|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Why believe?
|
Aravis
Shipmate
# 13824
|
Posted
I'm unsure why there have been so many comparisons in this discussion between the teaching of maths and science to children and the teaching of concepts about God to children. Surely most churches, schools and parents would start with stories and progress along a route more closely aligned with the study of literature, history and/or philosophy?
Posts: 689 | From: S Wales | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
RdrEmCofE
Shipmate
# 17511
|
Posted
quote:
Lilbudha QEDoesn't make your point.
So your Mind is not Set on the concept that 'There is no God'?
All your arguments lead me to believe otherwise. In fact most other readers of this thread would probably agree that your Mindset on this matter is quite decidedly fixed. (Which is aptly demonstrated by your own words. Therefore QED
e.g. A person with an ecological Mindset would be inclined to always turn up at the supermarket with their own shopping bags and turn off their lights at home when a room is not in use etc.
A person with an atheist Mindset would not be at all concerned about upsetting or pleasing God by their conduct or demeanour.
--------------------
Love covers many sins. 1 Pet.4:8. God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not holding their sins against them; 2 Cor.5:19
Posts: 255 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jan 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RdrEmCofE:
So your Mind is not Set on the concept that 'There is no God'?
All your arguments lead me to believe otherwise. In fact most other readers of this thread would probably agree that your Mindset on this matter is quite decidedly fixed. (Which is aptly demonstrated by your own words.
What a load of crap. Kindly stop inferring that I agree with you.
quote:
Therefore QED
Stop using logic terms you plainly don't understand. There is nothing inevitable about your claim.
quote:
e.g. A person with an ecological Mindset would be inclined to always turn up at the supermarket with their own shopping bags and turn off their lights at home when a room is not in use etc.
OK, but even if this is true, you can only use QED when your argument is self-reinforcing and when there is an inevitability about the conclusion. If you are introducing the possibility that there are situations where the outcome doesn't happen, you can't claim a slam-dunk QED.
quote:
A person with an atheist Mindset would not be at all concerned about upsetting or pleasing God by their conduct or demeanour.
This is confused. They don't accept there is a deity to be upset. If they thought there was, they'd be a form of deist.
Give it up, you are talking shite.
[ 22. January 2018, 08:33: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
Mindset?
Hmmmm - I wonder what my mindset is. Honest question, I’ve no idea.
I don’t want to believe in God or please her. But I find I can’t not believe in him. I want to do ‘good’ to the best of my ability, but that’s not about pleasing God, it’s about doing the right thing.
What’s the point in pleasing God?
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Aravis:
I'm unsure why there have been so many comparisons in this discussion between the teaching of maths and science to children and the teaching of concepts about God to children. Surely most churches, schools and parents would start with stories and progress along a route more closely aligned with the study of literature, history and/or philosophy?
The 'god is true' idea should of course be introduced later, but I think that there is, unfortunately, an underlying strong assumption, a decidedly taken-for-granted assumption, that the God referred to is a truth. Have you, I wonder, heard any Bishop, or archbishop, or any Christian on the TFTD slot on the 'Today' programme (BBC RAdio 4), clearly state that many people think this god is a belief, unsupported, as other subjects are, by independent observations? Probably not!!
--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Mindset?
Hmmmm - I wonder what my mindset is. Honest question, I’ve no idea.
I don’t want to believe in God or please her. But I find I can’t not believe in him. I want to do ‘good’ to the best of my ability, but that’s not about pleasing God, it’s about doing the right thing.
What’s the point in pleasing God?
I think the word 'mindset' should ring alarm bells because a mind set is a closed one. It's a bit like the phrase 'world view'I think.
When I was a child, being told that God was everywhere and knew what was going on, and asked questions such as, 'Wel, does god watch me when I'm on the toilet?' The question was easily waved away because such things were simply not considered! As I grew older, awkward questions were responded to with, 'God moves in mysterious ways' and no further discussion was permitted.
Actually, the older I get the more shocked I am that I took so long to realise that my belief in God had simply disappeared.
--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
The word 'mindset' is an absurdity. If you look round the internet, there are tons of ridiculous websites listing the attributes of the atheist mindset - the favourite being that they are narcissistic.
