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Source: (consider it) Thread: Taking Kids Out-Of-School
Arabella Purity Winterbottom

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The best example I have is from American friends who live in NZ. They decided when their son was 14 that he should see the States and meet some of his older relatives, a trip that would take 3 months.

They (and their son) presented the school with learning objectives, an outline of the work he would complete in English, Geography and Social Studies. He was also to keep a budget. All to be uploaded to the school's online learning environment 3 times a week.

They stuck to it religiously, and what was great was that his Geography and Social Studies classes used his blog posts as jumping off points for class learning.

His parents would not have done it any later in his school career, as exams started the next year.

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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal

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North East Quine

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Secondary schools in Aberdeenshire have 8 forty minute periods a day, five days a week, so 26 hours, 40 mins of teaching a week, with registration / assembly first thing in addition to that.

What about sport? As I said above, in the private/independent school system here, sport practice and competition is in addition to the 8 by 40 minute school day in lessons, as are all other extra-curricular activities In the public school system, they all form part of the school day times you mention.
Gym / P.E. is included in the school day; team practice for sports teams is an after-school activity. Competitions/ sports leagues would usually be on a Saturday. I'm not sure about music tuition, but orchestra practice is after-school. Other extra-curricular activities, such as chess club, would be a lunchtime activity. My son, with school backing, started and ran a creative writing club as a lunchtime activity.

Cadets are completely separate from schools, and the Duke of Edinburgh scheme is run through Scouts / Guides etc, rather than schools, at least locally.

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Galloping Granny
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My three grandchildren, 10, 8, and 6, from BC Canada, were here for a month in October on their biennial visit.
Their teachers were happy to set work for them, though it was not always easy to get them to knuckle down. 10-year-old hadn't brought his journal but happily wrote it every day on my MacBook, with some discussion of grammar and punctuation (I was an English teacher) and illustrations by his mother (a photographer). He had a work sheet for his class's set book, 'The Cricket in Times Square'; he didn't have a copy but I contacted local on-line book sellers and we had a copy next day for $5. He's a voracious reader anyway.
They also had educational visits to places like the Len Lye art gallery in New Plymouth and the Kiwihouse (with many other exhibits) in Otorohanga. They also spent a day at a local primary school, for which they had made videos of life back home (I gather that the bear wandering across the yard made a great impression) and returned for another day, with videos to take back.
The all got excellent half-year reports, and I gather that they are not the only family who are given leave from school for travel.
It seems like common sense to me. Their mother and her brother were given five months' leave from high school for the family's 'world trip' and were promoted at the end of the year. Again as an English teacher I took them to plays, Shakespearean and otherwise, marked written work, and related experiences to literary examples; we were lent an answer book for my son's accounting, and so on.
I feel sad for friends whose English grandchildren can only visit in their summer holidays, when it's winter here and they can't enjoy bush walks and the seaside.

GG

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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Huia:

In my time teaching I didn't begrudge spending a bit of extra time with a child if they missed school, any more than I would begrudge spending time with one having difficulties in a particular area - that (as I see it) was part of the job. Most parents didn't withdraw children for frivolous reasons and had the best interests of their child at heart.

I agree. But I have a feeling that the high profile of this case would have changed perceptions. If he had won I think plenty of parents would have taken it as permission to take their kids out of school on holiday at any time.

All the enriching holidays posted above are not necessarily the norm. Mauling round the pool while Mum and Dad drink beer and sunbathe is not educational imo.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

All the enriching holidays posted above are not necessarily the norm. Mauling round the pool while Mum and Dad drink beer and sunbathe is not educational imo.

This is key. No teacher I know would begrudge an actually educational experience (though standard form letters might go out saying that attendance was below xx% and that this was not good), but these are vanishingly rare. Most often it's a skiing or beach holiday.
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Garden Hermit
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I presume no-one regards a trip to Disneyland as an 'enriching experience'?
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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Garden Hermit:
I presume no-one regards a trip to Disneyland as an 'enriching experience'?

Who knows?

It wouldn't enrich me! We went to Florida when the kids were eight and ten, we went canoeing in the Everglades and many other things including a week on the beach. None of us were even slightly tempted by Disney.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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North East Quine

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quote:
Originally posted by Garden Hermit:
I presume no-one regards a trip to Disneyland as an 'enriching experience'?

