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Source: (consider it) Thread: HughWillRidmee (of Cancer)
Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397

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Firstly, this is not meant to be a shit on HughWillRidmee thread.
I hope to clear some air created on the cancer sucks thread that started with this part of a post.
quote:
Yes cancer SUCKS, but it isn't capable of wickedness - that requires sentience. Allowing evil to happen to others when one can prevent it - that's wicked. I cannot work out why intelligent people persist in pretending that being a god magically absolves an (almost certainly) imaginary being from being the repugnant, repulsive puppet-master that is exposed by its behaviour.
The reason I have opened a thread rather than pm, is that several people are responding on the cancer thread. There are two threads in Hell that for me are prayer threads*. One is the cancer thread and the other the black dog. I believe we are allowed to yell at God and that that can be prayer. The God I want relationship with says 'Cancer is shit' right alongside me and understands when I say 'WTF God?'.

I hate seeing those threads derailed.

And this is the problem I have HughWillRidmee's post. The first part is a cancer rant. But then we get...
quote:

Yes cancer SUCKS, but it isn't capable of wickedness - that requires sentience. Allowing evil to happen to others when one can prevent it - that's wicked.

The problem of theodicy. God is omnipotent. God is good. And yet bad things happen. A fantastic rant. I'm ok with that on the cancer thread.

WTF God?

And then this sentence
quote:
I cannot work out why intelligent people persist in pretending that being a god magically absolves an (almost certainly) imaginary being from being the repugnant, repulsive puppet-master that is exposed by its behaviour.
The word 'pretending' to me suggests that people are knowingly and deliberately making shit up. It can be for good. When I played with my kids and jumped from couch to table to avoid the lava on the floor, we were making shit up. And it was fun. (And my wife didn't necessarily agree....but that's her Hell thread). But spirituality is core to our being. Don't tell me I'm making shit up, when it comes to my understanding of the world.
Secondly, theodicy is a major theological thorn in the side of Christianity. It has been for longer than you or I? God is not absolved. To me your post comes across as trite and smug when I read it.

And it does not describe my God. My God cries with the lady in the coffee-shop. My God cries with the tears I see daily.

I do not see this bastard caricature that you describe. And to suggest I am pretending this bastard caricature exists rankles. And to drop this shit into my prayer thread really pisses me off.

I responded you somewhat opaquely..
quote:
I get Fuck cancer.
I get Fuck God for cancer.
I get (sort of) Fuck theodicy.
I do not get Fuck people's spirituality. It is part of their being, their intactness. I see a lot of death from cancer. I wouldn't underestimate the value of spirituality*.

*Spirituality may or may not correspond with religion.

And I am over cancer. Too many, too young, too incessant.

As did others more eloquently and clearly.

HughWillRidmee, your questions and complaints are valid. Just not on the cancer thread. And I am creating this thread so we do not need to derail that one anymore. FWIW, My prayers are with you also, you 6'1'' 180 pound agnostic, frustrated stage 4, cancer fighter. And I support you in WTF? To whoever/whatever you wish?

Lets talk.

*Yes this is Hell. No this is not a support place. Yada yada yada.
Only that is bullshit.
And I will pray both with and alongside those screaming fuck you.

--------------------
Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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Ah, ol' one-note Hugh. Every thread becomes a plebescite (of one) on whether or not theism makes sense.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Anselmina nailed it:

quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
I'm seriously interested in why intelligent people believe things that, to me, are irrational - after all it could be me that's wrong.

Getting the feeling that your belief in the statement 'it could be me that's wrong' is not entirely sincere.

And why interested only in what 'intelligent' people believe? By whose classification is 'intelligent' being defined? And are the 'unintelligent' (eg, those of a lower IQ) of less worth in terms of their value judgements and articles of faith/non-faith?

Don't get me wrong. I share some of your questioning. Many people of faith express exactly the same doubts and conflicts. Many people lose their faith because of experiences with illness. In fact, I'd go so far to say that 'intelligent' people of faith ought to be severely tested in their belief in a good God by such things, if they have any depth to their faith at all.

But I do smell the farty hint of an 'if you're supposed to be so smart how come you're stupid enough to believe in obvious crap' seeping out of some of the corners of your post. Having serious and conscientious efforts at holding one's life together in the face of the death of loved ones labelled as 'usually pretending' and then qualifying this with the further comment that believers are even too stupid to know they're pretending to themselves is just all kinds of wrong.

