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Source: (consider it) Thread: Female Lord of Flies
mdijon
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Personally I think it likely biology is partly responsible. Muscle mass and physical strength are associated with male sex, and that seems very likely a biological effect of testosterone and other hormones. Men who are testosterone deficient as a result of endocrine disease lose muscle mass (and bone mass by the way) and often report feeling less aggressive.

Human beings apparently have agency and choice, but are also pathetically enslaved to physical influences on their cognition and decisions.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Hiro's Leap

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quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
Libba Bray's novel Beauty Queens has been suggested several times as a novel that covers LotF-like territory. I don't know why Hollywood wouldn't adapt that into a movie instead, if they really feel there's a need for this.

Reviews say Beauty Queens is "a story of empowering self-discovery", "twisted fun", it's a "hilarious romp" and "the jokes fly thick as unplucked brows".

This summary suggests it involves a group of plucky 16-year old beauty queens stranded on a beach who use explosives made from hair remover to take out ninjas, a evil Corporation, an evil dictator in his volcano lair, and then retrieve a sex tape one of them unwittingly co-starred in with a "good-looking British schoolboy-turned-pirate" who turned out to be a bit of a cad. After they save the day there's a flashforward and everyone has a happy life.

It sounds about as far removed from the Lord of the Flies as you can possibly get. [Paranoid]
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Also, frankly, this is well-trodden ground in fiction, and is not very interesting. Here's a good example.

This is a story about men who are prepared to rape a group of women to prevent humanity becoming extinct, and so one of the women kills them. It's an interesting premise but seems to be another example of women as victims and men as oppressors. Don't any sci-fi novels revolve around the social dynamics of shitty women abusing their own gender, without needing a man nearby?
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Plans for a new, all female, film of Lord of the Flies have been much criticised.

That article boils down to "boys bad, girls good". The violence in women's prisons and the high rates of domestic violence in lesbian couples doesn't support that.
quote:
The main argument seems to me to be that girls wouldn't descend into savagery in the ways that the boys did. Is this true? Is female violence really so unlikely?
My wild guess is that girls would be slower to resort to physical violence, but hunger, sickness, loneliness, lust for power, and a consuming terror of the demons in the black night could tear them apart just as effectively as it did to the boys; and the gender-specific ways this played out could make a horribly disturbing and fascinating film. But it'll never happen - there's too much resistance to seeing women portrayed as violent aggressors, and it was a dumb idea to choose male directors.

[ 04. September 2017, 21:32: Message edited by: Hiro's Leap ]

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
That article boils down to "boys bad, girls good". The violence in women's prisons and the high rates of domestic violence in lesbian couples doesn't support that.

Violence in women's prisons is less than in men's and did you read the article on lesbian domestic violence? It is riddled with comments on the unreliability of the studies.
I'm not saying women cannot be violent, just commenting on the inaccuracy of your statement.

quote:
. But it'll never happen - there's too much resistance to seeing women portrayed as violent aggressors, and it was a dumb idea to choose male directors.
I don't know, the success of Wonder Woman and Atomic Blonde show that it is possible to push into "male" territory.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I'm not saying women cannot be violent, just commenting on the inaccuracy of your statement.

And few would claim that women *can't* be violent, the claim is usually that they are violent much less frequently than men.

Added to the empiric evidence on this and the physical changes that testosterone causes, I was thinking this morning of getting a pet dog snipped because of its aggressive behaviour. This is a very reliable way of moderating behaviour in dogs.

There are behavioural differences in male animals across a range of species, and I suspect male humans are conning themselves if they don't think their behaviour is just as influenced by hormones.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Jane R
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mdijon:
quote:
Added to the empiric evidence on this and the physical changes that testosterone causes, I was thinking this morning of getting a pet dog snipped because of its aggressive behaviour. This is a very reliable way of moderating behaviour in dogs.
Ah, if only we could solve the current nuclear crisis by *ahem* reducing aggression in certain prominent world leaders...

