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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Stages of Faith
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by AberVicar:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
But we do it all the time.
Then whoever 'we' are need to put a stop to it PDQ. Because it's arrogant. And stupid. And dangerous.
...and because it's plain unChristlike.
You make no such judgments?
The Church, in all its history makes no such judgments? We could start with the creeds. You know, who's in and who is out? Or if you ignore the creeds, you could go for salvation dependent on a particular atonement model. Say Penal Substitution and only that leads to progress?
Puulease. Get real.
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
I've always had a lot of sympathy for Martin Luther, who famously rejected the 16th century equivalent of stages of faith in favour of the idea that we are all really at the lowest stage imaginable and completely dependent on the grace of God. The only difference is between people who accept their dependence and people who don't.
So all people's souls and faith's are equal in Luther's judgment?
I don't recall such a thing.
He was an opinionated bastard.
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a theological scrapbook
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
Leprechaun makes a fair point. For most of history Christians, Jews and Muslims would have understood 'faith progression' as conforming more and more closely to the will of God as expressed through Christianity, Judaism or Islam. Globally most Christians, Jews and Muslims would still understand it on those terms. Fowler however starts from the assumption that 'faith progression' can be measured by universal criteria which supposedly transcend those of any given faith (yet are very obviously the products of a particular culture). In doing so IMO he comes up with a theory of faith progression largely removed from what most of the faithful actually think.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
quote:
So all people's souls and faith's are equal in Luther's judgment?
Sigh. All people's souls yes. All people's faiths no. And they aren't in your eyes either, given your forthright criticism of anyone a sliver more conservative than yourself. As for criticising Luther for being "opiniated"...pot? kettle?
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
All people's faiths no.
Ah right. That must be a sign that his own faith had not progressed very far.
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
As for criticising Luther for being "opiniated"...pot? kettle?
Absolutely.
He's one of my heroes.
Ever read him talking to Erasmus of Rotterdam?
Damn he knew how to talk dirty.
[edited for atrocious apostrophising]
[ 13. July 2011, 14:43: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
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AberVicar
Mornington Star
# 16451
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by AberVicar:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
But we do it all the time.
Then whoever 'we' are need to put a stop to it PDQ. Because it's arrogant. And stupid. And dangerous.
...and because it's plain unChristlike.
You make no such judgments?
(snip)
Puulease. Get real.
I am being real. I don't make judgements on people's faith, and I hold out consistently against others' judgements.
And if trying not to be arrogant, stupid and dangerous isn't enough incentive to pack in the judgement game, then try Mt 7.1. It does it for me...
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Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, make sure you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes.
Posts: 742 | From: Abertillery | Registered: May 2011
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
quote:
In the original book the research sample is given in the appendix.
Conclusions were based on 359 individuals
gender evenly mixed
Ages
0-6 7%
7-12 8.1
13-20 15.6
21-30 25.1
31-40 13.4
41-50 8.9
51-60 4.7
60+ 17.3
All US based interviews
97.8% white, 2.2% black
45% protestant; 36.5 % Catholic; 11.2% Jew; 3.6% Orthodox; 3.6% other
There is a very obvious problem here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this basically trying to construct some grand over-arching narrative of faith progression out of the experiences of a single generation of Judeo-Christian Americans? Both Fowler's research and his subjects' responses were no doubt conditioned by a whole host of subconcious assumptions rooted in their particular society, culture and religious formation. I doubt if his stages of faith are even usefully applicable to my generation (born 1980) in the UK, let alone to a non-20th century or non-western experiences. IMO attempts to try and squeeze the diversity of human religious experience into some tidy theory of religious progression are horribly arrogant.
Worse than that. The numbers are at least an order of magnitude too small to come to any conclusions even if there was a decent method involved.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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AberVicar
Mornington Star
# 16451
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Worse than that. The numbers are at least an order of magnitude too small to come to any conclusions even if there was a decent method involved.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, make sure you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
"Praying like a five year-old" sounds to me very much like something Christians are supposed to do.
Depends how3 you prayed as a 5 year-old. I used to have a list for Sunday and, for the rest of the week, basically said to God, 'What I said yesterday is still what I want'.
I was scared before the op. and was bargaining with God, since there was a risk of brain damage.
