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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Catalonia Independence
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Interesting stuff, betjemaniac. It reminds me of the so-called historical unconscious, and the political unconscious,, which used to be a popular topic among new lefties. One interesting idea is that repressed stuff festers for long periods, and eventually bursts out. An example is the role of genocide and slavery in the US, and also in the British empire, which can be claimed to be still taking their toll. However, such ideas are pretty unfalsifiable.
[ 04. October 2017, 15:54: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Canada had a near-death experience,
Canada wouldn't have died, it would just have got a bit smaller and gained a new neighbour.
You haven't a clue about which you opine.
If Quebec had seceded there would still have been quite a lot of Canada left. The nation would, therefore, still be alive.
The same would be true of the U.K. after a Scottish secession, and of Spain after a Catalan secession.
For that matter, the same is true of Ethiopia after Eritrea seceded and Indonesia after East Timor seceded. Both countries are still very much alive, just smaller and with new neighbours. So what’s the problem?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Is there any reasoning to suggest that either side is the equivalent of the Franco fascists and the other the non-fascists?
If so, which is which?
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arse
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Is there any reasoning to suggest that either side is the equivalent of the Franco fascists and the other the non-fascists?
If so, which is which?
One side is seeking a democratic vote to decide what should be done, the other is sending in the troops to ensure it gets its own way regardless of what anyone else thinks.
Seems pretty clear to me.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
One side is seeking a democratic vote to decide what should be done, the other is sending in the troops to ensure it gets its own way regardless of what anyone else thinks.
Seems pretty clear to me.
I see. So you're saying that the Madrid government is exactly overlapping the fascists because their actions are - apparently - similar.
That's not very credible, Marvin.
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arse
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
Hey, you asked the question. And “carrying out actions with a superficial similarity to those carried out by fascists” seems to be enough to call certain other organisations fascist, so...
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Hey, you asked the question. And “carrying out actions with a superficial similarity to those carried out by fascists” seems to be enough to call certain other organisations fascist, so...
OK I guess I should have been more precise. Fascism is an ideology that means certain things. It isn't simply about a state using plastic bullets - otherwise it might have been said that the British were fascists in NI.
The question I'm asking is whether it is possible to actually, politically, associate any of the parties in the current crisis with Franco-style fascism.
The reason is that I don't know. I understand that the Madrid government is vaguely conservative and that the Catalonia regime is generally socialist, but I don't know if either has really anything to link them with Franco and fascism.
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arse
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
I don’t think so either, to be fair.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
A retired (Anglican) priest of my acquaintance spends a couple of months each autumn (i.e. round about now) ministering to an ex-pat congregation in Catalonia. His off-the-cuff take on this affair is that it is, in fact, a sort of continuation of the Spanish Civil War.
Whether he is right or not, I leave to others more knowledgeable to decide.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Fascism is an ideology that means certain things. It isn't simply about a state using plastic bullets - otherwise it might have been said that the British were fascists in NI.
I suspect that the IRA said exactly that.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Fascism as a term is used loosely, and more narrowly. The narrow definition is to do with a corporate state, whereby functions such as trade unions are directly incorporated into the state machine. For example, the Deutsche Arbeitsfront, (labour front), for which membership was compulsory (I think).
The loose definition is just somebody I don't like. Hence there are right-wing fascists and left-wing fascists and Islamist fascists. By now, the term is losing meaning.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Fair comment.
I still haven't seen anything about how Catalunya del Nord - that part of Catalonia within France since 1659 - regards the current turmoil south of the border.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I call sending out-of-province police in to a province to violently suppress a referendum that the head of state respectively overlooks and condemns, fascism, in the perfectly meaningful, well understood, colloquial sense.
Happy to be 'wrong', as I apparently am on my personal, idiosyncratic definition of terrorism (having basically bugger all to do with religion) in another place.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Canada had a near-death experience,
Canada wouldn't have died, it would just have got a bit smaller and gained a new neighbour.
You haven't a clue about which you opine.
I would underline this. There would have been a period of great instability (including the likely departure of the PM and no replacement with a democratic mandate, and the mandate of a quarter of the House of Commons being put in play) and Canada's existence would have depended on: a) helpful provincial premiers, and b) a helpful southern neighbour (likely so, with Bill Clinton as president). There was no plan B aside from a few bureaucrats busily drawing up scenarios while their masters quietly looked the other way. I understand that there were US officials churning out options documents.
