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» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » All Saints   » Did you ever see Billy Graham preach live? (Page 2)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Did you ever see Billy Graham preach live?
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
We are more aware of the term 'emotional blackmail' and how people can be manipulated by the sounds and surroundings of such gatherings.

While earlier generations may not have known the term "emotional blackmail," I seriously doubt they were more naïve than people today about the possibility of manipulation through the sights and sounds of mass gatherings.
I think they were, or at least I was. It wasn't until a learned minister (United Church of Canada, of the Presbyterian variety) sang a wee [un]hymn to a small group of us that I properly understood: Drop Kick Me Jesus (through the goalposts of life).

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Mark Wuntoo
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I well remember the extensive advertising / hype on London buses and the Underground and on hoardings: this was enough, I think, to get people motivated to 'go and see'. I am sure that many of those who went forward were not church-goers, although possibly not as many as were already committed.
Surely I am not the only one who remembers whole carriages on the Underground singing on their way home?
It was all such a remarkable phenomenon and, like Topsy, it grew from its own success.
As others have said, I don't think it it would happen today and in that sense it was a 'move' of its' time.

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Chorister

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No, but my parents did, and they spoke very highly of him.

I am concerned that he will be adulated now that he has died. Not sure that is terribly healthy. Am also pretty sure that he would not have wanted it, either.

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Moo

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I never heard him preach, but when I was a student at Duke University in the 1950s, he came and preached at the university chapel.

Apparently his preaching. was not at all what was expected. It had a solid intellectual basis, which was appropriate for that particular audience. People who came to sneer were impressed.

Moo

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Eutychus
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threadjack/
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Drop Kick Me Jesus (through the goalposts of life).

If you can't shout Saved! you'll have to face the penalty

/threadjack

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mousethief

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There is a meme going around FaceBook quoting him as saying all homosexuals should be castrated. Is this genuine?

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Mudfrog
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No it is not.

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Gamaliel
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They had shepherds with the requisite castrating tools on stand-by alongside the platform, Mousethief, so as to intercept any homosexual fellas who happened to respond to the appeal ...

I mean, c'mon ...

Graham did say some daft things, including some anti-Semitic remarks during the Nixon era, a President with whom he was infamously close.

But give him his due, he acknowledged his mistakes. It's a sorry state of affairs, though when his financial probity and lack of scandal are cited in news reports as worthy of note by contrast with other American evangelists, as though Graham was the exception in that regard rather than the norm.

Which I rather suspect he was ...

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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I'm not prepared to excuse the man after doing some research today. I reject the man and what he espoused, and am less inclined to excuse him than others with lesser following. This appears to be a nuanced review of the man,
this:
quote:
Graham had the opportunity to lead fundamentalists into a new era. He could have pushed them to take social reform seriously as a God-given mandate to save the world from environmental destruction. He could have tackled racism, America’s original sin, by championing the federal government’s aggressive civil rights policies.

But he squandered it.

He held that the world would not “be saved through legislation”. The federal government, he indicated, had no business passing laws to protect the earth for future generations.

Completely irresponsible. There's more within the article.

[ 22. February 2018, 23:39: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
He came here some 20 years ago. There was a big push to go, to volunteer etc. We took part in none of it. There was something profoundly negative for me about him. Something about accepting things and not being sceptical which put me completely off.

Seeing the poison that his son Franklin spews and strews, I've felt it was right to avoid him. I also see in my mind's eye the movie version of Elmer Gantry re Billy.

m

Fwiw, I think there's a world of difference between Billy and Franklin. Billy is an old school evangelical, with all the pros and cons that that implies, but he was a man of integrity. He made a lot of mistakes-- and acknowledged them. His best moment was probably in the 60s when he gave MLK a platform, and broke Jim Crow laws to desegregate his Southern crusades


Franklin.... not so much. A self-serving piece of work

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Gamaliel
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Yes, he desegregated his southern crusades but didn't 'follow through' any further, as The Guardian article relates.

It's as if he raised his hand or 'got out of his seat' on that issue, as he later did on environmental issues, only to fail to carry on with those particular 'conversions'.

