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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: Saddam and Sharon
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Lurker McLurker™
Ship's stowaway
# 1384
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Posted
I'm not sure about this. A Palestinian terrorist could be more of a nationalist than a religious terrorist, someone who just wants not to live under Israeli rule and would rather die than do so.
Although the act of suicide bombing would be easier if you believed in life after death (and a god who didn't mind you blowing up civilians) plenty of non-religious people kill themselves.
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Just War Theory- a perversion of morality?
Posts: 5661 | From: Raxacoricofallapatorius | Registered: Sep 2001
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Rain Dog
Shipmate
# 4085
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Posted
I'm still mesmerised at what you're implying Matt (or am I understanding you wrong?)...
Basically you seem to be saying that Palestinians are currently under the best possible government because you can't trust them to govern themselves? Coming back to the NI situation it should be legitmate (i.e. by Israeli standards) for Dublin to invade NI (and some parts of Scotland and England) as the UK once laid a claim to Ireland and denied its right to exist independently? ("You can't trust those Paddys to rule themselves!")
Posts: 620 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Lurker McLurker™
Ship's stowaway
# 1384
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Posted
Cross posted there. I was of course replying to Erin's question.
As for Matt the Mad Medic:
quote:
Israel has a powerful law and order keeping force. A newly formed palestine state would not.
Doesn't mean that they are right to occupy the land. Was the fall of Communism bad because it led to war in Yugoslavia?
quote:
Apologies to you lurker
Apology accepted.
quote:
But the Islamic Fundamentalists who are ready to blow themselves up because of Jewish rule will probably be ready to blow themselves up because of a democratic government.
Not all of them. Most suicide bombers believe they are fighting a war against the Israelis and may not be so keen to destroy their own government.
quote:
First, I don't believe the PLO. Second, even if I did, they are the most liberal of the organisations Israel has to deal with.
And the longer the fighting goes on, the more people will be attracted to the more hardline groups.
quote:
Oh please...look at a freakin map. The idea you can compare Germany with Israel in this matter is crazy. Israel is a tiny dot surrounded by nations who hate it.
A map of the Middle East does not show the USA. When you've got the backing of the biggest military power on Earth, your own nukes, superior weaponry, and highly-trained soldiers, acting all little and vulnerable doesn't work. Do you think that, if Israel didn't have these advantages, a little piece of land over the Jordan would save it?
quote:
The question is whether "A peaceful settlement" is a genuine possiblity. Frankly...I doubt it.
I think it is. But not too likely with Sharon in power.
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Just War Theory- a perversion of morality?
Posts: 5661 | From: Raxacoricofallapatorius | Registered: Sep 2001
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Lifeman
Troll
# 579
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Posted
Firing tank shell's at a crowd whilst withdrawing!
I this going to reduce the amount of suicide bobmers? ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Posts: 746 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lifeman
Troll
# 579
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Posted
Before anyone else comments, yes I know I've mis-spelt 'bombers'.
Posts: 746 | Registered: Jun 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Not, strictly speaking, shells, AFAIK.
Fragmentation munitions of some sort, with little flechettes.
Illegal under some international treaties I think, though probably ones Israel didn't sign.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Toby
Shipmate
# 3522
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Posted
Regarding the comparison of the two:
Saddam has better dress sense, and looks healthier at the moment, than Sharon.
...and he hasn't tried to grab any extra land/invade anyone since 1990.
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'Civilization is only savagery silver-gilt'
Allan Quartermain
Posts: 99 | From: Aotearoa/New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2002
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
Matt; if you are relly interested in the views of the Palestinian Christians, then can I suggest you make contact with Sabeel this is their website and the Rev Stephen Sizer (this is his written work on Christian Zionism)
Stephen is a Reformed Evangelical and on most issues we couldn't be further away from each other, theologically. But on this one he talks a lot of sense, and I think you would find him interesting to talk to.
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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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netgeek
BANNED
# 4232
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Posted
There is no Palestine. The territory formerly known as Palestine was divided up. Part of it became Israel, while other sections went to Jordan, Lebenon, Syria and Egypt. Israel is the birthplace of the jewish peoples.I have no problem with them reclaiming it, just as I have no problem with Native Americans establishing thier own lands and governments.