I think we are 'supposed' to pray, 'Thy will be done.' That is definitely what I was NOT praying for.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
As for being at stage 3 and OK with it, I think I inhabited a split world all through my twenties because my study of theology, at under- and post-graduate level made me believe one set of stuff, while my heavy involvement in an inner city anglo-catholic church made me practice something different.
And the implications of that are?
If you don't mind my saying so, you open your post by citing a battery of authorities. any particular stage of spiritual development.
Battery? I merely mentioned Ronald Goldman.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Holy Smoke:
the orthodox Roman Catholic doesn't really decide for himself that, say, the Pope is infallible, or that the Virgin Mary was assumed into heaven, based on an objective assessment of the evidence, but he concentrates on the arguments in favour, and on the official apologetics in the Catechism, until such a point where he can truthfully say that he 'firmly believes and truly' that the Pope really is infallible, or that the BVM is in heaven, without consciously lying - what an unsympathetic critic might call a sort of voluntary brain-washing.
Thus, the mature Catholic is probably firmly situated at Stage 3, the 'Synthetic-Conventional' stage, while Stage 4 (Individuative-Reflective) and higher would increasing fall under the 'Invincible Ignorance' rubric, I would have thought. ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
It depends who defines 'orthodox'. A great many adherents of 'dogmatic' denominations stay out of loyalty but do not subscribe to all the official doctrine.
Daniel Helminiac, RC priest, wrote a book called 'The Transcended Christian' to help people who came away from their priests feeling that he could be no help to them since he was immature in his faith and just churned out the official, party line.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
PS I suspect that the desire to locate oneself and others on a ladder of 'faith progression' may be a sign that one's own faith has not progressed very far
Hear hear.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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Holy Smoke
Shipmate
# 14866
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
You make no such judgments? ...
Speaking for myself, I will make judgements as to whether somebody is a good person, but not whether they are a good Christian - the latter question is really of no interest to me.
Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2009
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Here's another vote for praying like a five-year-old. If I could do that all the time, I'd be a blessed woman.
My kids (one year either side of five) can pray very profound, sincere and moving prayers. And also very silly, selfish and disrespectful ones. A child's prayer is not necesarily an especially pure one.
I don't think I'm that different from a five year old really - I'm just a bit fatter and know more stuff.
I wasn't thinking of purity at all--rather of the very low bullshit factor. A five-year-old in my experience will just come out and tell you (or God) what he wants in the baldest possible language; there's no fake spiritualizing, sugar-coating or self-second-guessing. But sometimes I can barely pray at all for the little self-reflective voices that are saying "But should I really ask this? say it this way? put it some other way?" and other such crap. As if God didn't know the truth about me anyway.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
A five-year-old in my experience will just come out and tell you (or God) what he wants in the baldest possible language; there's no fake spiritualizing, sugar-coating or self-second-guessing.
Three-year-old maybe. By five most people are quite capable of embarrasment, dissimulation, double-mindedness, or keeping their mouths shut because they know what they say will annoy some adult or other even if they can't quite work out why.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by AberVicar:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by AberVicar:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
But we do it all the time.
Then whoever 'we' are need to put a stop to it PDQ. Because it's arrogant. And stupid. And dangerous.
...and because it's plain unChristlike.
You make no such judgments?
(snip)
Puulease. Get real.
I am being real. I don't make judgements on people's faith, and I hold out consistently against others' judgements.
And if trying not to be arrogant, stupid and dangerous isn't enough incentive to pack in the judgement game, then try Mt 7.1. It does it for me...
Onya.
So what, to you, does it mean to be a Christian? Do you judge yourself? Are you aiming for something? Do you accept everything in others and the world?
quote:
Originally posted by Holy Smoke:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
You make no such judgments? ...
Speaking for myself, I will make judgements as to whether somebody is a good person, but not whether they are a good Christian - the latter question is really of no interest to me.
They aren't related in your cosmology? And why bother judging one and not the other?
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Leprechaun, who on this thread has reached the latter stages? I don't see any ...
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Holy Smoke
Shipmate
# 14866
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Holy Smoke:
Speaking for myself, I will make judgements as to whether somebody is a good person, but not whether they are a good Christian - the latter question is really of no interest to me.
They aren't related in your cosmology? And why bother judging one and not the other?
