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Source: (consider it) Thread: Nurse disciplined for praying with patients
mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Garden Hermit:
I suppose praying for you is better than getting fired up and setting off to Syria to fight with ISIS.

What a stupid thing to say which would make no sense when talking about anything else.

"Oh well, at least she's not doing this other really dumb thing. She's not a serial killer, so let's forget that she's stolen £5 from an old lady."

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Garden Hermit
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Garden Hermit:
I suppose praying for you is better than getting fired up and setting off to Syria to fight with ISIS.

What a stupid thing to say which would make no sense when talking about anything else.

"Oh well, at least she's not doing this other really dumb thing. She's not a serial killer, so let's forget that she's stolen £5 from an old lady."

Its meant to show that when some people get 'religion' they do lots of things which are 'not normal'.

Christians these days do things which are much less violent than Muslims - although it wasn't too long ago the situation was reversed.

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Garden Hermit
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Garden Hermit:
I suppose praying for you is better than getting fired up and setting off to Syria to fight with ISIS.

What a stupid thing to say which would make no sense when talking about anything else.

"Oh well, at least she's not doing this other really dumb thing. She's not a serial killer, so let's forget that she's stolen £5 from an old lady."

Its meant to show that when some people get 'religion' they do lots of things which are 'not normal'.

Christians these days do things which are much less violent than Muslims - although it wasn't too long ago the situation was reversed.

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Garden Hermit:

Christians these days do things which are much less violent than Muslims - although it wasn't too long ago the situation was reversed.

I've had Muslim colleagues tell me that they were praying for me, and I'm happy for them to do so (and to tell me) even though I think they're wrong about God.

I have never had anyone offer to commit an act of terror on my behalf.

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Nicolemr
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quote:
Christians these days do things which are much less violent than Muslims
Yeah, they just bomb abortion clinics and shoot doctors. [Roll Eyes]

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Anglican_Brat
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
quote:
Christians these days do things which are much less violent than Muslims
Yeah, they just bomb abortion clinics and shoot doctors. [Roll Eyes]
One thing I noted is that in the media, people don't really talk about religious affiliation when white Anglo-saxons commit illicit acts. No one talks about Christians for example, driving drunk, or joining gangs, though presumably there are drunk drivers and gang members who might have been baptized/have a residual Christian identity.

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Mudfrog
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One thing that none of you seem to have picked up on is that this nurses' job was actually to help patients fill in a form, on which was the question that asked what their religion was.

As far as I can tell from watching an interview with the lady, the religious conversation stemmed from the filling in of the form and specifically that question. It's not that she asked the patients if she could pray with them out of the blue!

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G.K. Chesterton

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Garden Hermit:
Is it Racist to say that Black Christians are much more vocal about their Faith than anyone else ? I have met several and I am bowled over by their enthusiasm. Is this more a Cultural thing than Religious ?

If you think it is because of their colour, then yes. I've met exceedingly pale, excessively vocal Christians. And I've met very repressed Christians who are black.
And, BTW, there is no black culture in any monolithic sense.

I think there's certainly a cultural issue here, but perhaps more specifically a West African Christian one.

If this woman had mixed more widely she'd know full well that religion is a private matter here, and the indigenous population don't generally want strangers to offer to pray with them (maybe for them, but even that's very touch and go).

We don't know how long this woman has been in the UK, though. One study I heard about said that the faith of Africans who'd been in the UK for many years was more restrained than that of those who'd been here for a shorter time. If she's been here for decades then she's certainly missed the memo.

I don't know why her previous warnings didn't get through to her, but I hope she finds a more suitable setting soon.

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Ethne Alba
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Medford, there is filling in forms....and filling in forms.

I have filled many of those forms and i fail to see how i could end up with a conversation like the one talked about , up thread.

However much i Might want to talk endlessly about My Own Opinions of prayer, as a member of the nursing team there is a form to be filled in and (lots of) work to do.