Netgeek
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"Dogs love their friends and bite their enemies, quite unlike people, who are incapable of pure love and always have to mix love and hate." - Sigmund Freud
Posts: 49 | From: TROLL CITY | Registered: Mar 2003
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Netgeek, you are a wanker.
There is no such thing as the USA either, no such thing as the UK, or Germany, or any other nation.
Just people. Nations are abstractions, ideas in people's heads. If there are a large number of people who think they are members of a nation, than that nation exists.
Arguably there was no nation of Palestine 50 years ago. There bloody well is now though. The Israelis have brought it into being.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Royal Peculiar
Shipmate
# 3159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by netgeek:
. Israel is the birthplace of the jewish peoples.
No, it isn't. Or at least not according to the OT.
The Jewish people arrived there and were commanded by God to commit ethnic cleansing of the native populations before occupying the land. An incident which doesn't reflect particularly well either on the Israelites or on God, although doubtless at the time it was common practice to massacre indegenous peoples and claim divine sanction.
BTW welcome Netgeek
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Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative.
Oscar Wilde
Posts: 405 | From: Barking, London | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
Netgeek, welcome to Hell, and to the Ship in general. Please take a few moments to familiarise yourself with both the Ship's 10 Commandments, and the guidelines for each board before jumping into the fray. Other than that, have fun wandering round the boards and posting appropriately on each.
Everyone else, remember newbies get cut some slack.
Viki, hellhost
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
Posts: 10787 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Rain Dog
Shipmate
# 4085
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Posted
Thanks for those most excellent links Mike - spent most of the afternoon reading them.
P
Posts: 620 | Registered: Feb 2003
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netgeek
BANNED
# 4232
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Posted
Vicki:
I did read the commandments before joining. Forgive my ignorance, but I don't see where I have broken one - if that is the implication of your post. Upon review however, I am wondering if Ken calling me a "wanker" because I have a differing opinion is a violation of the first commandment.
I am not thin-skinned or sensitive enough to let such juvenility bother me however, anddo look forward to thoughtful debate in the future.
Ken:
Not arguably, but in fact there was never a "nation" known as Palestine. In fact, the Palestinians were not known as such until around 50 years ago. Until then individuals identified themselves based on their families country of origin. The territory identified as Palestine has never in history known self rule except when itwas ruled by Israelites prior to occupation by the Romans. Indeed, it was the Romans who named the area Palestine, who did so after killing and enslaving the jews.
Royal:
Technical correction: Jews are the descendents of the house of Judah. Abraham moved into the region called Canaan and "begat" Heber, for whom the Hebrews are named. They migrated to Egypt, then back to Canaan. The Hebrews slaughtered the inhabitants and established Israel, which was then divided into the various houses. The jews sprang from the house of Judah. Most of the other houses were "lost" during successive invasions and occupations by other nations and governments such as Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, Byzantia, then the arabic muslims.
Of more importance to the debate, I believe, is the fact that that the non-jewish inhabitantsof the region formerly known as Palestinewere given the opportunity to become voting members of the nation of Israel. The force of their voting power alone could have made all the tension afterwards moot. However, they chose to flee the Islamic armies that invaded from the north, east and south, and to my mind that denies them any claim to any land they fled from. If the jews had been massacred in 1948 (which I'm convinced was the secret hope of many nations and peoples) the Palestinians still would not have a nation of their own or any form of self rule. No group of people have ever tried to create a state there except the Israelis.
Netgeek
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"Dogs love their friends and bite their enemies, quite unlike people, who are incapable of pure love and always have to mix love and hate." - Sigmund Freud
Posts: 49 | From: TROLL CITY | Registered: Mar 2003
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Rain Dog
Shipmate
# 4085
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Posted
quote:
However, they chose to flee the Islamic armies that invaded from the north, east and south, and to my mind that denies them any claim to any land they fled from
Mmmm - which means that the Jews lost all claim to live in Poland, Germany and France because many of them fled the country... Oh and we'd better give most of Western Europe to Germany (or should that be France under Napoleon?)...
Posts: 620 | Registered: Feb 2003
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netgeek
BANNED
# 4232
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by perfecta:
Mmmm - which means that the Jews lost all claim to live in Poland, Germany and France because many of them fled the country... Oh and we'd better give most of Western Europe to Germany (or should that be France under Napoleon?)...
