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» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Hell   » At last, evangelicals weigh in on sexual predators (Page 2)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: At last, evangelicals weigh in on sexual predators
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
My thought was that well-behaved men rarely made history either.

This seems awfully close to #alllivesmatter
[Roll Eyes] I'd have hardly made my previous post if I'd meant that.

The simple fact is that most of us won't make history. History-making is not synonmyous with good behaviour, either. I'm sure if you really try hard you'll be able to think of some examples.

What's wrong with the blogpost is the implication that it's only OK for men to make history.

And in case my credentials are still in any doubt, I recently bought Mrs Eutychus a compilation of these stories which are about, hmm, women who made history.

[ 08. January 2018, 21:54: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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Meanwhile at least somebody does the right thing: the pastor who originally handled the mess has been suspended from his current position pending an investigation:
quote:
In light of the seriousness of these accusations against Larry Cotton, we feel that due diligence is appropriate to ensure Larry’s qualification for his current role of leadership. In order to remove our potential bias from the situation, we have placed Larry on a leave of absence while an investigation by a third-party organization is undertaken. We will provide a full report to the church after its completion.
Now that is an appropriate response to this mess.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Gospel Coalition site doubles down with a new article today: Well-behaved women rarely make history.

Seems to be a thinly disguised "STFU".

It's early morning where I am reading that link, so I didn't have any food in my system to throw up. Dry retching really hurts. [Projectile]

Patriarchy ensured that women rarely made history at all, having been written out regardless of their behavior. Hence the project of several of the feminist theologians to write women back in. Not that anyone would expect literalists like the author of that piece to have the nuance or humility to acknowledge that.

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Wronger than a drooling idiot on stupid juice - but I understand his argument.
mousethief (paraphrase)
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Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

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Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
# 2349

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Have you ever noticed how few women in the Hebrew Bible even have names? And if they do have names, they translate to something like "Honeybee" (Deborah), while the guys all get names like "Shield of God," "Warrior of God," "God's Cool Dude," and so on.
[Disappointed]

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I'm not dead yet.

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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Here is the relevant bit of Savage's current church's Sunday morning service from earlier this week. Savage has just reread his statement. I can't manage to listen very long to what follows. Not least the abuse of the term "sorry".

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

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The past is over. We only can control the present, and the future. I, in my own person, shall make history in my own minor way.
And more importantly, I raised my daughter to make history. Let these wretched sexists whine in their corners, hold their Old Testaments over their shrinking genitalia, and tremble at her footstep. History is not on their side. Tomorrow is hers.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I can't manage to listen very long to what follows. Not least the abuse of the term "sorry".

My sponsor told me that when I do a 9th step I am never, ever, to say "I'm sorry." I need to say "I did wrong."

Of course I am sorry for things I did. That doesn't change anything, least of all me.

Being sorry has too many connotations of "I sure which this shit would go away so I can go back to doing what I want to do."

Admitting I did wrong helps me to understand where I can change. Admitting that the things I perceived as wrongs against me resulted either from my own actions, or from my expectations, continues to be a necessary part of my life. It is what gives me the impetus to control myself and my expectations and make a better life for myself.

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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

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Brenda, is your daughter still bent on World Domination? If so, could she please start on America, first?

Please? Pretty please?

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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She is in law school right now, doubling this with being a major in the US Army Reserve, and plans to clerk for a US appellate judge after graduation. I can't quite see her running for public office (her campaign speech: If you don't vote for me you are stupid!) but sometimes I worry. At least her path to Total World Domination now no longer seems to involve the nuclear arsenal.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

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[Overused]

Good luck to her, whether she goes for TWD or not!

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

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Women Making History (or, at any rate Scottish Women Making History in the C19th) is my academic area.

It's not that women didn't have lives and achievements which merited making history, or that these achievements weren't obvious during their lifetimes. Three things which prevented them from "Making History" were:

1. Women, more than men, appear to have ascribed their achievements to non-ambitious motives ("I want to be admitted to University and become a doctor because I want to care for others." "The only reason I'm climbing the career ladder, earning a substantial salary and becoming a noted public speaker is because I can better serve God if I'm earning enough to set myself up in a nice house with servants.")

2.Notable men tended to have supportive wives and children who had a vested interest in memorialising / producing hagiographical accounts of their husband / father. Notable women tended to be unencumbered with husbands and children, and consequently had less chance of family promotion of their memory.