While the US was not going to immediately recognize a Québec declaration, at least one major European power and about a dozen other countries were planning to do so. Having been there at the time, I do not believe that Marvin's optimism can be sustained. A possible good result is not always a likely result.
King Felipe's choices were limited; either follow the constitution as advised by Rajoy, or pull an Alfonso XIII, dismissing his premier and bringing in personal rule. That didn't work out very well and Alfonso had to take his exit a few years later, with a short-lived republic and civil war to follow.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
I still don't get why it would have been an existential threat to the rest of the nation. Were the other provinces also champing at the bit to secede or something? Is Quebec the only thing preventing the nation's enemies from overrunning it?
Sure, there would have been change and uncertainty for a while. But change and uncertainty happen all the time in politics.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I still don't get why it would have been an existential threat to the rest of the nation. Were the other provinces also champing at the bit to secede or something? Is Quebec the only thing preventing the nation's enemies from overrunning it?
Sure, there would have been change and uncertainty for a while. But change and uncertainty happen all the time in politics.
Two factors: at the time, national identity was not as strong as it is now, and much polling supported provincial governments' province-first positioning. This introduced a significant element of risk.
As well, we have the ancient and very strong fact that north-south routes and connexions are greater factors in North American economic life. With a chunk taken out of the middle, there is no real east-west connexion any longer, and a diminished requirement for a national government which facilitates such. Several serious commentators have suggested that Canada had a 3-2 chance of continuing-- not a strong set of odds.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
This is an unstoppable revolution now the king has revealed himself to be king of non-Catalan Spain only. A small, disappointing king. What a shame.
In fairness to His Majesty, the question on the ballot paper was 'Do you want Catalonia to be an independent state, in the form of a Republic?' which seems needlessly to be conflating republicanism with secessionism (unlike the Scottish referendum) - so it's a bit rich of Catalan separatists to be complaining now that he won't arbitrate in a neutral manner.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
This is an unstoppable revolution now the king has revealed himself to be king of non-Catalan Spain only. A small, disappointing king. What a shame.
In fairness to His Majesty, the question on the ballot paper was 'Do you want Catalonia to be an independent state, in the form of a Republic?' which seems needlessly to be conflating republicanism with secessionism (unlike the Scottish referendum) - so it's a bit rich of Catalan separatists to be complaining now that he won't arbitrate in a neutral manner.
His poor Majesty. Forced to act in such a graceless, unregal, small minded, self interested manner.
[ 04. October 2017, 20:45: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I still don't get why it would have been an existential threat to the rest of the nation. Were the other provinces also champing at the bit to secede or something? Is Quebec the only thing preventing the nation's enemies from overrunning it?
Sure, there would have been change and uncertainty for a while. But change and uncertainty happen all the time in politics.
Aside from what Augustine said, you would have had
a) The departure of 1/4 or so of the Federal Cabinet
b) The loss of 25% of the federal Public Service, including the senior Public Service who would be critical in such times;
c) The complete loss of territorial integrity between Ontario and the West on one hand and the Atlantic Provinces on another.
d) A rump Canada in which one province Ontario would constitute nearly 50% of the population, and I can't see the other provinces submitting to a defacto Ontario dictatorship. Ungovernable, unstable and untenable.
Or as the erstwhile Eric Williams of Jamaica said of the abortive West Indies Federation: "One from Ten leaves nought." When Jamaica left, the federation collapsed. And so with Canada.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
This is an unstoppable revolution now the king has revealed himself to be king of non-Catalan Spain only. A small, disappointing king. What a shame.
In fairness to His Majesty, the question on the ballot paper was 'Do you want Catalonia to be an independent state, in the form of a Republic?' which seems needlessly to be conflating republicanism with secessionism (unlike the Scottish referendum) - so it's a bit rich of Catalan separatists to be complaining now that he won't arbitrate in a neutral manner.
Those of us whose insomnia have driven us to a review of the Spanish constitution realize that Felipe is a constitutional monarch, and all of his acts must be countersigned by a minister. He can only arbitrate if Rajoy agrees that he should. Given President Rajoy's open, imaginative, and flexible response to the issue...