I'm sorry, I missed something. Is there a movement by the jews to establish a homeland in Poland? I hadn't heard anything about it. Please supply a link.
The jews were allowed to establish a homeland in the region formerly known as Palestine precisely because of two reasons:
(1)Their racial history and identity with the area.
(2) The fact that the area was an occupied territory (by UK at the time) that had no internal governing body.
Netgeek
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"Dogs love their friends and bite their enemies, quite unlike people, who are incapable of pure love and always have to mix love and hate." - Sigmund Freud
Posts: 49 | From: TROLL CITY | Registered: Mar 2003
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Rain Dog
Shipmate
# 4085
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Posted
I think you perfectly got my point (or are rather dense) - fleeing an area makes you lose any claims to it as a homeland? So to take another example, native Americans fleeing their homeland made them lose it? - well that is a rather convenient way of gaining territory...
Posts: 620 | Registered: Feb 2003
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netgeek
BANNED
# 4232
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by perfecta:
I think you perfectly got my point (or are rather dense) - fleeing an area makes you lose any claims to it as a homeland? So to take another example, native Americans fleeing their homeland made them lose it? - well that is a rather convenient way of gaining territory...
Perhaps it is you that is dense? Out of the entirety of my original post, this is the only point you can up with? The people who call themselves Palestinians are themselves the product of occupying invaders from foreign lands. There has been a jewish prescence in Israel since the time of King David. The movement to creat a new state of Israel is something the jews have been working on-peacefully I might add- since at least the 19th century. They did not go in slashing and killing and forcing people out in 1948. They simply received proper acknowledgement from world authorities whom recognized them as an independent state, then sounded the shofar. From that point on they have, for the most part, been defending themselves from their neighbors and internal terrorists.
The Palestinians could have stayed and participated in the emerging democracy and had much say in the direction of government as they outnumbered jews 2 or 3 to 1. They chose, however, to walk away. This is a far cry from what happened to native americans. The native americans were destroyed by disease and cruelty. They were savagely murdered and forced from their lands by an occupying government not native to the territory. Native Americans have far more right to engage in domestic terrorism than Palestinians.
Perhaps it would be best if agreed to disagree?
Netgeek
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"Dogs love their friends and bite their enemies, quite unlike people, who are incapable of pure love and always have to mix love and hate." - Sigmund Freud
Posts: 49 | From: TROLL CITY | Registered: Mar 2003
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Toby
Shipmate
# 3522
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Posted
Netgeek:
Even if (and I would have some (many) questions as to whether this is the case) Palestinians have no claim to Palestine, does that make the removal of their civil rights and the constant bombing and invasions of their living places by Israeli troops, and the concomitant psychological and physical damage (to put it mildly) to Palestinian children and adults, justified? Or the violation of agreements about settlements? For that seems to be what Sharon wishes to perpetuate.
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'Civilization is only savagery silver-gilt'
Allan Quartermain
Posts: 99 | From: Aotearoa/New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2002
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netgeek
BANNED
# 4232
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Toby:
Netgeek:
Even if (and I would have some (many) questions as to whether this is the case) Palestinians have no claim to Palestine, does that make the removal of their civil rights and the constant bombing and invasions of their living places by Israeli troops, and the concomitant psychological and physical damage (to put it mildly) to Palestinian children and adults, justified? Or the violation of agreements about settlements? For that seems to be what Sharon wishes to perpetuate.
One needs ask why the Israelis are doing what they do. Is it because they got bored drinking British tea and lacked anything else batter to do, or is it because they have run out of options for protecting their citizens? Did they finish reading "The Collected Works of Emily Dickenson" and say "I've got an idea, lets invade the West Bank"? Or was it perhaps that they sought some relief from the daily bombings by creating a buffer zone? If there was a nest of rattle snakes in your back yard, wouldn't you want to root them out before letting your children play there? Or would you simply move to a new house and hope it was rattlesnake free?
The killing of unarmed civilians is never justified, but I've got news for you: We don't live in a "just and charitable" world, nor will we ever. The jews have been on the defensive and homeless for 2000 years, yet they have managed to survive and keep their traditions and ethnic identity. Where is your empathy for their struggle against annihilation?
