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Source: (consider it) Thread: Women's marches and other marches
Jemima the 9th
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Thanks, Doc Tor!
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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
It's good to see that freedom of speech is still valued, but the fact that so many people are angry suggests that democracy isn't working very well. If voting in a president leads to 1000s of angry people demonstrating against him straight away that means voting is rather pointless, because the will of the people hasn't been done.

These days it seems that voting only adds to the amount of division and unhappiness in the world.

Actually, it doesn't. It is a fairly obvious indicator that society is very seriously divided. It's a consequence, not the cause.

However, the way the successful candidate campaigned has seriously exacerbated the division.

Something that theses threads also demonstrate is that the division is not as binary as politicians and media would prefer it to be.

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SvitlanaV2
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But the point is that this candidate won, in spite of what he said. Some people weren't put off by that, while others were repelled.

Of course, very few Shippies would have voted for him anyway. This highlights the chasm between the Ship's demograpgic and half of the American nation.

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

These days it seems that voting only adds to the amount of division and unhappiness in the world.

Actually, it doesn't. It is a fairly obvious indicator that society is very seriously divided. It's a consequence, not the cause.
I also think division, or maybe diversity of opinion is present all of the time in a society.
Whenever polls are held over contentious issues, like the one in 02 for rubbing out Saddam, it often comes back as split down the middle. The one for reinstating capital punishment often came back as more for's than againsts. Not sure if that is still true.

It is almost as if an entire society is like a single mind which is trying to evaluate right from wrong. When something provocative like this comes along it may appear that a society is deeply divided, or it could be more a collective wrestling of consciences. If it is, then is it such a bad thing?

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Brenda Clough
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What I find frightening is the analysis of the white evangelical voter. Apparently this cohort voted for the Ogler because he will nominate pro-life judges. Every other issue or factor was unimportant -- the groping, the racism, the anti-Muslim agenda, the gutting of science and government. They are content to see everything destroyed and overthrown, lives wrecked and health care torn away, because they are 'pro-life.' Everyone pre-born wins out, over everyone now alive.

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Penny S
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Science march
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Anselmina
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This article gives an interesting, and I think perceptive view on how a certain brand of evangelical Christianity has managed to adapt itself to Trump's political and social values.

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Brenda Clough
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I couldn't find a link to just the meme, but go here and look at the illustration, a short way down. This is really believed, by those who insist that Obama was Satan incarnate (and was going to take all the guns, initiate a Muslim caliphate and sharia law, etc. etc. etc.)

[ 25. January 2017, 19:56: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]

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Penny S
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Really odd - I have been harbouring the thought that if anyone resembled the Anti-Christ, well, it wasn't Obama.

And hey, whoever that guy with the suitcases is, he certainly ain't Jesus. 'Cos he isn't, in any way, shape or form, Jewish. Or even Jewish-ish.

[ 25. January 2017, 20:03: Message edited by: Penny S ]

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I couldn't find a link to just the meme, but go here and look at the illustration, a short way down. This is really believed, by those who insist that Obama was Satan incarnate (and was going to take all the guns, initiate a Muslim caliphate and sharia law, etc. etc. etc.)

Which is one of those reasons to give short shrift to those arguing that 'post-modernism' caused a sudden descent into the world of 'alternative-facts'

Go back 15 years before that and you get the same kinds of rumours about Whitewater and the Clintons murdering people, it's not like this thing started in the last years due overbearing 'SJWs'

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Brenda Clough
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I saw an amusing comment on this picture: "Typical Republicans, they're letting Jesus carry his own bags."

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Ian Climacus

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Re the massive protests, I read an article outlining what the author thought was next for the movement.

Selected quotes:
quote:
First, the rage of the protesters and those who were with them in spirit will have to be maintained.

Secondly, the movement will need a leadership that can keep together the broad and potentially fractious groupings in the anti-Trump camp.

Thirdly, it will need to be vigilante about being white-anted from within by those who would see the movement direct all its energies to campaigning for the Democratic Party.

The dominant faction of the Democrats, the ones who worked hard to undermine Bernie Sanders, is as much part of the problem as it is part of the solution.

