homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | Register | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Purgatory   » Thank God ... you reckon? (Page 3)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Thank God ... you reckon?
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Would it be fair to say that the working class, like the slaves and former slaves in the US and Caribbean, melded religious aspiration with emancipation, until secular education and politics made religion less relevant, detached it from life?

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17007 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Would it be fair to say that the working class, like the slaves and former slaves in the US and Caribbean, melded religious aspiration with emancipation, until secular education and politics made religion less relevant, detached it from life?

Well I think the notion of "Methodist" (sometimes Evangelical) Uplift is a real thing, and did indeed have the effect of aspiring to more middle-class respectability for congregations. Here in the Welsh valleys that took the form of support for co-operatives, unionisation, education and moral teaching. It is quite hard to separate out the impact of the chapel from those things - and at some points the church/chapel is the major source of any education for children.

Bringing this back round to the topic of the OP, I suppose one might wonder about the extent to which an individual who has experienced life change as a result of improvements encouraged by church might ascribe that to God. On the one hand one might argue that there isn't much relation. On the other hand, maybe there would have been no improvement in these things if the churches had not been inspired to push and look for it in working people.

--------------------
arse

Posts: 10325 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349

 - Posted      Profile for Anglican_Brat   Email Anglican_Brat   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Any blessing received whether a healing or good news is IMHO meant to be a blessing for others. Sight regained is given so one might see the plight of others,hearing regained is given so one might hear the cries of others in need.

I am reminded of Paul's teaching on spiritual gifts as appropriate, gifts given by God is meant to build up the community.

Posts: 4293 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Nick Tamen

Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164

 - Posted      Profile for Nick Tamen     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Would it be fair to say that the working class, like the slaves and former slaves in the US and Caribbean, melded religious aspiration with emancipation, until secular education and politics made religion less relevant, detached it from life?

Religion is still very relevant to political life among many, many—most, in this part of the country—African Americans.

--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

Posts: 2557 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Russ
Old salt
# 120

 - Posted      Profile for Russ   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Any blessing received whether a healing or good news is IMHO meant to be a blessing for others.

I would share Boogie's disquiet about thanking God in the case of competitive sport, where one person thanking God for their victory is a claim that God is acting for the defeat of others.

But in the case of diseases and disorders, should not one person's cure be a sign of hope for others ?

Maybe the problem here lies in seeing life as essentially competitive ? That one person's good takes away from other people ? That life is a zero-sum game and sharing out the fixed supply of goodies is what it's all about ?

--------------------
Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas

Posts: 3069 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649

 - Posted      Profile for Raptor Eye     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:


…... in the case of diseases and disorders, should not one person's cure be a sign of hope for others ?

Maybe the problem here lies in seeing life as essentially competitive ? That one person's good takes away from other people ? That life is a zero-sum game and sharing out the fixed supply of goodies is what it's all about ?

It does seem to depend upon our mindset.

We might stand near to a wonderful fountain, hoping that the water will touch us, happy that others have benefitted from it.

We might resent it that others have benefitted from it but that we haven't, and so rail against it.

We might think it a waste of time as we've tried several times to draw near, but it never seems to reach us.

We might prefer those who benefit to keep quiet about it, so as not to disappoint those who haven't, rather than to share the good news.

We might disbelieve that anyone has known its benefit.

And as you said, we might think that there's only so much to go around and we must compete for it, whether or not it disadvantages other people.

--------------------
Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10

Posts: 4224 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

 - Posted      Profile for Boogie     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I think it's often easier to suffer yourself than to see others suffer.

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 12737 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

 - Posted      Profile for mdijon     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
I would share Boogie's disquiet about thanking God in the case of competitive sport, where one person thanking God for their victory is a claim that God is acting for the defeat of others.

Thanking God is not necessarily a claim that God intervened to ensure victory - that God was responsible for the slip of the fingers and the gust of wind that cost the opponents the game. It could be thankfulness regarding one's abilities and opportunities that have led to that point.

--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
It could be thankfulness regarding one's abilities and opportunities that have led to that point.