Another point: The only thing some of you seem to have in common with Palestinians is a dislike of jews. Other than that, very little of your/my personal ideologies and beloved freedoms would be welcome in muslim controlled countries. I am hard pressed to understand why women, homosexuals, liberal thinkers, and free thinking radicals would want to support a system of government/religion that would not allow them to exist.
Netgeek
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"Dogs love their friends and bite their enemies, quite unlike people, who are incapable of pure love and always have to mix love and hate." - Sigmund Freud
Posts: 49 | From: TROLL CITY | Registered: Mar 2003
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Presleyterian
Shipmate
# 1915
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Posted
To paraphrase Toby: quote:
Even if . . . [Israelis] have no claim to Israel, does that make the removal of their civil rights and the constant bombing and invasions of their living places** by [Palestinian terrorists], and the concomitant psychological and physical damage (to put it mildly) to [Israeli] children and adults, justified?
** And by "living places," are you referring to Sbarro's Pizza Restaurant, the Mahane Yehuda Market, the Ben-Yehuda Pedestrian Malls, the Mifgash Hashalom Gas Station, the Hasharon Shopping Mall, the Wall Street Cafe, the Nahariya Train Station, the Moment Cafe, the Great Synagogue of Tel Aviv, the Park Hotel, the Efrat Emergency Medical Center, the Sonol Gas Station, the Rothschild Street Pedestrian Mall, the Haifa University student bus, the Rishon Lezion Game Club, the ice cream parlor in Petah Tikva, the falafel stand on Hanevi'im Street, the Tel Aviv Central Bus Station, and the Frank Sinatra Student Center at the Hebrew University -- to name just a few of the suicide bombings for which Hamas, Islamic Jihad, or the Fatah Martyrs Brigade gleefully took credit.
This is a debate that we've had on this board for years and what a surprise: We haven't come to a resolution yet. But as I said on one of Lifeman's threads last week, among the institutions I look for in a society are a free press, free exercise of religion, tolerance of dissent, fair elections, an economic system that honors private property, and equal rights for women. Israel is far, far, far from perfect, but it honors those democratic institutions vastly more than its neighbors.
P.S. to Netgeek: As much as I agree with the substance of your post, I don't think that it's fair to read into peoples' comments "a dislike of [J]ews."
Posts: 2450 | From: US | Registered: Dec 2001
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by netgeek:
I did read the commandments before joining. Forgive my ignorance, but I don't see where I have broken one - if that is the implication of your post. Upon review however, I am wondering if Ken calling me a "wanker" because I have a differing opinion is a violation of the first commandment.
No, netgeek, sarkycow was just giving you some advance warning. I think that you will find that we Hellhosts generally clearly indicate when we have something official to state.
On the subject of Ken's behaviour, I think that you will find Hell has some some slightly different rules than the rest of the Ship-of-Fools.
As far as commenting that: quote:
The only thing some of you seem to have in common with Palestinians is a dislike of jews.
...you might want consider just how big you want that metaphorical bullseye you painted on yourself. From where I'm browsing, it's a clear enough marking for orbital bombardment.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Toby
Shipmate
# 3522
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Posted
I think (or perhaps hope) that most of us can agree that both sides do very nasty things to one another.
What I was trying to say is that the 'defensive' measures adopted by the IDF will only incite more violence and more hatred. Likewise, suicide bombings will do the same. Both forms of attack are completely unconstructive. Neither side can claim the moral high ground in this issue (as I once saw it put: "The moral high ground seems to be entirely unoccupied at this time").
Israel is supposedly a democratic, educated, developed nation. For that, under extraordinarily difficult circumstances, I congratulate them. But to oppress the Palestinians as they do today they are destroying the future of both groups.
But most of all, I am personally angry because the Israeli military and government does all it can to trivialise or deny the real suffering of most Palestinians. Of course, Israeli people suffer too, but as a supposedly civilised country (and with Palestine being in a state of relative chaos with regard to politics and infrastructure - in a large part due to the wilfull destruction of that infrastructure by Israel) they should know better than to strike back in the way that they do, knowing that they destroy not only innocent lives but also any chance of reconciliation or hope. They have the power in this situation, they have the gunships and the organised military and the money. And what do they do with it? Traumatise little children and kill the occasional terrorist - taking his whole family and part of the neighbourhood with him.
