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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Pacifism
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
No, they would be following the way of Christ to do what Corrie Ten Boom and others in Nazi occupied Europe did - hide Jews and help them escape.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
But they didn't did they!!!
There were 6 million failures of this 'Christlike' attitude to the death camps.
I wonder how many British Jews would have had to die to allow the self-indulgence of pacisism to tell the the world how wonderful they were at hiding a couple of hundred Jews behind their wardrobes.
Let me remind you that a couple of years of hiding a few Dutch families behind a wardrobe is one thing. Hiding every single British Jew for the entire time - maybe a generation - that the Nazis ruled Britain unopposed, is another.
Oh and 13m died in death camps, not 6m - not sure why only the Jewish victims matter to you here.
Also, why the assumption that pacifism = the Nazis ruling Britain unopposed? Pacifism doesn't mean a lack of opposition, and it's not like we know that the Nazis would have lasted in Britain anyway...? Forgot that you were omniscient ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
[Code fix
-Gwai]
[ 11. November 2013, 20:45: Message edited by: Gwai ]
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Pacifism is, in my opinion, a very selfish attitude to take. It simply means 'I don't care what threatens you, I will not lift a finger to defend you,'
Dude, do you even read your Bible?
I believe he does, but either it isn't the same as mine or he reads it with one eye shut.
Or he reads the whole thing
Is your copy missing the Sermon on the Mount?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
My phrase 'self-indulgent pacifism' simply means a holding onto one's pacifist views regardless of the consequences for others. If my pacifism allows the potential for others to be harmed simply to maintain my high-minded views, then it is self-indulgence.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
My phrase 'self-indulgent pacifism' simply means a holding onto one's pacifist views regardless of the consequences for others. If my pacifism allows the potential for others to be harmed simply to maintain my high-minded views, then it is self-indulgence.
But I would have thought that many pacifists are only too aware of the consequence for others, if they kill someone. That person is dead, and I have done it, and their family mourn, and are scarred by it. And probably that person's comrades will want revenge, and will seek out others to kill, and so on, for ever.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Oh and 13m died in death camps, not 6m - not sure why only the Jewish victims matter to you here.
Well, some of those 13m were gay, you can't expect Mudfrog to count them.
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Oh and 13m died in death camps, not 6m - not sure why only the Jewish victims matter to you here.
Also, why the assumption that pacifism = the Nazis ruling Britain unopposed? Pacifism doesn't mean a lack of opposition, and it's not like we know that the Nazis would have lasted in Britain anyway...? Forgot that you were omniscient
[Code fix
-Gwai]
Yes, my 6 million did include the non-Jews who were gassed - homosexuals, the disabled and the Gypsies. I didn't realise it was 13 million. Kind of strengthens my argument really. The pacifist resistance in Germany, Poland, France, Holland, Norway, Czechoslovakia, etc, etc, etc didn't do much to save the 13 million did it?
Also, mentioning those countries, why do you believe that the UK would have succeeded better in resisting the Nazis than all the other countries that Germany marched into? What makes you think that our opposition would be more powerful than that of France? Don't forget we didn't succumb, even without being invaded, because of the US. Had we merely allowed Germany to invade and then tried to resist from the inside, like the French, we would have lasted 5 minutes.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
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Posted
Come on mudfrog, answer my question, do you think jesus would have killed another to save a third? And if so why? You can't just keep saying the same thing over and over again without addressing the difficult questions.
I think the answer is that he would not have done. Faced with the woman caught in adultery he didn't wade in and kill or injure anyone but he did defend her. Putting himself in harm's way he prevented her lynching without using violence.
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My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Oh and 13m died in death camps, not 6m - not sure why only the Jewish victims matter to you here.
Well, some of those 13m were gay, you can't expect Mudfrog to count them.
I have always counted them. I resent your implicit accusation of homophobia. Read my posts on the other thread too.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
Come on mudfrog, answer my question, do you think jesus would have killed another to save a third? And if so why? You can't just keep saying the same thing over and over again without addressing the difficult questions.