What a pile of poop. Usually there is no empirical observation at all, simply prejudice. I know atheists who are not materialists, who are not determinists, and so on.
Lazy thinking.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
Has anyone ever published a book of Jewish Bible (=Old Testament) myths for children, not as our beliefs but as the tales people told to make sense of life and their situation?
My now 11-yeaar-old grandson is an omnivorous reader and I've given him many books, including myths, but the book of bible stories that I have can go to the book fair.
He asked me once 'Is God real?' (or did he say 'true'?) And I said some people are quite certain God is real and some are quite sure God is not real, and you will make up your mind some day.
Could I check with you? Are you asking whether anyone has ever written a book that tells Jewish legends? Or are you asking whether anyone has written a book that retells parts of the Old Testament in a different way?
On the former M. R. James, he of the ghost stories, did. Here is a link to the text on Gutenberg but I don't know if it's in print anywhere now. Or you could try Isaac Bashevis Singer.
On the latter, I'm inclined to say 'go to the source'. Personally, there are very contexts where I wouldn't regard that as generally a good motto to follow, as a preference for something, anything, that is derivative or a re-telling.
Your grandson sounds fairly bright. If he reads eagerly as you describe, then pick a translation that is reasonably fluent and easy to read, and give him that. You might even be able to find one with pictures. If that seems a bit heavy, what with all the other bits that are harder to follow, Leviticus, Deuteronomy etc, you could mark in pencil the bits you think he might most enjoy.
And if he decides to look at some of the bits you haven't marked, well and good. Let him. It won't do him any harm.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Unum Solum:
I can love my neighbour as myself, but accept I don’t do it very well.
None of us do it well. I think it's possible to mount a credible argument that it is impossible for any human to do it. The human love that comes closest to perfection in my life is that between myself and my children - but I know it isn't without limit. Would I die for my children? I hope I never have to find out.
So...
If there's no God, why have we humans created for ourselves an (almost) impossible ideal? We fail, and we fall back on our human ideas of justice. These allow us to organise society, but they don't make it beautiful.
Or...
If there is a God, He wouldn't have asked us to do the impossible - He made us and knows what we are and aren't capable of. He is the loving parent we read about in the Gospels, who invites us to live through His power, to love others through His power - because our own powers are pretty feeble. If this scenario is true, there is the potential for a really beautiful way of living - the Kingdom.
Perhaps then, for me, it is simply a question of asking which story I prefer, and choosing the second one.
But I also see, in my own inability to let go of belief, despite my best efforts, the hand of a loving Father, always stretched out to me.
--------------------
And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
But then perfect parental love would be damaging for children. They would never experience frustration or absence, which would be an absurd human situation, and would equip them poorly for adulthood.
There's an old phrase in therapy about the 'good enough' mother, but we also used to talk about the 'bad enough' mother, who gave sufficient disappointment to her kids.
You can probably extrapolate this to marriage and other adult relationships - do you really want a perfect spouse? How utterly infuriating!
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
Has anyone ever published a book of Jewish Bible (=Old Testament) myths for children, not as our beliefs but as the tales people told to make sense of life and their situation?
My now 11-yeaar-old grandson is an omnivorous reader and I've given him many books, including myths, but the book of bible stories that I have can go to the book fair.
He asked me once 'Is God real?' (or did he say 'true'?) And I said some people are quite certain God is real and some are quite sure God is not real, and you will make up your mind some day.
GG
The 'Godly Play' storytelling is good for helping children and young people to explore spirituality through both Old and New Testament stories. Some schools are enlightened enough to welcome it.
--------------------
Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RdrEmCofE:
quote:
Lilbudha QEDoesn't make your point.
So your Mind is not Set on the concept that 'There is no God'?
First, the set in mindset* refers to a group not a fixative.
Second, this isn't about my mindset, of which you know little, but about the definition of atheist.
Ignorance aside, you projected a definition of atheist that is inaccurate to that group.
quote:
All your arguments lead me to believe otherwise.
On this thread? I've not made too many on it.
There is no rule about the quality of debate on this site, but for someone who claimed to enjoy that quality here, your posts have not evinced much of it. But then, I enjoy watching sport that I am rubbish at, so...