3. Male historians tended to overlook or make assumptions about women, which meant that although primary source material is plentiful, secondary source material is sadly lacking. This is changing, though.

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North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

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Also (I'm not sure how specific this is to the C19th) successful men seem to have created a narrative of their lives which showed them overcoming various obstacles. Successful women appear to have created a narrative focussing on some mark of early respectability, such as the piety of their mother. A working class woman who was socially upwardly mobile through her own efforts rarely admitted to having pulled herself up by her bootstraps. Whereas by contrast, men seem to have exaggerated childhood poverty etc to magnify their own success.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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There are more reasons women don’t make history the same as men. The woman that was Robert Capa

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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A Slate article on Andy Savage and sexual abuse in churches.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
A Slate article on Andy Savage and sexual abuse in churches.

What really revolted me about Savage's statements was that he didn't realize the victim would still be very upset years later. [Projectile]

Moo

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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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He fills me with contempt, and his congregation is a collection of creeps.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

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It's a striking lesson in the cult of personality. So beloved that the necessary action of stepping down, which I believe he has now taken (if temporarily), is not called for.

May we all not be so blind to see the failings in those we love or admire in ministry.

[ 13. January 2018, 22:10: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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Here's an article summarizing the stepping down. It's from the Post, the only place I found one.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473

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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
What really revolted me about Savage's statements was that he didn't realize the victim would still be very upset years later. [Projectile]

Moo

Yes it's revolting, but it doesn't surprise me in the least.

About a month after I was raped I said something to the then Bishop's wife about the rapist. She said, "So much for Christian forgiveness."

Huia - obviously a very bad Christian [Devil]

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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

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Nick Tamen

Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164

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quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
Have you ever noticed how few women in the Hebrew Bible even have names? And if they do have names, they translate to something like "Honeybee" (Deborah), while the guys all get names like "Shield of God," "Warrior of God," "God's Cool Dude," and so on.
[Disappointed]

True, but the Honeybee did have a pretty mean sting.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
# 2349

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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
True, but the Honeybee did have a pretty mean sting.

Then she should have been called "Wasp."

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I'm not dead yet.

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Nick Tamen

Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164

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quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
True, but the Honeybee did have a pretty mean sting.

Then she should have been called "Wasp."
Ha! Maybe so. But if "Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee" was good enough for Mohammed Ali . . . .

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

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This is a free click but quite long. The thesis: sexual consent is not of God. This is a heavy lift and it takes him 90 pages to explain why God rather prefers you to be raped.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This is a free click but quite long. The thesis: sexual consent is not of God. This is a heavy lift and it takes him 90 pages to explain why God rather prefers you to be raped.

Ew. I'll pass on that one thanks.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

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I wonder how he would feel if he were raped?

[Disappointed]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This is a free click but quite long. The thesis: sexual consent is not of God. This is a heavy lift and it takes him 90 pages to explain why God rather prefers you to be raped.

Ew. I'll pass on that one thanks.
This is the most horrible thing I've ever read, and I've read a lot of horrible things. [Projectile]

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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Is there a CliffsNote?

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Love wins

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
But from a Biblical perspective it is absolutely impossible for a man to rape his wife because a man can only rape a woman he is not married to.
gives you the flavour.

Poe's law definitely in action again.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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You gotta be some masochist or WORSE to read 1 page let alone 90 of that shit.

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Love wins

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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Yet 1000s of 'Christians' believe this shite, and give £££ and $$$ to the gobshites who promulgate it.

More fool them.

O to be a fire-resistant fly in Purgatory when these evil bigots get there....and receive a dose of their own medicine.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
You gotta be some masochist or WORSE to read 1 page let alone 90 of that shit.

I could not manage more than a couple of paragraphs before wanting to do very bad things to the shithead author.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Yet 1000s of 'Christians' believe this shite, and give £££ and $$$ to the gobshites who promulgate it.

More fool them.

O to be a fire-resistant fly in Purgatory when these evil bigots get there....and receive a dose of their own medicine.

IJ

Hell's too good for them that's for sure.

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Love wins

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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

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That's the truly frightening thing. There are, clearly, Christians who support this dolt. Furthermore, they are loudly touting themselves as real trulio Christians. Which, naturally, makes everyone else in the world nauseous.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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Including many other Christians (whom the dolt-followers might not count as Christians, though, IYSWIM).

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473

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Life's to short to read pig ignorant fuckwits who call themselves "christians" (should probably be Christ stains as their views are a stain on Christian love.)