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
a) The departure of 1/4 or so of the Federal Cabinet
b) The loss of 25% of the federal Public Service, including the senior Public Service who would be critical in such times;
Meh, politicians and public servants can easily be replaced. That said...
quote:
c) The complete loss of territorial integrity between Ontario and the West on one hand and the Atlantic Provinces on another.
d) A rump Canada in which one province Ontario would constitute nearly 50% of the population, and I can't see the other provinces submitting to a defacto Ontario dictatorship. Ungovernable, unstable and untenable.
OK, I accept that the dissolution of Canada was a realistic possibility at the time. Next question: why would it be a bad thing? What would be wrong with the various provinces going it alone or banding together as they wish?
quote:
Or as the erstwhile Eric Williams of Jamaica said of the abortive West Indies Federation: "One from Ten leaves nought." When Jamaica left, the federation collapsed. And so with Canada.
Those Caribbean islands are just fine as independent nations. Each one is free to govern itself as its people see fit rather than having to submit to some overarching system over which it has minimal control. Sounds good to me.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Or Let's Just get Annexed by the USA.
Or why don't we let Liverpool and Manchester declare independence, if we take your assertion to its logical conclusion? It's about the same level of absurdity.
And what would those islands have been like with a strong system of transfers, a robust internal market and enough emergency capability to look after themselves domestically after a devastating hurricane?
The offshore banking industry might have been replaced with something that is actually productive.....
Eventually you get so small you whither away to nothingness. The only
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Pangolin Guerre
Shipmate
# 18686
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Canada had a near-death experience,
Canada wouldn't have died, it would just have got a bit smaller and gained a new neighbour.
You haven't a clue about which you opine.
If Quebec had seceded there would still have been quite a lot of Canada left. The nation would, therefore, still be alive.
The same would be true of the U.K. after a Scottish secession, and of Spain after a Catalan secession.
For that matter, the same is true of Ethiopia after Eritrea seceded and Indonesia after East Timor seceded. Both countries are still very much alive, just smaller and with new neighbours. So what’s the problem?
Aside from the correct points made by Augustine and SPK, I would add that for many of us, the French component is key to our identity. As the phrase went in 1995, Mon Canada comprend Quebec*, for me not just as an abstraction; for me the French fact is very much part of my lived experience. To lose that would be devastating to my identity as a Canadian. But, I don't expect you to understand that, given your dismissive and flippant tone.
*"My Canada includes Quebec". And, yes, it puns with "understands"
And now, back to our Iberian programming....
Posts: 758 | From: 30 arpents de neige | Registered: Nov 2016
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
I think if your national identity is dependent on other people, who aren't you, remaining part of your country when they don't want to be part of your country, then your national identity is not worth preserving.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Those Caribbean islands are just fine as independent nations. Each one is free to govern itself as its people see fit rather than having to submit to some overarching system over which it has minimal control. Sounds good to me.
Having heard from people in government in small Caribbean island states, I think it is an exaggeration to say that they're "just fine" as independent states.
In fact the Small Island States are at enormous risk from various effects of climate change - and isolation, the world economy, extreme events and low resilience to disasters.
I'm sure that there are good reasons to be independent, but I'm pretty sure that places like the British Virgin Islands - which is a non-independent relic of British colonialism - stands a better chance of being helped and rebuilt than other small independent nations.
As far as I understand it, there is a general sense that there are a number of small island states which are basically too small to be viable. Some of these have banded together in various ways to share resources and risk, but there is only so much that they can do.
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arse
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I think if your national identity is dependent on other people, who aren't you, remaining part of your country when they don't want to be part of your country, then your national identity is not worth preserving.
That seems a bit defeatist. If you have a community in a city which is increasingly excluded from the majority culture, surely the thing to do is to make efforts to include them.
If Canadians generally think that Canada is better off with Quebec than apart then maybe they'll be more willing to listen when the residents of Quebec talk about their different culture, language and history and maybe they'll be more open to changing the way that Canada works to enable more self-expression, devolution and self-government.
It seems to me that there is more than one approach to be taken when a part of a country seems to want to leave other than slamming the door in their face.
Of course, if one has promised concessions to get them to stay, as with Scotland, one then has to follow through with them. Because going back on that kind of thing makes everyone pissed.