Unfortunately it is not always so effective in moderating behaviour in humans. I give you the Byzantine general Narses as an example.

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rolyn
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I occassionally wonder if some chemical testosterone suppression of all male new borns could be a future consideration.
That being if we truly have the collective desire for humanity to persist in peace and harmony for the unforseeable.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Alex Cockell

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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
I occassionally wonder if some chemical testosterone suppression of all male new borns could be a future consideration.
That being if we truly have the collective desire for humanity to persist in peace and harmony for the unforseeable.

Seems abusive. Why do you want to spay guys?
What is so wrong with testosterone?
What is so wrong with the sexual urgency in Song of Songs?

An important quote- "softer-hearted people sleep soundly only because there are rougher men standing guard"
It was also the key point in A Few Good Men... that that power is used in a tempered fashion to protect, and when that power is abused, it all goes to shit.

Having worn St John Ambulance uniform and worked closely with the other emergency services... maybe I have "sheepdog" tendencies in me.

Sheep, sheepdogs, Wolves

There's also the Dicks, Pussies and Assholes speech in Team America... but we now have Trump and May joining the Assholes...

Men and women can equally go toxic... a rather relevant point was tweeted about the LOTF remake - "So... you're remaking Heathers or Mean Girls?"...

[ 05. September 2017, 10:53: Message edited by: Alex Cockell ]

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Alex Cockell

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Female toxicity and violence was written up BY A FEMINIST- both Esther Vilar in The Manipulated Man - and by Ros Wiseman in Queen bees and Wannabes - which Tina Fey adapted into Mean Girls.
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Alex Cockell

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Re comments about "rougher men standing guard" - please read that as "rougher people"....
men, women, trans, all serving..

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Hope
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Added to the empiric evidence on this and the physical changes that testosterone causes, I was thinking this morning of getting a pet dog snipped because of its aggressive behaviour. This is a very reliable way of moderating behaviour in dogs.

There are behavioural differences in male animals across a range of species, and I suspect male humans are conning themselves if they don't think their behaviour is just as influenced by hormones.

Delurking just to say that these days it's believed that neutering a male dog whose aggression is due to fear can worsen the aggression, because it was the testosterone giving him the little confidence he had.

How this might relate to men, and particularly men in leadership positions with decisions to make about the use of violence, is left to the reader. Even if it were ethical... [Biased]

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-"The dream magic of the sea."
-"Phosphorescent algae."

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mark_in_manchester

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This thread brought the TV programmes 'Boys Alone' and 'Girls Alone' to mind. Does anyone remember them - they are on Youtube.

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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Unfortunately it is not always so effective in moderating behaviour in humans. I give you the Byzantine general Narses as an example.

There is the misreadable phrase "important eunuch" in that article. Eunuchs were quite involved in palace intrigue and murder in several different societies, I wasn't aware of the Byzantine general before though.

Maybe there is a difference between vicarious calculating violence and poor impulse control driven direct scrapping. The latter being more dependent on testosterone.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I'm not saying women cannot be violent, just commenting on the inaccuracy of your statement.

And few would claim that women *can't* be violent, the claim is usually that they are violent much less frequently than men.

Added to the empiric evidence on this and the physical changes that testosterone causes, I was thinking this morning of getting a pet dog snipped because of its aggressive behaviour. This is a very reliable way of moderating behaviour in dogs.

No it isn't, it really isn't. Never neuter a male dog for this reason, it can make things worse. They can become especially aggressive towards entire males. Desensitisation training is the answer.

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rolyn
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It could well be that testosterone is a red herring and these things are entirely cultural. Like put a female in charge of a concentration camp and they can be every inch a sadist as a male.

On a different matter I find oftentimes when driving, as a car approaches in the rear view mirror, I can normally tell if is a male driver. Especially if it appears quickly and is keen to overtake on an A-road. (I don't count myself as an exception to this generalisation).