I suppose it depends. It wouldn't be an enriching experience for a child who had regular family holidays, and had been abroad before. I can think of one young teen for whom any trip which involved travelling outwith mainland Britain, hearing a language other than English spoken, using a foreign currency and being in a bus which was driving on the "wrong" side would be enriching and educational.
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Anselmina
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Back in the seventies, when I was 12, I spent five months, with my older brother, and mum, at sea on the 35,000 tonnes cargo ship, where my dad was an engineer. It included the two statutory summer-leave months; so the time I had off school included the end of first year and the beginning of second year; cumulatively about three months.

We began in Antwerp, travelled across the Atlantic, through the Panama Canal, visiting ports up the Western US seaboard (including a day trip to Disneyland); up to Vancouver and a few other Canadian ports. Then - taking an unscheduled detour - across the Pacific to ports in Japan. Then back the way we came, down the North American seaboard, through the Panama, stopping off in Dublin, France and then flying home via London. Our cargo was variously coke and timber. Our weather variously tropically oppressive, or hurricane force 8 mid-ocean.

To say it was an education for us kids would be an understatement. The school set me a load of work to do across various subjects. Not one iota of this was checked on my return to school. I was a little annoyed! However, my form teacher had told me to keep a journal to share with classmates when I returned. As it happened nobody asked after the diary. But I still have it - now I'm in my fifties, recording all those incredible experiences.

I wouldn't use this as a blanket argument for taking kids out of school, though! Surely the sensible thing is to take each case on its own merits.

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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
quote:
Originally posted by Garden Hermit:
I presume no-one regards a trip to Disneyland as an 'enriching experience'?

I suppose it depends. It wouldn't be an enriching experience for a child who had regular family holidays, and had been abroad before. I can think of one young teen for whom any trip which involved travelling outwith mainland Britain, hearing a language other than English spoken, using a foreign currency and being in a bus which was driving on the "wrong" side would be enriching and educational.
Could be ours. They're 8, 10 and 12 and we've never been abroad. Always had holidays in the UK. Part of the problem is the equating of 'holiday' with 'abroad'

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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lilBuddha
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[Frown] [Roll Eyes] [Disappointed]
Enrichment is in your attitude and openness when you experience things at least as much as where you go to experience them.
Yes, going to Disneyland can be enriching. There will less there in regards to education, of course, but it is only barren if you are.
But this is true of any travel, the mindset one has will determine the enrichment of the experience.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
[Frown] [Roll Eyes] [Disappointed]
Enrichment is in your attitude and openness when you experience things at least as much as where you go to experience them.
Yes, going to Disneyland can be enriching. There will less there in regards to education, of course, but it is only barren if you are.
But this is true of any travel, the mindset one has will determine the enrichment of the experience.

Well then that's equally true of staying put and attending school. The point is that certain experiences are more conducive to extracting educational value than others.
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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
But I have a feeling that the high profile of this case would have changed perceptions. If he had won I think plenty of parents would have taken it as permission to take their kids out of school on holiday at any time.

You're probably right about the perception, and I've very little sympathy for the bloke who brought the case, but it's worth pointing out that he wasn't advocating a free-for-all, but rather that the definition of 'regular attendance' should be based on common sense - his daughter 'regularly' attended school as most people would understand 'regularly', therefore he had no case to answer.

The Supreme Court AIUI has ruled that 'regularly' means in accordance with the school's attendance policy, and I am slightly uncomfortable with this - it seems to suppose schools get it right all the time, which is as unlikely as parents getting it right all the time.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
[Frown] [Roll Eyes] [Disappointed]
Enrichment is in your attitude and openness when you experience things at least as much as where you go to experience them.
Yes, going to Disneyland can be enriching. There will less there in regards to education, of course, but it is only barren if you are.
But this is true of any travel, the mindset one has will determine the enrichment of the experience.

Well then that's equally true of staying put and attending school.
Well, no. Most days in school are indistinguishable from each other. Do you remember every day of your schooling? Did each one bring a sense of joy and wonder?

quote:
The point is that certain experiences are more conducive to extracting educational value than others.