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arse
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
This is an unstoppable revolution now the king has revealed himself to be king of non-Catalan Spain only. A small, disappointing king. What a shame.
In fairness to His Majesty, the question on the ballot paper was 'Do you want Catalonia to be an independent state, in the form of a Republic?' which seems needlessly to be conflating republicanism with secessionism (unlike the Scottish referendum) - so it's a bit rich of Catalan separatists to be complaining now that he won't arbitrate in a neutral manner.
Those of us whose insomnia have driven us to a review of the Spanish constitution realize that Felipe is a constitutional monarch, and all of his acts must be countersigned by a minister. He can only arbitrate if Rajoy agrees that he should. Given President Rajoy's open, imaginative, and flexible response to the issue...
Yes but.
all that notwithstanding, there is a post Franco tradition of the King doing exactly that, regardless of what the constitution says. See death of Franco/transition to democracy, also the attempted coup in 1981.
I would say that if you'd read the last 40 years of Spanish history rather than the constitution you might see why a Catalan republican might expect the king to step in at this point and be even handed - without prejudice to their hopes for a republican future.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
If you have a community in a city which is increasingly excluded from the majority culture, surely the thing to do is to make efforts to include them.
Yes, that is the sensible thing. But, human beings being human beings, and politicians being politicians, the sensible rarely happens. What tends to happen is the minority community gets increasingly excluded, and their efforts to integrate ignored. There comes a point when members of a minority community hear the "you're not part of us" message from the majority culture enough times that they, not unreasonably, respond with "fine, then we'll be ourselves and not even try". That happens on an individual level (like a colleague who has lived here almost 20 years and only spoke Italian when calling her mother, even when getting her morning coffee from a family-owned Italian coffee shop, who after June 2016, along with other Italian born people here, has a morning conversation in Italian while getting her coffee) and on national scales (such as seeking independence for particular regions).
quote:
Of course, if one has promised concessions to get them to stay, as with Scotland, one then has to follow through with them. Because going back on that kind of thing makes everyone pissed.
The SNP lead Scottish government bottled it after the promises made during and after the 2014 referendum were dropped, in particular the promised EU membership. Bottling it like that damages their credibility, and impacts electability (eg: loss of Westminster seats between 2015 and 2017).
The Catalonian government are in a strong position. The disruption to the referendum playing right into their hands, and though that disruption does make the result questionable they have political capital from it. If they bottle it now they're likely to lose credibility as a strong government. Though, probably not push things to the point of civil war.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Let's hope that mediation through the Vatican obtains.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
That's a positive thought. Well said, sir.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
This is an unstoppable revolution now the king has revealed himself to be king of non-Catalan Spain only. A small, disappointing king. What a shame.
In fairness to His Majesty, the question on the ballot paper was 'Do you want Catalonia to be an independent state, in the form of a Republic?' which seems needlessly to be conflating republicanism with secessionism (unlike the Scottish referendum) - so it's a bit rich of Catalan separatists to be complaining now that he won't arbitrate in a neutral manner.
Those of us whose insomnia have driven us to a review of the Spanish constitution realize that Felipe is a constitutional monarch, and all of his acts must be countersigned by a minister. He can only arbitrate if Rajoy agrees that he should. Given President Rajoy's open, imaginative, and flexible response to the issue...
Yes but.
all that notwithstanding, there is a post Franco tradition of the King doing exactly that, regardless of what the constitution says. See death of Franco/transition to democracy, also the attempted coup in 1981.
I would say that if you'd read the last 40 years of Spanish history rather than the constitution you might see why a Catalan republican might expect the king to step in at this point and be even handed - without prejudice to their hopes for a republican future.
Knowing what a constitution says is useful in talking about a constitutional democracy. Still, I've got a shelf of volumes on the topic and am only now ploughing through Jeremy Treglown's Franco's Crypt. I used to think that only my really bad Castilian (not even an A level for fans of Canadian government language criteria) stands in the way of my reading more, but my Spanish friends tell me that they rely more on English historians of Spain that they do on their own-- more trustworthy and objective, I am told.
I fear that you defeat your own argument. Juan Carlos' 1981 intervention was to save the constitutional government from a military coup-- perhaps the most useful thing done by a monarch anywhere in the past century, and was easily countersignable by a minister in retrospect.