I am reminded of a time when I posted the very sad, very beautiful song " Georgia
Lee" by Tom Waits on Facebook. ("Why wasn't God watching...for Georgia Lee?") One of my ( former) friends had just declared himself an atheist after a lifetime of bring a rather aggressive evangelical, and his conversion didn't do much to dampen his proselytizing, it just redirected it.


He got onto the YouTube comments of the video and basically sneered, what a stupid question, God isn't listening because God isn't there, what deluded schills you all are, yayaya. Various people, theist, atheist, and other, told him to shut up and let them enjoy the song.

There's a reason he's a former friend. And it's not because he's an atheist.

[ 30. June 2016, 04:15: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
There are two threads in Hell that for me are prayer threads*. One is the cancer thread and the other the black dog. I believe we are allowed to yell at God and that that can be prayer. The God I want relationship with says 'Cancer is shit' right alongside me and understands when I say 'WTF God?'.

I hate seeing those threads derailed.

I think if you want undiluted support, you should stick with All Saints. You post in Hell, you paint a target on your back.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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True, but one can loudly object to having a perfectly decent thread carjacked by somebody's obsession.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I think if you want undiluted support, you should stick with All Saints. You post in Hell, you paint a target on your back.

Once again, just because you can be a dick, doesn't mean you should be a dick. Or that you should not be yelled at for being a dick.
And HughWillRidmee was being a dick. Though very probably unintentionally so.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
There are two threads in Hell that for me are prayer threads*. One is the cancer thread and the other the black dog. I believe we are allowed to yell at God and that that can be prayer. The God I want relationship with says 'Cancer is shit' right alongside me and understands when I say 'WTF God?'.

I hate seeing those threads derailed.

I think if you want undiluted support, you should stick with All Saints. You post in Hell, you paint a target on your back.
Of course. And HughWillRidmee painted a target on his back when he posted. And I'm painting a target on my back by jumping into the fray. Ho-hum. That thar's Hell fer ya.

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397

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I take your point RuthW.

Those who need to rail against the world should not and cannot expect support from these threads in Hell. And it is unfair to build the expectation that this is a safe space.

Irrespective, I read and offer a silent prayer.

BTW, HughWillRidmee has not read his PM's since I posted this thread, so this may sink into the depths unrecognised.

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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
BTW, HughWillRidmee has not read his PM's since I posted this thread, so this may sink into the depths unrecognised.

Of course not. He's not a regular here; he only visits to attack people when he's tied one on. I suppose it's good for his liver that we see him so seldom.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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HughWillRidmee
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# 15614

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quote:
Originally posted by Patdys: The word 'pretending' to me suggests that people are knowingly and deliberately making shit up. That’s probably because you think we have “free will”. The experimental evidence says that we make inevitable decisions in our subconscious and then tell our conscious mind what is already decided.

Don't tell me I'm making shit up, when it comes to my understanding of the world. Why not – it’s true. We (you, me, everyone) do “make shit up” – it’s a coping mechanism. Our understanding of the world is made up – some of it is made up accurately and some of it isn’t. If it wasn’t made up we’d all have the same understanding. I doubt, for most of us, that much of it is known to be imaginary when we first think it, sometimes subsequent events may force us to realise we got things wrong. We look for patterns and try to adapt our understanding of situations to something we are already familiar with – just an extension of the system that enables us to see a famous face in a piece of toast. We tell ourselves stories by inventing links to fill in the gaps of our recollection and call it memory (not just call it memory, we believe with utter conviction that we have a complete blow-by-blow account) – we pretend we remember things we don’t, but it isn’t (usually) deliberate (as in a conscious fabrication) – it’s how the brain works given its limited resources and processing power.

Had I meant what you inferred I’d probably have said that they lied.

To me your post comes across as trite and smug when I read it. Fair enough. I thought it passionate and restrained. [Devil]

And it does not describe my God. My God cries with the lady in the coffee-shop. My God cries with the tears I see daily. so would the one I grew up with – but he allowed/permitted/enabled and knew in advance that he would cry and do nothing. He probably cried for every child that starved to death in Biafra and Ethiopia, but he didn’t provide food (or limit fertility). You know it and I know it – we draw differing conclusions. I don’t think your God is bad, or mad - I conclude that he doesn’t exist because the alternative is unthinkable. To me it is the only rational explanation. To a convinced believer the non-existence of god(s) is not an option: I don’t understand how it is possible to maintain that faith – presumably because I couldn’t.