By the way, I do rather resent netgeek's implication that I am an anti-semite (implication, as it came at the end of a post replying to me, although it was general and not specific). I would suggest that it takes a lot more than a disapproval of Israeli policy and skepticism about many aspects of Zionism to make a Jew-hater.
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'Civilization is only savagery silver-gilt'
Allan Quartermain
Posts: 99 | From: Aotearoa/New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2002
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Presleyterian
Shipmate
# 1915
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Posted
Toby wrote: quote:
Of course, Israeli people suffer too, but as a supposedly civilised country (and with Palestine being in a state of relative chaos with regard to politics and infrastructure - in a large part due to the wilfull destruction of that infrastructure by Israel) they should know better than to strike back in the way that they do, knowing that they destroy not only innocent lives but also any chance of reconciliation or hope.
Just as Palestinians know that every suicide bombing destroys not only innocent lives, but also any chance of reconciliation or hope. If anything, I think it's insulting to suggest that Palestinians lack the capacity to do the right thing under the circumstances and therefore should be held to a lower standard than the Israelis.
quote:
They have the power in this situation, they have the gunships and the organised military and the money. And what do they do with it? Traumatise little children and kill the occasional terrorist - taking his whole family and part of the neighbourhood with him.
They may have the materiel, but they're surrounded on all sides by enemies who, in many cases, have vowed to stop at nothing short of their total annihilation off the face of the earth. Of course, we're all guessing here, but if the suicide bombings stopped, I think Israel could live with a Palestinian state in a way that Palestine may not be able to live with a safe, secure Israel.
And as for "traumatising little children," I left off my list the dozen or so instances of suicide bombers attacking military caravans escorting school buses. I guess you must be suggesting that little Israeli children don't find that tramatizing.
But I can absolutely agree with you that the moral high ground is indeed unoccupied.
Posts: 2450 | From: US | Registered: Dec 2001
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netgeek
BANNED
# 4232
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
quote:
The only thing some of you seem to have in common with Palestinians is a dislike of jews.
...you might want consider just how big you want that metaphorical bullseye you painted on yourself. From where I'm browsing, it's a clear enough marking for orbital bombardment.
Okay, perhaps that comment was a bit of a foul ball. However, one must admit that continual bashing and accusing of A while overlooking or excusing the sins of B could very easily lead onlookers into believing there was some prejudice involved.
I am pro-Israel, though I don't agree with every action they take in trying to make the area safe for Israelis. Both sides share the blame for the ongoing violence, but Israel has every right to be exactly where it is. There is a large section of the territory formerly known as Palestine that could be used to establish a Palestinian state and if the PLO leaders wanted it to be so, and pursued it in a legal manner, I'm sure they would have no problem getting it established. They choose, however, to continue to kill Israeli civilians. There is a quote, I'm not sure as to its origin, but it goes something like this: "When you fight against monsters long enough, you become one." Israel has been fighting for 50 years. Perhaps they are getting to the point where they figure fighting terror with terror is the only option. As I've said before, if the Palestinians were going after military target, or harrassing supply lines, it would be a different ball game. But they are murdering students and children, and no matter what Israel does today, it was done to them yesterday by Palestinians.
Netgeek
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"Dogs love their friends and bite their enemies, quite unlike people, who are incapable of pure love and always have to mix love and hate." - Sigmund Freud
Posts: 49 | From: TROLL CITY | Registered: Mar 2003
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netgeek
BANNED
# 4232
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Toby:
I I do rather resent netgeek's implication that I am an anti-semite (implication, as it came at the end of a post replying to me, although it was general and not specific). I would suggest that it takes a lot more than a disapproval of Israeli policy and skepticism about many aspects of Zionism to make a Jew-hater.
Point taken and I apologize for the offense.