That is true, but in itself sort of useless. You will never know when you are doing something the value it might have later in life and which experiences will make a better future you/your child. There is great value in doing something special, especially with children. This can include deliberately educational experiences, of course. Adding fun into something greatly improves the chance that a child will appreciate and learn.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
- it seems to suppose schools get it right all the time, which is as unlikely as parents getting it right all the time.

Schools, like most institutions, develop rules based on what might fit the average student and what is easiest to administrate.
Parents often think that simply because they are parents that they know best for the children.
It is a wonder more of us are not screwed up.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Well, no. Most days in school are indistinguishable from each other. Do you remember every day of your schooling? Did each one bring a sense of joy and wonder?

Adding fun into something greatly improves the chance that a child will appreciate and learn.

Memory of an experience is hardly the same as learning from it, but I don't remember everything about the many wonderful holidays I went on either (all in the school holidays I should add). Whether something is fun or not is largely orthogonal to educational effectiveness.
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Whether something is fun or not is largely orthogonal to educational effectiveness.

Funny, not only is this opposite to my own experience, but that of the majority of educational and psychological studies I've read.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Whether something is fun or not is largely orthogonal to educational effectiveness.

Funny, not only is this opposite to my own experience, but that of the majority of educational and psychological studies I've read.
Fun can lead to engagement, but often as not attempts to make learning fun lead to the focus being on the entertainment rather than the learning, and you can generate interest and engagement in a topic with making things "fun". All other things being equal, by all means make learning enjoyable, but if it comes at the cost of reducing the quantity or complexity of material learned then it's a false economy. It's the classic "let's make a poster about the nitrogen cycle" approach to learning.

[ 09. April 2017, 14:35: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]

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Alisdair
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Depending on one's definition of 'fun', fun and engagement may be seen to be synonymous. When I am seriously 'engaged' in something there is a good chance that in my miserable eeyorish way I am indeed having 'fun'. [Biased]
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mr cheesy
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I'd suggest that one of the most important thing kid's can learn is to be constructively bored. The "constant entertainment" refrain of modern life is not a good thing, IMO, and must be incredibly difficult to keep up with as a teacher.

One clearly doesn't want a child to be constantly bored, but the fact is that some things which are worth learning are just dull.

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arse

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mousethief

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What cheesy said.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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mr cheesy
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Apologies for the loose apostrophe in my last post.

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arse

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Fun can lead to engagement, but often as not attempts to make learning fun lead to the focus being on the entertainment rather than the learning,

This is called incompetence. Happens with the boring teachers as well.

quote:

and you can generate interest and engagement in a topic with making things "fun". All other things being equal, by all means make learning enjoyable, but if it comes at the cost of reducing the quantity or complexity of material learned then it's a false economy. It's the classic "let's make a poster about the nitrogen cycle" approach to learning.

School should engage, yes. The idea of sit and grind through the lessons is ridiculous. However, even at its best, school is still a chore and a few days respite in the midst of term can be a good thing.
And, if that few days out harms the child's education, s/he is being failed by both system and parent.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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mr cheesy
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I still have a gap in my education where I missed a chemistry lesson in (the equivalent of) 8th grade, for some reason no amount of catch-up seemed to fill it.

Missing time when nothing much is happening in school (eg end of the summer term) is one thing. Going missing in the middle of a term is plain stupid.

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arse

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'd suggest that one of the most important thing kid's can learn is to be constructively bored. The "constant entertainment" refrain of modern life is not a good thing, IMO, and must be incredibly difficult to keep up with as a teacher.

One clearly doesn't want a child to be constantly bored, but the fact is that some things which are worth learning are just dull.

I do not think anyone is saying that a child should be constantly entertained.
As a feature, boredom is bad. Every student will face boredom regardless of the quality of the education, you do not need to plan its inclusion.
And they will need to carry on regardless.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Alisdair:
Depending on one's definition of 'fun', fun and engagement may be seen to be synonymous. When I am seriously 'engaged' in something there is a good chance that in my miserable eeyorish way I am indeed having 'fun'. [Biased]

Exactly.

Teachers are most definitely not there to entertain children. But they need to keep them engaged and interested as much as possible.

