|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: What puts you off from setting foot inside a church?
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Still might be worth a try. You might be pleasantly surprised ...
I doubt it, but ...
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
.....and you might have the opportunity to point out to them that better publicity would be a Good Thing.
IJ
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
Too many church noticeboards give inaccurate and/or out of date information anyway. Or not enough, like 'Morning Service' - that could mean anything.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe: Meeting in a schoolhouse or vacant office or any place else other than a proper church
Having worshiped in a living room, City Council chambers,
storage room of a jail, and a dinning hall I can assure you these were all proper churches. Altar on rollers included.
Posts: 2641 | From: Third planet from the sun. USA | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Ah, but does it?
Sipech has already indicated what various descriptors are code for ... So 'Morning Service' is equally coded for those in the know ...
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
Our Place's noticeboards give info re Father F***wit, Readers, and Churchwardens, also times of regular services (1030am Parish Mass etc.). These are permanent, albeit replaced/updated as required e.g. on change of personnel.
Until I was no longer able to do so*, I put up further notices as applicable for special services or activities, using really brightly-coloured paper, so that they could be easily spotted. All three noticeboards are close to the road/pavements, and readily legible to passers-by.
IJ
*and no-one else seems to have had the gumption to carry this on in my absence* ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Until I was no longer able to do so*, I put up further notices as applicable for special services or activities, using really brightly-coloured paper, so that they could be easily spotted. All three noticeboards are close to the road/pavements, and readily legible to passers-by.
IJ
*and no-one else seems to have had the gumption to carry this on in my absence*
When I moved some years ago to live. With son and DIL on Sydney's North Shore, I was looking for somewhere to attend.
About five minutes down the hill towards next suburb was a church an I thought I would start my enquiries there.
Yes, there was a notice board but it took me about 15 minutes searching to find it. It was on highway side, next to footpath. However, it was almost completely obscured by creepers and a shrub and when I moved that, I could see the information was clearly several years out of date.
I did not even try any further. I found it very unwelcoming and certainly uninformative.
--------------------
Buy a bale. Help our Aussie rural communities and farmers. Another great cause needing support The High Country Patrol.
Posts: 9745 | From: girt by sea | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Ah, but does it?
Sipech has already indicated what various descriptors are code for ... So 'Morning Service' is equally coded for those in the know ...
Actually that's not quite true. 'Morning Worship' has a connotation beyond the literal; 'Morning Service' or 'Sunday Service' is often just a place filler. One church I attend frequently has the Eucharist as the invariable main service but the noticeboard says the latter.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Ok, yes, you're right. It's 'Morning Worship' rather than 'Morning Service' that is most encrypted.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
As a trivia-chasing aside to the pew debate, many if not most of the anglo-catholic churches that were built at the turn of the 19/20 centuries seemed to have spurned pews from the start, adopting rush-seated chairs on parquet floors. In England at any rate. And even where chairs were not used, light (and easily moveable benches) often took the place of fixed pews.
Can anybody give an example of an anglo-catholic church, which has always been in that tradition, where fixed pews have been the norm? I can think of one but am hard pushed to identify another.
The Anglo-catholic church I know well had exactly that rush-seated chair seating originally, now replaced with connected chairs. However English Heritage suggested the pews should be returned when they visited at one point - as they listed it to Grade II*
--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
As a trivia-chasing aside to the pew debate, many if not most of the anglo-catholic churches that were built at the turn of the 19/20 centuries seemed to have spurned pews from the start, adopting rush-seated chairs on parquet floors. In England at any rate. And even where chairs were not used, light (and easily moveable benches) often took the place of fixed pews.
Can anybody give an example of an anglo-catholic church, which has always been in that tradition, where fixed pews have been the norm? I can think of one but am hard pushed to identify another.
The Anglo-catholic church I know well had exactly that rush-seated chair seating originally, now replaced with connected chairs. However English Heritage suggested the pews should be returned when they visited at one point - as they listed it to Grade II*
I had almost forgotten... My parents' small church had those rush chairs, generally known as 'back breakers'.