While I think that his son should spoken to cool the temperature and to have opened a door to the Catalans on the basis that an open door is never a bad thing, he may have been addressing his comments to another audience-- an occasionally restive military which, IIRC, about 8 years ago was muttering about its role in maintaining Spanish unity. I think that Juan Carlos would have handled it with more panache and to better effect but that's for the counterfactual discussion (Lagavulin 16-year old required).
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Well, FWIW, I rather got the impression that HM Felipe VI was somewhat out of his depth. As you say, Juan Carlos dealt with the 1981 affair quite well.
Even constitutional monarchs don't always have an easy time of it, or get it right (apart from our own beloved Betty, of course!).
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Pangolin Guerre
Shipmate
# 18686
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Posted
Ricardus wrote:
I think if your national identity is dependent on other people, who aren't you, remaining part of your country when they don't want to be part of your country, then your national identity is not worth preserving.
And Mr Cheesy wrote:
If Canadians generally think that Canada is better off with Quebec than apart then maybe they'll be more willing to listen when the residents of Quebec talk about their different culture, language and history and maybe they'll be more open to changing the way that Canada works to enable more self-expression, devolution and self-government.
******
First, Ricardus, you're working on the assumption that the Quebecois are not Canadian, or are somehow external to that identity rather than integral to it, which is exactly what both the separatists and the hardcore anti-quebecois want you to believe. It's those of who embrace/wrestle with this complexity of multiple components in a single identity who are the creative instinct of the Canadian identity - and who consequently get it from both extremes.
Mr Cheesy, you also have drunk deeply of the well of separatism. Your depiction of the Quebecois as under the iron heel of the Anglo is straight-out PQ propaganda. Whatever the truth of that pre-1960s (and even then, the picture is more complex than that sort of binary relationship), Quebec has powers of which Scotland dreams. Evidence of our success in our dialogue is the notable lack of appetite for separatism in Quebec. And, to be frank, exhaustion has played no small part.
It never ceases to amaze me how people free to pronounce on what they have only the most glancing acquaintance. I remember the Canadian correspondent for the NYT at the time of the referendum spouting the most ill-informed bilge as though his chief informant was Parizeau genial man who was fond of "By Jove", but who in his concession speech said that they were defeated by money and the ethnic vote*. That doesn't demonstrate a very enlightened or inclusive approach.
*(Parizeau's words: "... par quoi? Par l'argent pis des votes ethniques, essentiallement.")
[ 05. October 2017, 14:17: Message edited by: Pangolin Guerre ]
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Well, FWIW, I rather got the impression that HM Felipe VI was somewhat out of his depth. As you say, Juan Carlos dealt with the 1981 affair quite well.
IJ
Probably in no small part down to the fact that Franco groomed JC for decades as successor - it is entirely to Juan Carlos' credit that he used that skill/learning/inheritance instead to oversee the transition to democracy and then stop the backsliding.
Felipe hasn't had that sort of training, because he's always been supposed to be a consitutional monarch. Juan Carlos was supposed to continue the Movimiento and step up to the eminence of the departed Caudillo.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
Mr Cheesy, you also have drunk deeply of the well of separatism. Your depiction of the Quebecois as under the iron heel of the Anglo is straight-out PQ propaganda. Whatever the truth of that pre-1960s (and even then, the picture is more complex than that sort of binary relationship), Quebec has powers of which Scotland dreams. Evidence of our success in our dialogue is the notable lack of appetite for separatism in Quebec. And, to be frank, exhaustion has played no small part.
I don't know how you got that from what I wrote.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
Mr Cheesy, you also have drunk deeply of the well of separatism. Your depiction of the Quebecois as under the iron heel of the Anglo is straight-out PQ propaganda. Whatever the truth of that pre-1960s (and even then, the picture is more complex than that sort of binary relationship), Quebec has powers of which Scotland dreams. Evidence of our success in our dialogue is the notable lack of appetite for separatism in Quebec. And, to be frank, exhaustion has played no small part.
I don't know how you got that from what I wrote.