They are probably distantly related, but on what (or whose) criteria do you judge someone's prowess in Christianity? Making a judgement about someone's basic overall 'goodness', i.e. what is John or Mary like as a person) is surely of rather more practical benefit, e.g. deciding whether on not to trust somebody in a business or social relationship. If you know that someone is basically out for themselves, then you can take the necessary precautions, and treat them accordingly.
Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2009
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Leprechaun, who on this thread has reached the latter stages? I don't see any ...
Me! Me! You missed me!
I'm just trying to be all things to all people. You know, get down to their level so as to really commune? Like, be missional?
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Holy Smoke:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Holy Smoke:
Speaking for myself, I will make judgements as to whether somebody is a good person, but not whether they are a good Christian - the latter question is really of no interest to me.
They aren't related in your cosmology? And why bother judging one and not the other?
They are probably distantly related, but on what (or whose) criteria do you judge someone's prowess in Christianity?
Fruit? You know, like Jesus said? Or is that too low church?
I suppose high church would be dependent on how many doctrines you can recite and believe in? And how well you can wave incense?
The trouble is, it's much easier for some people to be good than it is for others....
We don't all start at the same place.
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a theological scrapbook
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Holy Smoke
Shipmate
# 14866
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Fruit? You know, like Jesus said? Or is that too low church? I suppose high church would be dependent on how many doctrines you can recite and believe in? And how well you can wave incense?
I believe it is the full 360 degrees rotation that is the crucial test of faith. But the phrase 'a good Christian' can mean all sorts of different things to different people, which is why I generally avoid it.
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
The trouble is, it's much easier for some people to be good than it is for others....We don't all start at the same place.
Like if you're rich or good-looking or intelligent or white-skinned? Or just naturally good? Not sure that I agree with you there - we all have to make the same decision according to the same criteria, and live in the same world with the same temptations. It's an interesting proposition, though.
Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2009
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Holy Smoke:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
The trouble is, it's much easier for some people to be good than it is for others....We don't all start at the same place.
Like if you're rich or good-looking or intelligent or white-skinned? Or just naturally good? Not sure that I agree with you there - we all have to make the same decision according to the same criteria, and live in the same world with the same temptations. It's an interesting proposition, though.
I am sure that those who come from families with abusing parents or who grow up in a culture where exploitation of others is the norm and valued have a much harder time of it than me. I think they are going to judged more leniently than me.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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AberVicar
Mornington Star
# 16451
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Onya.
Please translate.
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Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, make sure you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes.
Posts: 742 | From: Abertillery | Registered: May 2011
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
May I point out the subtitle of Fowler's work
quote:
The Psychology of Human Development and The Quest for Meaning
Some how I suspect many don't do the implied equivalence in that of
Faith = Quest for meaning
I personally think humans are meaning makers, and yes I am happy at the suggestion that we develop skills at making meaning as we grow up (for instance we learn to speak a language). I am also happy that elements of faith are related to making meaning. However to call"meaning making" "faith" seems to be stretching things.
I therefore see the title as an eye catcher, something to get people to read it. The subtitle is more accurately what the book is tackling.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
And following from JJs observation. In the Introduction Fowler states quote:
In these pages I am offering a theory of growth in faith. ... Theories can be exciting and powerful, giving us names for our experiences and ways to understand and express what we have lived. they can also become blinders, limiting our ability to see only those features of phenomena that we can name and account for. Erik Erikson ... once said "We must take our theories with a serious playfulness and a playful seriousness.
BTW, conversion is discussed in this book, and in his model can happen at any stage or transition between stages. In his model people do not have a transition from without faith to having faith, but from one faith to another faith (if i understand correctly) so it does include people like LC.
Thanks for those who have provided other models. I hope to have time some day to see if they are alternative or complementary.
At the moment, though I understand that many here do not like his model, and some criticism seem to have substance, the criticism have appeared to me to be more on the application of the model than to show it to be substantially flawed.
I accept that the sample is skewed to a particular culture, but am not convinced about the inadequacy of the sample size; but then I am more familiar with differential and inferential statistics and something different may be required here.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
who grow up in a culture where exploitation of others is the norm and valued
You mean a culture like capitalism?
![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
[ 15. July 2011, 10:28: Message edited by: Dafyd ]
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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coniunx
Shipmate
# 15313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Holy Smoke:
Thus, the orthodox Roman Catholic doesn't really decide for himself that, say, the Pope is infallible, or that the Virgin Mary was assumed into heaven, based on an objective assessment of the evidence, but he concentrates on the arguments in favour, and on the official apologetics in the Catechism, until such a point where he can truthfully say that he 'firmly believes and truly' that the Pope really is infallible, or that the BVM is in heaven, without consciously lying - what an unsympathetic critic might call a sort of voluntary brain-washing.