FYI:I have a problem with the term anti-semitic. Semite does not refer to just jews:
Main Entry: Sem·ite
Pronunciation: 'se-"mIt, esp British 'sE-"mIt
Function: noun
Etymology: French sémite, from Semitic Shem, from Late Latin, from Greek SEm, from Hebrew ShEm
Date: 1848
1 a : a member of any of a number of peoples of ancient southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs b : a descendant of these peoples
2 : a member of a modern people speaking a Semitic language
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"Dogs love their friends and bite their enemies, quite unlike people, who are incapable of pure love and always have to mix love and hate." - Sigmund Freud
Posts: 49 | From: TROLL CITY | Registered: Mar 2003
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netgeek
BANNED
# 4232
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Presleyterian:
Of course, we're all guessing here, but if the suicide bombings stopped, I think Israel could live with a Palestinian state in a way that Palestine may not be able to live with a safe, secure Israel.
If the bombings stopped for a year, Israel would have no choice but to live with a Palestinian state. Even America would support the formation of said state. Any American president would love to be associated with bringing peace to the middle east. Said formation would be the quickest action the UN has ever agreed upon. However, the only way I see this ending is with an almost total destruction of one or the other. Palestinians and Israelis both want Jerusalem, andI don't think either will give up an inch of territory there.
Netgeek
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"Dogs love their friends and bite their enemies, quite unlike people, who are incapable of pure love and always have to mix love and hate." - Sigmund Freud
Posts: 49 | From: TROLL CITY | Registered: Mar 2003
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Rain Dog
Shipmate
# 4085
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by netgeek:
Out of the entirety of my original post, this is the only point you can up with?
nope - but I really can't be arsed with having to pull you up on every single point - you've shown your true colours with the usual drivel about anyone disagreeing with your interpretation being an anti-semite so what's the point discussing w/ someone who resorts to such tactics?
I'd really avoid saying that here in the future - it's oft waved about but it can only damage your standing rather than further any debate...
Posts: 620 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Rain Dog
Shipmate
# 4085
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Posted
Pres' - I think that many of us agree that two wrongs never make a right but I think that there is a major difference between a state sponsered repression of a people and individual-based terrorism...
If the UK were to act like that it would have invaded part of Ireland to provide the "buffer" to stop the IRA. Would it make it right? or would it make the chances of it being repeated even greater?
(and it's best we leave out the issue of the funding of the IRA)
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
Grabs hostly toasting fork
quote:
Okay, perhaps that comment was a bit of a foul ball. However, one must admit that continual bashing and accusing of A while overlooking or excusing the sins of B could very easily lead onlookers into believing there was some prejudice involved.
The Ship of Fools website (both halves - magazine and boards) is neither pro- nor anti- either A or B. There is no prejudice towards topics, opinions, beliefs etc from the Ship.
Viki, hellhost
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by netgeek:
If the bombings stopped for a year, Israel would have no choice but to live with a Palestinian state.
Which is precisely why that minority of Israeli opinion that wants to get rid of the Palestinians entirely, but which controls the poresent government, is never going to allow the terrorism to stop. They will, and have in the past, step up provocation whenver things get quiet.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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James Mc
Procrastinator
# 3414
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by netgeek:
If the bombings stopped for a year, Israel would have no choice but to live with a Palestinian state.
Which is precisely why that minority of Israeli opinion that wants to get rid of the Palestinians entirely, but which controls the poresent government, is never going to allow the terrorism to stop. They will, and have in the past, step up provocation whenver things get quiet.
And, of course, one could transpose teh words "Israeli" and "Palestinian" in your statement, Ken.
Posts: 905 | From: London, UK | Registered: Oct 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Except that the minority of Palestinians who want to keep up the bombing aren't running the excuse for a government laughingly called the "Palestianian Authority". Not that it stops them from bombing anyway.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Presleyterian
Shipmate
# 1915
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Posted
Perfecta wrote: quote:
I think that many of us agree that two wrongs never make a right but I think that there is a major difference between a state sponsered repression of a people and individual-based terrorism...
I think it would be naive to assume that groups such as Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the Fatah Brigade act utterly without state sponsorship.
Posts: 2450 | From: US | Registered: Dec 2001
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James Mc
Procrastinator
# 3414
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Except that the minority of Palestinians who want to keep up the bombing aren't running the excuse for a government laughingly called the "Palestianian Authority". Not that it stops them from bombing anyway.
Aren't the Al Aqsa (spelling?) Martyrs' Brigade part of Arafat's very own Fatah faction?