I think the answer is that he would not have done. Faced with the woman caught in adultery he didn't wade in and kill or injure anyone but he did defend her. Putting himself in harm's way he prevented her lynching without using violence.
Well, that is the answer to Mudfrog's cynical 'pacifists just let them get on with it', as if that is the only alternative to violence. I don't think it is, and it's just possible that Jesus outlined some other ways and means and attitudes.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
My phrase 'self-indulgent pacifism' simply means a holding onto one's pacifist views regardless of the consequences for others. If my pacifism allows the potential for others to be harmed simply to maintain my high-minded views, then it is self-indulgence.
I'm bemused by this, or is one person's "high-minded views" another's "obeying the commandments"?
Would you steal food to give to a hungry person?
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Forward the New Republic
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
My phrase 'self-indulgent pacifism' simply means a holding onto one's pacifist views regardless of the consequences for others. If my pacifism allows the potential for others to be harmed simply to maintain my high-minded views, then it is self-indulgence.
So stop labelling all pacifism as self-indulgent then, when by your own admission not all is the same. And I would distinguish between self-indulgent anti-war feelings, and the general pacifist peace-seeking life Jesus commands His followers to lead. Pacifism is seeking peace and justice in all areas and not just being opposed to war. Re WWII, many many pacifists were still part of the war effort but in a non-combatant role eg ambulance drivers - do you consider that to be wrong? That would have been my position, I think (although it is obviously impossible to know for certain).
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
Come on mudfrog, answer my question, do you think jesus would have killed another to save a third? And if so why? You can't just keep saying the same thing over and over again without addressing the difficult questions.
I think the answer is that he would not have done. Faced with the woman caught in adultery he didn't wade in and kill or injure anyone but he did defend her. Putting himself in harm's way he prevented her lynching without using violence.
He acted promptly too. Had Britain, France and a few other countries got their act together earlier they wouldn't have been confronted by the 'Massed armies of the Third Reich' as these were pretty puny until the very late 'thirties. Action against Hitler when Germany's armed forces entered the Rhineland in 1936 would very probably been successful and Hitler might have been toppled. Unfortunately, France was in a mess and Britain didn't think it significant.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
Come on mudfrog, answer my question, do you think jesus would have killed another to save a third? And if so why? You can't just keep saying the same thing over and over again without addressing the difficult questions.
I think the answer is that he would not have done. Faced with the woman caught in adultery he didn't wade in and kill or injure anyone but he did defend her. Putting himself in harm's way he prevented her lynching without using violence.
What an odd example - especially when Jesus agreed that what the men were doing was lawful: the woman was guilty, the men were legally within their rights to stone her to death. What Jesus confronted them with was their own lack of moral right to carry out the prescribed Mosaic sentence.
You can't be saying that Hitler was within his right to invade Britain and exterminate our Jews and other minorities, but that Jesus would have confronted him with his own hypocrisy as a way of diffusing his warlike intentions.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
My phrase 'self-indulgent pacifism' simply means a holding onto one's pacifist views regardless of the consequences for others. If my pacifism allows the potential for others to be harmed simply to maintain my high-minded views, then it is self-indulgence.
So stop labelling all pacifism as self-indulgent then, when by your own admission not all is the same. And I would distinguish between self-indulgent anti-war feelings, and the general pacifist peace-seeking life Jesus commands His followers to lead. Pacifism is seeking peace and justice in all areas and not just being opposed to war. Re WWII, many many pacifists were still part of the war effort but in a non-combatant role eg ambulance drivers - do you consider that to be wrong? That would have been my position, I think (although it is obviously impossible to know for certain).
How can a pacifist be part of the war effort? Surely, by being part of the war effort - carrying out ambulance duties, or bomb disposal, you are actually facilitating the main purpose of the military which is to be as efficient as possible in their combat role.
Surely a true pacifist would want nothing whatever to do with the logistics of the war effort.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The pacifist resistance in Germany, Poland, France, Holland, Norway, Czechoslovakia, etc, etc, etc didn't do much to save the 13 million did it?