These are the basics. All sorts of other unpredictable and uncontrollable factors may come into play

What are the thoughts on this of those who marched? The author saw what you did as a movement rather than a one-off march [he contrasts it to the anti-Iraq war marches which fizzled out and were ignored by those in power]. Also, is the dominant Democratic faction part of the problem?

He ends with "perhaps the biggest challenge is to understand what has happened to American society". How would such an analysis sit alongside marches, or are they necessarily separate?

[edit: added question]

[ 27. January 2017, 21:54: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]

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Brenda Clough
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I think the most important question is at the end. How could such a man as DT be elected? We don't really know. A significant chunk of the voting population (but not the majority, thank God) were either deceived or deluded.

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Dave W.
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But there's no reason to think the voting population was much different last year than in previous elections, is there? I doubt they had become more gullible, foolish, or bigoted, or even more economically desperate. (Median wages have been stagnant for what, forty years? And we're supposed to think that only now they're outraged?)

How about this: The people who voted for Trump were always there and always like that, more or less - they just didn't have that option until now. In years past, the Republican party establishment enforced limits on the type of person who could possibly reach the nomination, but those norms and barriers have been crumbling. You could see it in the ever more clownish assembly of grifters and nutjobs appearing as candidates as the establishment lost its grip. John McCain can't possibly have thought Sarah Palin was a suitable running mate in 2008; in 2012 we laughed as block-headed Rick Perry, swivel-eyed Michele Bachmann, and pizza magnate Herman Cain somehow appeared next to Romney. But in 2016 the wheels finally came off the wagon and the big wigs discovered that their years of whipping up no-nothing anti-government sentiment and baiting the rubes had neutralized their ability to beat back an obviously unqualified, narcissistic grotesque with the flair of a professional scam artist.

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Golden Key
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I heard about this yesterday.

"INDIVISIBLE: A PRACTICAL GUIDE FOR RESISTING THE TRUMP AGENDA. Former congressional staffers reveal best practices for making Congress listen." (Indivisible Guide)

I've skimmed through it. Basically, how to effectively interact with your Congress peeps, and how to organize a local group. Available in English and Spanish; and in HTML, printer-friendly, and downloadable formats.

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I think the most important question is at the end. How could such a man as DT be elected? We don't really know. A significant chunk of the voting population (but not the majority, thank God) were either deceived or deluded.

No they weren't. That's the delusional excuse of the middle class left who feel guilty for being educated and not being working class. It's the same as the way as Christians we often feel so guilty about suggesting that someone is bad, that we excuse malevolence by saying the perpetrator is mentally disturbed or a victim of psychological damage from their upbringing.

Nobody voted Trump who wasn't entirely capable of seeing and knowing that he was telling lies on a gigantic scale. They chose, knowingly, to close their ears and brains to this self-evident fact, to prefer wishful thinking and fervid emotion to the responsible exercise of citizenship. There is no excuse.

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Golden Key
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Enoch--

No.

People always have reasons for what they do, even if they're not aware of the reasons, and all sorts of factors contributing. And, much as I hate the results of this election, and rage about it, and want to grab people and ask what the hell is wrong with them...that applies to everyone who voted, whichever way they voted.

Your argued judgment comes across like two-ton granite tablets handed down cooperatively from Mt. Sinai, Mt. Olympus, and any other such place. There's no mercy, no allowance for the realities of life.

Do you take the same attitude towards people in your own country?

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RuthW

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Will the march give rise to a movement? Only time will tell. 1 of every 100 Americans turned out that day, and there does seem to be some good follow-up work taking place, so I am hopeful. If the tea party can do it, so can we.
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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Enoch--

No.

People always have reasons for what they do, even if they're not aware of the reasons, and all sorts of factors contributing.

It does not follow that if a person can produce a reason why they do something, that reason must be a good one or a legitimate one.
quote:
And, much as I hate the results of this election, and rage about it, and want to grab people and ask what the hell is wrong with them...that applies to everyone who voted, whichever way they voted.

Your argued judgment comes across like two-ton granite tablets handed down cooperatively from Mt. Sinai, Mt. Olympus, and any other such place. There's no mercy, no allowance for the realities of life.

Do you take the same attitude towards people in your own country?

Why not?

