homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | Register | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Purgatory   » Christian Vision for Men - countering romanticisation and feminisation of church? (Page 2)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Christian Vision for Men - countering romanticisation and feminisation of church?
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618

 - Posted      Profile for betjemaniac     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Why would a boy choose to come to church? Any late Gen Xer through Z?

Well I'm a clear case of belief following practice - age 36, forced to go to chapel at school, then didn't bother with anything at all at university. Then joined the navy and was forced to go every week again during training. That time, it "took."

Of course, it helped that by that stage I could recite great chunks of the BCP by heart and had a good working knowledge of Hymns A&M. Go through it for long enough without thinking about it and you might find by the end that you *are* thinking about it.

Basically, I was boiled like a frog. I'm the only one in my family who goes.

--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....

Posts: 1161 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013  |  IP: Logged
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116

 - Posted      Profile for Mudfrog   Email Mudfrog   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Christianity was originally a religion mostly for women and slaves and others with less power. As Christianity became politically powerful that changed, but I think it could be said that it is simply reversing that process. As Christianity wields less social power in the West, it holds less appeal for men. Groups like CVM who tell churches that they're too feminine because they have bad coffee and children's drawings up (because women just LOVE bad coffee, and it's good for men to not value children in church /s) miss the point.

This.

Look, if the men in church want to get together and drink good coffee/ complain about their wives/ bang drums/ play nerf guns or whatever rings their bell, fine. But I am so so tired of all this whining and moaning about the "feminization" of the church-- an institution where women still struggle to be given any voice or leadership capacity.

I wrote more but had to delete it because it was just to hellish.

The Salvation Army(my tradition)
Church of England
The Methodist Church
The Baptist Church

etc

You can moan about the Roman Catholics and some evangelical groups if you like, but here in the UK most churches have women leaders in abundance.

The Salvation Army has had them since 1860

Female Ministry - a Woman's Right to Preach

--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 7913 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967

 - Posted      Profile for SvitlanaV2   Email SvitlanaV2   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Moreover, I think it's a mistake to confuse 'voice' and 'leadership'. A congregation will surely have have some kind of 'voice', although how much and what kind will depend on the denomination.

To suggest otherwise gives the impression that the laity are essentially 'voiceless' and that the clergy have all the power. This is a very disturbing idea (especially in Protestantism!) with implications that go beyond the issue of women in ordained ministry.

Posts: 5926 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Look I'm an ordained clergy woman so obviously I'm aware that there is a (relatively) long and rich tradition of female ordination. And I do of course agree that laity have a voice and influence, as well they should. Yet as an insider I can say with assurance that female voices, both lay and oradained, do.not have the same hearing that male voices do in most denominations, even more progressive ones. For the most part I'm happy with my lot-- things are improving. It was only in this context that I'm comaining-- when you've got people in a place of privilege.whining about having to share seats at the table

[ 24. March 2017, 18:03: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 10389 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
# 15978

 - Posted      Profile for mark_in_manchester   Email mark_in_manchester   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I thought I might add something about the political angle of all this - which I know is important, especially perhaps to those whose context gives them a sense of being discriminated against by men - but which is, in my experience, rather orthogonal to whatever is going on at the 'men's event'.

This means the political angle of the OP 'reclaiming' this that and the other etc etc - sounds rather incongruous to this attender of men's events. IME they're not about that - instead they're about a bunch of mostly socially-awkward men finding time and space to talk to each other about their lives and Faith. This has been true in the Methodist events I attended a long time ago, and is still true in the RC ones I currently attend.

The absence of wives (there are some single men, but given the demographic it is mostly wives, and not unattached church-women, who are absent) changes the way men interact, in a good way. This is not (of course) to say that all these men wish they were perpetually single, though some may - but a day off with other men now and again, talking about God, does us good.

That's about it, as far as I can see. I don't see much difference in how men are with each other whether they're Methodist and very used to women in charge of the church, or RC and voluntarily subject to a male hierarchy.