And what about the rest of the sixty million who died in world war 2? What did war do for them?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Surely a true pacifist would want nothing whatever to do with the logistics of the war effort.
So not only do you have no idea what an actual pacifist believes, you get to tell us what a made-up pacifist believes.
Look up the True Scotsman fallacy, and get back to us.
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Forward the New Republic
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
Come on mudfrog, answer my question, do you think jesus would have killed another to save a third? And if so why? You can't just keep saying the same thing over and over again without addressing the difficult questions.
I think the answer is that he would not have done. Faced with the woman caught in adultery he didn't wade in and kill or injure anyone but he did defend her. Putting himself in harm's way he prevented her lynching without using violence.
He acted promptly too. Had Britain, France and a few other countries got their act together earlier they wouldn't have been confronted by the 'Massed armies of the Third Reich' as these were pretty puny until the very late 'thirties. Action against Hitler when Germany's armed forces entered the Rhineland in 1936 would very probably been successful and Hitler might have been toppled. Unfortunately, France was in a mess and Britain didn't think it significant.
And wasn't Chamberlain trying to negotiate with Hitler and trying to avoid conflict?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
Well whatever he would have done I don't think he would have killed anyone. What do you think he would have done? Are you going to answer my question or not?!
I suppose non-pacifist Christians will say that probably Jesus would not have killed someone, but they are sinners, who are not as saintly as him, and therefore they will. Is that right?
Or maybe that Jesus would kill someone? Dunno.
Or maybe they won't answer!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
I think it would be fair to say that the Second World War would not have been a great time to decide you were a pacifist. We have the misfortune of living in the shadow of what is possibly the only major war in European history which provides an argument against pacifism.
But what about the First World War? Would life under the Kaiser have been so dreadful? (It's a genuine, not a rhetorical, question - I don't know much about him, except that if memory serves he was actually commander-in-chief of a British regiment for a time, being as he was the King's cousin.) What about the Boer War, or the Franco-Prussian? What about the English Civil War? Would it have been morally praiseworthy to say "I will not take life; but short of taking life I will do my utmost to resist the evils of this war?" I think it might have been.
And what about not becoming a member of an armed resistance when your country (a country with a thousand-year history) is invaded by despised militaristic foreigners, who aren't averse to occasional genocide? Because that's the position the Son of God found himself in.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
Come on mudfrog, answer my question, do you think jesus would have killed another to save a third? And if so why? You can't just keep saying the same thing over and over again without addressing the difficult questions.
I think the answer is that he would not have done. Faced with the woman caught in adultery he didn't wade in and kill or injure anyone but he did defend her. Putting himself in harm's way he prevented her lynching without using violence.
He acted promptly too. Had Britain, France and a few other countries got their act together earlier they wouldn't have been confronted by the 'Massed armies of the Third Reich' as these were pretty puny until the very late 'thirties. Action against Hitler when Germany's armed forces entered the Rhineland in 1936 would very probably been successful and Hitler might have been toppled. Unfortunately, France was in a mess and Britain didn't think it significant.
And wasn't Chamberlain trying to negotiate with Hitler and trying to avoid conflict?
IIRC that was two years later, after the remilitarization of the Rhineland, occupying the Saarland, two years further military build-up and the Anschluss. Different circumstances entirely.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Mudfrog.
Your pacifism is a complete straw man. Has nothing to do with the heroism of non-violent civil disobedience in Nazi occupied Denmark from the Royal Family on down. In the Raj. In Montgomery Alabama.
For the second time I had to censor myself there.
How long are we, the church, going to keep gutlessly denying Christ?
Therefore I call you to Hell Mudfrog.
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Love wins
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Well, maybe some Christians would argue that the Jews should have take up arms against the Romans. It's not a ludicrous suggestion, and we know from recent history that it can bear fruit. But ...
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Mudfrog.