Yes, Graham moved away from the narrow confines of southern evangelicalism but there was only so far he was prepared to go. All these things are relative, though and he moved further than many from that stable.

I think one of the issues here is that of cultural and crowd-expectations.

If a powerful guy with a mic invites you to 'get out of your seat' then you don't have to be Mr or Mrs Susceptible to go along with that.

One of my uncles attended the 1984 rallies with his brother, then a Methodist minister. He was impressed and found it less 'manipulative' and emotional than he anticipated. He didn't 'respond' though. And of those that did, there will have been a mixture of motives and levels of understanding.

A good friend was a counsellor at the Birmingham rallies in 1984 and said that he didn't 'deal' with anyone during the entire event who had the foggiest idea why they had 'gone forward' or what it was supposed to mean or achieve.

Most had done so simply because they had set other people doing it.

Now, in and amongst, of course, there will have been people for whom it was a life-changing step and the start - or continuation - of their journey to Christ.

I've met lots of clergy, church leaders of all stripes and people active in all manner of churches who were converted during the Graham Crusades of the '50s and '60s. I don't meet that many from the 1980s.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
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http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Schroedinger's cat

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# 64

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no prophet - he made mistakes. He got things wrong, but knowing the evangelical environment he was in (and to an extent leading), I am prepared to forgive him for getting it wrong.

As others have said, he often realised it, and came clean.

I think he was a man of integrity. Compared to many of his contemporaries, that is something important. I know that I have learnt from him the importance of being open, of changing your own mind, and of admitting that you had it wrong.

He wasn't interested in converts for the sake of it. He was genuinely interested in giving an opportunity for people to respond to Gods call (IMO).

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Baptist Trainfan
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I read somewhere that, when the Crusades had the choir sing "Just as I am" at the appeal, that was said to be manipulative. So he tried silence instead - and got criticised for that, too!

I heard him twice, once in '67 (though we actually got shunted to an overflow room with a big screen as Earl's Court was full) and again in about 1990, when I felt that the whole presentation had become a bit "tired". I also heard a sermon from 1984 which was broadcast live on the BBC World Service (from Sheffield, I think).

RE. integrity - didn't he set up an organisation for evangelists and mission organisations based on having open and transparent accounting? I believe he himself got paid a salary from the BGEA.

[ 23. February 2018, 07:10: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Penny S
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I went on a coach with the college CU, and a strict instruction that no-one was to go forward as we had to get back before signing-in time (it was a very old fashioned girls only college at the time).
I had no intention of doing any such thing. I had declared myself for Christ when I became a church member in the Congregational Church. (But hadn't been attending regularly at the college town branch.)
We were right at the front, and I was sitting on the low boundary wall. I wasn't much moved in my head by the preaching. The music was powerful, though. At the call to go forward, I felt a strong urge to do so. I would only have to stand and take a few steps. I resisted. I didn't like being got at like that. It's the nearest I've been to being hypnotised. And it wasn't the warning about the coach which held me back. It was my natural bolshieness kicking in.

[ 23. February 2018, 10:47: Message edited by: Penny S ]

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Billy's last years must surely have been saddened by the shite spouted by Franklin.... [Disappointed]

IJ

I don't think Franklin Graham has a Grady B Wilson at his side. Amongst other things Wilson was an advisor to Billy who would prevent him "Pissing in the soup" (however you say that in Baptist).

Anybody who wants to change the world or feels on a mission needs such an advisor.

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Gamaliel
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I think Penny S has highlighted something here.

However 'manipulative' or otherwise a big public event is, there's always an atmosphere and always some kind of tug on the emotions. We are people. That's how we are wired.

I once attended a performance of a Mystery Play in Lincoln Cathedral. At the climax of the performance huge white and red sheets were drawn out, one representing Heaven, the other Hell.

Actors dressed as imps and demons hauled the 'damned' off to the one, others dressed in white robes led others off to eternal bliss ...

They began to select people out of the audience and I'm pleased to say, one of the 'angels' came and led me into my heavenly rest ...

The wierd thing was that I 'felt' something very powerful - even though it was a play and I knew darn well that it was a performance, I had a kind of 'gut-frisson' and reaction ...

