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Source: (consider it) Thread: Big Boom
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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Israel doesn't talk much. She acts. Dimona's been running since '58. Seven years later they may well have availed themselves of hundreds of pounds of enriched uranium from the States: The Apollo Affair. Two years before the Six Day War. I recall in the summer of '79 Menachem Begin saying, before the Camp David Accords, that if Israel had to pull down the temple of humanity, she would. There was only one way she could have done that.

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Love wins

Posts: 16899 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:


@Og - how could China implode? Otherwise yes, ignore the nukes like we have since the 80s.

...

Who knows how China could implode but things happen - history is long.

BTW, never said ignore the Nukes. Just get used to the threat potential. Its the only way to live and not go nuts.

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

Posts: 5021 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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Aye, I don't do unquantifiable threats, so I'll be ignoring the nukes and any scenario involving the collapse of China: big bangs and big sucks. It's going to be amusing how Trump makes a win out of being completely outwitted by Kim.

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Love wins

Posts: 16899 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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This is instructive as to why NK absolutely needs nukes, to keep the USA and it's friend UK at bay.

Cooperate with negotiated disarming of weapons of mass destruction and they will invade you and kill you.

As quoted, the NK foreign ministry stated when the USA/UK arranged Libya's regime change;
[quote]Libya’s nuclear disarmament much touted by the U.S. in the past turned out to be a mode of aggression whereby the latter coaxed the former with such sweet words as ‘guarantee of security’ and ‘improvement of relations’ to disarm itself and then swallowed it up by force.[/url]

NK is better to keep the weapons and if negotiations occur to do them from a position of force, not weakness given history. NK also observed: “The Saddam Hussein regime in Iraq and the Gaddafi regime in Libya could not escape the fate of destruction after being deprived of their foundations for nuclear development and giving up nuclear programmes of their own accord,”

Sounds completely rational doesn't it?

Posts: 11082 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047

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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
I never worked out why Israel wanted the existence of its nukes kept secret. I suppose it had something to do with the Americans getting shitty. I thought you were supposed to tell everyone you had nukes so that they would think twice about attacking you. That's what the North Koreans are doing.

Does anybody remember those heady days in the 1950's when every man and his dog wanted a nuke? Even Australia was trying to get one. And the Americans went around the place saying "No no no, you don't need the bomb. We'll protect you."

I think the idea may have been that denying it meant the threat was still tangible but wouldn't necessarily compel Israel's neighbours to seek nuclear weapons to maintain parity. Also allowed Israel to practice US-style no-one-else-can-have-wmd policies with the pretence of not being hypocritical. Ultimately it's a huge exercise in attempting to have your cake and eat it.
Posts: 2837 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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@Are... it's a lot simpler than that and they've never denied it.

@No... I initially felt in full agreement, but I suspect that there are no comparisons. Iran isn't going to implode with our without outside pressure due to the lack of nukes. Its security WILL be maintained, by Russia and America. How would Saddam and Gaddafi having nukes have kept them in power? How would Kim not having nukes had cost him power? Those are open questions. Having a massive nuclear arsenal didn't keep the Soviet Communist Party in power. I'm sure it helped for forty years. I'm sure it helps cohere internal control through a military class. It does that everywhere, even in bumbling little Britain. Where nukes played no direct part at all in the Falklands. Makes for an interestingly different chess game every time.

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Love wins

Posts: 16899 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Martin: USSR was not directly threatened with aggression from without. Nukes deter aggression. If a despot is threatened with invasion, out comes nuke threat as deterent. Invasion doesn't even get planned then.

Make no mistake, we rhyme with mid19th century history but our bombs and egos are bigger, and its all on Twitter, Youtube and recycled by professional propagandists. And it does good distraction from Bigly politicians and local incompetence.

Posts: 11082 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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No... yeaahhss. Not sure why that's germane. We all know that. Having a nuke deters invasion. It didn't deter Argentina. It doesn't guarantee your regime's survival. Not having a nuke doesn't mean your regime - no matter how nasty - won't survive. Kim was doing fine without nukes.

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Love wins

Posts: 16899 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged



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