Your pacifism is a complete straw man. Has nothing to do with the heroism of non-violent civil disobedience in Nazi occupied Denmark from the Royal Family on down. In the Raj. In Montgomery Alabama.
For the second time I had to censor myself there.
How long are we, the church, going to keep gutlessly denying Christ?
Therefore I call you to Hell Mudfrog.
Yawn. I think I'm rather busy. Enjoy your rant.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
There was a word for that from warmongers to COs Mudfrog.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
And wasn't Chamberlain trying to negotiate with Hitler and trying to avoid conflict?
Indeed he was . He failed, and as a result history cruelly cast him as a whimp ever since.
Some say Chamberlain was buying time to re-arm after pacifists had rendered the country incapable of fighting another war.
After the ill-fated "I have in my hand a piece of paper" speech , and the subsequent declaration of war Chamberlain ,(less famously) , stated that Nazism would be fought until it had been 'completely destroyed' .
As most of us know it was Churchill who took the credit for winning the war.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
My phrase 'self-indulgent pacifism' simply means a holding onto one's pacifist views regardless of the consequences for others. If my pacifism allows the potential for others to be harmed simply to maintain my high-minded views, then it is self-indulgence.
So stop labelling all pacifism as self-indulgent then, when by your own admission not all is the same. And I would distinguish between self-indulgent anti-war feelings, and the general pacifist peace-seeking life Jesus commands His followers to lead. Pacifism is seeking peace and justice in all areas and not just being opposed to war. Re WWII, many many pacifists were still part of the war effort but in a non-combatant role eg ambulance drivers - do you consider that to be wrong? That would have been my position, I think (although it is obviously impossible to know for certain).
How can a pacifist be part of the war effort? Surely, by being part of the war effort - carrying out ambulance duties, or bomb disposal, you are actually facilitating the main purpose of the military which is to be as efficient as possible in their combat role.
Surely a true pacifist would want nothing whatever to do with the logistics of the war effort.
As a non-pacifist, you have no right to decide what a 'true pacifist' is and isn't. Different pacifists have different views. For me (and I realise that as a woman things would have been different for me in WWII anyway) it is a refusal to bear arms. Carrying out ambulance duties (for example) is helping people and not harming them, which is what I object to. Other pacifists would refuse to be part of the war effort entirely. This is what actually happened in WWII - different COs held different positions, but they were all pacifists.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
And as I should have explicitly said as you seem to be so strangely ignorant of its commanding relevance, the elephant in the room as Adeodatus reminds us Mudfrog, the matchless, peerless example of Jesus.
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Love wins
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Pacifism is, in my opinion, a very selfish attitude to take. It simply means 'I don't care what threatens you, I will not lift a finger to defend you,'
Dude, do you even read your Bible?
I believe he does, but either it isn't the same as mine or he reads it with one eye shut.
Or he reads the whole thing
Is your copy missing the Sermon on the Mount?
Does yours only contain the Sermon on the Mount? Mine has Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Joshua, Judges...and numerous other books describing violence done by God or done at God's command. Jesus description of judgment wasn't exactly nonviolent either.
I don't proof-text. I interpret scripture based on the entirety of scripture not just the few verses that support my opinion. Pacifists can be Christians. However, the Bible taken as a whole does not teach anything close to Pacifism.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
I interpret scripture based on the entirety of scripture not just the few verses that support my opinion. Pacifists can be Christians. However, the Bible taken as a whole does not teach anything close to Pacifism.
I interpret scripture through the life of Jesus. For the first couple of hundred years, all Christians were pacifists, and therefore conclude you are wrong.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
A pacifist centurion must have had a lot to think about, then.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
A pacifist centurion must have had a lot to think about, then.
Yes. I imagine he probably did.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Sometimes a violent reaction in self-defence is the only way to defeat evil.
I know I'm responding to this very late, but the sentence struck me. It is a description of thinking that is the very antithesis of what Christianity is and something that struck me in relation to the far east. Hinduism for instance, will claim that evil must be employed to defeat evil. Reading early Christian writers, many of them write, or were recorded as noting that paganism held to a similar belief of fighting fire with fire.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
There were 6 million failures of this 'Christlike' attitude to the death camps.