My wife, who is far quieter and more introverted than I am, didn't want to leave her seat and follow the angel, so she was 'left behind.'

I must admit, I had a knot in my stomach ... my poor wife! Was she not among the Elect?

[Biased] [Big Grin]

I only share this story to make the point that in any large gathering people are going to respond in all sorts of ways and for all sorts of reasons.

My friend who was a counsellor at one of the Birmingham crusades said that he spoke to people who were there 'because they wanted to stand on the sacred Villa turf' ... or who said they wanted to 'be close to him', meaning Billy Graham rather than Christ.

The vast majority had no clue whatsoever as to why they had 'gone forward' other than they had been asked to do so.

Anyone can 'get out of their seat' and 'go forward' at a meeting. Anyone can raise their hand or parrot or recite the 'sinner's prayer' ...

Some of them will be sincere and for them it will be a significant step forward in their journey towards and with Christ.

For others it won't mean very much at all.

None of that was Billy Graham's 'fault'. He was simply doing what he knew, presenting the Gospel and inviting people to respond.

But it does beg more than a few questions for me when it comes to public declarations of faith or mass evangelism of that kind.

None of that detracts from his integrity nor his achievement. To remain unsullied by the faintest whiff of scandal in the kind of religious environment he represented is no mean achievement in and of itself.

Yes, he said some daft things - and yes, he could have used his influence within the US evangelical constituency to press for further change ...

But what am I doing within my own context to promote the cause of Christ and improve the lot of my fellow human beings?

Within the parameters in which he operated, I'm sure Graham deserves a 'well done, good and faithful servant' and the tributes that have been paid.

I'm sure he wouldn't have wanted any more than that.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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L'organist
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# 17338

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Yes. As a parish we were offered free tickets to one of his meetings in, I think, London; my clergyman father offered them to members of the congregation without comment and a coachload of us went. As there were spare tickets we used these for houseguests, one of whom was my cousin.

When Mr Graham asked people to go up I was curious and went up with the cousin (also curious) in tow. We were given a pretty hard-sell about Bible reading and so forth. I said that I was already a member of the BRF but was told firmly that this was not the right thing, which I found odd.

I found the whole thing rather disquieting and didn't stay in touch with Mr Graham's ministries.

In later life I found his disparagement of Jews very disturbing, and his statements about AIDS being God's judgement disgraceful.

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Stetson
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For anyone keeping score, by my count 24 shipmates(myself included) have posted here to say that they saw Graham preach in person. That's not including people who didn't personally go but who had a close relative or friend attend, of which there have maybe been three.

I guess that's about what I would have expected.

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Signaller
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He preached at our place in 1976 (before my time). A plaque was placed on the (wooden, Edwardian) pulpit to record the event. During a re-ordering in the 90s said pulpit was declared surplus to requirements. Opposition to its loss coalesced around "You can't get rid of that, Billy Graham once preached from it!"

I think it may still be in a shed somewhere...

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Stetson
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# 9597

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quote:
Originally posted by Signaller:
He preached at our place in 1976 (before my time). A plaque was placed on the (wooden, Edwardian) pulpit to record the event. During a re-ordering in the 90s said pulpit was declared surplus to requirements. Opposition to its loss coalesced around "You can't get rid of that, Billy Graham once preached from it!"

That's funny, because more often than not, he also preached in big stadiums and the like. In my hometown, I think he preached at the Coliseum, one-time home-rink of Wayne Gretzky(arguably the greatest hockey player in history) and innumerable rock-music icons(let's just use Supertramp as as example). I doubt anyone would think Graham's presence at that particular venue constituted anything historic.

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Bob Two-Owls
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That, I think, is the very problem. Few people seem to have anything but praise for his message, commitment and probity but the manner of delivery is another matter. A pulpit is treated like a saint's relics because he was someone extraordinary in the Church as a whole. A stadium is not treated with the same reference because he was what you expect to find at a stadium, like a rock star or a sporting great. The adulation he received at the stadium was the kind of adulation that was given to The Beatles or Elton John not a deep appreciation of a profound and meaningful message. At least that was the impression I got, I have no criticism of the man himself, just the expectations and mythology that people had built around him.

