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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Are CEOs worth it?
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
If you don't want to discuss that, why are you here?
I'm on your side here.
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
...No CEO is worth $xx million.
...
No car is worth $3 million.
I agree with both statements. "Worth" is relative and subjective.
I simply wanted to expand the concept beyond CEOs.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
It's not "fair," nor is it right. Company heads get placed on other companies' boards, and then do reciprocal pay-raising, whether the stockholders' dividends justify it or not.
What is it's a privately-owned company. No board of cronies - just a small number of owners deciding how much to pay someone to run their company. Does that change your argument?
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
So a baseball team that pays minimum wage to certain employees in, say, the mail room of the head office, is restricted on what they can play their superstars? If minimum wage is $20,000/year, the player salary would be capped at, for example, $1,000,000?
Sounds like an invitation to contract out all your cleaning, mail room operations and so on to "Big Sports Servicing Ltd.", leaving "Big Sports Team Ltd." to employ the players and coaches.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
So a baseball team that pays minimum wage to certain employees in, say, the mail room of the head office, is restricted on what they can play their superstars? If minimum wage is $20,000/year, the player salary would be capped at, for example, $1,000,000?
Sounds like an invitation to contract out all your cleaning, mail room operations and so on to "Big Sports Servicing Ltd.", leaving "Big Sports Team Ltd." to employ the players and coaches.
Sure. People will always find loopholes. But that doesn't mean the effort to combat income inequality isn't worth pursuing.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
... People will always find loopholes. But that doesn't mean the effort to combat income inequality isn't worth pursuing.
Lawyers are experts at finding loopholes in any legislation, be it taxation or otherwise.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
So a baseball team that pays minimum wage to certain employees in, say, the mail room of the head office, is restricted on what they can play their superstars? If minimum wage is $20,000/year, the player salary would be capped at, for example, $1,000,000?
Sounds like an invitation to contract out all your cleaning, mail room operations and so on to "Big Sports Servicing Ltd.", leaving "Big Sports Team Ltd." to employ the players and coaches.
I think the proposal included provisions to address that.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
... People will always find loopholes. But that doesn't mean the effort to combat income inequality isn't worth pursuing.
Lawyers are experts at finding loopholes in any legislation, be it taxation or otherwise.
Again, yes. Which is a problem to be solved. But not a reason to abandon any attempt to address the dangerous income inequality that currently exists.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
I simply wanted to expand the concept beyond CEOs.
You are not expanding the concept. There are loads of things to which cost is not proportional to benefit. There are different reasons for each category of such. You have not yet shown any that fit in the same category as CEO.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
As mousethief and others have pointed out, sharkshooter has a troublingly naive view of how neoliberal economics works. The idea presented to the hoi polloi is that markets are entirely free and subject only to the "pure" determinative forces of supply and demand. The reality is that a strong state is required in neoliberal dogma for one reason above all - to guarantee the sovereignty of the market. There is nothing free about these markets at all.
It is a bit older now, but the film Inside Job does a decent job at exploding this utterly absurd myth that CEOs are worth their despicable salaries. One of the greatest frauds of all is the destruction of legislation which made possible the "too big to fail" phenomenon. The issue is that massive finance corps face no consequences for their actions, as the state steps in to rescue them when they start to slide. The fallacy of the "free" market thus becomes evident.
And in the final insult, these failed leaders pocket enormous bonuses and golden handshakes for destroying the economy.
Are CEOs worth it? Only if "it" is a lengthy period of incarceration.
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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
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Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
As mousethief and others have pointed out, sharkshooter has a troublingly naive view of how neoliberal economics works. ...
Are CEOs worth it? Only if "it" is a lengthy period of incarceration.
Read for comprehension. I agree with you that they are not worth millions.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
Nice snip. If you read the rest of my post, it deals with your litany of errors.
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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
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Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
Whatever.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Dark Knight has it right: there is much wrong with the idea that markets are free. They are not. Part of business is to manipulate things with laws to your favour. Someone I understand that corporations are people, Thus it is not the people taking any form of risk in business. If something goes wrong, the corp needs the bailout, and individuals are not help responsible, must collect their pay. Then rinse, and repeat with than corp or another.
I had thought at one point we called such corporate control of the political economy fascism or totalitarianism, rather than "received wisdom".