I agree with you that this may sound judgemental, but this is a very rare instance. It may be unique

The election of Trump is a very, very rare case where I think one has to conclude that it is clearly and objectively sinful to have voted for him. It really is a very unusual situation. Usually, the public have wickedness done to them by those in power over them. They don't usually get put in a situation where there is an obvious direct choice where to decide one way is morally wrong. I'm not sure that I can think of any other case in my lifetime, when one can say that it is actually morally wrong to vote in a particular way, rather than that I happen personally to think it was foolish, wrong-headed or short-sighted. The only possible others that spring to mind, but I don't know enough about the facts, have been when the candidate was Silvio Berlusconi.

In all normal circumstances, there a a balance of reasons why a person might choose to vote one way or the other. One isn't normally either able or entitled to say that there is one right way to do that balancing exercise, and all those who came to a different conclusion were wrong.

On Brexit, for example, I think the public has voted stupidly. But neither Remain, nor Leave were either 'the cause of God' or a single issue clear moral choice. Some people voted Leave for sinful reasons. Those who did may have swayed the result. Xenophobia is a sin, but not all the Leave voters voted that way because they are xenophobic. There may also have been some who voted Remain for reasons that for them were sinful.

Trump, though, is something different. And it isn't just about politics or ideology.

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

The election of Trump is a very, very rare case where I think one has to conclude that it is clearly and objectively sinful to have voted for him. It really is a very unusual situation. Usually, the public have wickedness done to them by those in power over them. They don't usually get put in a situation where there is an obvious direct choice where to decide one way is morally wrong.

You make it sound as though the alternative would have been morally right. Is that objectively the case?

I imagine that for many Americans, it was a case of choosing between two highly undesirable and even dangerous candidates, in which case you'd have to argue voting for either would have been a sin....

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

The election of Trump is a very, very rare case where I think one has to conclude that it is clearly and objectively sinful to have voted for him. It really is a very unusual situation. Usually, the public have wickedness done to them by those in power over them. They don't usually get put in a situation where there is an obvious direct choice where to decide one way is morally wrong.

You make it sound as though the alternative would have been morally right. Is that objectively the case?

I imagine that for many Americans, it was a case of choosing between two highly undesirable and even dangerous candidates, in which case you'd have to argue voting for either would have been a sin....

No. I'm not saying anything of the kind. That is an over-binary way of looking at this. It isn't that any moral righteousness pertains to Mrs Clinton. She was just 'any normal candidate'. In any normal circumstances, there would have been good and bad reasons for voting for her or her opponent. It's that the combination of the personal qualities of one particular candidate and what he holds himself out as standing for make one of the choices a moral issue.

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Martin60
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I don't understand the point of pointing out the sins of the electorate and their representatives, thanking God how liberal and enlightened we are, trying to make ourselves feel good whilst alienating ourselves further from ... 'them'.

On the same spectrum a beloved family member was liking the punching of Nazis, for whom another is an apologist, on FB this morning.

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Love wins

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rolyn
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However the trump legacy turns out there can be little doubt that his campaign did touch on a base common denominator that exists in every human heart. How he was able to do this, when most thought we lived in an age where racism, sexism and bigotry had gone into terminal decline, will remain open to debate for a long while.

Having said all that I do not think condemning people who voted for him is such a good idea, and bandying the 'S' word about is liable to heighten emotions and cause further entrenchment. We are not into 'good men did nothing' territory here. A period of calm reflection is required by people on all sides of the various barricades.

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Martin60
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Hell could freeze over, let's take them over a cup of tea, offer a fag, ask about their kids.

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Love wins

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Alan Cresswell

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I think offering Trump supporters a fag may result in an, erm, interesting reaction.

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Brenda Clough
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I think the people turned away at airports cannot afford to wait for us to reflect in calm. If we do not act now we may pass the point where action has any effect. There is such a thing as the point of no return.

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Stercus Tauri
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This article in the Toronto Star by a good friend explains nicely why two women in their late 60s felt it was worth a 500 or so mile bus ride to Washington and back, proving that not all Americans can be induced to vote against their country's and the world's interests, putting an ignorant and dangerous oaf in the White House. I have a photo of them wearing their pink pussy hats and holding their signs as they leave - something I'll cherish for a long time. Marching made a difference to them last week and it will carry on motivating them for a long time to come.