I think if I had ever got the chance to sit and talk quietly with him I would have rather enjoyed it, as the people around him seem to have done.

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Doublethink.
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# 1984

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quote:
Originally posted by Bob Two-Owls:
Few people seem to have anything but praise for his message,

Gay people such as myself have things other than praise to say about his message.

(Though I accept that he was sincere, rather than a con artist trying to make as much money as possible.)

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Yes, he desegregated his southern crusades but didn't 'follow through' any further, as The Guardian article relates.

It's as if he raised his hand or 'got out of his seat' on that issue, as he later did on environmental issues, only to fail to carry on with those particular 'conversions'.

Yes, Graham moved away from the narrow confines of southern evangelicalism but there was only so far he was prepared to go. All these things are relative, though and he moved further than many from that stable.

I think one of the issues here is that of cultural and crowd-expectations.

If a powerful guy with a mic invites you to 'get out of your seat' then you don't have to be Mr or Mrs Susceptible to go along with that.

One of my uncles attended the 1984 rallies with his brother, then a Methodist minister. He was impressed and found it less 'manipulative' and emotional than he anticipated. He didn't 'respond' though. And of those that did, there will have been a mixture of motives and levels of understanding.

A good friend was a counsellor at the Birmingham rallies in 1984 and said that he didn't 'deal' with anyone during the entire event who had the foggiest idea why they had 'gone forward' or what it was supposed to mean or achieve.

Most had done so simply because they had set other people doing it.

Now, in and amongst, of course, there will have been people for whom it was a life-changing step and the start - or continuation - of their journey to Christ.

I've met lots of clergy, church leaders of all stripes and people active in all manner of churches who were converted during the Graham Crusades of the '50s and '60s. I don't meet that many from the 1980s.

Yes, as I said, his record is mixed and in many ways reflects both the best and the perils of old-school evangelicalism. My point was that it's unfair to equate Billy with Franklin. While Billy's record was mixed, Franklins is more uniformly bad-- if not evil. While Billy represents the best & worst of old school evangelicalism, Franklin is the poster boy for the rotting carcass of what American right wing fundamentalist evangelicalism has become

[ 23. February 2018, 21:30: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
quote:
Originally posted by Bob Two-Owls:
Few people seem to have anything but praise for his message,

Gay people such as myself have things other than praise to say about his message.

(Though I accept that he was sincere, rather than a con artist trying to make as much money as possible.)

Fwiw, his horrid statement on AIDs was one of many such missteps which he acknowledged and said (in the 1990s) he regretted. Not an excuse of course (as he would no doubt agree) but rather again to the difference between Billy and Franklin

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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I've complete support for that objection DT.

Is it generalizing to say that he vastly over-simplified Christianity into the "personal relationship with Jesus Christ" thing? (this seems to be one of his slogans). Isn't it nonsense to turn Christianity into such a simplistic thing, as if the individual is the only relevant focus? But perhaps he was merely spouting the excessive individualism that is part of his cultural background? was he never aware of the good and bad in societies, in cultures, in even his own religion? maybe he was blindsighting himself intentionally?

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Puzzler
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My parents went to Haringay, and I went to Eearls Court on the night that Cliff Richard sang and publicly declared himself to be a Christian. I did not go forward because I was already a committed Christian.

When I was a student I was a counsellor. Those whom I spoke to who had come forward were all genuinely interested. The follow up system was impressive, linking with local churches.

I knew several ministers who had been called to serve Christ thanks to Billy Graham’s ministry.
His preaching was sincere and convincing.
By the time of Mission England, I did feel that this type of evangelism was almost past its sell-by date.

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Golden Key
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I never saw him in person; but I watched his crusades on TV for years, especially when I was growing up. And since there's no other memorial thread for him, I'll squeeze in here.

--I grew up fundamentalist, so the main content of his speeches was certainly familiar. BG preached well. Not like the evangelists who seem to have mainlined espresso before preaching. (On my NPR station, there were clips of his early preaching, before his crusades. Much more like the stylized, rhythmic, punctuated method of some Southern preachers and evangelists. His wife Ruth nudged him to change. [Smile] Yay, Ruth!)