--------------------
"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)

Posts: 1335 | Registered: Oct 2010  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yeah, it's mainly harmless twaddle. Apart from the opportunity cost.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 15125 | From: More Corieltauvi than Dobunni now. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967

 - Posted      Profile for SvitlanaV2   Email SvitlanaV2   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
As an insider I can say with assurance that female voices, both lay and ordained, do not have the same hearing that male voices do in most denominations, even more progressive ones.

But the interesting question is why this is so, when women are in the majority in many congregations.

Some might argue that the minority status of men in some churches actually enhances their value, making female worshippers more acquiescent than they would otherwise be.

In other churches, though, the laywomen might be so used to dominating church culture, leading worship and doing things their own way so that the issue of men not 'hearing' them would be more or less irrelevant. I think British Methodism leans in this direction, although I have no idea how much discrimination exists higher up the ladder.

Personality and background are also factors, I should think. Churchgoing laywomen are statistically likely to be more 'traditional' than women at large (and also older, especially in mainstream denominations). Women clergy are less so, obviously so with regards to their own ordained status, so there may be a lack of sisterly pulling together in many cases.

I also wonder about the reasons why male clergy, or men in the church generally, might not be 'hearing' women in the church. As well as theology and culture I think there might, again, be personality issues at play.

For those who are interested I've come across an interesting and relevant dissertation about women and Biblical literalism in the the CofE, as well as a brand new book about the attitudes of elderly Anglican women who are the backbone of their church in Britain.

Posts: 5926 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175

 - Posted      Profile for Pomona   Email Pomona   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Christianity was originally a religion mostly for women and slaves and others with less power. As Christianity became politically powerful that changed, but I think it could be said that it is simply reversing that process. As Christianity wields less social power in the West, it holds less appeal for men. Groups like CVM who tell churches that they're too feminine because they have bad coffee and children's drawings up (because women just LOVE bad coffee, and it's good for men to not value children in church /s) miss the point.

This.

Look, if the men in church want to get together and drink good coffee/ complain about their wives/ bang drums/ play nerf guns or whatever rings their bell, fine. But I am so so tired of all this whining and moaning about the "feminization" of the church-- an institution where women still struggle to be given any voice or leadership capacity.

I wrote more but had to delete it because it was just to hellish.

The Salvation Army(my tradition)
Church of England
The Methodist Church
The Baptist Church

etc

You can moan about the Roman Catholics and some evangelical groups if you like, but here in the UK most churches have women leaders in abundance.

The Salvation Army has had them since 1860

Female Ministry - a Woman's Right to Preach

With the exception of your place - which I would agree were real pioneers in the area of women's leadership in the Church - and the Methodists, most mainstream denominations still have a vocal minority opposed to women's leadership and the ongoing issues with it in the CoE can't have escaped your notice. I think there's also quite a big difference between having women in leadership and being 'feminised'. The RCC may have only male clergy but women dominate the laity to a huge degree. Your average Catholic in the UK will be a woman. I think that is less true of some Nonconformist churches, even ones with women in leadership or who support it. Indeed, there are plenty of trad RCs who moan about the feminisation of the church and ban altar girls etc, despite having one particular woman in a very central place in the faith....!

--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

Posts: 5185 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012  |  IP: Logged
Leprechaun

Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408

 - Posted      Profile for Leprechaun     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'm not sure that that feminisation is being used pejoratively here. I don't know what the situation is across the pond, but in the UK lots more women come to church than men. The effect of that is that activities and attitudes that women tend to prefer are more common in church life that activities and attitudes than men tend to prefer. So it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy that church is more for women than men.

Now you could say, and I would agree, that mature Christian men should learn to appreciate the gifts of their sisters and get over church being different that they might have designed it to be.

However, I think it's a bit much to expect people who aren't Christians yet or who find Christianity a huge struggle to deal with the culture gap.CVM and similar groups are trying to bridge that gap, because lots of men don't like traditionally feminine pursuits. Stereotypes don't come from nowhere.

Posts: 3067 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
Check out Reform magazine
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
  ship of fools