The irony of this was just too great not to post. This news just in from Mudfrog: Christ's death - a failure.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
A pacifist centurion must have had a lot to think about, then.
Yes. I imagine he probably did.
Thinking about this over the washing up. A young Wehrmacht officer on occupation duty in a small provincial town, a resentful populace, small acts of daily defiance against the invaders, flicked Vs behind his back, steps into a church and encounters the risen Christ in the stained glass behind the altar.
He walks out, a new creation, and still part of the occupying army. Yes, I imagine that would be very hard indeed.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
A pacifist centurion must have had a lot to think about, then.
Yes. I imagine he probably did.
Thinking about this over the washing up. A young Wehrmacht officer on occupation duty in a small provincial town, a resentful populace, small acts of daily defiance against the invaders, flicked Vs behind his back, steps into a church and encounters the risen Christ in the stained glass behind the altar.
He walks out, a new creation, and still part of the occupying army. Yes, I imagine that would be very hard indeed.
A poignant image. Yes, it would be hard, and he probably wouldn't know what to do. I guess he would place his trust in the risen Christ. That is scary, isn't it?
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Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
While you're imagining things, I by no means believe all wars are moral, and I greatly admire those who suffer much for refusing to fight unjust wars.
I just don't see a command to absolute pacifism in the Bible. If the commandment to pacifism is absolute and literal, then it is a sin for a women to fight back if she is being raped. It is a sin for police officers to forcibly detain violent criminals. I just don't believe that.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
I think Adeodatus and Zach have it right. There are times for being a pacifist, and times when the result of pacifism are worse than non pacifism.
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Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Josquin
Apprentice
# 8834
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Posted
Fascism had to be stopped - nothing at all to do with religion.
How do you reconcile Christianity with killing an enemy soldier?
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
A pacifist centurion must have had a lot to think about, then.
Yes. I imagine he probably did.
Thinking about this over the washing up. A young Wehrmacht officer on occupation duty in a small provincial town, a resentful populace, small acts of daily defiance against the invaders, flicked Vs behind his back, steps into a church and encounters the risen Christ in the stained glass behind the altar.
He walks out, a new creation, and still part of the occupying army. Yes, I imagine that would be very hard indeed.
You assume he becomes a Pacifist? I wouldn't. Maybe, he defects and joins the opposition. Maybe, he becomes a spy. Maybe, he is a pragmatist.
That's the problem with doing theology based on hypotheticals. You may believe Jesus wouldn't have used violence to save a life but we have no example in scripture of Jesus using or not using violence to save the life of a third party. The key is using violence to save a third party. Jesus didn't save His own life using violence but the only way Jesus could have saved His life was to change His message. Violence against the Romans would have accomplished nothing.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
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Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Jesus wasn't a fan of cutting off ears with swords, though. Just worth noting.
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Also, if you want to see what pacifist resistance in World War II could do, best place to look is probably Denmark. From what I've read, I think that country drove the Germans absolutely nuts.
And of course their greatest exploit was in getting most of the Danish Jews safely away to freedom in a vast, co-ordinated operation. As I understand it, there is still a special relationship between the nations of Denmark and Israel because the Israelis recognise what a remarkable thing this was.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Jesus wasn't a fan of cutting off ears with swords, though. Just worth noting.
He did command the disciples to buy swords just before that.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Jesus wasn't a fan of cutting off ears with swords, though. Just worth noting.
He did command the disciples to buy swords just before that.
Damned inconsistent, that man. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
Um, Orefeo, there was plenty of very violent resistance in Denmark. Sabotauge, assasinations, you name it.
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Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
Um, Orefeo, there was plenty of very violent resistance in Denmark. Sabotauge, assasinations, you name it.
There certainly was some, yes. But there was ALSO a great deal more non-violent resistance than in many other places.