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Hiro's Leap

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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
There are behavioural differences in male animals across a range of species, and I suspect male humans are conning themselves if they don't think their behaviour is just as influenced by hormones.

The problem is that by arguing that testosterone makes men aggressive, people may suggest that it also explains why men dominate the top positions in so many fields. Attributing all differences to socialisation neatly avoids this. I agree that gender differences in behaviour are probably partly biological, but (a) it's incredibly complicated, and (b) half-arsed biological differences too often have been used as an excuse for the status quo so we need to be very suspicious.

And just as we should be suspicious about women not being suited for various roles "because of biology", we ought to challenge assumptions on gender and violence.

For instance, much has been written about Breaking Bad and "toxic masculinity", but it turns out Bryan Cranston's performance was actually based on his abusive ex-girlfriend. (Well worth a listen - he's a great storyteller.)

Similarly, both the simple sociological ("Patriarchy") and biological ("testosterone") perspectives would suggest (to me at least) that gay male relationships would be much more violent than lesbian ones, but that doesn't seem to be true. And what about data that shows incidents of inmate-on-inmate sexual victimization to be over four times higher among female prisoners than male ones? Major surveys also report an astonishing amount of female-on-male rape which gets swept under the carpet, as does domestic violence against men. Hell, intuition would suggest that Queens would be less warlike than Kings, but even that isn't true.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I don't know, the success of Wonder Woman and Atomic Blonde show that it is possible to push into "male" territory.

There's (rightly) a lot of enthusiasm for women pushing into the good bits of male territory, but the bad bits? Much less so. Look at the alternatives to Lord of the Flies that were suggested on this thread - all three were actually stories of female victims fighting back against male oppressors.
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I'm not saying women cannot be violent, just commenting on the inaccuracy of your statement.

And few would claim that women *can't* be violent, the claim is usually that they are violent much less frequently than men.

Added to the empiric evidence on this and the physical changes that testosterone causes, I was thinking this morning of getting a pet dog snipped because of its aggressive behaviour. This is a very reliable way of moderating behaviour in dogs.

No it isn't, it really isn't. Never neuter a male dog for this reason, it can make things worse. They can become especially aggressive towards entire males. Desensitisation training is the answer.
One reason for aggression in dogs is the misunderstanding, by humans, of the social structure of dogs. People send mixed messages as to who is the alpha, leading to the dog thinking it is or being confused.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I don't know, the success of Wonder Woman and Atomic Blonde show that it is possible to push into "male" territory.

There's (rightly) a lot of enthusiasm for women pushing into the good bits of male territory, but the bad bits? Much less so. Look at the alternatives to Lord of the Flies that were suggested on this thread - all three were actually stories of female victims fighting back against male oppressors.
There is little enthusiasm for women pushing into male territory in any way. There is too small a sample to really make any conclusion about what kind of progress might be made. Hollywood have a poor track record of reading the reason for success as well. The lesson they "learn" from Wonder Woman will not likely be strong female director, story from a female POV and strong female lead. They will learn Female superhero sells. Possibly with female director attached.
We've a ways yet to go before gender casting isn't the predominant paradigm.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Jane R
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Hiro's Leap:
quote:
...intuition would suggest that Queens would be less warlike than Kings, but even that isn't true.
European queens were operating in societies which expected the monarch to be a war leader when the situation required it. Forget the guff about 'division of labo(u)r'. They were in a traditionally male role in patriarchal societies; they had to show at least as much aggression towards their enemies as a king would in the same position, or they'd have been toast. Some of them may have overcompensated.
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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
One reason for aggression in dogs is the misunderstanding, by humans, of the social structure of dogs. People send mixed messages as to who is the alpha, leading to the dog thinking it is or being confused.

You are right that it's about misunderstanding by humans, but it's a misunderstanding of dog body language, not their social structure.