FWIW, My prayers are with you also, you 6'1'' 180 pound agnostic, frustrated stage 4, cancer fighter. And I support you in WTF? To whoever/whatever you wish?

Lets talk.
Thank you for your reaction. As to your prayers, I appreciate the concern that drives them. I’ve a few years yet and medical research is ongoing, so my demise is probably not imminent. That said, knowing that I’ve probably fewer years than I’d expected based on my parents’ longevity focuses the mind.

Coming from my background I know that I have, in some ways, underachieved. My expectations as a child were limited and my growth as a human being shackled by the baleful presence of an unseen overseer. I also see family, friends and neighbours whose talents and abilities have been, as I see it, stifled by a focus on their (totally unevidenced) soul’s reward at the expense of the lives of those around them, even their own family members. I try to ensure that as few as possible present and future children have their talents controlled, manipulated or negated by adherence to irrational beliefs and dogma.

You’re right I am a fighter, but my opponent is not cancer; as far that’s concerned I do what those who should know better than I advise, so far it’s worked OK: my fight is with anything/anyone that burdens those who are unable to resist their oppressors. That seems terribly noble doesn’t it? – it isn’t – it’s a part of me I can’t control. I recently remonstrated with a large and loud lady who shoved others out of her way on an Italian railway station; I listen to people who are usually ignored. I’ve morphed from active trade unionist (in the 1970s) to being a low level awkward sod when frustrating bullies or irritating management by attempting to avoid unnecessary confusion amongst the scared and the lost at my local hospital.

I’ve had a very fortunate life; I’m part of possibly the luckiest non-elite group ever seen – a group that has just consigned their grandchildren to a frighteningly uncertain future in pursuit of an impossible dream; largely because they weren’t able/educated to separate bulls**t from reason. I genuinely believe that all superstitious belief is, on balance, harmful to humanity and the world we live in – in extremis the sort of stupidity that converts the denial of human involvement in global warming to a conviction that it will hasten the second coming because a particular version of god(s) won’t be done out of an orgy of destruction which it has been anticipating for a few thousand years. So fuck the future and those who will have to inhabit it – we’re not giving up our hard-won victimhood for anyone.

I will pray both with and alongside those screaming fuck you. my mother would have suggested that you should also be praying for them – she had god-given ideas about people who used bad language!

When I first became an occasional visitor I got quite fond of Mousethief’s style of posting. Although I subsequently found out that I was somewhat off-target I imagined M sitting in a dilapidated rocking-chair, carefully situated as far away from the rest of the verandah’s users as was possible, muttering comparisons between her childhood and the behaviour of today’s over-indulged great-grandkids whilst the needles constantly clacked, working on the triangular scarf that would be unravelled tonight in order to provide her with a reason for waking up tomorrow, I know I’m mistaken, but somehow the image persists.
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
BTW, HughWillRidmee has not read his PM's since I posted this thread, so this may sink into the depths unrecognised.
I’m a little surprised you didn’t follow up on this, maybe you haven’t read my reply?



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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
That’s probably because you think we have “free will”. The experimental evidence says that we make inevitable decisions in our subconscious and then tell our conscious mind what is already decided.

OK, now I remember you.
Some interpretations of the results of some experiments suggest that. You choose to believe Libet, even though his methodology and premise are flawed.
If you are going to natter on to religious believers on how wrong they are, at least try to not fuck up expressing your own beliefs.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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Hugh--

quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
Although I subsequently found out that I was somewhat off-target I imagined M sitting in a dilapidated rocking-chair, carefully situated as far away from the rest of the verandah’s users as was possible, muttering comparisons between her childhood and the behaviour of today’s over-indulged great-grandkids whilst the needles constantly clacked, working on the triangular scarf that would be unravelled tonight in order to provide her with a reason for waking up tomorrow, I know I’m mistaken, but somehow the image persists.

If you ever saw the Maureen O'Hara movie "Sally & St. Anne", that might be why the image persists. Sally's grandpa is (unnecessarily) bedridden, and knits all the time. Says he'll die when he finishes what he's knitting. So Sally unravels it, whenever he isn't looking. [Smile]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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She's a he.

PS could you please please please learn how to use UBB? It can't be too hard; Christians can do it.