Posts: 905 | From: London, UK | Registered: Oct 2002
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netgeek
BANNED
# 4232
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by perfecta:
you've shown your true colours with the usual drivel about anyone disagreeing with your interpretation being an anti-semite so what's the point discussing w/ someone who resorts to such tactics?
and once again, in more detail:
I do hearby, with full sincerity and without compulsion formally apologize to Perfecta and any others who may have been offended by the general statement I made earlier. While I disagree with the notion that anyone is totally free of some bias, it was wrong of me to imply that some of the people here may actually be racist or otherwise filled with hatred for jews or other semites. I humbly ask the forgiveness of all and present my back for 40 lashes.
Can we move on now?
Netgeek
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"Dogs love their friends and bite their enemies, quite unlike people, who are incapable of pure love and always have to mix love and hate." - Sigmund Freud
Posts: 49 | From: TROLL CITY | Registered: Mar 2003
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netgeek
BANNED
# 4232
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by James M:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Except that the minority of Palestinians who want to keep up the bombing aren't running the excuse for a government laughingly called the "Palestianian Authority". Not that it stops them from bombing anyway.
Aren't the Al Aqsa (spelling?) Martyrs' Brigade part of Arafat's very own Fatah faction?
The problem is that Arafat either doesn't want peace or really isn't the person that should be leading the PLO. He has made many public statements that the bombings should stop, but they haven't. He is either not in control or he is being deceptive. Either way, we shouldn't be trying to broker a peace deal through him.
Netgeek
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"Dogs love their friends and bite their enemies, quite unlike people, who are incapable of pure love and always have to mix love and hate." - Sigmund Freud
Posts: 49 | From: TROLL CITY | Registered: Mar 2003
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by netgeek:
He has made many public statements that the bombings should stop, but they haven't. He is either not in control or he is being deceptive.
Obviously he's not in control. How can you be in control when the other side will take over the streets outside your building at the drop of a hat?
It's partly for that very reason that Israel government banned recent Palestinian elections. The last thing they want is to get rid of Arafat. If they did want rid of him they could do it in 20 minutes in the usual way they have of getting rid of Palestinians they don't like.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Rain Dog
Shipmate
# 4085
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by netgeek:
I do hearby, with full sincerity and without compulsion formally apologize to Perfecta and any others who may have been offended by the general statement I made earlier. While I disagree with the notion that anyone is totally free of some bias, it was wrong of me to imply that some of the people here may actually be racist or otherwise filled with hatred for jews or other semites. I humbly ask the forgiveness of all and present my back for 40 lashes.
Can we move on now?
Wasn't looking for apologies (sincere or not) - just stating that I'm not interested in continuing a debate with someone who's that full of shit. Same goes for the other thread.
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Bygones and all that, but perfecta, really, imagine if we'd taken the same attitude with you? A verse for today, from Matthew, chapter 18...
quote:
21Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"
22Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.[6]
23"Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents[7] was brought to him. 25Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
26"The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' 27The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
28"But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii.[8] He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded.
29"His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.'
30"But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.
32"Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' 34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35"This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."
Your debut was not exactly stellar, I should think you'd be a little more forgiving.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Rain Dog
Shipmate
# 4085
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
I should think you'd be a little more forgiving.
Oh it's not that I don't forgive him/her. I honestly do - s/he didn't need to ask for forgiveness for that. I was just stating the fact that I felt there was no point debating the issue further with him/her as I felt we wouldn't get anywhere - agreeing to disagree (Hell style)...
Honestly I hold no grudge against them (nor against you for that matter)...
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
The point of my post was more about the fact that newbies can put their foot in it, as you learned the hard way. So it might be a good idea to cut them some slack.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Presleyterian:
Perfecta wrote: quote:
I think that many of us agree that two wrongs never make a right but I think that there is a major difference between a state sponsered repression of a people and individual-based terrorism...
I think it would be naive to assume that groups such as Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the Fatah Brigade act utterly without state sponsorship.
![[Not worthy!]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Presleyterian,
Every post I read, and thought of a response, I had but to scroll down and I saw you making it, much more cogently than I felt able to. Thanks everso. Really. I think it's especially important to ask about the sort of society Islamic militants are looking to create. Women's rights? Ha! Democracy? Ha!
As to handling of the current crisis, and to Sharon and Arafat (and Hamas), I'd say a plague on all of their houses.