They need to know what to do when bored - not how to
be bored but how to deal with it. (engage mind and imagination, do some joined up thinking [Smile] )

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisdair:
Depending on one's definition of 'fun', fun and engagement may be seen to be synonymous. When I am seriously 'engaged' in something there is a good chance that in my miserable eeyorish way I am indeed having 'fun'. [Biased]

The vast majority of my students claim (according to a recent survey) to enjoy my subject. I doubt any of them would include studying it on their list of ideas for a fun day.
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Alisdair
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Your students---depending on age, maturity, and wont---are, of course, entitled to their opinion of what constitutes 'fun'.

I often seem to be having fun when my life is on the line, but equally so when I am immersed in a good book, or writing a sermon. As the saying goes, 'There's nowt so queer as folk'.

As for removing children from school for 'other purposes' (including the having of 'fun'), well there is the matter of the law, spirit, and serving.

Choose life, I say, there's no knowing when that opportunity may ever come again.

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Garden Hermit:
I presume no-one regards a trip to Disneyland as an 'enriching experience'?

No I don't!

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
If you take a pupil out of school, the teacher has to spend one to one time with them to help them catch up. That is time stolen from other pupils.

Oh please.

As L'Organist pointed out, the chance of a teacher actually doing this is ... well, in my experience, remote. What actually happens is, they tell you it's your own damned fault, and suggest you pay for a tutor. Which they are not obligated to help you find.

And since when did teachers spend loads of one-on-one time with elementary/high school kids anyway? We live in a very good school district, but in-class time is almost always used for whole-class or small-group work, with very little one-on-one time to be stolen or otherwise taken from anybody else. Students are allowed to ask for extra help (brief) before school starts in the morning, or maybe (underline maybe) during a study session (if one exists at all). Otherwise, it's back to "get yourself a tutor."

It was demanded where I taught. And not to meet SAT targets but to cover content.
Okay, fine. You taught in a rare school. Now explain to me how one-on-one catchup time is "stealing from other pupils." Did you shut down your classroom in order to attend to the needs of one person? Why is this a zero sum game?

If you can't tell, I'm seriousl pissed off by your word "stealing."

Not rare at all. Current OFSTED expectation is that classes shoulod not move on to any newe toipic until every single person in a class has mastered 'secure'.

As for stealing - I taught about 360 different students per week in groups of apperox. 30. Each leeon would have somone catching up - while I spend time with him/her I cannot be helping the other 29 in the class. So that is one child stealing time from 29 others.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
If you take a pupil out of school, the teacher has to spend one to one time with them to help them catch up. That is time stolen from other pupils.

This is nonsense, in so many different ways.
I'm still waiting for you to justify this assertion.

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
If you take a pupil out of school, the teacher has to spend one to one time with them to help them catch up. That is time stolen from other pupils.

This is nonsense, in so many different ways.
I'm still waiting for you to justify this assertion.
leo, you really should pay some attention to those who have told you that they took holidays in term and received no one-to-one tuition on their return. It isn't data, but when enough people tell you so, it's time to take notice.
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
leo, you really should pay some attention to those who have told you that they took holidays in term and received no one-to-one tuition on their return. It isn't data, but when enough people tell you so, it's time to take notice.

That clearly cuts both ways, and those of us who have teaching experience are going to have encountered the situation far more often than those who have merely attended school.

[ 09. April 2017, 20:33: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]

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anne
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# 73

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
If you take a pupil out of school, the teacher has to spend one to one time with them to help them catch up. That is time stolen from other pupils.

This is nonsense, in so many different ways.
I'm still waiting for you to justify this assertion.
leo, you really should pay some attention to those who have told you that they took holidays in term and received no one-to-one tuition on their return. It isn't data, but when enough people tell you so, it's time to take notice.
But some catching up will be necessary, and if any of that happens in school, whether one to one during class time, small group work, after-school work with teacher or simply the whole class going over the same work again until Freddie catches up with everyone else, then that child is taking away* resources from the other children in their class.

anne

*if stealing seems harsh.

--------------------
‘I would have given the Church my head, my hand, my heart. She would not have them. She did not know what to do with them. She told me to go back and do crochet' Florence Nightingale

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:

As for stealing - I taught about 360 different students per week in groups of apperox. 30. Each leeon would have somone catching up - while I spend time with him/her I cannot be helping the other 29 in the class. So that is one child stealing time from 29 others.