*mindset
ˈmīn(d)set/
noun
noun: mindset; plural noun: mindsets; noun: mind-set; plural noun: mind-sets
the established set of attitudes held by someone.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
The 'Godly Play' storytelling is good for helping children and young people to explore spirituality through both Old and New Testament stories. Some schools are enlightened enough to welcome it.
I would be interested to know if spirituality is locked into/linked with God belief in the books you mention?
--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Aravis:
I'm unsure why there have been so many comparisons in this discussion between the teaching of maths and science to children and the teaching of concepts about God to children. Surely most churches, schools and parents would start with stories and progress along a route more closely aligned with the study of literature, history and/or philosophy?
I thought that comparison was intended to point out that while one can legitimately teach science as factually based, one cannot teach religion in the same way. I thought that in fact, it was illegal in England to do this, but maybe with the increase in faith schools, this isn't correct. I suppose it's about teaching about, as opposed to teaching 'it's true'.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
RdrEmCofE
Shipmate
# 17511
|
Posted
quote:
my original statement: - A person with an atheist Mindset would not be at all concerned about upsetting or pleasing God by their conduct or demeanour.
Compare this to perhaps a religious persons 'mindset'.
mr cheesy's foul mouthed reply. quote:
(You are talking shite)
This is confused. They don't accept there is a deity to be upset. If they thought there was, they'd be a form of deist.
It is you who seem to be confused. Why, (in God's name), would an atheist who postulates the non existence of any gods at all, be either concerned about upsetting or attempting in any way to please, a god that they are convinced does not even exist?
That was exactly my point. Only some kind of Deist would even consider doing so. The reasson I stated this was to illustrate the fact that an atheist mindset leads to a certain way of viewing reality, which is different than someone with a religious mindset.
A mindset can be specific to a particular isolated belief in anything unprovable. It is just the same with atheists it is with religious people.
Most Christians with anything like a passing acquaintance with true religion would not actively seek to placate God or to impress Him. They would leave their salvation entirely in God's hands, trust themselves to His providence and their own common sense and get on with loving their neighbour as themselves.
You either could not read or more likely understand what had been written. Read it again. You will notice that I never even implied that a person with an atheistic world view would ever concern themselves about God's opinion on anything.
Do you understand what I wrote yet? Keep trying. When you finally get there you might, if you have any manners, consider offering an apology.
--------------------
Love covers many sins. 1 Pet.4:8. God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not holding their sins against them; 2 Cor.5:19
Posts: 255 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jan 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
RdrEmCofE
Shipmate
# 17511
|
Posted
quote:
quetzalcoatle wrote: - I thought that comparison was intended to point out that while one can legitimately teach science as factually based, one cannot teach religion in the same way. I thought that in fact, it was illegal in England to do this, but maybe with the increase in faith schools, this isn't correct. I suppose it's about teaching about, as opposed to teaching 'it's true'.
Religion is of course not, like science, based upon fact and observation. Mathematics and science are supposed to be fact and logic based. Religion is more like other humanities, like history, geography, economics, sociology etc, where so termed 'facts' are debatable and can be questioned. History is quite often not factually based, quite often biased, sometimes downright lies, depending on where and by whom the curriculum was compiled, and to what purpose.
You are right to observe 'Religion' is about 'teaching about', rather than indoctrination. Just as history should be as factually accurate as is possible and unbiased in its inculcation.
--------------------
Love covers many sins. 1 Pet.4:8. God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not holding their sins against them; 2 Cor.5:19
Posts: 255 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jan 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RdrEmCofE:
Do you understand what I wrote yet? Keep trying. When you finally get there you might, if you have any manners, consider offering an apology.
Cute. This post is what my post was in response of. Where you place a set of beliefs onto atheism. Here is the particular quote from that post.
quote:
Atheist Mindset - Definition: A person's usual attitude, mental state or system of reasoning is his or her mindset. An atheist mindset believes the passage of time and event is entirely governed by 'cause and effect', attributing no cause of any effect, to a supernatural being of any sort.
And this is incorrect. Atheism does not require substituting any set of beliefs for the ones they reject.