--------------------
Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)
Posts: 905 | From: On the traditional lands of the Six Nations. | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
|
Posted
Speaking as an organist (!) I feel bound to point out that I spend every service sitting on a backless bench with no support for arms, feet or back...
On the subject of noticeboards: IMO churches should have one nearest the road listing service times, church office/ vicar 'phone number and nothing else. Noticeboards in the porch or directly outside the door are the place for other events or going into greater detail. And there should be someone responsible for all boards to ensure they are tidy and the information on them is relevant.
--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
Something I find very annoying are intrusive and unnecessary directions, eg: “The service starts on page one of the service book”. In fact the service has already started with an opening hymn and you wouldn’t start on page five, would you?
I know it will be said this is to help those unfamiliar with the service but in many cases I expect it has the opposite effect – it makes newcomers think they should be doing something in particular and make them self-conscious they will get it wrong.
But it certainly wouldn't put me off from attending the church if it was a local celebration of mass.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Felafool:
Leorning Cniht wrote
quote:
So I completely disagree that they are an indicator of an "inability to adapt". There are some of those, of course - but there are some pretty dogmatic and inflexible chair churches, too (it's just a slightly different dogma). Perhaps one dog sits more comfortably with you than the other.
Good point, well made - the one good thing about pews that has been put forward. If that was suggested as a convincing reason to keep pews, then I might be sympathetic. It's just that there are other ways to drive a toy racing car in church and stay close to Mum/Dad.
But then again, do you/will you take your children to cinemas and ask for a pew?
Going to church like watching a film? That's a rather consumer view of church, isn't it, somewhat at odds with what Angloid said, and you endorsed upthread?
We have pews and chairs at our place: what is used in any week rather depends on what else the church has been used for. I quite like pews: you can spread out- coat, books, and so on; and I find a pew, rather than a chair, in front of you is easier to kneel against*. Plus when my back hads been playing up, a wooden pew is just the thing to lie down on.
*But then, I suppose kneeling's a sign of inability to engage with contemporary culture too, isn't it, as you wouldn't do it at the pictures.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Something I find very annoying are intrusive and unnecessary directions, eg: “The service starts on page one of the service book”. In fact the service has already started with an opening hymn and you wouldn’t start on page five, would you?
You obviously never used the ASB or Common Worship communion books.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Something I find very annoying are intrusive and unnecessary directions, eg: “The service starts on page one of the service book”. In fact the service has already started with an opening hymn and you wouldn’t start on page five, would you?
You obviously never used the ASB or Common Worship communion books.
Also there could be multiple forms or versions of the service, starting, obviously, on different pages.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Felafool:
Leorning Cniht wrote
quote:
So I completely disagree that they are an indicator of an "inability to adapt". There are some of those, of course - but there are some pretty dogmatic and inflexible chair churches, too (it's just a slightly different dogma). Perhaps one dog sits more comfortably with you than the other.
Good point, well made - the one good thing about pews that has been put forward. If that was suggested as a convincing reason to keep pews, then I might be sympathetic. It's just that there are other ways to drive a toy racing car in church and stay close to Mum/Dad.
But then again, do you/will you take your children to cinemas and ask for a pew?
Would you take your children to cinemas and demand they change the seating arrangements because you find them objectionable? Of all the reasons not to go to church, this is definitely in the "you have got to be kidding me" bucket.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Felafool
Shipmate
# 270
|
Posted
Mousethief wrote
quote:
Would you take your children to cinemas and demand they change the seating arrangements because you find them objectionable?
No, but I might never darken the doors of that cinema again, which is the point of the OP.
And judging by the progress made in cinema seating over the years, you might consider that a significant amount of time and money is invested in the ideal seating design and layout for the activity that is expected in a cinema, and considering the comfort of the customer. You want them to come, so give them an experience that might bring them back. Heck, there are even cuddle seats available in some places. (I predict some wags will respond to that last bit.)
All I'm saying is that IMHO pews do not readily or comfortably facilitate many of the activities that go on in the churches I would like to be part of. With the exception of the point made about driving toy cars close to one's parents, there has been no further positive reason given for the pew's superiority. If you were building a place for Christian worship today, why include pews?