[ 11. March 2003, 03:54: Message edited by: Laura ]
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Rain Dog
Shipmate
# 4085
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Presleyterian:
Perfecta wrote: quote:
I think that many of us agree that two wrongs never make a right but I think that there is a major difference between a state sponsered repression of a people and individual-based terrorism...
I think it would be naive to assume that groups such as Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the Fatah Brigade act utterly without state sponsorship.
But not explicit support from a government that claims to be a democracy - major difference in my book.
Posts: 620 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Rain Dog
Shipmate
# 4085
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
The point of my post was more about the fact that newbies can put their foot in it, as you learned the hard way. So it might be a good idea to cut them some slack.
Well I didn't ask him "why don't you f--- off" or "get your head out of your ass" or wish s/he has been aborted (not sure about the verbatim nature of them as the thread seems to have been deleted...)
Anyway, I am departing from the boards - so rejoice and farewell...
Posts: 620 | Registered: Feb 2003
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James Mc
Procrastinator
# 3414
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by perfecta:
Anyway, I am departing from the boards - so rejoice and farewell...
Is that (holding breath) forever?
Posts: 905 | From: London, UK | Registered: Oct 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Oh for the love of Christ, get off the damn cross, perfecta.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
Ummmm.....since when does Hamas take its orders or get its money from Arafat?
It's not like he can call up all the organizations and say, "Hey, quit it for 5 years and we will see what happens." The "radicals" are past listening or dealing with. These people who pathologically hate Israel will, with support from somewhere, go on bombing until the supply of money is cut off. The question is how to stop that money. Consistantly treat the Palestinians significantly better, stop the settlements etc. and the money will eventually stop flowing. Treat the Palestinians with contempt, and with less regard then anybody would want to be treated, and the money will never stop.
All just too
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
Lifeman et al: Having followed this thread and today re-read it all I would like to enter the thread by asking one question. Do you acknowledge the possibility that the war that was started against the state of Israel (and the founding of the state of Israel) after WWII is being progressed by other means?
To briefly explain. I think that Israel’s enemies, after being defeated in all wars and battles that were fought with conventional weapons are now using, promulgating and funding organizations that will continue to attack to the very heart of the state whilst hiding behind the legitimacy of that old devil “freedom fighters.” That Israel’s enemies are the same ones they have always been and that THEY are using the Palestinian people both as a manufactured hotbed of raw recruits and as human shields for their cowardly and hateful tactics.
For me this is not about Israel and Palestine but Israel’s enemies using ANY method to progress their war of hatred. Due to this opinion whilst I am able to feel angry with Sharon, Arafat or whoever is caught up in trying to do the right thing (or wrong thing) in this difficult situation. My absolute and complete lack of compassion, forgiveness or hope for any peace is pointed directly at the old enemies of Israel who having failed in the past now pay poor benighted souls to do their bloody and wicked work for them.
Everybody is swift to bang on about American support for Israel. Do you really consider the Palestinian terrorist groups to be poorly funded, ill thought out gangs? I am utterly stunned by the sheer naivety of some of the thinking on this thread.
Lifeman how about asking a host to change the thread title? You poor attempt at humour (?) borders on the sick.
Perfecta, WTF is your problem, why in by the withered balls of St Paul are you sulking this time ?
P
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Lurker McLurker™
Ship's stowaway
# 1384
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by netgeek:
If there was a nest of rattle snakes in your back yard, wouldn't you want to root them out before letting your children play there? Or would you simply move to a new house and hope it was rattlesnake free?
Are you comparing the entire Palestinian people to a bunch of poisonous snakes? Here's a better analogy:
If there is a nest of rattlesnakes next door, wouldn't you want to invade your neighbour's house, and try to destroy the nest, killing some of your neighbour's kids on the way?
Of course, in this analogy, the greiving relatives of those unjustly killed don't become rattlesnakes themselves, while Israeli intervention in Palestine breeds resentmrnt and creates more terrorists.
Here's a radical proposal: Why doesn't the west, rather than give Israel military aid, offer it to the Palestinian Authority to help stamp out terrorists like Hamas in the same way we worked with the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan to defeat the Taliban?
Posts: 5661 | From: Raxacoricofallapatorius | Registered: Sep 2001
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