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[ 03. April 2017, 18:07: Message edited by: Ethne Alba ]

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Penny S
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Yesterday I overheard, unvoluntarily, just such a conversation associated with form filling. It went from discussing wish for resuscitation to had the patient thought about what would happen after death (cremation), to did she wish to speak with the chaplaincy team at all. All based on the patient's responses, and never going anywhere about the person filling the (assumed) form in. Quite proper, and I couldn't see how it could develop into the direction it did with the nurse in the story.
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Adeodatus
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When a patient is admitted to hospital, it's common for a few questions to be asked so that the patient can have access to spiritual care. But I can't imagine a way through those questions that leads to "Would you like me to pray for you?"

The problem is, spiritual care in the NHS is still a bit of a mess. If a Trust is supportive of it, funds a professional spiritual care team, and acts on their advice, then things like this really needn't happen. But there are still places where spiritual care isn't properly funded, isn't given much attention by management, and isn't involved in things like staff training.

There are guidelines - including some published by NICE - which, if followed, would make situations like this vanishingly improbable. I'm not saying this Trust wasn't following guidelines, but when I hear stories like this, my antennae twitch, and in the past have often twitched with a degree of justification. Under NICE guidelines, nursing staff are to have some basic working knowledge of religion and spirituality; be able to have conversations at the level of conducting an assessment of patients' need; and know how and when to refer a patient to the care of the spiritual care team. The last point is crucial. What it isn't, is chaplains taking all spiritual care out of everyone else's hands and saying that nurses mustn't have any ingoing role in it. What it is, is chaplains being involved above a certain basic level so that conversations, offers of prayer, and suchlike, are carried out with a degree of sensitivity whose need may not always be apparent to inexperienced or untrained staff.

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mr cheesy
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I suppose I can see how this might happen and how the nurse might feel that this was the Right Thing to do.

Someone arrives who is very sick, the nurse is the only person about (and isn't able to get hold of a chaplain), the patient is upset and the nurse feels (for whatever reason) that she has something religiously in common.

So I'm imagining that the nurse is a Sikh, the patient is a really sick person who is obviously a religious Sikh. The nearest Sikh chaplain is in bed, and it isn't easy to call whoever-it-is that might be appropriate. The patient is upset and the nurse wants to give some comforting spiritual words from that shared religious experience.

I think we might think in that circumstance that whispering something to the patient which calms them from their own religious tradition was unfortunate, but understandable, given the circumstances. Particularly if the effect was to bring some comfort to him.

The problem might be that if someone imagines that this - probably unusual and unlikely scenario - is somehow acceptable then much more mundane daily offers of prayer are appropriate for the nurse. And the lines get blurred, within the nurse's head if nowhere else.

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mr cheesy
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Moreover, if the patient thought it was an OK thing to do and it was the employer who saw it as problematic, I can see how the nurse might feel aggrieved.

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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orfeo

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Freedom of religion has to mean freedom from religion as well, the freedom to not have a religion.

And more importantly the freedom to not have the religion of others imposed on you, whether you have one of your own or not. There is something very off putting about a person saying that THEIR freedom of religion extends so far as to make a significant intrusion into the very personal psychological space of another person.

More than anything, it's very difficult for a person in this sort of situation, when asked "can I pray for you?", to turn around and say no. How do you reject an offer from a nurse who is entrusted with your care?

To me, that difficulty is a significant reason why the question shouldn't be asked in the first place. It becomes a situation where the nurse is comfortable and happy at the expense of the patient.

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mr cheesy
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I agree and I said as much above. But I was trying to reflect and get into the mindset of why the nurse might think this was appropriate.

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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Adeodatus
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You're right, orfeo - even in deliciously irreligious Britain, refusing an offer of prayer is as difficult as saying you hate puppies. Besides, there are other factors such as the professional-patient relationship and the "sanctity" or otherwise of the patient's room or bed space - it all contributes to a very tricky dynamic, and nurses should understand that they're in a position of considerable "clout" in any conversation with a patient.

But you're right, too, mr cheesy - if no spiritual care professional can be got hold of, then of course the ward staff should do their best, and I would certainly be on the side of a nurse who'd found herself in that position. Minority faith groups who don't have formal representation on the spiritual care team are always at a disadvantage, because the situation you describe does happen: a need is expressed, but no faith representative can be got hold of. That situation is one of the regular "heartsink" moments of whoever's job it is to make spiritual care happen.