BTW I'm also conscious that this is a 'developed world problem'. I have had the joy and privilege of worshipping in mud huts with solid earth benches where your knees are tucked up around your ears when you sit down (if you are built like me). But again, as the OP asked, in my own habitat pews would put me off from setting foot (or butt) inside a church on any basis other than as a visitor. Again, I'm obviously that shallow.
I may butt out now, I feel like my pew view has taken a life of its own in a thread that is about more than just pews.
Anyone got a cuddle seat? ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
--------------------
I don't care if the glass is half full or half empty - I ordered a cheeseburger.
Posts: 265 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Thing is, there are only so many variations on church seating ... You either have pews, rush-seated chairs, plastic bucket chairs or conference style seating - or perhaps in some quarters, bean bags and scatter cushions.
I knew of a Vineyard church that went in for the latter - together with coffee, pastries and the Sunday papers ...
Why bother? Why not simply go to a cafe or a boozer to hang out with your mates?
I can understand people having a go at pews, but I can't think of any form of seating that'd make me go, 'Goodness me! I must visit THAT church ...'
But then, I'm not Felafool ...
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Felafool
Shipmate
# 270
|
Posted
Forms of seating wouldn't stir up a longing to visit, but some forms just might deter me - I'd rather have pews than bean bags, I can never get out of a bean bag with any form of decorum.
--------------------
I don't care if the glass is half full or half empty - I ordered a cheeseburger.
Posts: 265 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
No-one seems to have mentioned the sort of modern pseudo-pew or bench with the qualities of the traditional pew, but which can be stacked/moved around much more easily:
http://www.treskechurchfurniture.co.uk/c/bespoke-stacking-church-benches
Usual disclaimer applies, but ISTM that these combine the best of both worlds. Not cheap, though, which is something the poor Felafools of this world might not take into account, when reviling churches for their unwillingness to 'adapt' (whatever that might mean).
IJ
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
On the subject of noticeboards: IMO churches should have one nearest the road listing service times, church office/ vicar 'phone number and nothing else.
And, in this day and age, website address.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Ok, I'm intrigued as to exactly what kind of seating arrangements Felafool might favour ... Sofas? Armchairs? Cinema seats?
There are churches which meet in cinemas or which have taken over old cinema buildings ... And in the USAit would seem that many mega-churches have plush seating of that kind, judging from photos I've seen.
I'd be interested in what seating Felafool would favour rather than what would put him off.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Felafool:
Mousethief wrote
quote:
Would you take your children to cinemas and demand they change the seating arrangements because you find them objectionable?
No, but I might never darken the doors of that cinema again, which is the point of the OP.
See, it seems to me that someone has reasons for not going to church, but either doesn't know what they are or will not admit them to themself, so they cast around for something to be upset with, and settle on pews. They're butt-hurt, just not in the way they think they are. Otherwise this kind of bizarre reaction to a form of seating just doesn't makes sense in the slightest.
Of course the Orthodox obviate this problem by making do without pews or folding chairs or whatever. We stand.
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
No-one seems to have mentioned the sort of modern pseudo-pew or bench with the qualities of the traditional pew, but which can be stacked/moved around much more easily:
http://www.treskechurchfurniture.co.uk/c/bespoke-stacking-church-benches
Usual disclaimer applies, but ISTM that these combine the best of both worlds. Not cheap, though, which is something the poor Felafools of this world might not take into account, when reviling churches for their unwillingness to 'adapt' (whatever that might mean).
These are evil. They are flat. Good pews are sculpted for the natural shape of the human rump.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
|
Posted
I've been to Crete twice and in all the Greek Orthodox churches I've been to there they all sit on chairs in rows. Like normal churches.
St Titus, Heraklion, Crete
--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I've been to Crete twice and in all the Greek Orthodox churches I've been to there they all sit on chairs in rows. Like normal churches.