Rubbish. Students have illness and accident and still manage to complete courses without slowing down the rest of the class every single year in every single school. If your curriculum does not allow for slack in it, then it is poorly designed.
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
and those of us who have teaching experience are going to have encountered the situation far more often than those who have merely attended school.

You will have a different POV. It is one that should be more comprehensive, but there are many instructors who demonstrate that it is not.
quote:
Originally posted by anne:
But some catching up will be necessary, and if any of that happens in school, whether one to one during class time, small group work, after-school work with teacher or simply the whole class going over the same work again until Freddie catches up with everyone else, then that child is taking away* resources from the other children in their class.

People are writing as if every moment of school is precious and unique when most moments are neither. There are times when removing a student is not in the benefit of the student, but this is not true of every day or even every week.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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In English/Language Arts, you might miss the section on one novel, and come back in time to start the section on the next novel, and still do just fine through the end of the course.

In Math(s), if you miss the section on one procedure, you will likely need to know that procedure for the rest of your math career, and you will have to be playing catch-up learning that procedure while simultaneously learning things that presuppose that you are able to use it fluidly. It can be very hard for students, especially the ones who are not quick-picker-uppers, to do this.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Not rare at all. Current OFSTED expectation is that classes shoulod not move on to any newe toipic until every single person in a class has mastered 'secure'.

As for stealing - I taught about 360 different students per week in groups of apperox. 30. Each leeon would have somone catching up - while I spend time with him/her I cannot be helping the other 29 in the class. So that is one child stealing time from 29 others. [/QB]

I'll have to leave the OFSTED thing to others, as I'm in America. But it seems absurd to hold an entire class back until one out of 30 gets over a difficulty. What do you do with someone who is recovering from a head injury, or going through cancer treatments? Just wait around?

As for the way you handle your in-class time, I find this very odd. Do the other 29 just sit there with hands folded, then? As a teacher myself I can say that sounds like a recipe for disaster at any age. in fact, I'd go so far as to say that it is the bad judgment of the teacher that is causing the problem, begging your pardon. It is the teacher who is making the decision to have everyone wait around idly while he/she has one-on-one time with a pupil. (And if they're not waiting idly, then there's no problem, is there?)

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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In 1976 our parents took me and my brothers to Washington, DC for two weeks in April. They chose April in order to avoid the summer heat and crowds of the nation's bicentennial year. I was in 8th grade and my brothers in 5th and 2nd grades. I remember my parents talking about people at the schools being unhappy about this; my parents' attitude was basically just "hey, too bad, we're not going in July."

It was a great trip, and I know I got a lot more out of seeing the monuments, museums, and historic places in DC than I would have in two weeks in class. None of my teachers spent a minute helping me catch up on what I missed; that was all on me. The only trouble I had was in home ec, as we were supposed to do all the sewing on our projects there in class, and I was obviously two weeks behind on my project. I somehow finished on time, though I don't remember how -- I may have simply brought the project home and finished it over a weekend. I do remember arguing with the teacher that she should let me do that, since I already knew how to sew and didn't need her help.

[ 10. April 2017, 02:01: Message edited by: RuthW ]

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
If you take a pupil out of school, the teacher has to spend one to one time with them to help them catch up. That is time stolen from other pupils.

This is nonsense, in so many different ways.
I'm still waiting for you to justify this assertion.
Well, the idea that time spent going over something one-on-one with a pupil is "stealing" from other pupils is absurd. It presupposes that every pupil has an absolute duty to manage his life for the maximum convenience of his coaevals, which is something you made up.

(And if OFSTED really requires you to wait until every member of your class is "secure" on a topic before moving on, then OFSTED is requiring you to "steal" very much more time from your pupils than anyone's holiday ever could.)

I also claim as nonsense the idea that it is reasonable for a pupil to be away from school for a holiday, and return two weeks later having made no effort to cover any important work missed, and to expect the school to take responsibility.

I'm all in favour of people making the judgement that they have something better to do than go to school this week, but they have to own that choice, and its consequences. Which means that catching up is on the child and his family, and shouldn't be a significant burden on the teacher.