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Garden Hermit
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Another 'difficult situation' is when someone tells you they have been bereaved. No-one knows what to say these days, and says nothing, and when they see the other person again deliberately cross the road to avoid another difficult conversation.
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Bishops Finger
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Yes indeed - but that's perhaps a topic for another thread.

If, OTOH, a nurse is told by a patient that they (the patient) have recently been bereaved, an appropriate response might be 'I'm sorry to hear that. Would you like to talk about it?', without offering prayer or whatever.

Just a thought.

IJ

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Anselmina
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
One thing that none of you seem to have picked up on is that this nurses' job was actually to help patients fill in a form, on which was the question that asked what their religion was.

As far as I can tell from watching an interview with the lady, the religious conversation stemmed from the filling in of the form and specifically that question. It's not that she asked the patients if she could pray with them out of the blue!

Filling in the form was her job. Preaching her version of the gospel - to a patient - wasn't. So all the more reason for the nurse to make sure she didn't blur boundary lines.

They are the patients - vulnerable and unable to get away from someone preaching about how much more likely it is they'll get healed if they pray. Which is another way of saying: if you don't pray, you're more likely to die.

Would you really want to be in the hands of someone who doesn't even exercise common-sense boundaries? How would you like your sick, possibly dying relative to have to cope with a conversation like that right before surgery, in a situation where they don't have the physical capacity to remove themselves from the situation?

She may have possessed some compassion but her over-riding actions here were motivated by her personal driver to fulfil her own vision of faith regardless of whether it was invited or welcomed. In any other context it would be called insensitivity and arrogance.

I personally would've been appalled and very angry for anyone - even a chaplain - to have told me what she told that patient. She should have known better.

(ETA: better grammar!)

[ 04. April 2017, 13:50: Message edited by: Anselmina ]

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mr cheesy
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Anselmina, what did you make of my thought experiment regarding a Sikh nurse above? Did that make you equally angry?

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Bishops Finger
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On that subject (and it's an interesting question), how would a devout Sikh nurse know that her Sikh patient was equally devout? I dare say there are degrees and levels of faith and devotion in Sikhism, as there are in Islam, Christianity etc., with many who claim those faiths being lapsed or non-practising.

IJ

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Garden Hermit
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Religion is such a difficult subject to talk about. Its difficult enough in a Church - and most of the people there want to listen. As is Politics and Sex. No wonder it was banned in polite company many years ago.
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Bishops Finger
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Good Heavens, Sir - are you saying that you are not in Polite Company here?

Is Outrage!

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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Mudfrog
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I think the use on this thread of the word 'preach' is prejudiced. No one is saying she 'preached' to the patients. In the course of a conversation about their religious affiliation it seems she offered to pray.
That's not preaching.

I find the idea that offering to pray will somehow offend or frighten a vulnerable patient is about as ridiculous as suggesting that the presence of a chapel in the main corridor to the wards is also a threatening reminder that we are all going to die!

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G.K. Chesterton

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SvitlanaV2
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I remembering reading once about some research that had been done into the efficacy of prayer for the sick.

The most memorable finding, as I recall, was that for strong Christians offers of prayer were joyfully accepted and the prayers seemed beneficial, but for those who were somewhat more agnostic or nominal in their faith, offers of prayer were unnerving, and these patients become more anxious than before, rather than feeling better.

It's easy to forget that not everyone has a deep faith in a God who loves and forgives them. Not everyone has positive experiences of prayer. Being consciously prayed for - or with - is surely a rare experience for the average secular British person; when it happens it may just confirm their fear of being at death's door. And if they're neither convinced of salvation nor committed atheists I can see why this would be unpleasant for them.

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Martin60
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It's incredibly discouraging. Nobody better dare for me, as I'll pray right back.

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Love wins

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Anselmina
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Anselmina, what did you make of my thought experiment regarding a Sikh nurse above? Did that make you equally angry?

I don't know how varied Sikhism is. So I don't know if there's a lot of variation in how it's practiced.

For example, the Christian nurse expresses a view of healing and prayer within Christianity that I feel is at best naive and at worst abusive. So if I were a Sikh, and a nurse expressing such a view of our shared Sikh faith spoke to me in that way, I would be appalled and angry. I would feel trapped and 'got at', moreso because I am confined to a bed and a captive audience.