And what about those with significant disabilities and/or lack of opportunity? Is it then right for them to curse God?
It seems to me, given the behaviour of some very gifted athletes, much doubt exists that their abilities are Heavenly awards.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17109 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
An old argument: the birth of a child is evidence for God; the death of a child is evidence that he is evil. Well, it's not really, in either case.

--------------------
the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

Posts: 9707 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238

 - Posted      Profile for Crœsos     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Thanking God is not necessarily a claim that God intervened to ensure victory - that God was responsible for the slip of the fingers and the gust of wind that cost the opponents the game. It could be thankfulness regarding one's abilities and opportunities that have led to that point.

I think this is conflating two very different things. Being thankful is a general satisfaction/happiness with a certain situation or state of affairs. Thanking someone else implies action and agency on their part and expresses happiness or satisfaction with a situation or state of affairs brought about by that person's actions (or, more rarely, inaction). To go back to the OP, being generally thankful to have your sight back is different (more inwardly directed) than thanking your surgical team for restoring your sight.

So if there's agency in what someone is being thanked for, there's the possibility that they could have done something different. For example, the surgical team could have given your spot in surgery to someone else. Or decided to take the day off. Or done any of a number of other things besides performing this particular surgery on this particular patient. We understand that the abilities of doctors are not limitless and content ourselves with the system in which they operate (in both senses of the term) is generally a fair one.

An omnipotent God doesn't have those limitations. An omnipotent God doesn't have any limitations. Given that thanking someone is also ascribing agency to them, it seems fair to assess their deliberate use of that agency.

This news story came to mind on the subject of thanks and divine agency.

quote:
The pictures coming out of the Gatlinburg, Tennessee, wildfires are just devastating. Acres of woodland blackened. Row upon row of homes and businesses reduced to ashes.

But a TV crew with CNN affiliate WVLT spotted something of a miracle amid all that destruction. On Wednesday, reporter Kelsey Leyrer and her team captured footage of what they saw at a house out in Sevier County. It was a statue of Jesus -- covered with soot and ashes, but still standing. It was the only thing left after the home burned to the ground.

Some are taking this as a sign of divine intervention. If people are going to assign this to deliberate action on God's part, it seems only fair to ask about God letting everyone's homes and workplaces be burnt, 14 people killed (so far), and He steps in to save a statue of Himself?

--------------------
Humani nil a me alienum puto

Posts: 10502 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

 - Posted      Profile for mdijon     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
It could be thankfulness regarding one's abilities and opportunities that have led to that point.

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
And what about those with significant disabilities and/or lack of opportunity? Is it then right for them to curse God?

No. I can be thankful to my parents for the opportunities they gave me without cursing them for those they denied me.

--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

 - Posted      Profile for mdijon     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
So if there's agency in what someone is being thanked for, there's the possibility that they could have done something different. For example, the surgical team could have given your spot in surgery to someone else. Or decided to take the day off. Or done any of a number of other things besides performing this particular surgery on this particular patient.

I once heard a patient explain, logically, that there was no need to thank a particular doctor who was simply doing his job.

The surgical team were paid to be available at that point, and didn't select the patient to treat out of whim, or any particular fondness for the patient, but because they were in the queue, it was their turn, and they met certain criteria.

Does their lack of agency diminish our thankfulness to them?

--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549

 - Posted      Profile for Dafyd   Email Dafyd   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
I think this is conflating two very different things. Being thankful is a general satisfaction/happiness with a certain situation or state of affairs. Thanking someone else implies action and agency on their part and expresses happiness or satisfaction with a situation or state of affairs brought about by that person's actions (or, more rarely, inaction). To go back to the OP, being generally thankful to have your sight back is different (more inwardly directed) than thanking your surgical team for restoring your sight.

I think that when talking about God, at least as described in classical theism, the distinction breaks down. If you're talking about an entity that is (allegedly) outside of time and fundamentally responsible for the ongoing existence of everything else, applying the word 'agency' to it is stretching the category. (In line with the general principle that applying any word to God is stretching a category.)
To be thankful to God is within classical theism very much like being thankful to nobody in particular.

--------------------
we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

Posts: 10420 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
Check out Reform magazine
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
  ship of fools