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L'organist
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# 17338

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What some people in the UK are trying not to say is that for some parents to take their offspring out of school for a holiday can be an enriching experience that will add to/enhance their education; but if it is just to be getting on a 'plane to go to Florida, stay at the Disney resort and over-dose on fairground rides then it won't.

Fact is, we're all happy to go on a beach holiday but while some of us will take the time to go to museums, castles, local conservation projects, etc, there are parents who will go from home to all-inclusive resort, sit around the pool from dawn to dusk and then fly home. Yes, it may be possible for the child staying in the specially-for-foreigners all-inclusive place to find out something about the local culture its not likely and a single evening with 'local dancers', etc, laid on as entertainment really isn't enough.

--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
What some people in the UK are trying not to say is that for some parents to take their offspring out of school for a holiday can be an enriching experience that will add to/enhance their education; but if it is just to be getting on a 'plane to go to Florida, stay at the Disney resort and over-dose on fairground rides then it won't.

I disagree that it will not be an enriching experience. Life, learning and enrichment are broader than what typically fits in a schoolbook.
The best approach, IMO and E, is a mixed one. Some of my best childhood memories are museums and walking the walls of fortifications. In large part because my parents didn't treat education and enjoyment as separate activities. This works in both directions.
BTW, I loathe the "resort" part of any destination, be it Disney, the Bahamas or wherever. If that is part of what you do, whatever. If that is all you do, then you failing yourself as well as your children.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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This seems like one of those irregular bits of grammar:

I'm taking my child out of school for understandable reasons and they'll not suffer educationally

You're taking your child out of school to take them to Disneyland and they'll obviously suffer because you're bad parents

They're lazy bastards who are ruining school education for everyone.

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arse

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
You're taking your child out of school to take them to Disneyland and they'll obviously suffer because you're bad parents

I not only missed a week of school, but actually missed one of my exams because we were on a family holiday to Disneyworld in Florida at the time. Other than the date of that exam, there was no impact on my education whatsoever.

In other anecdata, a friend of mine missed about six months of school due to a serious illness when we were in year 8. It didn't seem to affect him too badly, given that he's now a nuclear engineer. And yet we're supposed to believe that a single week taken out in order to go on holiday will permanently set back a child's education? Give me a break. [Roll Eyes] [Disappointed]

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
What some people in the UK are trying not to say is that for some parents to take their offspring out of school for a holiday can be an enriching experience that will add to/enhance their education; but if it is just to be getting on a 'plane to go to Florida, stay at the Disney resort and over-dose on fairground rides then it won't.

Fact is, we're all happy to go on a beach holiday but while some of us will take the time to go to museums, castles, local conservation projects, etc, there are parents who will go from home to all-inclusive resort, sit around the pool from dawn to dusk and then fly home. Yes, it may be possible for the child staying in the specially-for-foreigners all-inclusive place to find out something about the local culture its not likely and a single evening with 'local dancers', etc, laid on as entertainment really isn't enough.

Definitely an isolated resort experience isn't a good way to learn anything about local culture.

But learning local culture is not the ONLY educational benefit of a vacation (altho it can be a valuable one if that is the goal). There are all sorts of benefits educationally simply from unwinding from the academic treadmill, spending time with parents, talking in a relaxed way, being able to explore and recapture the childlike sense of wonder & inquiry-- even if your wonder and inquiry is simply exploring the hermit crabs burrowing in the sand or wondering aloud what "Mississippi mud cake" might be. The above mentioned examples of reconnecting with distant relatives similarly provide benefits that may not fit into a defined curricula but will nonetheless yield great results. If planned well, students may return to the academic routine better able to focus and retain material than if they'd had no such break.

I would agree that having a flippant attitude toward schooling, conveying the expectation that absences are no big deal, sends an unfortunate message that will undermine academic success. But for the same reason, infrequent, targeted, intentional breaks teach a healthy life-work rhythm that will serve children well both as students and later as workers in whatever field they enter.

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
What some people in the UK are trying not to say is that for some parents to take their offspring out of school for a holiday can be an enriching experience that will add to/enhance their education; but if it is just to be getting on a 'plane to go to Florida, stay at the Disney resort and over-dose on fairground rides then it won't.