I would understand - as I would as a Christian - that the nurse was responding to some conscience-led impulse to do the right thing. I wouldn't complain. But why should I, in my condition, have to take on the burden of her conscience-inspired promptings? In my opinion, the nurse would be behaving unwisely and insensitively.

Now it may be that in Sikhism there are permissions within that religion to override working agreements to not invade patient privacy or whatever. But to me one of the beauties of Christlikeness is that one can be Christlike, without having to use dogma or 'preaching', and be effective by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Could the nurse not have trusted God to have understood her prayers for the patient? Why did she feel the need to tell a vulnerable, fearful person that they had a better chance of recovery if they suddenly acquired a more prayerful faith? Is her idea of God so limited that only self-referencing prayers work?

I'm sorry that she's lost her job. And I can see that, to her, she was doing God's work. But her primary purpose was to nurse, which she was still able to do in the strength of the God she believed in; a God fully capable of grasping complex, sensitive situations. I think that if the patient had wanted what she was offering, on top of that, it would've been obvious. And I think this was one of those instances where we don't need to have a soap-box approach to faith to be effective.

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Bishops Finger
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What Anselmina and SvitlanaV2 have said.

[Overused]

IJ

(And, whilst I don't for one nanosecond wish him to be in that situation, I'd just love to hear Martin 'pray right back' at 'em!)

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Could the nurse not have trusted God to have understood her prayers for the patient? Why did she feel the need to tell a vulnerable, fearful person that they had a better chance of recovery if they suddenly acquired a more prayerful faith? Is her idea of God so limited that only self-referencing prayers work?

The cynical part of me thinks she was hoping to be able to give a Testimony to her church about how she'd prayed Words Of Power that Healed a patient, in order to show how strong a Prayer Warrior she is.

Or maybe even that she was hoping the Healing caused by her Prayer would cause the patient to Turn To Christ, so that the patient could come to her church and Testify about how she was Healed and Brought To The Light by the nurse's Powerful Faith.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Tubbs

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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
One thing that none of you seem to have picked up on is that this nurses' job was actually to help patients fill in a form, on which was the question that asked what their religion was.

As far as I can tell from watching an interview with the lady, the religious conversation stemmed from the filling in of the form and specifically that question. It's not that she asked the patients if she could pray with them out of the blue!

I've had those forms filled in for me. They're intended as a way for staff to gather information not a conversation starter.

You're forgetting that eight patients complained about her talking to them about religion. She was asked by management to stop and sacked when she didn't.

When you sack someone there are a ton of due processes you're meant to go through. It's difficult to believe that she didn't understand the potential consequences for her of ignoring that request.

Tubbs

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I venture to disagree. I find it both suspicious and disturbing that the people mangers seem to pick on in these sort of cases always seem to be ethnic, female, or in this case, both. Odd, or one could say, fishy.

All people are ethnic, or none. To divide humanity into "non-ethnic" (the "default" which of course happens to be white) and "ethnic" (different from default/normal) is grossly offensive.

quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
I remember being told by a former nurse, who was looking after a young mother on her ward that she was so upset by her plight - she looked to be dying - that when she was on the night shift she took the opportunity afforded by solitude in the midst of sleep to anoint the woman with the oil consecrated for the purpose. The young woman subsequently recovered - make of that what you will.

I make of it confirmation bias.

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
As far as I can tell from watching an interview with the lady, the religious conversation stemmed from the filling in of the form and specifically that question. It's not that she asked the patients if she could pray with them out of the blue!

Having a real hard time here believing that she was fired after being reprimanded multiple times for ... doing her job. Not buying it.

quote:
Originally posted by Garden Hermit:
Another 'difficult situation' is when someone tells you they have been bereaved. No-one knows what to say these days, and says nothing, and when they see the other person again deliberately cross the road to avoid another difficult conversation.