In Saskatchewan, the neo-liberal government tried to put up the provincially owned telecommunications company (SaskTel, provides land lines and cellphone, cable TV, internet, home security systems) up for "partial sale". It had to back down when it became clear the costs were less here than in other provinces for the same services. Which begs the question of how the CEOs and management of Rogers, Bell, Telus etc can justify their compensation. But then, telecommunications is basically a monopoly, and when you privatize a monopoly, the results are probably predictable.
[ 09. December 2017, 18:01: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Ian is complaining CEO's in Australia are getting 78 times more than the average worker in their company.
Try 500 times more than the average worker in companies in the United States!
As I look across the pond, and elsewhere, countries that have a high progressive tax generally have a strong middle class because companies are forced to down pay to the workers rather than up pay to the CEOs
For that reason, I would want to see the US go back to the progressive tax structure of the Eisenhaur years when CEOs were getting about 15 times more than the average worker in their company.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
It goes back to a paradigm shift that happened in the 1980's. Aside from taxes.
The question is: are corporate employers to be viewed as an institution with a long life expectancy, or are they 'ventures' with a five year lifespan?
From the 1930's to the late 1970's, corporations were viewed as institutions. They were long-lived, had broad time horizons, and CEO's were paid to be the chief administrator.
Then along comes the Takeover movement. Hostile takeovers, until this time, had been very, very rare. Now a CEO was now expected to boost profitability and share price over a five-year horizon, or face a hostile takeover.
CEO's became pirates, looking for a ship (company) to plunder for loot and then move on. And were paid for being pirates. Hence the premium.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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wild haggis
Shipmate
# 15555
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Posted
When people who work hard are having to go to food banks to top up; when people can't afford to buy houses with both partners earning good wages; when children are living in B&Bs; when teachers who slog more than 60 hours a week get a pittance with no yearly rise; when nurses who work unsociable hours, care and save lives haven't had a rise within inflation for years and years........yet CEOs, sports stars etc are earning obscene salaries, it's unjust and obscene! No one is worth these salaries. Don't kid yourslef.
The market sucks. It's just used for the rich to get richer and ordinary folks to go to the wall. Where is this market anyway? It's controlled by the rich. So it is self-perpetuating.
CEOs get bonuses when they don't reach the targets that they are supposed to achieve to get the bonus. How can that be fair?
No one needs £500,000 a year to live on! But people need to be able to have roof over their heads and to feed themselves. Many of these CEOs pay their workers disgracefully and yet rake it in. No they aren't worth it - particularly the heads of banks that we, the British public bailed out. They are stealing from us.
Uni Vice -chancellors live a life of Reilly while students are landed with debts of tens of thousands of pounds and junior lecturers who work very hard get paid very little.
There is one word for it all.......GREED!
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wild haggis
Posts: 166 | From: Cardiff | Registered: Mar 2010
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wild haggis
Shipmate
# 15555
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Posted
Let's be clear here not just economic theory or money. We are talking about people. People make these decisions about who gets paid what. There is a refusal to live in the real world by most CEOs.
When people who work hard are having to go to food banks to top up; when people can't afford to buy houses with both partners earning good wages; when children are living in B&Bs; when teachers who slog more than 60 hours a week get a pittance with no yearly rise; when nurses who work unsociable hours, care and save lives haven't had a rise within inflation for years and years........yet CEOs, sports stars etc are earning obscene salaries, it's unjust and obscene! No one is worth these salaries. Don't kid yourslef.
The market sucks. It's just used for the rich to get richer and ordinary folks to go to the wall. Where is this market anyway? It's controlled by the rich. So it is self-perpetuating.
CEOs get bonuses when they don't reach the targets that they are supposed to achieve to get the bonus. How can that be fair?
No one needs £500,000 a year to live on! But people need to be able to have roof over their heads and to feed themselves. Many of these CEOs pay their workers disgracefully and yet rake it in. No they aren't worth it - particularly the heads of banks that we, the British public bailed out. They are stealing from us.
Uni Vice -chancellors live a life of Reilly while students are landed with debts of tens of thousands of pounds and junior lecturers who work very hard get paid very little.
There is one word for it all.......GREED!
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wild haggis
Posts: 166 | From: Cardiff | Registered: Mar 2010
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