Fact is, we're all happy to go on a beach holiday but while some of us will take the time to go to museums, castles, local conservation projects, etc, there are parents who will go from home to all-inclusive resort, sit around the pool from dawn to dusk and then fly home. Yes, it may be possible for the child staying in the specially-for-foreigners all-inclusive place to find out something about the local culture its not likely and a single evening with 'local dancers', etc, laid on as entertainment really isn't enough.

Definitely an isolated resort experience isn't a good way to learn anything about local culture.

But learning local culture is not the ONLY educational benefit of a vacation (altho it can be a valuable one if that is the goal). There are all sorts of benefits educationally simply from unwinding from the academic treadmill, spending time with parents, talking in a relaxed way, being able to explore and recapture the childlike sense of wonder & inquiry-- even if your wonder and inquiry is simply exploring the hermit crabs burrowing in the sand or wondering aloud what "Mississippi mud cake" might be. The above mentioned examples of reconnecting with distant relatives similarly provide benefits that may not fit into a defined curricula but will nonetheless yield great results. If planned well, students may return to the academic routine better able to focus and retain material than if they'd had no such break.

I would agree that having a flippant attitude toward schooling, conveying the expectation that absences are no big deal, sends an unfortunate message that will undermine academic success. But for the same reason, infrequent, targeted, intentional breaks teach a healthy life-work rhythm that will serve children well both as students and later as workers in whatever field they enter.

It's not like children are trapped in some sort of inescapable gradgrindian dystopia unless their devoted parents save them. They already get around 13 weeks a year when they're not at school, to do the things being suggested. In England the longest time they might go without a week off is around 7 weeks.
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leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Do the other 29 just sit there with hands folded, then?

No - they do 'work' which does not require a teacher - so it is a filler and something that could be done at home (assuming that any filler is necessary).

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23029 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
if OFSTED really requires you to wait until every member of your class is "secure" on a topic before moving on, then OFSTED is requiring you to "steal" very much more time from your pupils than anyone's holiday ever could.

Not so much OFSTED as Michael Gove - this developing/secure/exceeding assessment is still in its infancy as a poor successor to levels.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23029 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
eo, you really should pay some attention to those who have told you that they took holidays in term and received no one-to-one tuition on their return. It isn't data, but when enough people tell you so, it's time to take notice. [/QB]

But they're adults writing about schooling 20 or more years ago. Lots has changed since then.

Lots of people think they're experts on education by virtue of their having attended schhol.

Mercifully, they don't claim expertise in bnrain surgery by virtue of having had a spell in hospital.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23029 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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You might consider that some of us former children have actual children of our own at this time. In our case I can say nothing has changed.

As for your "filler"--I think you're trying to have it both ways. Either the material they are doing while you tutor the undeserving is actually worthwhile, in which case nobody has done them any harm (not the student, for needing one-on-one tutoring; not you, for acceding to their request); or else the material is worthless, in which case you've got bigger problems than a single child "stealing" your attention from the others.

In fact, I suspect what you have is the same situation teachers have had from time immemorial--a certain amount of absolutely critical material which can be stressed or compressed as needed (within certain limits, obviously) to fill available course time. A certain amount of time padding is built in to the course parameters to handle situations just like the one we are considering--also teacher illness, building problems, and the like.

If this is so, then no child is "stealing" anything from the rest. Rather you are objecting to compressing course material for their sakes, even though the course was planned with extra time built in. In short, you believe that there are some people who deserve to have you do this for them, and other people who do not.

By the way, should you be judging the child for what was almost certainly a parental decision?

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047

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Actually, few courses now have built in slack time, and even if they did unnecessary compression will tend to reduce quality of learning. Ideas take time to develop and embed. And yes, this is a problem when students get ill. To give a practical example, the advice for National 5 courses (think higher tier GCSE for those of you down south, O Level for those of you above a certain age) is that they require 160 hours of contact time. Broadly that means to give them their full allocation in a year (the recommended course length) you can only fit in 5 subjects. Virtually no school does that because narrowing options so early is detrimental, the consequence being trying to squeeze these courses into more like 130 hours, which gives very little slack at all, and means that any absence has a noticeable impact, particularly under present rules that require students to pass unit assessments involving knowledge and understanding of every part of the course.
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