves the taking of matter, God's gift, plus what human labour has transformed it into and then sharing it.
You're avoiding the question.
I am not sure that you understand the sacramental theology
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
and when you pray 'forgive us our debts as we forgive those indebted to us' - is that not a condition on you/me/us? Does it not relate to the law of jubilee? To the cancellation of 3rd world debt? To the paying of decent wages.
Who prays that? The only versions I've ever found in a liturgy say either "trespasses" or "sins".
οπηειλεμα = 1) that which is owed 1a) that which is justly or legally due, a debt (Strongs)Matthew 6:12
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
When I say the Our Father, I'm praying to God not the government or political activists. My faith is in God to bring God's kingdom to earth. I don't trust the latter to even know what that would look like.
and when you pray 'forgive us our debts as we forgive those indebted to us' - is that not a condition on you/me/us? Does it not relate to the law of jubilee? To the cancellation of 3rd world debt? To the paying of decent wages.
No
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Everlasting worship seems a bit pious to me until, i remember that worship is supposed to outflow in lives of justice. The supreme act of worship, the eucharist, involves the taking of matter, God's gift, plus what human labour has transformed it into and then sharing it.
You're avoiding the question.
I am not sure that you understand the sacramental theology
I have the same concerns about you.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
You are sure about what you deny but seemingly unable to give reasons.
As to your earlier thing about not using the bible to govern a nation - of course, now that we live in a multi-cultural and secular society, post-Christian, then Christians are one of a variety of voices. So it is important that we base our voice on Christian/biblical principles.
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Presumably therefore you would be happy for those Christians who think that SSM and abortion are sins to advance their version of a Biblical agenda? quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
and when you pray 'forgive us our debts as we forgive those indebted to us' - is that not a condition on you/me/us? Does it not relate to the law of jubilee? To the cancellation of 3rd world debt? To the paying of decent wages.
Who prays that? The only versions I've ever found in a liturgy say either "trespasses" or "sins".
οπηειλεμα = 1) that which is owed 1a) that which is justly or legally due, a debt (Strongs)Matthew 6:12
Your materialistic as opposed to spiritual interpretation is pretty much on all fours with that of the Word of Faith Movement; IIRC this was used as justification for Kenneth and Gloria Copeland that debt is a curse and no believer should have a mortgage (see for example The Believer's Voice of Victory). You happy to be in bed with such characters?
[ 11. October 2013, 15:44: Message edited by: Matt Black ]
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
You are sure about what you deny but seemingly unable to give reasons.
As to your earlier thing about not using the bible to govern a nation - of course, now that we live in a multi-cultural and secular society, post-Christian, then Christians are one of a variety of voices. So it is important that we base our voice on Christian/biblical principles.
The Christian Reconstructionists base their voice on Christian/biblical principles. Their voice repeats more of the Bible and in context than yours. The Christian Right that would have nothing to do with Christian Reconstructionists want to base their voice on Christian/biblical principles as well. Left wingers usually scream separation of church and state when they do. One lady coined the term Dominionist to link them with the more extreme proponents of Christian Dominionism.
What you say sounds like Left Wing Christian Dominionism!
I'm against Dominionism.
Being an Anglican, I interpret scripture using tradition and reason. Trespasses and sin has been the way the Church translated the Our Father for centuries. Translation is interpretation. As for reason, if debt is about money, please put a monetary amount on how much money each of us owes God.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Presumably therefore you would be happy for those Christians who think that SSM and abortion are sins to advance their version of a Biblical agenda? quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
and when you pray 'forgive us our debts as we forgive those indebted to us' - is that not a condition on you/me/us? Does it not relate to the law of jubilee? To the cancellation of 3rd world debt? To the paying of decent wages.
Who prays that? The only versions I've ever found in a liturgy say either "trespasses" or "sins".
οπηειλεμα = 1) that which is owed 1a) that which is justly or legally due, a debt (Strongs)Matthew 6:12
Your materialistic as opposed to spiritual interpretation is pretty much on all fours with that of the Word of Faith Movement; IIRC this was used as justification for Kenneth and Gloria Copeland that debt is a curse and no believer should have a mortgage (see for example The Believer's Voice of Victory). You happy to be in bed with such characters?
In college, I read my share of liberation theology. Now, my mother bought the Word of Faith Movement hook, line, and sinker. At some point, the realization hit me that the Prosperity Gospel was just the conservative version of Liberation Theology. Since E.W. Kenyon preceded Gustavo Gutierrez by several decades, liberation theology might be properly called the liberal version of the Word Faith Movement.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Spot on.
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
Debt/Debtors is the translation traditionally used in the Church of Scotland.
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