[ 07. July 2016, 03:09: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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mt--

LOL re UBB and Christians! But we've got an edge: if we can cope with the Bible Code in our King James Version Bibles, then UBB is a snap!
[Biased]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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GK [Big Grin]

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Evensong
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# 14696

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The issue of theodicy is indeed a big problem for Christianity and a very understandable reason for leaving the faith: particularly if (as Hugh said above) it was a real burden.

Scientifically, theologically and philosophically it does not mean God does not exist. (I've found anti-theodicy also quite helpful in this area).

It does mean however that some might decide God is not a loving God as Christianity proclaims. And hey, fair enough. Life can be shit. It is an affective and emotional conclusion but not one without merit. Perhaps it's easier to deal with suffering if there is no meaning or ultimate hope to it.

But it's certainly easier to rail against the perceived fabrications of others (to create meaning) than at nothing at all.

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a theological scrapbook

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
But it's certainly easier to rail against the perceived fabrications of others (to create meaning) than at nothing at all.

By the "perceived fabrications of others" do you mean "straw men"?

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397

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Originally posted by Patdys:
quote:
The word 'pretending' to me suggests that people are knowingly and deliberately making shit up
You answered:
quote:
That’s probably because you think we have “free will”. The experimental evidence says that we make inevitable decisions in our subconscious and then tell our conscious mind what is already decided.

How about you reconcile that piece of sophistry with your actual statement
quote:
I cannot work out why intelligent people persist in pretending
And who cares about this sophistry. I was responding to the emotional derisive element of your post and you answer with weasel words? That’s bollocks.

I said
quote:
And it does not describe my God. My God cries with the lady in the coffee-shop. My God cries with the tears I see daily.
You replied
quote:
so would the one I grew up with – but he allowed/permitted/enabled and knew in advance that he would cry and do nothing. He probably cried for every child that starved to death in Biafra and Ethiopia, but he didn’t provide food (or limit fertility). You know it and I know it – we draw differing conclusions. I don’t think your God is bad, or mad - I conclude that he doesn’t exist because the alternative is unthinkable. To me it is the only rational explanation. To a convinced believer the non-existence of god(s) is not an option: I don’t understand how it is possible to maintain that faith – presumably because I couldn’t.

I think there is a lot you and I cannot imagine. I do believe rational explanations are not the only answer for spiritual questions. And for me, my reconciliation of theodicy is a purgatory discussion involving string theory, parousia and proleptic tension. This does not negate your experience. Nor does it give you leave to say it is the only experience and all others are rubbish or pretence.

Thank you for sharing some of your experience and life. I respect your integrity and openness in this.

I said
quote:
I will pray both with and alongside those screaming fuck you.

You replied
quote:
my mother would have suggested that you should also be praying for them – she had god-given ideas about people who used bad language!

I would agree that some language may be seen as uncouth. So be it. And again, this is a place for ranting and railing. And sometimes saying words others find offensive.

HughWillRidmee, thank you for replying. It took me a long time to learn that different boards have different purposes. (el Gordo, finally taught me that.) Your points are not unreasonable but I think on the cancer Hell thread, in the wrong place. Regards and my best wishes for your health,

Patdys

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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.

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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
But it's certainly easier to rail against the perceived fabrications of others (to create meaning) than at nothing at all.

By the "perceived fabrications of others" do you mean "straw men"?
My understanding of this is..

It is easier to rail against the others who proclaim a God you do not believe in, and their created God, than to rail against nihilism.
But it is Evensong after all and I may have misunderstood her. It has been known to happen.

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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.

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Evensong
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# 14696

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Oi! I'm the Epitome of Clarity! [Big Grin]

And yes. wot Patyds said mousey

p.s. You're terrible at this hell business Patyds. Far too civilised and Christian. [Big Grin]

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a theological scrapbook

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Oi! I'm the Epitome of Clarity! [Big Grin]

Then Clarity is vastly overrated. [Snigger]

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397

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I would expect the epitome of clarity to get my name right...

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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.

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SusanDoris

Incurable Optimist
# 12618

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Late to this very interesting thread - I tend to forget to look at Hell and. in any case I'm catching up after being away.

I'm very much with HughWillRidMee's views on atheism and reasons for it; also, of course, I wish him well with his treatment, which scientists continue to improve.

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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894

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Next at 11: Onenote Sally trots out her hobbyhorse.

In other news, you won't believe what this bear was seen doing in the woods!

[ 11. July 2016, 13:52: Message edited by: Ariston ]

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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.

Posts: 6824 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Patdys
Iron Wannabe
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Saying Grace?

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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.

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