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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Taking Kids Out-Of-School
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
What sort of written homework / essays do your pupils do, leo?
My goddaughter has just finished a topic on the death penalty, and whether religious belief (various religions, not just Christianity) affects attitudes to the death penalty. She's not a particularly academic student, nor is she religious* but found the topic interesting.
*I have failed as a godparent.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Even if RE had been offered at my child's school, from what I'm learning from you, I'd have been as well to withdraw from the utterly pointless lessons and instead spend the time on something more constructive - which, quite frankly, is almost anything.
RE is the main conduit for the government's 'Tackling Extremism/British Values'.
Parents have been threatened with visits from the police of they withdraw their kids.
That's news. I've always understood that parents could withdraw their children from RE, as well as from collective worship.
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
It's also not true - PSHCEE and citizenship are also conduits for British Values and they are supposed to be taught across the curriculum.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
RE is the main conduit for the government's 'Tackling Extremism/British Values'.
Parents have been threatened with visits from the police of they withdraw their kids.
What a load of crap. Parents have a statutory right to withdraw from RE and collective worship under the School Standards and Framework Act 1998 Section 71.
I have exercised my right to discuss with the headteacher on several occasions what my child was being taught in RE lessons (which existed up to 14 - but apparently were illegally not offered to everyone beyond this point) and was told on every occasion that I had the right of withdraw.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
RE is the main conduit for the government's 'Tackling Extremism/British Values'.
Parents have been threatened with visits from the police of they withdraw their kids.
What a load of crap. Parents have a statutory right to withdraw from RE and collective worship under the School Standards and Framework Act 1998 Section 71.
I have exercised my right to discuss with the headteacher on several occasions what my child was being taught in RE lessons (which existed up to 14 - but apparently were illegally not offered to everyone beyond this point) and was told on every occasion that I had the right of withdraw.
How,long ago? Before the extremism legislation? And if not, what alternative home-schooling did you provide to cover it?
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I dare say that the school would have told me if there was any danger of missing anything about extremism - but as the school was 99.5% white, I don't think this was even mentioned.
As it happened, I never withdrew my child from anything - although I did make several written comments about mistakes in what was being taught at various levels. But that was a moot point given that the school unilaterally stopped teaching RE altogether at 14.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
It's also not true - PSHCEE and citizenship are also conduits for British Values and they are supposed to be taught across the curriculum.
Tolerance of/understaing different religions?
PSHE is not compulsory so cannot be relied on as a conduit for anything.
(It the 'C' careers?)
Citizenship was a conduit but the Tories abolished it.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
What sort of written homework / essays do your pupils do, leo?
Impossible to list 45 lessons x 5 years worth. Our Agreed Syllabus has over 200 hundred homework suggestions but it's copyright protected (to stop academies getting it for free)
Essays only tend to come in for RS exam work.
For some topice e.g. belief, a survey or interview of people outside school is useful.
Or to sum up a topic, a grid to fill in on the lines of 'Many hindus believe.....whereas Sikhs.... I believe that...because....
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
(As a sidenote, how do you communicate the syllabus to your pupils? Do you hand out a sheet of paper at the start of the year?)
When RE teachers HAVE indicated future conent, there is an avalanche of parents wishing to withdraw their children whenever Islam is mentioned.
How many constitutes an avalanche? Did it really happen?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I suspect the truth is that several weeks could be lost at the end of the Summer term, at least a week could be lost before Christmas kids are in the classroom for less weeks a year.
Every year, since 1974, we were expected to 'teach up to the last bell'.
Clearly expectation and reality aren't/weren't one and the same. My own experience (and that of my children) is that the no school work was done in the last week of Christmas Term and none in the last two weeks of summer.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Even if RE had been offered at my child's school, from what I'm learning from you, I'd have been as well to withdraw from the utterly pointless lessons and instead spend the time on something more constructive - which, quite frankly, is almost anything.
RE is the main conduit for the government's 'Tackling Extremism/British Values'.
Parents have been threatened with visits from the police of they withdraw their kids.
Evidence please. The Police have no right to do this 9see Mr Cheesy's response). If they did - then they are harassing parents, as are the teachers who reported the parents to the police.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
leo, I am not sure where you're getting your information from as the 2013 National Curriculum has Statutory Programmes of Study for Citizenship at KS1 to KS4. Checking the KS3/4 requirements, as that is for students in secondary education, the introduction says:
quote:
Teaching should equip pupils with the skills and knowledge to explore political and social issues critically, to weigh evidence, debate and make reasoned arguments.
and in the KS4 programme of study there is a section requiring that students should be taught about [the]:
quote:
diverse national, regional, religious and ethnic identities in the United Kingdom and the need for mutual respect and understanding
This one I teach and put schemes of work together for teaching. There are accredited qualifications for PSHCEE and citizenship.
PSHCEE - Personal, Sexual, Health, Citizenship and Economic Education
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
(As a sidenote, how do you communicate the syllabus to your pupils? Do you hand out a sheet of paper at the start of the year?)
When RE teachers HAVE indicated future conent, there is an avalanche of parents wishing to withdraw their children whenever Islam is mentioned.
How many constitutes an avalanche? Did it really happen?
Yes - averaging 3 per class
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Even if RE had been offered at my child's school, from what I'm learning from you, I'd have been as well to withdraw from the utterly pointless lessons and instead spend the time on something more constructive - which, quite frankly, is almost anything.
RE is the main conduit for the government's 'Tackling Extremism/British Values'.
Parents have been threatened with visits from the police of they withdraw their kids.