--As far as that particular perspective on Christianity goes, BG was biblically sound. He kept to the basics, and IIRC fairly literal interpretations: Virgin birth, shepherds, Magi, stable, miracles, crucifixion, resurrection, end times, second coming...all fact. IIRC he was pretty literal about Genesis, though I don't remember if he was a 7 day or 7 time periods creationist. (The latter allows for lonnnggg stretches of time, and possibly some form of evolution.) He believed in various forms of angels, and wrote a couple of books about them.

--Other denominations: I don't think he was trying to get anyone to convert to his part of the church spectrum. He sometimes told the audience to go back to their own churches. And, when there's an altar call anywhere, people sometimes go forward not just for a conscious conversion, but because they want to rededicate themselves to God, deal with some guilt and sin, are looking for something, or simply feel pulled. For those of you from other sorts of churches who felt you shouldn't go forward, or didn't understand why people did: it's ok. It's a method that works well for some people. It's about personally choosing which side you're on, who you're going to follow. (Cue Bob Dylan's "You Gotta Serve Somebody", written after his own conversion.)

--Watching at home was sort of answering an altar call. A jolt of God stuff. A quiet time to consider your life, in the company of folks all over. And hear some great music. George Beverly Shea had this amazing, deep, powerful voice. Kind of a handful of Tennessee Ernie Fords and Jim Nabors (other great singers) put together.

--Flaws: He had them But, over all, my main issue was his closeness to political power. (I don't think I heard about some of his other issues until much later.) He never, ever should've used the term "Crusade" for his meetings.

--Tidbits: a) He loved golf so much that he asked his wife if there would be golf in Heaven. Ruth replied "If not that, then something better". :cool": b) He was flying over India, and a Hindu man knelt down and said "you are the holy man of Christianity". BG didn't want him to kneel, and corrected him. (I don't remember details.) c) He was once talking with JFK, and mentioned the Second Coming. JFK asked if his (RCC) church believed that, and BG said yes. JFK said "That's wonderful".

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--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
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Golden Key
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I've complete support for that objection DT.

Is it generalizing to say that he vastly over-simplified Christianity into the "personal relationship with Jesus Christ" thing? (this seems to be one of his slogans). Isn't it nonsense to turn Christianity into such a simplistic thing, as if the individual is the only relevant focus? But perhaps he was merely spouting the excessive individualism that is part of his cultural background? was he never aware of the good and bad in societies, in cultures, in even his own religion? maybe he was blindsighting himself intentionally?

Respectfully: Many, many Christians deeply believe that you have to choose to follow Jesus, choose what side you're going to be on, and commit yourself. Because Heaven/Hell, plus recognizing what God did and being grateful for it.

The individual is NOT "the only relevant focus". But personal choice is believed to be necessary. Often demonstrated by citing John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Signaller:
He preached at our place in 1976 (before my time). A plaque was placed on the (wooden, Edwardian) pulpit to record the event. During a re-ordering in the 90s said pulpit was declared surplus to requirements. Opposition to its loss coalesced around "You can't get rid of that, Billy Graham once preached from it!"

The father of a friend was Mission England director for the west of England in the 1984 campaign, and Billy Graham came to their house for lunch.

They had a visitors' book that one was only eligible to sign if one had stayed the night, but they broke their historic rule in order to get Graham's signature in it.

(As a result, when the Eutychus family got a visitors' book we decreed we would have no such overnight-stay rule, just in case Billy Graham ever came to lunch).

[ 24. February 2018, 06:54: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
He never, ever should've used the term "Crusade" for his meetings.

Probably true. Fact is, I never heard the terminology questioned, and of course it was common parlance among the evangelical community "back in the day". I think most of us were much less aware of the historical and religious connotations of the word 40 years ago!

I mean, as late as 1998 the British Government was promoting Educational Action Zones as " the first 25 EAZs were formally announced as the “a new crusade uniting business, schools, local education authorities and parents" in modernising education within deprived areas.

The mission organisation I was part of was called "Worldwide Evangelisation Crusade" until (I think) the 1980s.