Bull. One says, "I'm so very sorry." If one is a close friend or relative, one offers to do something to help such as bring food. One such might inquire if there is going to be any service, and express the desire to be informed of the time and location, and the intention to be there. If someone doesn't know what to say, they're an idiot.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Gamaliel
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I think the use on this thread of the word 'preach' is prejudiced. No one is saying she 'preached' to the patients. In the course of a conversation about their religious affiliation it seems she offered to pray.
That's not preaching.

I find the idea that offering to pray will somehow offend or frighten a vulnerable patient is about as ridiculous as suggesting that the presence of a chapel in the main corridor to the wards is also a threatening reminder that we are all going to die!

Then why did eight patients complain?

I can't believe that they were orchestrated in some way or that they had a confab and clubbed together in order to get the nurse sacked.

I'm about as cynical of management as it is possible to be but even I find that hard to swallow.

Of course, I don't know all the details of the case but if 8 people complained then it all likelihood there could have been far more who weren't happy about it but who let it slide.

Yes, there are perennial complainers and people who like to make a fuss about each and every issue - I'm on the town council so I know all about that ...

But for there to be persistent complaints and a persistent refusal to obey instructions to desist then it rather suggests that things had got to a pretty pass.

It's not easy to sack people in highly regulated organisations so there must have been a case to answer.

Ok, it is possible for managers to manipulate people out of jobs but from what I've read here it doesn't strike me as anything intrinsically 'anti-Christian' or anti-faith.

I don't doubt the sincerity of the nurse's faith nor her integrity - but you can't repeatedly ignore instructions/orders and hope that by appealing to a Higher Power you can escape the consequences.

Sure, there are times when it might be appropriate to offer prayer or counsel but from the info we've been given here it rather looks as if the nurse was over-stepping the mark ... and yes, I fully accept that the mark isn't set very highly here in the UK where the merest hint of religion is likely to scare the horses ...

But that's the way it is.

Heck, my wife has incurable cancer but if someone were to approach/accost her to offer prayer in a way we considered invasive or inappropriate we'd be rather annoyed. In fact, when she had the first bout a few years ago, the primary cancer, I sent a polite but rather stiff email to the vicar after his wife bounced up to wife after a morning service and tried to pray for her in a way we weren't comfortable with.

We have to be careful how we go about these things - and if that applies outside of the hospital context, how much more should it apply inside one.

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Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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Ethne Alba
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Mudfrog....(and apologies for the totally wrong name attributed to you upthread...my bad)

The "preach" bit was i guess thrown into the mix because that is what sometimes some people call it when Christians go on about our faith...when no one has asked us to.

And leading on from the questions on that form to a whole other conversation about the effectiveness or otherwise of prayer, could i suggest be termed preaching?

And it's not a compliment to be spoken of in that way either.
.
.
.

Up until now i have responded in theory only.
But recently i was in hospital and potentially very serious it was too. Had any member of the nursing team said anything like that to me, it would have reduced me to a quivering wreck. It's quite bad enough being ill, not really knowing what is going to happen next and in hospital anyway, without the indignity of being held captive in a conversation with someone that i don't know.

Would i have complained?
I hope not. I hope that i would have merely had a stern word with the nurse face to face.
But in reality, when one member of the conversation is fully dressed and in a uniform at that. While the other is undressed and potentially in bed. I suggest that the power scenario has not been properly thought through by the nurse.
.
.
.

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I find it both suspicious and disturbing that the people mangers seem to pick on in these sort of cases always seem to be ethnic, female, or in this case, both.

This surely reflects the relatively high number of such people in nursing and related professions in the UK.

Unlike others here I think this reality could create an ongoing cultural issue in the UK. As the indigenous population ages and has fewer children in each generation to step into these jobs the number of workers from abroad is likely to increase.

This is fine, but newcomers' religious attitudes won't align themselves with those of the wider culture automatically. Indeed, there's a chance that cultural and religious understanding will decline rather than increase, as the newcomers begin to share less and less religious ground with the indigenous population. (Fewer than half of the latter now identify as Christian).

Special classes in cultural awareness for all nurses, whether trained in the UK or abroad, might need to be introduced.

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Huia
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
[QUOTE]Special classes in cultural awareness for all nurses, whether trained in the UK or abroad, might need to be introduced.

I would be surprised if such classes don't exist already. I know that the nursing degree at the local Polytech has a cultural awareness component.