I don't know about Pangolin, but what I got is that you've likely not delved into the particulars of how over the past forty years federal powers have been transferred to the provinces, often asymmetrically in that Québec was the only province interested (e.g., the Cullen-Couture and succeeding versions accord on immigration, where Québec selects immigrants to suit its linguistic and developmental goals). You should not feel guilty about this, as it is really only of interest to federalism geeks and few of them can be found outside insane asylums or think tanks.
One of my former colleagues, an indépendantiste of long standing from the long-gone days of the Rassemblement, told me why she is no longer a sovereignist: "We were worried about our language disappearing, and now we're not. We were worried about being ignored, and now we're not. We were worried about not running our own show, and now we're not. We have an international voice, and the federal government helps. Why do we need another set of borders?"
Much the same process has been happening in Spain, but with stealth rather than fanfare. Walking through Catalonia - by my rough reckoning about 1,200km by foot through dozens of small towns and its large cities-- I saw how Catalan, once suppressed as a language, is now the default tongue outside Barcelona, and how Catalan culture flourishes comfortably. This is all due to the space created by the 1978 constitution. The real problem is: a) the still-prevalent franquist notion of a Spain "indivisible and great," and b) the ambition (and corruption??) of Catalan nationalist politicians. There is much greater tension in the Basque country, where almost no Castilian bothers to learn the language, and a recent history of nasty killing, but that's for another thread.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
First, Ricardus, you're working on the assumption that the Quebecois are not Canadian, or are somehow external to that identity rather than integral to it, which is exactly what both the separatists and the hardcore anti-quebecois want you to believe. It's those of who embrace/wrestle with this complexity of multiple components in a single identity who are the creative instinct of the Canadian identity - and who consequently get it from both extremes.
FWIW I've been wondering all day if I should, ahem, 'clarify those remarks', as the politicians call it.
What I'm getting at is that if Canadian identity is conceived to be pluralistic and diverse, and if the Québécois no longer wish to be Canadian, then that pluralistic diversity was illusory, whether or not the Québécois do in fact separate. Which I suppose in fact supports SPK's comment that Québécois separation would mark the death of Canada.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
I suppose it's too much to expect Spain to accept the split, acknowledge Catalonia as a separate, independent, sovereign state (presumably allowing the EU to do likewise), and then to sit down with President Puigdemont to work out a sensible working arrangement.
Well yes, not least because even if the Spanish government was willing to recognise an independent Catalonia, I reckon it would be a matter of hours before someone filed proceedings in the Spanish courts to declare that Madrid didn't have the legal power to do that. Basically a Spanish version of R (Miller) v Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union.
Only it would be even more difficult, because the problem probably couldn't be overcome by the Spanish parliament simply passing legislation empowering the government. It would require constitutional change, and therefore a referendum in which all Spain voted.
And is that really such a bad thing? We have got used to the idea that if a region wants to secede, it's a matter for the inhabitants of that region alone. But why should a minority have the right to disrupt - sometimes repeatedly - the affairs of the entire state without the rest of its citizens having a say?
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Fuck them.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
You overlook the importance of consent.
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
First, Ricardus, you're working on the assumption that the Quebecois are not Canadian, or are somehow external to that identity rather than integral to it, which is exactly what both the separatists and the hardcore anti-quebecois want you to believe. It's those of who embrace/wrestle with this complexity of multiple components in a single identity who are the creative instinct of the Canadian identity - and who consequently get it from both extremes.
FWIW I've been wondering all day if I should, ahem, 'clarify those remarks', as the politicians call it.
What I'm getting at is that if Canadian identity is conceived to be pluralistic and diverse, and if the Québécois no longer wish to be Canadian, then that pluralistic diversity was illusory, whether or not the Québécois do in fact separate. Which I suppose in fact supports SPK's comment that Québécois separation would mark the death of Canada.
Which is my point. Countries don't die when they split up, they die when people stop believing in them. A great many people up and down the Province of Québec tried their utmost to make Quebeckers stop believing in Canada. They very nearly succeeded.
I remember the 1995 Referendum. For most of the campaign, The Other Provinces were told to Stay Out of It. Like we had no part in the relationship, no stake in the outcome, or no feelings about it. By the last week we were tearing our hair out.
And then the tide broke. In the Hail Mary pass of all Hail Mary passes, some senior federal politicians organized a Unity Rally in Montreal. 60,000 people including the premiers of the three other founding provinces turned up. It was just enough to convince the barest majority to stay.