[ 24. February 2018, 08:10: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
RE. integrity - didn't he set up an organisation for evangelists and mission organisations based on having open and transparent accounting?

Yes: the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Stetson
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quote:
--Tidbits: a) He loved golf so much that he asked his wife if there would be golf in Heaven. Ruth replied "If not that, then something better". :cool": b) He was flying over India, and a Hindu man knelt down and said "you are the holy man of Christianity". BG didn't want him to kneel, and corrected him. (I don't remember details.) c) He was once talking with JFK, and mentioned the Second Coming. JFK asked if his (RCC) church believed that, and BG said yes. JFK said "That's wonderful".
And then there was this.

While I take the point about Graham's message being open to all faiths, I am having some difficulty with the idea of the Supreme Governor going forward for an altar call!

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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I find this very hard. For all that's said, Graham's down the line Evangelicalism, its simple "you'll burn in Hell for your sins unless you explicitly convert" message, is something that's done my feelings about God inestimable damage. It underlies every reservation I have about him, and for all I complain that God never makes himself seem real to me, there is a massive reluctance on my side for him to do so, lest he be how the Evangelicals describe him.

So I can't laud Graham. His message was either toxic for me in what it said about God should he be wrong, or is the footsteps of utter despair should he be right.

[ 24. February 2018, 10:31: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:

Is it generalizing to say that he vastly over-simplified Christianity into the "personal relationship with Jesus Christ" thing?

Quote from Luis Palau, heard at Spring Harvest.

"Evangelists are dumb".

He unpacked that, very well. Observing that he preached for decision, that's what he was called to do. So he was almost certainly guilty of oversimplifying. Like most evangelists.

But he knew there was more to it than that. Basically he talked from this well known text.

quote:
11 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up
Evangelists are not necessarily all that good at pastoring, or teaching, or prophesying. In fact, said Palau "most of us aren't". In my experience, that's also true. It's just a different sort of calling.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Schroedinger's cat

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The thing about Graham is that he was my parents generation - getting on for half a century older than me. And he was a product of that age.

His "repent or die" style message actually is appropriate for some people. It works. It is not the whole gospel, but it is a challenge for some people that they need. For others, it is not.

He preached a message that was very much in line with evangelicalism at the time. Which is very different from what it has become. His message and style when I heard him in 84 was very much a standard evangelical message of the time. As such it was thought out, bible based, focussed on the positives.

A story from my university time. I was a fully signed up evangelical, on the more literealist leaning if anything, charismatic, everything that people hate. I was a member of the CU, which was closely aligned to one of the house-church movements, which tended to draw it towards a more conservative theology.

I had a friend from my residence who came out as gay. He had at least some faith too. At one point, he asked me to sign a card to his boyfriend (so it wouldn't be recognised), which I did. What is more, there was no concern, no problems with this. He was a friend, so I helped.

This was the environment I grew up in, this was the environment that Grahams Mission Englan tour was in. It was not condemnatory. It was accepting, and seeking for people to accept the gospel. His rallies were an opportunity to make a decision - something that I was cool with, because it was a YFC rally that I made a committment, something that was not then a solitary event, but around other things happening in my life.

Now, in the last 30 years, an awful lot has changed. Particular elements of the more fundamentalist evangelical church have taken over. Even in my last year at university, I saw soem of the most agressive evangelicals (with some stupid ideas). But I moved into the non-university world, an evangelical church, where I found reasonable evangelicalism in practice.

SO yes, I have been lucky, But the route through evangelicalism that I have followed is one that I think Graham tried to follow. I think he tried to be honest and authentic. I think he was wrong, but he would have discussed with me seriously. It is his heirs (biological and otherwise) who have fucked things up, and made evangelicalism something I now disown. While I have moved partly, the evangelical party has moved far more.

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Baptist Trainfan
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Yes, I can identify with most of that. Thank you.
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Bishops Finger
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Same here. His preaching in the 50s and 60s, undoubtedly, was 'of its time'.

There was also a certain amount of optimism in the mainstream churches round about then. The C of E, for one, enjoyed some modest growth in the 50s and 60s, and I'm sure some of the other denominations could say the same.