Huia

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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

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The Phantom Flan Flinger
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Could the nurse not have prayed quietly on her own for these patients without having to make a production about it?

Didn't somebody once say something about not praying to be seen by men (or women)?

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Bishops Finger
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Oh yes, the same chap I usually quote when peeps boast about what they're giving up for Lent......

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
[QUOTE]Special classes in cultural awareness for all nurses, whether trained in the UK or abroad, might need to be introduced.

I would be surprised if such classes don't exist already. I know that the nursing degree at the local Polytech has a cultural awareness component.

Huia

They are part of every Nurse's training in the UK. The major world faiths are explained although on reading the first edition (it may now be changed), it's hard not to come away with the impression that all faiths aren't created equal.
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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
They are part of every Nurse's training in the UK. The major world faiths are explained although on reading the first edition (it may now be changed), it's hard not to come away with the impression that all faiths aren't created equal.

I'm confused by the double-negative in the above. Are you suggesting that the curriculum should be teaching nurses that some faiths are better than others?

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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Bishops Finger
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Hmm. I read it as saying that EM thinks that all faiths should be treated equally under these circumstances.

Which I reckon is about right.

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

Special classes in cultural awareness for all nurses, whether trained in the UK or abroad, might need to be introduced.

I would be surprised if such classes don't exist already. I know that the nursing degree at the local Polytech has a cultural awareness component.

Huia

They are part of every Nurse's training in the UK. The major world faiths are explained although on reading the first edition (it may now be changed), it's hard not to come away with the impression that all faiths aren't created equal.
It's not so much a question of having faiths 'explained' but of understanding the purposes that religion generally serves in a culture like ours.

Most British people who call themselves Christians/CofE/'I believe in something' will have a tangential, personalised, variously influenced and probably deeply uninformed relationship with whatever doctrines any particular denomination 'teaches'. This awareness is what's relevant to nurses working in Britain, I would have thought.

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Gamaliel
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I'm not so sure that the doctrinal issues you mention here are the real nub of this one, SvitlanaV2.

Even the haziest and most nominal Anglican or RC would be aware that religion involves prayer.

It's not as if the nurse has been dismissed for testing someone on the 39 Articles or the RC Catechism, the Westminster Confession or the finer points of the Nicean-Chalcedonian formularies ...

No, she has been dismissed for apparently offering to pray for patients in a way that those patients found inappropriate.

That's got very little to do with whether they understand a particular set of doctrines and more to do with issues of personal privacy or feelings of being taken advantage of or invasiveness.

If you're filling in a form where one of the questions is about your religious affiliation you don't expect a Spanish Inquisition about it nor do you expect the person dealing with the form to suddenly offer prayer for your healing or well-being.

That's not what the form is for.

I can see how it would be appropriate for the nurse to have prayed if someone requested it. 'Would you pray for me, sister?'

But to offer it without any kind of permission or 'lead-in' strikes me as presumptious.

Ok, I get that the nurse may have assumed that because someone entered 'Christian' on the form that this gave her permission to engage them in prayer - but this can't have been her impression for very long as it appears that the management had asked her to desist because of complaints. Not once but several times. Yet she persisted.

I'm sure she acted with integrity according to her lights, as it were, but one would have assumed that having been warned several times and told that people were complaining she might have had sufficient indication that this wasn't the 'done thing'.

I'm not trying to minimise any cultural differences there might have been, but I find it hard to believe that the nurse would have remained unfamiliar with UK cultural practices in this regard after 8 complaints and numerous warnings.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
[QUOTE]Special classes in cultural awareness for all nurses, whether trained in the UK or abroad, might need to be introduced.

I would be surprised if such classes don't exist already. I know that the nursing degree at the local Polytech has a cultural awareness component.

Huia

They are part of every Nurse's training in the UK. The major world faiths are explained although on reading the first edition (it may now be changed), it's hard not to come away with the impression that all faiths aren't created equal.
This wasn't believed to be adequate 11 years ago when I was asked by a hospital chaplain to 'top it up' with some extra training sessions.

[ 07. April 2017, 17:29: Message edited by: leo ]

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My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm not so sure that the doctrinal issues you mention here are the real nub of this one, SvitlanaV2.