And please, cease with the playpen attempts at manipulation.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
RdrEmCofE
Shipmate
# 17511
|
Posted
quote:
quetzacotle The word 'mindset' is an absurdity. If you look round the internet, there are tons of ridiculous websites listing the attributes of the atheist mindset - the favourite being that they are narcissistic.
I warned everyone not to do that, didn't I?
Even gave reason why not to Google it. You get religious fanatical tripe!
[ 22. January 2018, 16:37: Message edited by: RdrEmCofE ]
--------------------
Love covers many sins. 1 Pet.4:8. God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not holding their sins against them; 2 Cor.5:19
Posts: 255 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jan 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RdrEmCofE:
Most Christians with anything like a passing acquaintance with true religion would not actively seek to placate God or to impress Him. They would leave their salvation entirely in God's hands, trust themselves to His providence and their own common sense and get on with loving their neighbour as themselves.
Ah, yes; the Christian variant of a famous logical fallacy.
quote:
Do you understand what I wrote yet?
Were I in an uncharitable mood, I would question if you understand what you wrote.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
Interesting point about atheists and the supernatural. Most of my family were atheists, but some of them regularly consulted mediums, for a good 'skry'. I suppose you could argue that this is not supernatural, well, it's not anything.
But there is a similar argument about animists, some of whom accept a kind of spiritual universe, but don't have a belief in God. So are they atheists? It depends what you mean!
Just remembered that my local shaman believes that animals and plants have a spiritual essence, but calls herself an atheist.
[ 22. January 2018, 16:51: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
Also Jains?
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Interesting point about atheists and the supernatural. Most of my family were atheists, but some of them regularly consulted mediums, for a good 'skry'. I suppose you could argue that this is not supernatural, well, it's not anything.
I've met people who've argued that belief in gods was irrational and yet believed in astrology. Go figure.
Atheism, in general, mixes fine with other forms of spirituality.
Granted, some atheists don't think so, but there is nothing in the basic parameters of the word that preclude it.
quote:
Just remembered that my local shaman believes that animals and plants have a spiritual essence, but calls herself an atheist.
This is not inherently a contradiction. Though I can understand why some theists and atheists might think so.
[ 22. January 2018, 17:05: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RdrEmCofE:
Religion is of course not, like science, based upon fact and observation. Mathematics and science are supposed to be fact and logic based. Religion is more like other humanities, like history, geography, economics, sociology etc, where so termed 'facts' are debatable and can be questioned. History is quite often not factually based, quite often biased, sometimes downright lies, depending on where and by whom the curriculum was compiled, and to what purpose.
Religion should always be taught ABOUT, not taught as fact. It can be linked with history because the religious beliefs that people have held have been an integral part of their lives and the historical decisions that were made. However, it is not like history, or geography or anything else because the GGod/god/s beliefs behind the religious beliefs are the ony ones that cannot be checked, i.e. there is no fact anywhere about any God/god/s that can be checked. If facts about other subjects are checked and found to be right, wrong or unknown, the proponents of those subjects will not go to war over it. Or, if they do, they will be able to say why, however stupid the stated cause. No-one worships other subjects; no-one thinks of them as having separate, independent existences, ; they are not considered to have relationships with people; they are not prayed to; they do not try to consider a person’s after-death fate.
quote:
You are right to observe 'Religion' is about 'teaching about', rather than indoctrination. Just as history should be as factually accurate as is possible and unbiased in its inculcation.
And here again you put two ideas together – I think the verb ‘elide’ would fit well here - which are not analagous.
--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
Yes indeed - the teaching of religion(s) should always be about.
The older I get, the more uncertain I become as to the 'certainties' peddled by religious groups, Christians included.
Faced with a potentially fatal surgical procedure back in 2016, I philosophically took the view that, if there was anything to deal with after death, I would deal with it as and when.
The possibility that one might die in a few days' time concentrates the mind most wonderfully....
If, OTOH, there was nothing after death to deal with, why, then, I wouldn't have any worries, would I?
I do still class myself as a 'Christian', however, simply on account of what Jesus said and did, and his word is good enough for me.
IJ
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