Ah, that's the trouble with nostalgia. It's not what it used to be....

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I find this very hard. For all that's said, Graham's down the line Evangelicalism, its simple "you'll burn in Hell for your sins unless you explicitly convert" message, is something that's done my feelings about God inestimable damage.

And yet Graham apparently made comments at a later point that implied a belief in universal salvation. One wonders what this says about his life as an evangelist....

Actually, I get the impression that his greatest success was not so much in evangelism, but rather in encouraging people who were already Christians. He created the opportunity for ordinary folk to leave their little churches and gather together in vast stadiums with others, which must have been a great boost to the morale, especially in places where secularisation had taken hold. He made Christians feel less marginal.

Mind you, I didn't hang around with the sort of Christians who had much interest in Graham, so I never felt personally aggrieved at what he did or didn't do. Some people I know have been critical of the man since his death, but I wouldn't have expected anything else of them.

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mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
# 15978

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I went with a Methodist youth group (hi Svitlana [Smile] ) to see him at Upton Park (West Ham Utd) in 1989. I was already a Christian, I enjoyed it, some of the group who were maybe a bit more marginal about their faith went forward, and as I remember from their experience the local follow-up was good.

As far as I know neither of the two blokes I'm mainly thinking of are in a church at the moment. But a great friend of my Mum was a convert from an earlier BG UK mission. Charismatic (in the old sense) intelligent preachers with integrity - well, yes please.

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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)

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mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
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Oh - double post - did anyone else notice on that list that he was in Eastern-Europe (incl. DDR), USSR and China all through the 80s?! How did that come about?

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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

His "repent or die" style message actually is appropriate for some people. It works. It is not the whole gospel, but it is a challenge for some people that they need. For others, it is not.


This bear of very little brain cannot understand this. If it's true that everyone who doesn't explicitly convert will burn in Hell then it's something everyone needs to hear; if not, then how can it be the right message for anyone?

[ 24. February 2018, 15:35: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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SvitlanaV2
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mark_in_manchester

I get the impression that my circuit was particularly liberal, so I wouldn't have heard about Billy Graham there (and nothing approving, more to the point).

He came to my city when I was a teen, but I have no memory of it. Although I was still part of my church's Sunday school, I didn't belong to a Methodist youth group as such. A Methodist church up the road had a youth club, but I only knew of it because some non-Methodist friends went along. I can't imagine either church encouraging young people to see Billy Graham.

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Stetson
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quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
Oh - double post - did anyone else notice on that list that he was in Eastern-Europe (incl. DDR), USSR and China all through the 80s?! How did that come about?

I'm not sure, but he also went to the DPRK a few years later.

Despite the headline, that article doesn't really tell us "how" his visit to a hardcore atheist dictatorship came about. My guess would be, there was some backroom politicking going on, ie. someone in Washington thought he should go there, and the North Koreans thought it was somehow in their interest to let him in.

Plus, apparently, Ruth Graham had been a missionary in what is now North Korea, so maybe she had some influence as well. And the ruling family are ancestrally Christian, of the American evangelical variety, so that might have played a role.

I'm pretty sure he was preaching to a very select audience anyway, not the sort of people who would likely abandon the ruling philosophy after hearing one good sermen.

[ 24. February 2018, 15:50: Message edited by: Stetson ]

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Stetson
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Apparently, this is the church where Graham preached in North Korea. Possibly just a show church, but according to that, they do make some attempt at appearing politically independent.

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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Schroedinger's cat

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# 64

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

His "repent or die" style message actually is appropriate for some people. It works. It is not the whole gospel, but it is a challenge for some people that they need. For others, it is not.


This bear of very little brain cannot understand this. If it's true that everyone who doesn't explicitly convert will burn in Hell then it's something everyone needs to hear; if not, then how can it be the right message for anyone?
Because it is a very blunt version of the truth. It isn't true as it stands, but it is true that God calls us to change, and this is a point of making that clear.

What it doesnt mean is "this is your only chance - follow this route or die". It doesn;t mean an "exlicit conversion in this way", but it does mean that an individual needs to rethink their life.