Early observations of wolf pack behavior were made on animals in a zoo. These were unrelated individuals thrown together in a small space, and then left to sink or swim in strange surroundings. When forced together in such a stressful situation the wolves answer was to fight for the best places to sleep or the first helping of food. They fought for food and territory because in the zoo these were precious resources.

Satellite tracking and GPS allows scientists to watch wolf packs in the wild. It turns out that after all they live in comfortable family groups. They keep order based on a parent-offspring model, with older wolves being in charge because they have more life experience.

They eat together - none of this ‘alpha male eats first’ business much copied by certain dog trainers - and share domestic duties within the home territory. Just like any family, most of the time they get along well enough, with the occasional ruckus when a misunderstanding occurs. But the important message is that dominance does not exist in the form we were once led to believe.

It's a dubunked theory in modern dog training. Guide Dogs use entirely reward based training.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
One reason for aggression in dogs is the misunderstanding, by humans, of the social structure of dogs. People send mixed messages as to who is the alpha, leading to the dog thinking it is or being confused.

You are right that it's about misunderstanding by humans, but it's a misunderstanding of dog body language, not their social structure.
From what I have read, what was debunked was the structure and nature of social dominance, not its existence. The strict hierarchy once assumed is more subtle and variable.
I would also argue that a human/animal relationship bears at least as much a similarity to the zoo scenario as it does the wild. Misreading body language is part of the lack of understanding, not a separate cause.
Though, yes, alpha is not the best term to use.
That aside, the point is that dogs are not furry people and should not be treated as such. Understanding how they think leads to better behaviour.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Boogie

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Not dominance - leadership.

Dogs love clear, consistent leadership. In a dog’s world leadership is all about guidance, love, and security, and this sense of security born out of consistency. Our leadership is about setting a daily routine, about letting the dog know what the rules are, teaching him when he does well etc.

None of this is dominance.

I'll stop now as it's rather off subject 🙂

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Penny S
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Yesterday there was a discussion on the radio about bullying in schools, and many of the callers to the programme were talking about female bullying - which is my experience is much more common than male bullying from identifiable "alpha" boys. (I don't like the term, but they think they are the top dog, and others respond to it. But they are rare.)
My guest said there was no bullying at her school, perhaps because it was a long time back. I cited a woman known to me of the same age, who knew more than she should about how girls bully. She said it was because she was working class, and I started to tell how I was bullied at a private school, but not at the state school with working class girls, only I didn't get that far.
The conversation got into why was I bullied and then I suddenly realised what was happening, as it was led towards what could be seen as female relational bullying, even including exclusion from the group of guest and son. It was rather funny in a way, especially as I suspect it has never occurred to her that a succession of put downs is bullying, and she only thinks of it as physical attacks.
I can see a female LOTF as being extremely nasty, with exclusions, probably of girls with useful skills, denial of resources (someone I know was bullied in the same school as me by being denied access to the loos at break time), theft of useful property and so on. With the need inherent in the situation for social support, its removal would be deadly. Some girls could end up as menials.
It might not result in pig heads and murder, but it would be nasty. But nuanced, and not full of cat fights.

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Anselmina
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
I occassionally wonder if some chemical testosterone suppression of all male new borns could be a future consideration.
That being if we truly have the collective desire for humanity to persist in peace and harmony for the unforseeable.

As it's necessary for political and power elites, of whatever kind of society humans live in, to have at hand a committed, obedient militia to sustain their exercise of power, it's never going to be a serious consideration.

Although I suppose in theory there's nothing to stop a 'Brave New World' approach to mucking about with the rest of the working population.

I'm quite sure Kim Jong Un is about as personally physically aggressive and tough as a drowned meringue, but he's punching above his weight just for now because he's at the head of a country whose militia are, apparently, willing to give the last drop of their life's-blood to promote his will; to say nothing of how much of others' blood they'd be content to spill in the same cause. Astonishing how far nepotism, isolationism, controlling the media, and a sycophantic power-greedy (and shit-scared) political regime can take you!