St Titus, Heraklion, Crete
That's Greeks.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
bib
Shipmate
# 13074
|
Posted
I have seen notices outside churches which advertise eg 10am John Smith, and no other details are given. I presume John Smith is the preacher and that we are not called to worship him. I certainly would not go to a church that didn't list what the service was. However, if I do venture into a church I would leave very quickly if there were drums and guitars and a large screen obstructing the chancel. I also left a church where the minister told me that they didn't bother with anyone over the age of 40 as only the young mattered.
--------------------
"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I can understand people having a go at pews, but I can't think of any form of seating that'd make me go, 'Goodness me! I must visit THAT church ...'
Jacuzzis.
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I have seen notices outside churches which advertise eg 10am John Smith, and no other details are given. I presume John Smith is the preacher and that we are not called to worship him. I certainly would not go to a church that didn't list what the service was. However, if I do venture into a church I would leave very quickly if there were drums and guitars and a large screen obstructing the chancel. I also left a church where the minister told me that they didn't bother with anyone over the age of 40 as only the young mattered.
Ghee, have you been to my (almost former) church? Tick for screen (a really ugly monstrosity), drums and guitars and a strategic plan that doesn't include a demographic past 45years. Sadly, 2/3 of the congregation would be 55+, so the ministry which is focused on the 25-35 age group and their offspring is only to a tiny portion of the congregation.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I can understand people having a go at pews, but I can't think of any form of seating that'd make me go, 'Goodness me! I must visit THAT church ...'
Jacuzzis.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Ha ha ha ... Jacuzzis it is ...
On the Greeks and chairs/pews ... Yes, they also have harmoniums ... Something the other Orthodox would steer clear of.
Mind you, I've seen fiery online debates among the Orthodox about clerical dress. Some of the Antiochian Orthodox clergy in the US have taken to wearing suits rather than cassocks in public. Is outrage.
Pews? Outrage.
Harmoniums? Outrage.
Suits ....
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I have seen notices outside churches which advertise eg 10am John Smith, and no other details are given
As you say, it's quite common amongst nonconformist churches which stress the preaching tradition. It's parodied by John Betjeman in his poem "Beside the Seaside":
So evening sunlight shows us Sandy Cove
The same as last year and the year before.
Still on the brick front of the Baptist Church
SIX-THIRTY. Preacher: Mr. Pentecost,
All visitors are welcomed. ,,,
But I've always found it a strange notion - what does it mean to the passer-by? We, however, do promulgate the service's theme each week.
quote:
I would leave very quickly if there were drums and guitars and a large screen obstructing the chancel.
I know of a died-in-the-wool URC man who, on holiday, went to the local chapel to find exactly this set-up. He said, "I couldn't very well leave, and they were very nice people. But, as I was leaving, I turned round to check on the noticeboard that they were really were URC. And, when I saw that they were, I thought, 'They really ought to have put up a health warning'!"
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Lifting ourselves off our butts and getting back to the OP ...
What are those of us who are broadly Nicene and orthodox (small o) saying about churches that might also fit that criteria but which diverge in some way from what might be considered to be 'the norm'?
(I chuckled at Mudfrog's comment about Orthodox as opposed to 'normal' churches - which I'm sure will have been tongue-in-cheek - as Orthodoxy is the 'norm' in Crete and so on ...)
But in terms of 'Western' churches, other than pews and plexiglas drum-kit installations, what would be deal breakers in terms of:
1. A visit out of curiosity or fraternal fraternisation as it were ...
2. More regular engagement/attendance?
So, for instance, I'd be happy to attend a Seventh Day Adventist service, just to say 'hi' to people and see what they got up to - but I wouldn't make a regular habit of doing such a thing ...
From the OP it sounded to me that a belief in some kind of Real Presence in the eucharist would put Sipech off even visiting an RC or other highly sacramentalised setting ...
I find that strange, although perhaps at one time I'd have taken a similar line. I've attended RC masses and plenty of Orthodox services but feel uncomfortable with some of the stuff at the stratospheric end ...
I've attended an RC Exposition and Benediction and that had my Protestant neurons buzzing and fizzing and short-circuiting ....
Although I understand the theology and the 'idea' behind it.