The Wikipedia article on Danish resistance interestingly divides the war into 2 periods: non-violent resistance up until 1943, and violent from 1943. I doubt that it's so neat, but I would expect the change from allowing the Danish government to officially remain in power to a complete takeover was a factor. The rescue of the Jews, though, came a bit after that point.
And even for those relatively few Jews that were captured, the Danes continued working to keep them alive. Wikipedia says that less than 1% of Danish Jews died. Do you not think that's remarkable, in a country occupied by the Nazis for 5 years?
What's fairly clear is that a lot of Danes did quite a bit to frustrate and undermine the Nazis in non-violent ways. That some Danes used violent means doesn't undermine my point.
[ 12. November 2013, 01:28: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
Mudfrog seems intent on confusing pacifism with passivity. Walter Wink argues that passivity is completely unethical, for precisely the reasons Mudfrog raises-- the most cowardly of choices. But of course Wink goes on to a very substantial biblical argument in favor of pacifism.
On the issue of pacifism in WW2, Wink says:
quote:
The brutalities of the Nazis stand for many people as the ultimate refutation of nonviolence. Surely, they reason, only violence could have stopped Hitler. The facts indicate just the opposite. Nonviolence did work whenever it was tried against the Nazis. Bulgaria's Orthodox Bishop Kiril told Nazi authorities that if they attempted to deport Bulgarian Jews to concentration camps, he himself would lead a campaign of civil disobedience, lying down on the railroad tracks in front of the trains... [further examples from Bulgaria]... Ron Sider and Richard K. Taylor comment, "Because of these and other nonmilitary measures, all of Bulgaria's Jewish citizens were saved from the Nazi death camps."
Finland saved all but six of its Jewish citizens from death camps through nonmilitary means. Of 7,000 Danish Jews, 6,500 escaped to Sweden, aided by virtually the whole population and tips from within the German occupation force itself. Almost all the rest were hidden safely for the balance of the war. Denmark's resistance was so effective that Adolf Eichmann had to admit that the action against the Jews of Denmark had been a failure.
The Norwegian underground helped spirit 900 Jews to safety in Sweden, but another 756 were killed, all but 20 in Nazi death camps. German wives of Jes demonstrated in Berlin on behalf of their husbands in the midst of the war, and secured their release for the duration. In Italy, a large percentage of Jews survived because officials and citizens sabotaged efforts to hand them over to the Germans.
During the Nazi occupation of Holland, a general strike by all rail workers paralyzed traffic from Nov. 1944 until liberation in May 1945-- this despite extreme privation to the people, who held out all winter without heat and with dwindling food supplies...
The tragedy is that even though nonviolence did work when used against the Nazis, it was used too seldom.
To Wink's lengthy list of examples, I would add the community of LeChambon.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Until liberation in 1945?
Who did this liberating?
How did they do it exactly?
Wink gives examples of nonviolent partisan resistance during World War II. The Nazi's couldn't devote their full attention to cracking down on local resistance because they were busy fighting a war. The best you can say is that some of the ways partisans in occupied Nazi territory aided the Allied war effort were nonviolent. I'd say that was hardly a ringing endorsement for Pacifism.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Until liberation in 1945?
Who did this liberating?
How did they do it exactly?
Wink gives examples of nonviolent partisan resistance during World War II. The Nazi's couldn't devote their full attention to cracking down on local resistance because they were busy fighting a war. The best you can say is that some of the ways partisans in occupied Nazi territory aided the Allied war effort were nonviolent. I'd say that was hardly a ringing endorsement for Pacifism.
Wink's point was that the efforts were effective were tried, but were few and far between. One can only guess at what would happen were it tried more comprehensively-- that's really the central thesis of his work, the way the "myth of redemptive violence" convinces us to eliminate non-violence as an option.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Yes but why did they work? A big part of it was because the Nazis were fighting a war against other nations using violence. How can Wink talk about the myth of redemptive violence and then talk about violence leading to the liberation of the Netherlands? I note most of the successful acts took place when Nazi attention was focused elsewhere or when Germany was losing the war.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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