I went to bed on Referdum Night after seeing my country's life pass before my eyes.
As for multiple sides of identity, as I am going to Montréal tomorrow I will have an excellent opportunity to engage in it. You see, Québec French isn't just for Québecois. As I like to point out, it's English Canada's language too. I probably caused a few people to faint saying that.
Half of my French teachers came from Québec and the other half completed their studies there. I trill my 'R's in the old Montréal way, as my last French tutor did. I have two nieces in French immersion. English Canada doesn't do France-French, on both economic and cultural grounds.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Pangolin Guerre
Shipmate
# 18686
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
First, Ricardus, you're working on the assumption that the Quebecois are not Canadian, or are somehow external to that identity rather than integral to it, which is exactly what both the separatists and the hardcore anti-quebecois want you to believe. It's those of who embrace/wrestle with this complexity of multiple components in a single identity who are the creative instinct of the Canadian identity - and who consequently get it from both extremes.
FWIW I've been wondering all day if I should, ahem, 'clarify those remarks', as the politicians call it.
What I'm getting at is that if Canadian identity is conceived to be pluralistic and diverse, and if the Québécois no longer wish to be Canadian, then that pluralistic diversity was illusory, whether or not the Québécois do in fact separate. Which I suppose in fact supports SPK's comment that Québécois separation would mark the death of Canada.
"Si, si, si ... si ma tante avait des couilles, elle serait mon oncle."* Your piling of ifs is so counterfactual that it's distractingly pointless, and founded on a notable lack of first hand brush with the reality of the history. You're assuming that there is one Quebecois opinion (just as, stupidly, this discussion largely assumes one monolithic Catalan opinion). As I said in an earlier post, were I Catalan, I'd be against independence, but on the street defending my right to vote. Does that make me a centralist, an independist, a (Castilian) Nationalist, or a Catalan nationalist? (The N/n deliberate).
I am committed to the ideal that our Canadian ideal is not illusory... Difficult, a thing always mediated and in flux, but worth the effort. Surely the UK shipmates are now coming to grips with the difficulties, and the stakes, involved, from their own recent experience, and cease being so condescending.
*"If, if, if... if my aunt had balls she's be my uncle." I.e., assume enough, and the absurd is the logical conclusion.
Posts: 758 | From: 30 arpents de neige | Registered: Nov 2016
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Fuck them.
Love wins.
That goes together for you eh?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
que sais-je--
quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I don't know what anyone *should* do. But when I heard on the radio that Catalonia is the wealthiest region of Spain, I figured that was why the Spanish gov't reacted so strongly.
Evidently, the region used to have a fair bit of autonomy, given by the courts--but most of that was later taken away.
I was talking with a friend who has a son living in Catalonia. She's says her son's family (all Catalan) are more angry at being told they can't have a vote than concerned about Catalan independence.
Their view is that Catalan provides 25% of the Spanish GRP (see
various statistic on wikipedia) but get a tiny fraction of government payouts. Which, from the National Government's point of view, makes sense - taxing the rich to support the poor.
Is independence like a marriage divorce? If one partner wants to leave on what grounds should their request be refused?
California is in a similar position, actually. Long history of movements to secede from the US (restarted after the 2016 election), and attempts to split into smaller states. And similar financial situation.
Our governor signed a bill today declaring Calif. a sanctuary *state*. (San Francisco and other places are already sanctuary cities, which limit cooperating with the Feds about turning over illegal immigrants.) And the Feds will probably cancel some of our funding.
I have no real desire to secede, but there are moments...
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Countries don't die when they split up, they die when people stop believing in them.
What does it mean to believe in a country? What makes arbitrary lines drawn (in most cases quite recently) on a map something to believe in?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
..........and if California does try to secede it will be invaded by the United States all the way to the sea!
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
Alan Cresswell quote:
What does it mean to believe in a country?
It means you are an idiot.
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
You overlook the importance of consent.
If I've been such a bastard to my partner, abusing my order of magnitude power over them so that they want a divorce, my 'consent' is all part of the abuse, the delusion of power.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Fuck them.
Love wins.
That goes together for you eh?
See above.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
You overlook the importance of consent.
As in a community allowing itself to be policed, no I haven't.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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