Even the haziest and most nominal Anglican or RC would be aware that religion involves prayer.

It's not as if the nurse has been dismissed for testing someone on the 39 Articles or the RC Catechism, the Westminster Confession or the finer points of the Nicean-Chalcedonian formularies ...

No, she has been dismissed for apparently offering to pray for patients in a way that those patients found inappropriate.

[...]

I'm not trying to minimise any cultural differences there might have been, but I find it hard to believe that the nurse would have remained unfamiliar with UK cultural practices in this regard after 8 complaints and numerous warnings.

My point is that those patients found those offers of prayer unpleasant for primarily cultural reasons.

I'd say that British people don't, on the whole, want strangers to pray with them. This will be true regardless of whatever their ancestral faith tradition (which they may cleave to in name only) may teach about the fellowship of all believers, brotherhood in Christ, or the power of prayer, etc. Privacy is a more powerful religion. And fair enough.

The fact that this lady was unable to respond 'appropriately' after all these warnings suggests that she's either lacking in basic comprehension skills, has an inflated view of her own persuasiveness and/or religious calling, or is indeed is still very culturally confused. Probably a mixture. We don't know what her superiors told her other than 'Stop doing it', so she could still be culturally fazed.

Living where she does, it's possible that she doesn't meet enough of the indigenous population on a friendship basis to enable her to get a serious grip on the cultural differences about religion. That's what I think, anyway.

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
[QUOTE]Special classes in cultural awareness for all nurses, whether trained in the UK or abroad, might need to be introduced.

I would be surprised if such classes don't exist already. I know that the nursing degree at the local Polytech has a cultural awareness component.

Huia

They are part of every Nurse's training in the UK. The major world faiths are explained although on reading the first edition (it may now be changed), it's hard not to come away with the impression that all faiths aren't created equal.
This wasn't believed to be adequate 11 years ago when I was asked by a hospital chaplain to 'top it up' with some extra training sessions.
Well, both you and the Chaplain acted illegally.
Posts: 3612 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
Adeodatus
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
[QUOTE]Special classes in cultural awareness for all nurses, whether trained in the UK or abroad, might need to be introduced.

I would be surprised if such classes don't exist already. I know that the nursing degree at the local Polytech has a cultural awareness component.

Huia

They are part of every Nurse's training in the UK. The major world faiths are explained although on reading the first edition (it may now be changed), it's hard not to come away with the impression that all faiths aren't created equal.
Yes, but no. Undergraduate nurse training in spiritual care is patchy at best, and unless something had changed radically since I left the business two years ago, has actually declined, not improved in the past 10 years or so.

While I was in my last post, I was lucky to be supported in developing a series of training sessions: undergraduate, post-qualified, training for spiritual care "link" nurses (who liaised with spiritual care professionals), and specialised training for palliative and end of life care nurses. Even so, these were picked up or dropped from time to time by the people in charge of nurse education. I don't know if there's any real coordination of spiritual care training in nurse education nationally, but the fact that I don't know suggests there probably isn't.

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Adeodatus
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Well, both you and the Chaplain acted illegally.

Eh?

--------------------
"What is broken, repair with gold."

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Enoch
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I discovered yesterday that this case hasn't actually been decided yet. The hearing has taken place, but the tribunal hasn't issued its decision. So
a. We don't actually know the result. And
b. We need to be a bit cautious about how freely we express opinions on what is not 'what we think the decision was' but 'what we'd like/not like it to be'. Otherwise some or all of us could be in contempt.

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Gamaliel
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Well, you might be right there, SvitlanaV2 but I'm going to hang-fire now I've read Enoch's warning.

One assumes that cultural differences and expectations would be taken into account in a case like this, although whether that would mitigate things remains to be seen.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I discovered yesterday that this case hasn't actually been decided yet. The hearing has taken place, but the tribunal hasn't issued its decision. So
a. We don't actually know the result. And
b. We need to be a bit cautious about how freely we express opinions on what is not 'what we think the decision was' but 'what we'd like/not like it to be'. Otherwise some or all of us could be in contempt.

How does that work?

--------------------
Love wins

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