People like him are why I refuse to use that term, although I do know a lot of intelligent, and loving Christian people for whom I give thanks every day.

Huia

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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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I'm going to have to take one for the team, aren't I?

You don't deserve me.

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Forward the New Republic

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Huia
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# 3473

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If you email me your address I'll send chocolate or other goodies. No one should have to read such crap without some treats to make it bearable.

Huia

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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

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alienfromzog

Ship's Alien
# 5327

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This is a free click but quite long. The thesis: sexual consent is not of God. This is a heavy lift and it takes him 90 pages to explain why God rather prefers you to be raped.

Fuck.
[Projectile]

Ok, firstly let's just set to rest the theology here in simple evangelical terms*:
Genesis 3:16
"Your desire shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you.”

Essentially that article is defending the curse of the fall. Now, these extreme literalists claim a form of marriage that predates the fall, that's how the theology works.

In Christ, we have overcome the curse of the fall; we are overcoming the curse of the fall; and we shall overcome the curse of the fall.

I apologise for the sermonising but I do think it important to demolish these things on their own terms.

However, the more important point here, is that it is in this horrific teaching that we see why sexual predatory behaviour has been tolerated (and even encouraged) in certain evangelical circles. Those that use Biblical texts to defend ownership of women by men show incredible ignorance of the very text they're quoting.

Moreover if this is what the American Evangelical church has become, then we should not be surprised to see them voting for Trump. It is the same pathology, the same evil. At the heart of Christianity is a rejection of the subjugation by the strong - in Jesus we see the greatest of power acting in self-sacrifice.

I would like to tell you that reading that article I was surprised. I wasn't, horrified but not remotely surprised.

AFZ

*I think I would still describe myself as an evangelical but more and more, I am uncomfortable with that label.

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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]

An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This is a free click but quite long. The thesis: sexual consent is not of God. This is a heavy lift and it takes him 90 pages to explain why God rather prefers you to be raped.

Won't read it. Also won't go into my immediate thought about punishing him for teaching such a horrible thing. (Not rape.)

Is the writer from one of the split-offs from the Mormons, where they marry a bunch of under-aged girls?

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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I thought this was a spoof, it's so wacky. Well, I can accept that it's not. Poe-ish.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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Huia. Christ stains [Overused]

Trouble is I'm pretty maculate myself.

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Love wins

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balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

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I got as far as the bit where he says that a man who felt like having sex with his wife and would not force himself on her if she was not in the mood had somehow departed from the ways of God.

I then knew it was not worth reading further.

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Fearfully and wonderfully mad
Love the dinner, hate the din.
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blog

Posts: 8955 | From: Somewhere else | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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I would like to know how he explains 1 Corinthians 7:3-5.
quote:

The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another except perhaps by agreement for a set time, to devote yourselves to prayer, and then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

Moo

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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.

Posts: 20343 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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He struggles with the middle bit but explains the end thus
quote:
Sexual Consent Ideology says “Both people must agree to sex — every single time — for it to be consensual.” But the Bible says both people within a covenant of marriage must agree to NOT have sex. Yes, sir and Yes mam you read that right. The only mutual agreement regarding sex the Bible speaks to is the cessation of sex for short periods of mutually agreed time and then the couple is admonished to come back together in sexual union again:
So now you know [Paranoid]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17624 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

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O, this obsession with Secks!

Has he got a rather small (and possibly dysfunctional) willy, I wonder?

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 9806 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

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Certainly he has an overweening desire to tell us all what to do in bed.
Imagine being married to this galoot. Unless, oh cheerful thought, no woman was dumb enough to marry him. Reading this would definitely make anyone flee at the altar.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 6079 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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I read it last night, after a few* beers.

tl;dr version:

In the course of some very detailed and er, idiosyncratic, hermeneutics, the writer, in an effort to prove his thesis, manages to argue for slaves, sexual slavery, and the ownership of both minor and adult women.

I mean, sure, if that's what you get from the Bible, then seeking like-minded people is probably your best bet - but don't come crying to me when you get mistaken for Goreans**.

Otherwise, all hail the prophet Atwood and her holy text, The Handmaid's Tale.


*maybe more than a few
** if you don't know what that is, for the love of God don't google it at work

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Forward the New Republic

Posts: 9016 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

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You have sacrificed for the common good, Doc.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 6079 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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Uh oh. I lived on Gor.

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Love wins

Posts: 17361 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

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This place, Martin?

If so, ISWYM.

[Paranoid]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 9806 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged



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