Evidence please. The Police have no right to do this 9see Mr Cheesy's response). If they did - then they are harassing parents, as are the teachers who reported the parents to the police.
Teachers have a duty to so report
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
(As a sidenote, how do you communicate the syllabus to your pupils? Do you hand out a sheet of paper at the start of the year?)
When RE teachers HAVE indicated future conent, there is an avalanche of parents wishing to withdraw their children whenever Islam is mentioned.
How many constitutes an avalanche? Did it really happen?
Yes - averaging 3 per class
How large is a class? IOW, what percentage is this?
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
(As a sidenote, how do you communicate the syllabus to your pupils? Do you hand out a sheet of paper at the start of the year?)
When RE teachers HAVE indicated future conent, there is an avalanche of parents wishing to withdraw their children whenever Islam is mentioned.
How many constitutes an avalanche? Did it really happen?
Yes - averaging 3 per class
How large is a class? IOW, what percentage is this?
Moo
10%
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Yes they do - if the reasons they give show extremism, which they nearly always do.
Taking a child out of RE is not a sign of extremism. What planet are you from?
I accept that some people who might have violent extremist views may indeed want to take their children out of RE lessons; that doesn't then follow that everyone who wants to take their child out of RE needs to be reported.
You are adding 2 and 2 and making 5 million.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Yes they do - if the reasons they give show extremism, which they nearly always do.
Taking a child out of RE is not a sign of extremism. What planet are you from?
I accept that some people who might have violent extremist views may indeed want to take their children out of RE lessons; that doesn't then follow that everyone who wants to take their child out of RE needs to be reported.
You are adding 2 and 2 and making 5 million.
Did you read my word 'if'?
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Did you read my word 'if'?
You started talking about extremism and informing on parents who withdraw from RE lessons.
For the record, I'm not an extremist. Nobody ever said that I was doing anything wrong when I discussed RE with the headteacher. Because I wasn't doing anything wrong, I was exercising my legal right.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Did you read my word 'if'?
You started talking about extremism and informing on parents who withdraw from RE lessons.
For the record, I'm not an extremist. Nobody ever said that I was doing anything wrong when I discussed RE with the headteacher. Because I wasn't doing anything wrong, I was exercising my legal right.
And I think I asked you WHEN? HOW LONG AGO?
Before the Prevent strategy?
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Teachers have a duty to so report
Don't be daft, you don't have a duty to report a parent who exercises their right to take a child out of RE.
Yes they do - if the reasons they give show extremism, which they nearly always do.
Really? That is a very subjective view to take. What about Christians of "fringe" denominations who want their children to attend alternative RE classes.
It would make a whole lot more sense to take the anti-extremism out of RE.
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Teachers have a duty to so report
Don't be daft, you don't have a duty to report a parent who exercises their right to take a child out of RE.
Yes they do - if the reasons they give show extremism, which they nearly always do.
Could you give a couple of typical examples of reasons parents have given you that reflect extremism?
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
... Impossible to list 45 lessons x 5 years worth. Our Agreed Syllabus has over 200 hundred homework suggestions but it's copyright protected (to stop academies getting it for free) ...
Tangent alert
Leo are you sure that an RE syllabus is something that copyright can exist in, or exactly what, if one attempts to assert copyright in it, any such copyright would cover?
It might well exist in the typescript and typography. I'm rather more doubtful it could exist in the syllabus itself. Even if it could exist at all, I'm fairly sure it would only avail to stop someone photocopying the document, distributing it and adopting that syllabus exactly as it stands. I'm fairly sure it could not exist so as to prevent someone borrowing ideas from it.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Leo are you sure that an RE syllabus is something that copyright can exist in, or exactly what, if one attempts to assert copyright in it, any such copyright would cover?
A syllabus document containing examples of suggested work to meet that syllabus and so on can most certainly be copyrighted. That examples of homework can be subject to copyright is obvious.
Facts, of course, cannot be copyrighted. But a particular assemblage of facts may be copyrighted, and I see no particular reason why an RE syllabus shouldn't fall into that category.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
leo, how many parents have you reported for withdrawing their children from your classes?
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
... Impossible to list 45 lessons x 5 years worth. Our Agreed Syllabus has over 200 hundred homework suggestions but it's copyright protected (to stop academies getting it for free) ...
Tangent alert
Leo are you sure that an RE syllabus is something that copyright can exist in, or exactly what, if one attempts to assert copyright in it, any such copyright would cover?
The whole of Hereford, Swindon and South Gloucestershire's locallty agreed syllabuses are copyright.
Since for local authority pays our expenses for devising them, it is only fair that acaemies 'buy into them'- as their funding agreement stipulates.
[ 23. April 2017, 17:16: Message edited by: leo ]
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I was exercising my legal right.
Tyhe last four comissions of RE have stated that withdrwal is anachronistic - parents had a right to withdraw from RI.
RE is not 'instruction' so you should no more withdraw on grounds of not wanting kids to learn about another religion that you should withraw from MFL because you don't want a kid learning another language.
So it is intended that the wihdrawal clause weill do when there is a chamnge of law.
[ 23. April 2017, 17:21: Message edited by: leo ]
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The whole of Hereford, Swindon and South Gloucestershire's locallty agreed syllabuses are copyright.
Since for local authority pays our expenses for devising them, it is only fair that acaemies 'buy into them'- as their funding agreement stipulates.
Leo, I wasn't questioning that people might not be trying to assert copyright in them. My queries are whether that assertion is as effective as they think it is, what they think it extends to, what actions they would expect to be a breach of it, and whether if it came to contention, what is actually within the range of what they could enforce.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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