That wouldn't stop me attending an RC service again, though, any more than stuff I'm uncomfortable with on the Protestant side would deter me from visiting various Protestant churches, even if they'd deter me from closer involvement and engagement in some instances.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Morgan
Shipmate
# 15372
|
Posted
Pews vs chairs seems a trivial issue. Our parish has 2 churches, one with pews and one with chairs. Both have advantages and disadvantages. I am comfortable enough in either and neither arrangement would put me off worshiping there.
However, I will never volunteer for the cleaning roster in Chair Church. Impossible to vacuum properly under and between them and I am too old to move dozens of chairs in order to vacuum the floor and then have to replace them all. Pews are much easier to vacuum between and I don't have to move them.
Posts: 111 | From: Canberra | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
|
Posted
Not exactly “wouldn’t set foot inside”, but certainly “wouldn’t go back a second time”. A few years ago I was visiting a French town with a famous cathedral. It was Easter weekend and despite not being RC, I decided to go to Mass on Easter morning, expecting a beautiful and edifying experience.
Two reasons I would never, ever go back, except to admire the architecture:
First up, the sound system was lousy and I could hardly make out a word the venerable bishop said. Possibly he preached an excellent homily but I literally had no idea what he was talking about. I felt like I was back in the Dark Ages when the mysteries of the Mass were off limits to the vulgar people.
Second, there was no singing to speak of. The choir sang. Sort of. The congregation didn’t even make the effort to mumble along. I had never realised until then but communal singing is a non-negotiable part of church for me. As I didn’t know the hymns, I couldn’t sing along either because there wasn’t enough musical support to follow (I have a good ear, and can usually pick up a hymn after a stanza or two), and I found the whole thing thoroughly dispiriting.
Between the talk I couldn’t hear and the songs that I couldn’t sing, I left feeling utterly un-nourished.
--------------------
Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
I've heard that congregational singing in Polish RC churches is something else ...
But generally the RCs don't tend to sing with a great deal of gusto, if they sing at all.
Orthodox churches vary to the extent that the congregation join in the singing. I've been to some services where the congregations participate along with the choir, others where their only vocal response is in the Creed and the Lord's Prayer - the rest of the time they cross themselves at appropriate moments or else light candles and wander about doing whatever it is they do ...
Congregational singing in Protestant churches is a relatively recent innovation in historical terms - there wasn't a great deal of it in Presbyterian and Anglican churches - other than metrical Psalms - until the 18th century and the real boom in congregational singing came in the 19th century after the effects of the pietistic and Methodist revivals filtered through into the 'mainstream' ...
There are moves within Orthodoxy at the moment to revise some hymnody and aspects of congregational participation - so watch this space ... in 500 years time ...
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Thinking about it, I once heard some delightful congregational singing emanating from a side-chapel in a Breton cathedral ... but this was on a week-day and it was a special service of some kind.
What struck me was that those involved weren't fervent young charismatics or anything but what looked to be bog-standard middle-aged or elderly Bretons. Whatever was going on, it showed that French RCs can sing when they put their minds to it.
Here in blighty, a late and much lamented RC parish priest who stayed around after his retirement would often bob into one of the Anglican parishes because he said he liked to hear the Psalms chanted properly and also because he preferred the congregational singing there to how the RCs did it at his own parish ...
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
... On the Greeks and chairs/pews ... Yes, they also have harmoniums ... Something the other Orthodox would steer clear of.
Mind you, I've seen fiery online debates among the Orthodox about clerical dress. Some of the Antiochian Orthodox clergy in the US have taken to wearing suits rather than cassocks in public. Is outrage.
Pews? Outrage.
Harmoniums? Outrage.
Suits ....
And I've seen Orthodox priests with hair cuts and trimmed beards. Is definitely Outrage.
I think they might have been Roumanian.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Trimmed beards and hair-cuts are becoming more common across all Orthodox jurisdictions in the 'diaspora' and among convert clergy, from what I can gather.
You still see some plenitude, though, in terms of facial hirsuteness and ponytails ...
I've teased Orthodox friends that they need the local barber as well as Occam's Razor ...
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
The congregation didn’t even make the effort to mumble along. I had never realised until then but communal singing is a non-negotiable part of church for me.