Having said that, of course Pharaoh did try to neutralize the aggressive potential of the Hebrew slaves by having the little baby boys drowned at birth. But that kind of back-fired, too. (And I'm bound to say that even that was down to the women; clever midwives!)

Seriously though, the biological make-up of human beings, must to some sacramental degree, be 'in the image' of God. The challenge of male testosterone is surely, just like in all our sexual urges and other appetites, about control, submission to God, and using it to the common benefit.

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mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
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I find these discussions interesting, due to our family circumstances.

My wife 'takes it like a man' in a high-pressure corporate environment, and works long hours. She seems to need it.

I'm a stereotypical man in that my hobbies are generally among other men, messing with machines, getting covered in oil (ooh-er) or shitting in the woods. I work (PT) in that male environment too. But I'm also 'mother' to my kids when I drop them at school and hear about their day when they come in at 3:15. I make their tea, hang the washing out and wash up. Sometimes I hoover. We do craft projects together.

I've tried to be very gender neutral with my 2 girls. They like coming in the shed with me and making things. Dolls are available too, and cooking is a big thing at the moment. They never much got into the train set or scalextric.

They liked climbing in an abandoned Russian tank on holiday. But they preferred playing with an older teenage girl's make-up.

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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
I occassionally wonder if some chemical testosterone suppression of all male new borns could be a future consideration.
That being if we truly have the collective desire for humanity to persist in peace and harmony for the unforseeable.

.....Seriously though, the biological make-up of human beings, must to some sacramental degree, be 'in the image' of God. The challenge of male testosterone is surely, just like in all our sexual urges and other appetites, about control, submission to God, and using it to the common benefit.
When not indulging in armchair eugenics l am inclined to agree with your last paragraph there.

The effects of testosterone can be overridden as is proven in the case in all male Buddhist communities which are undeniably peaceful.
It is the narrative which is fed to males which makes the difference. When a Country goes to war, as happened here twice in the last Century, males are obliged and indeed compelled to engage with there violent side. When it is all over society expected them to just switch it off.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Robert Armin

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Has anyone else read Margaret Attwood's Catseye? As a bloke, I found it very informative about the reality of female bullying.

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:

I've tried to be very gender neutral with my 2 girls.

The rest of their world isn't gender neutral.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16963 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
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# 1468

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RA--

Haven't read the book, but girls very definitely bully--particularly other girls.

I was on the receiving end--including an informal gang of girls who beat me up at schoo. Teachers walked right past. When someone finally intervened, it was only resolved in my favor because an administrator knew me.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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rolyn
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# 16840

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Female and male are made out of the same kind of goo,
Even though each has been assigned a different job to do.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Female and male are made out of the same kind of goo,
Even though each has been assigned a different job to do.

A different job?

I think not.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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Assigned? I'm a bloke so I was designed to be a bricklayer?

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the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

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rolyn
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# 16840

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Well I certainly havn't been designed to grow a new person inside of me. And had I lived 100 yrs ago, aged between 18 and 40 years, I'd now be in a muddy hole with a spike on the end of a gun. Being required to use it in order to destroy a person.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Well I certainly havn't been designed to grow a new person inside of me.

I wish men had, then we can be equal in that as well as everything else.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Aravis
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# 13824

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I would second the recommendation of Margaret Atwood's"Cats Eye" but it is very disturbing.
Jacqueline Wilson is also convincing at describing how girls bully one another. I have to admit to being quite attached to "Bad Girls"; I felt she understood aspects of my childhood which I've found it difficult to explain to other people.

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Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Female and male are made out of the same kind of goo,
Even though each has been assigned a different loo.

Fixed it.

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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rolyn
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# 16840

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[Big Grin]

Ahh, now there is a sig.

The harmonising of the entire Comos

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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