Thus, the mature Catholic is probably firmly situated at Stage 3, the 'Synthetic-Conventional' stage, while Stage 4 (Individuative-Reflective) and higher would increasing fall under the 'Invincible Ignorance' rubric, I would have thought.
Just noticed this discussion, and went and looked up the stages.
I think most of the mature and committed Catholics I know are in stage 5; deeply aware of the contradictions inherent in living in a fallen material world whilst knowing the simplicity of God and the clarity of doctrine; aware that doctrine is a description in words of something far deeper, but that no clearer expression exists; firmly grounded in the understanding and revelation of the Church throughout the centuries, but able to fly for themselves without losing touch with it or commitment to it. Encouraged by the universality of their faith to go beyond their own social and geographical roots, challenged daily by being part of the same whole as people with whom they have nothing else in common, and yet deeply aware that they do not, as individuals, have any guaranteed insight which means they know better than their compatriots in the Church, alive through all the ages; for they have learnt some humility too.
And yes, many of them have seriously questioned the infallibility of Rome, and challenged it, and given up on it for a while, and come back to it, often after deep study, perhaps more often after a profoundly shocking experience of prayer.
That was all in Stage 4; they've gone beyond it, and can only be sympathetic to those who seem to have got stuck in it, for it's a place that first seems exciting but soon becomes an uncomfortable and depressing place - rather like teenagerdom; it has its good bits, but who'd want to be there forever?
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Coniunx
Posts: 250 | From: Nottingham | Registered: Nov 2009
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
A five-year-old in my experience will just come out and tell you (or God) what he wants in the baldest possible language; there's no fake spiritualizing, sugar-coating or self-second-guessing.
Three-year-old maybe. By five most people are quite capable of embarrasment, dissimulation, double-mindedness, or keeping their mouths shut because they know what they say will annoy some adult or other even if they can't quite work out why.
That's my experience. And from three to, well, at least thirty-eight, capable of silliness and showing off.
Tangent: my daughter invented pantheism yesterday. She said to me "Hello, God!" and when I (mindful of what befell Herod Agrippa) told her that I wasn't God, and she shouldn't say that I was, she replied "No - if God is God and God is everywhere, then everyone is God. I'm God, you're God, Ben is God."
She's four. Where's that in Fowler's Stages of Faith?
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Stage 42.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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AberVicar
Mornington Star
# 16451
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by AberVicar:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Onya.
Please translate.
Definition from 'Urban Dictionary'
Is this what you mean?
A response would be appreciated.
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Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, make sure you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes.
Posts: 742 | From: Abertillery | Registered: May 2011
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by AberVicar:
quote:
Originally posted by AberVicar:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Onya.
Please translate.
Definition from 'Urban Dictionary'
Is this what you mean?
A response would be appreciated.
Although I am a pom, I've been an Aussie for 25 years and here (NSW & Qld, Victoria even and I would have thought in WA as well) onya is short for good onya meaning thanks or well done, but they seem out of context in that post, though a sarcastic onya! might have fitted, but I don't want to do eisegesis. So I also wait for the singer to explain the song.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
quote:
quote:Originally posted by Yerevan:
All people's faiths no.
Ah right. That must be a sign that his own faith had not progressed very far.
By that criteria virtually no monotheist born before about 1960 ever "progressed very far". This is one of the funny little ways in which hardcore liberals and hardcore evangelicals sound oddly similar. Hardcore evangelicals believe that all those poor benighted primitives unfortunate enough to be born before 1517 got Christianity completely wrong. Hardcore liberals believe that all those poor benighted primitives unfortunate enough to be born before 1960 got Christianity completely wrong.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
Hardcore evangelicals believe that all those poor benighted primitives unfortunate enough to be born before 1517 got Christianity completely wrong.
Not at all! There were the Lollards and Hussites!
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
Hardcore evangelicals believe that all those poor benighted primitives unfortunate enough to be born before 1517 got Christianity completely wrong.
Not at all! There were the Lollards and Hussites!
At a push I've even heard Jesus and the Apostles included.
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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