I really hate that as well. I sing in a choir, but even if I know the hymns I find it impossible being the sole voice in the congregation, or a section of the congregation. One either sings out which seems a bit primadonnaish (and high risk for wrong notes), or one sings a bit sotto-voce which I find makes me waver all over the place and wish I wasn't singing... or just goes quiet along with the rest of them.
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I've been to Crete twice and in all the Greek Orthodox churches I've been to there they all sit on chairs in rows. Like normal churches.
St Titus, Heraklion, Crete
That's Greeks.
Yes, the original Orthodox ones.
--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Felafool
Shipmate
# 270
|
Posted
Gamaliel wrote
quote:
Ok, I'm intrigued as to exactly what kind of seating arrangements Felafool might favour ... Sofas? Armchairs? Cinema seats?
I'm going to duck this one because I'm so shallow. I know what I don't like, but can be happy with a lot of other options. More important to me is fitness for purpose, which means the following (at the risk of repeating myself):
Can these seats be used in a variety of ways for different activities that might allow for a variety of worship activities?
Do they help the sense of community and participation where layout can play an important part? (cf the RC cathedral in Liverpool has pews arranged in circular fashion around a central altar)
Do they convey a sense of adaptability and engagement with surrounding culture, or are they giving out an unhelpful message (to some like me)?
Are they comfortable? This is subjective, of course. If I'm expected to sit and listen, then the same seat can be uncomfortable for 5 minutes, or un-noticed for an hour, depending on the listening experience. I have been in both these situations many times on many different seats!
Personally, I need lots of legroom, preferring a cushioned seat and a fairly high back. First class airline seats are not bad, although I think the arm rests should be removable (and they are necessarily fixed to the floor).
I go to church to participate in worship with, and identify with, a Christian community. The physical layout is important to me for this, as it is also for theological reasons which have already been touched on in other posts. Seating is part of this, and I find pews hinder a sense of community and participative worship
Jacuzzis are a nice idea, but I would then need to become an anabaptist.
To sum up, I'm not that fussy - just no pews, please!
--------------------
I don't care if the glass is half full or half empty - I ordered a cheeseburger.
Posts: 265 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
At the risk of getting shot at from all sides ... some folks might say the same thing about organists
Ouch! Help! Yikes! Aargh! Stop it! That hurts!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
That reminds me of a comment about organists I heard attributed to a Welsh archdeacon ...
Can't remember all the details but it had something to do with a knife between the shoulder-blades ...
Meanwhile, @Mudfrog, I rather think the Orthodox in Palestine, Syria and parts of Asia Minor would lay claim to being Orthodox before the Greeks.
So no, the Greeks couldn't claim to be the 'original' Orthodox ...
Besides, I seem to remember reading somewhere that they'd picked up their penchant for pews and harmoniums from the delinquent and nefarious West ...
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
That reminds me of a comment about organists I heard attributed to a Welsh archdeacon ...
Can't remember all the details but it had something to do with a knife between the shoulder-blades ...
It's clearly safer for the clergy if the organist sits up in a West Gallery or a Loft rather than at a stool in the Chancel, then?
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
A few people have mentioned drum kits surrounded by perspex - what's the issue here?
I mean, you have to keep the drummer penned in somehow ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Inasmuch as there's a serious question in there (not much, I know), if you have a worship band including a drum kit in most normal church venues, something needs to be done to muffle the percussion to keep everything in balance at an acceptable volume level.
As far as I'm concerned the jury's out on a drum kit behind perspex, but I would certainly struggle to worship in a context where the drum kit is there and no perspex.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
Of course that is true. But (!tangent alert!) I do sometimes think that some groups use a quite disproportionate (and messy!) amount of sound equipment for what is just a simple set-up in a small local church.
As a general principle, shouldn't all church musicians of whatever hue do all they can to turn worshippers' attention to the devotion of God, and strive to not draw attention to themselves?
[ 21. November 2016, 16:36: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
Yes, as long as the clergy do the same.
An off-put for me is a service which really should be billed as 'The Father F***wit Show', or 'Look How Holy I Am'....
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
IJ
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