It is a bit like the reports I might give to management. "We need to do this now". We may not need to do it now, and there may be other options and choices, but management need to make a decision, and this will drive that.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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It doesn't mean what it says? How are people to know what it does mean then?

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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"Repent or die" would be ridiculous if it doesn't harmfully frighten people into marching up the sawdust trail of Jesus tears and love in the evening and then like sobered up drunks, asking what happened the next morning and worrying.

I think it is quite harmful. Particularly when it is proffered in support of status quo societies, and as my father once said, in Billy's confusion of the American dream with proper understanding of history and that there aren't any special and particularly holy countries. He was a refugee from the Hitler madness, from where his perspective of societies as the appropriate unit of analysis for change is derived.

Is the Billy type of message the ultimate consumer good? Where vendors play on fears and anxieties? I think it is.

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Plus, apparently, Ruth Graham had been a missionary in what is now North Korea, so maybe she had some influence as well.

Ruth was never a missionary to Korea. Her parents were medical missionaries to China from 1919–1940 or 41. Ruth was born and raised there, but she was not a missionary as an adult. He father, though, remained active in the mission work of the Presbyterian Church and undoubtedly had Korean connections.

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
--Other denominations: I don't think he was trying to get anyone to convert to his part of the church spectrum.

Ruth never became a Baptist, though admittedly she, and the congregation of which she was a member, were at the very conservative end of what is now the PC(USA). That congregation (which left the PC(USA) a few years ago) was very slow to accept the idea of female elders. When they did decide to elect and ordain a woman, the woman was a Ruth Bell Graham.

I never went to one of Billy Graham's crusades/events. If I ever heard him preach, it was when I was young enough that any significance was lost on me. I’ll admit I did not like his preaching style at all, either when I was young or once I became an adult. It just didn’t resonate with me.

But I had great respect for him as a person. I didn’t always share his views, but I appreciated the integrity with which he held them, and in some instances changed them, and I appreciated his willingness to acknowledge and learn from his mistakes. He was not perfect. He was human, like the rest of, with missteps, contradictions and, I think, growth, both with regard to who he was publicly and who he was in private. He had a humility that I wish was more common in others who have come after him. In his mind, it really wasn’t about him.

His death has been front-page news here in North Carolina all week, where flags have been flying at half-staff. For those of us with deep roots in Montreat, where he lived and died (a place that’s somewhat difficult to explain to those not familiar with it), it's the person more than the preacher who’ll be remembered.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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SvitlanaV2
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Karl: Liberal Backslider

People obviously become Christians for different reasons.

It's clear that some are engaged by the idea of a great cosmic battle between good and evil, with God as the great Judge over all. For them, there won't be a conversion unless they believe that the whole thing really matters. They won't join a church just to gain access to a friendly community, or to enjoy highly trained musicians, or to lend their expertise to some church-based social justice programme, even if these outcomes eventually become important to them.

That doesn't necessarily indicate an emphasis on hell, does it? Maybe theologically, if not rhetorically. TBH I find it hard to believe that Graham would have made any headway in Europe with hell fire preaching. Did he really take that stuff to London, Paris and Berlin?? Or did he save it for people and places that were used to it?

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Karl: Liberal Backslider

People obviously become Christians for different reasons.

It's clear that some are engaged by the idea of a great cosmic battle between good and evil, with God as the great Judge over all. For them, there won't be a conversion unless they believe that the whole thing really matters. They won't join a church just to gain access to a friendly community, or to enjoy highly trained musicians, or to lend their expertise to some church-based social justice programme, even if these outcomes eventually become important to them.

So we spin them an angry God who's going to squash them if they don't swap sides line, regardless of whether it's true?

quote:

That doesn't necessarily indicate an emphasis on hell, does it? Maybe theologically, if not rhetorically. TBH I find it hard to believe that Graham would have made any headway in Europe with hell fire preaching. Did he really take that stuff to London, Paris and Berlin?? Or did he save it for people and places that were used to it?

Why not? It was the basic of every evangelist I ever heard - "you deserve to and will go to Hell unless you convert".

[ 24. February 2018, 20:36: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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