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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)

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Martin60
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What, Alan, if I smiled, archly raised a plucked mascarraed eyebrow, accentuating the mauve eyelid, offered a cigarette and said 'Fag?' in my best Quentin Crisp English, to a full blooded, bull necked red neck, could go wrong?

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Stercus Tauri
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
What, Alan, if I smiled, archly raised a plucked mascarraed eyebrow, accentuating the mauve eyelid, offered a cigarette and said 'Fag?' in my best Quentin Crisp English, to a full blooded, bull necked red neck, could go wrong?

A colleague who had recently given up smoking, announced in a bar in Arizona at the end of a long day of flight testing, that he was dying for a fag. The place went silent until people processed the fact that the words had been spoken with an English accent. It was briefly quite tense in there.

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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)

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Brenda Clough
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Ah, two nations divided by a common tongue.

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Golden Key
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{H/As: I'm not sure of the protocol on sharing this. It's an e-mail I got from the official Democratic party site, Democrats.org. I couldn't find a copy on the site. Otherwise, I would've linked to it. If sharing this e-mail isn't acceptable, please feel free to amend or delete it. Thx!}

I'm on the mailing list for the Democratic party, and they sent me an e-mail that's pertinent to the thread. It's about protestors--fining them, and even running them over and killing them. I haven't fact-checked it.

quote:
Friend --

Donald Trump's two weeks of major announcements have dominated the news cycle -- and it's giving Republicans in state legislatures cover to introduce some truly reprehensible bills that violate our First Amendment right to protest this administration.

In North Dakota, where thousands have organized against the Dakota Access Pipeline, a Republican has introduced a bill that would allow motorists to run over and kill people who protest on highways.

An Iowa Republican has proposed charging protesters who peacefully block highways with a felony, which would strip convicted protesters of their right to vote along with up to five years in prison and a $7,500 fine.

A committee of the Minnesota House recently moved forward with a bill that would fine protesters whenever the police attend their rallies and events.

These are direct attacks on our constitutional right as citizens to peacefully assemble, and they underscore how important it is for us to win elections at every level.

This is where our comeback begins. To defeat Trump in 2020, then we have to go state-by-state, city-by-city, block-by-block, and door-by-door to put Democrats in office -- for governor, mayor, city council, state legislature, you name it -- who will fight his administration tooth and nail.

We're counting on grassroots supporters right now, because state and local elections this year and in 2018 will be here before you know it.

I left out the fundraising stuff at the end.

[ 03. February 2017, 02:32: Message edited by: Golden Key ]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Brenda Clough
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Peaceful assembly is explicitly protected in the Constitution -- I doubt a ban would stand up in court.

A protest is planned for April 15, tax day in the US, down at the White House to call upon Lyin' Donald to give up his tax returns, as he promised he would. Scientists are planning to march on April 22, the week following. I am knitting pink hats as fast as I can, and am mulling over signs. I am thinking of "Orwell Warned Us!" and a matching one "Heinlein Warned Us!"

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Nicolemr
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There's a rally planned for President's Day at Trump Tower.

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Penny S
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# 14768

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A wicked thought has suggested getting a choir together to perform this. Go on, click it. If I label it, it will spoil the joke.

I think it is totally safe. But noisy. In a nice, classical way. If you like that sort of thing. DT might want a bucket of cold water to be thrown, though.

[ 08. February 2017, 08:40: Message edited by: Penny S ]

Posts: 5758 | Registered: May 2009  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
A wicked thought has suggested getting a choir together to perform this. Go on, click it. If I label it, it will spoil the joke.

I think it is totally safe. But noisy. In a nice, classical way. If you like that sort of thing. DT might want a bucket of cold water to be thrown, though.

That definitely gets a [Overused] . Possibly even deserves [Overused] [Overused] Thank you.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7235 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768

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Thank you.
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Bene Gesserit
Shipmate
# 14718

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What Enoch said.

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Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus

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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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A friend just emailed me about the Ides of Trump. I won't post the link here, but Google is your friend.

They're trying to organize a record-breaking number of postcards mailed on March 15 to "President (for now) Donald J. Trump", saying what we think of him.


[Snigger]

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Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

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